fridays we get donuts and bagels and shit. last night i got high for the first time in over a month. just for shits and giggles. tonight i will be alone. for a week, A. will be out of town. i'm writing a song about a guy who finds out his girl is a clown. i am a capitalist. i've been thinking a lot about male/female differences lately. I was wondering if anyone can provide me with a unemotional discussion about women. specifically, i'm looking for women to discuss this. i will acknowledge right away that I am not talking about every single woman. just in general. first issue: it seems like women flip out periodically. do we men do this also, and just not notice? i'm talking about a span of several days to a week where logic is void, emotions run high, bizarre behavior ensues. this is not necessary insync with an obvious hormonal cycle. do women realize that most men see this? do women realize that this occurs? do women feel that this is a justified condition? obviously, i'm not looking for what all women think. i'm looking for ideas from the highly gifted, intelligent women who pass through this ip. of course, men can join but some focus should remain. and trace: i don't want to see a single "shit, i agree with nate again"

eating chocolate donuts and coffee is gonna give you the shits quicker then drinking a tijuana mud shake. i'd start clenching those buttcheeks right now. that'll also come in handy when all the women around here start tryin' to break a foot up your ass. good luck, spanky.

i haven't been in high in a week, im going to get the goods to make "space brownies" for tomorrows Sunset Junction. i can vouch that I go through this phase you are referring to. Once about every two weeks, I go completely nuts, nearly jeopardize my marriage, piss her off entirely and say shit i don't mean. She's the one who seems to keep a level head.

shit blindswine, don't underestimate the ability of the women of sorabji to engage in a rational discussion.

most of the women of sorabji can engage in a more rational discussion then some men of sorajbi

Trace, why do you lob these softballs out there? It's like pitching a beachball to Mark McGwire. I'm not even going to try.

being rational and breaking your foot up somebody's ass are by no means mutually exclusive. anyway, whatever. this is nothing but a sausage party so far. i bet all the women are out back charging up their cattle prods.

*bending over*

I was going to put my 2 cents in,but you said you wanted to hear from highly gifted, intelligent women.

You, Dogie, are no Mark McGwire.

? i got some gold fish, a big tub and slingshot, wanna come over? J, speak!!!!!!!!!!!!!

nate- all my psychotic other-worldly, monster-headed freakout has a hell of a lot to do with obvious hormonal changes..... i do realize that people can sense it when i'm acting out my cerberus side (it's so ugly), mainly my partner (when i had one), at whom it was directed. i think i keep it well-hidden from people who are not close to me. i usually wouldn't know i was such a mess until jacob mentioned it.... he was always so awesome. he made up a whole checklist of stuff to do when i was feeling shitty.....like this: "oh mavis! you are being funny! why are you so sad? did you take a bath? did you smoke some weed? did you eat some nice dinner? did you play with the kitties?" and if i hadn't done all those things, i was ordered to. by the time i finished the checklist, i was back to my awesome self... but this doesn't help you at all, does it?

I think it is hormonal,I get real horny right before Aunt Flo comes,when she's here,I hold water,Little Debbie chocolate brownies become my best friend,I cry easily,and I'm (if possible) even crankier than usual.I tend to get upset over small things that usually wouldn't bother me.I'm just a nervous wreck,then my period is over,and I'm still a nervous wreck,but nicer.

oh yeah, i forgot to add that. superduperbendmeoverfuckmehorny----the week before and the week after. god help me

so basically it is that hormone thing. we already know that patrick has problems with that because of that breast thing. anyway. i have more issues, but no time to present the next at the moment.

ive got great tits motherfucker!!!!

It's not necessarily a hormone thing. My uncle and my brother are famous for their headspinning moodswings. They can happen in mid-sentence. It's quite amazing. Both of them are also prone to depression. Statistics show that women experience depression more often than men (though this may be because women are more likely to report depression than men). You say women are moodier than men. There you go: correlation among moodiness, depression, and gender. Or it could be that people expect women to be cheerful all the time. Women displaying negative emotions seems noteworthy because it's unexpected. Case in point: no one makes any mention of my brother and his furrowed brow, but if I or my mother don't have smiles on our faces, then we get to hear, "what's the matter? Is something wrong?" until we snap, "I'm fine, all right, leave me alone!" People also leave men alone more than women.

Whoops, did I just proclaim myself to be highly gifted and intelligent? I must humble myself.

You are highly gifted and intelligent.No humbleing for you.

i'm not talking about moody. i'm talking irrational.

Thanks, J :) I had another thought. I actually read "Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus" recently -- which, while it is nothing groundbreaking and does stereotype men and women an awful lot, has some good metaphors. John Gray says men are like waves and women are like wells. Men get very close to their loved one and then pull back and then get close. Women overflow with affection and then dry out and then fill up. Both movements (forward/back and up/down) result in unpleasantness on the part of the back/down person and unhappiness on the part of the partner. So both genders can be said to have their mood swings. And I think the women who throw logic out the window when they pick arguments with you are the ones who have been taught to argue that way. (Or they've been taught - through experience or whatever - that it works.) I argue with logic, and so does my mother. Come to think of it, the two of us aren't very moody, either. I used to be, but then I also used to be depressed. So...

Irrational to *you*, Nate, maybe. It could be that the woman sees things very differently than you, has different priorities and goals, and is acting according to her own logic. Margaret Atwood has a short essay/story-type thing that talks about men and Aloneness. She says men like to think that they're Alone -- no one is like them, no one understands them, etc. She says women are connected to everything, hear everything speaking to them, etc. In the story, the man asks the woman if she ever feels Alone, and she doesn't know how to answer because all these different voices and things are rattling around in her head. So she just offers the man a cup of tea, and which makes him feel justified for feeling Alone. Whoa, was that irrational of me to bring that up? Point was, maybe men and women experience life very differently and it's not for one gender to criticize the behavior of the other. I read a great book called "The Mismeasure of Women: why women are not the inferior, superior, or opposite sex" by Carol Tavris. Here's a synopsis and some reviews. You might want to read it. I have to go shuck corn now.

But what is irrational, Nate? I'm going to generalise here like holy hell. Men just clothe their irrationality in repression. Right from being told "boys don't cry" when they fell outta the tree house and landed on their butt. Women are socialised to be more open about their emotions which can lead to the misleading conclusion that we're irrational. We're all driven by our emotions and therefore irrational by our very nature. You can make some argument that women are more driven by their hormones, yes. But if I had an inch for every man who was driven by their penis, I'd be sitting on Saturn.

yeah i don't think this is something than can be generalized by sexes. i was raised spoiled, by maternal figures almost exclusively, and a seemingly only child. My siblings are far older than me. Im a tyrant when i dont get what i want, im selfish and im moody. Im also negative and can be quite mean, my mom was one of the most negative women in the world. I think almost all of this is nurture, not nature. My mom's first husband left when he came out of the closet, and her second, my dad went nuts and screwed around left her with three kids. To say she was bitter is an understatement. To say this didnt have a terrible effect on me and my moodiness is an understatement. if you give any creedance to astrology and the chinese zodiac, i have two of the "worst" signs, scorpio and tiger..... On the brightside im usually polite, have nice hair and i make my own bed. ok sorry , trying to stay focused......

Being gifted and intelligent, I'll add my commentary. I've been flipping out irrationally for the past two days. I think it's because I keep having asthma attacks, and I don't like not being in control. I hit myself in the eye with a box at work today, and and it really hurts. My eye is all swollen and stuff. Helluv grotty. I'm closing it right now because it's more confortable. Anyway. I think that everyone flips out, but with some of us it's more noticeable. With me, part of it an attention thing. I want people to pay attention to me, _ now_, and so my flipping out becomes noticeable. Argh. Right now I'm going to flip out because my eye really hurts and I wanna cry.

see, everyone has rationalized the supposed irrational behavior. so, this isn't what i'm speaking of. it is hard to explain how women freak out. it happens. men sense it, are reprocussed by it, and know it exists- but cannot explain it. perhaps it is because our language is designed to speak about the bad in men, not the bad in women. women are the communicators, women shape the tongue. (alternately, perhaps the language is designed to speak about the things men deem important- but then, really, we've pulled the wool over our own eyes.) this kind of brings me around to my second question, which no woman i've ever brought it up to can consider logically. infact, the reactions i receive bespeak of a great conspiracy, or, paranoia aside, my own terrible delivery. why is it, then, that women claim oppression when women dictate society? men are puppets by nature, and it is very easy for a woman to find the hole by which she can reach in and control the head. achilles had his ankle, mankind has his penis. we are slaves to our penises, we are told, but in truth we are slaves to those who take hold of our penises and use them to control us. so on this basic foundation, women have ruled the world in secrecy. the best part is that we are oblivious to this control. women tell men that they have the power, and men believe it. men everywhere believe it. look at how many men are CEOs and the women cry Unfair! but isn't it actually unfair that the one who truely enjoys the palatial home, the cars, the credit cards, the furs and the dinners -- the one who runs the show behind closed doors -- this is not the person who has busted his ass (however hard) all his life to obtain such station. No, this is the woman he married and has pledged his life's work to because she strokes his dick twice a month. we men are dumb animals, so dumb that we've played into this game where we are told we always win and yet we end up with nothing because we didn't make the rules. we live in a society where the desires of a man are demonized, and the desires of a woman are enlightened. and this is where swine reminds the ladies of their stunguns.

No need for a stungun, I'll just use my teeth! Women may have some power over penis-driven men...first through our hunters and gatherers, then through our sons. Witness the many queens and concubines in history and their role. But why depend on the beauty of your plumage to feather the nest? Especially when men have been apt to fly away to another nest when the plumage begins to dull. Is it so shocking that we want power in our own right, rather than just being a glorified prostitute? Especially when we can use all the intellect once wasted on just one man. Why have power over a single entity when there are battalions to rule?

Plus they still make more money(men).

i think that, deep down, women don't really want to be the rulers. their nature is to be more nesting and nurturing. the women who do want to outwardly run things are, i believe, some kind of socio-political trans-sexual anomalies.

i'd love to jump in here, but i'm not sure what nate's questions are anymore. but yeah, women think and behave irrationally - most often likely due to hormones - but not any more or less than men do. maybe it's that women flip out in their relationships but men take their flipping out elsewhere? or maybe they flip out in a different way? but almost everyone flips out. oh, also nate, i think you are confusing two different types of gender equity relationships. the inequity at the office is a way different dynamic than any inequity at home. but whatever. that probably doesn't answer anyone's questions. i'm voting for Nader.

check the linguistics: my latest research (mad zooted to TLC) indicates that the formation of language has less to do with power and more to do with necessity. power comes into play with the addition of words, not the nature of language itself. consider this: the caesar in your head may be a raging homosexual. ponder well: everytime you post controversy, you state it in terms that reveal a lust for more power. this is my favorite part: "this kind of brings me around to my second question, which no woman i've ever brought it up to can consider logically. infact, the reactions i receive bespeak of a great conspiracy, or, paranoia aside, my own terrible delivery." man, i gotta start screaming that shit during sex. "DAMN YOU AND YOUR ESTROGENICAL TYRANNY!! TAKE MY TERRIBLE DELIVERY! TAKE IT! TAKE IT!" okay, maybe not. but it's cracking me the fuck up. me and my terrible meat gotta go to sleep.

i'm voting for nader, too. in fact, now that my parents finally became american citizens, my whole family is voting for nader. if bush wins we're all moving overseas with my brother. viva la... aw, fuck it.

why bother? nader won't be able to get anything done without congress. it still amazes me that people put any energy into the whole presidency thing. it amazes me further that i put energy into commenting about it. what kind of record does nader have as a diplomat? that and supreme court appointments and maybe a bit of cheerleading are all any president is good for. there's a difference between Right and right. does he know what that difference is? the truth is, we're all doomed. 6 billion people, 8 billion people, 20 billion people. exponential growth inevitably ends in catastrophic breakdown in the real world. pass me a chocolate donut bar thing.

shit, leave it to swine to fuck with the flow. go to sleep, mista.

Fuck with the flow...excellent mantra. Nice sticker too.

I'm voting for Swine.

Swine, you over 35?

man, my stomach is killing me. margaritas and beer, then ben & jerry's at 5:30AM. fucking lactose intolerance. fucking estrogenical intolerance. you should hear my voicemail this morning. problems. i hope to god i don't wake up at 35 to find myself the same unresolved fuck i am now. that'd be pretty miserable. i'm 29. 6 years to... shit. i don't even know. anyway. to hell with being president. i see those guys on TV. that job sucks. fuck this. i'm gonig back to sleep.

equality in the workplace went out the door when women started working. i think about this all the time when someone at work is shouting something that could probably get the whole lot of us sued. half the little asian fistbangers have swimsuit model screen savers and pictures of anna kornholecuva bending over on their cube walls. we have women in our group, and so far no one is bothered. hell, they're just as bad. one woman started calling everything "spooge". she claimed that she didn't know it was a real word, but later she admitted she did. anyway, the point is i work in a den of potential sexual harassment suits. not valid ones, mind you. this has nothing to do with the reason sexual harassment laws came to be. women have no problem advancing in this company. but the whole "i am uncomfortable so i'll sue" thing. hostile work environment. is it hostile? hell no. it is fun to go to work. but one fragile woman could fuck it all up. no fragile man could. a man who brought that kind of suit to a court would be laughed at. not that any would. but a sweet, innocent woman who just wants to go to a nice, clean office and put up her puppydog calendar and her beanie babies and drink her latte and talk about ally mcbeal or big brother. have people talk about how cute her chubby little babby is in the pictures by her monitor. that shit makes me uncomfortable. can i sue? why do we have so many additional laws to protect women? why do we hear about men the abusers when domestic violence is about 1/2 and 1/2? why is it ok to protray men in the media as stupid and helpless but not ok to protray women as the same? fucking shit

is this, like, some sort of experiment?

I think, Nate, you can trace (there's that word again) it all back to the bit where we imported the Nazis to run our intelligence gathering operations. After Elvis's death, there was no stopping them. Now the only man who stands in their way is a simple man, yet principled and willing to fight it to the end...Nader. Who cares if you vote for him or not, but if he was allowed into the debates, those would go down in history, along with Lincoln/Douglas, Kennedy/Nixon, and Bugs/Daffy.

speaking of chocolate bar donut things and coffee, BTW, I had TIm Horton's recently. Kicks Krispy Kreme's ass totally, makes it seem like Mr. Donut.

uhm. this is how it always ends up. mockery. goddamnit. you'll see. when it all goes down you'll see.

nate: WRONG, as usual. dave: do you think i'm nesting and nurturing? just curious.

you're the one with the subscription to martha stewart.

no, if he were allowed on the debates, they'd take the 30-second clip from gore hyped by gore's goons, the 30-second clip from dubya hyped by dubya's goons, and the 30-second clip from nader that can be put in the worst possible light, and who'd win? hell, even if the news were fair, what are the chances a significant part of the population could understand anything more complex than "lower taxes!" and "for the children!"?

tired: I think that one of the real problems in the media today is just that attitude: "What do the masses understand? Here, we'll just show them this." People can be taught. Some are even educated, or gifted. We HAVE to give the people, even the really dumb people, control over their own lives. drunken posting ROCKS.

No, I think that the media, being part of the masses, doesn't understand the importance of anything. That's where the real problem lies. They present what ehy find interesting, and, being members of the masses, it turns out to be 30 second clips of suckingness. I really want them to let Nader into the debates. I've gotten all of my Republican friends to claim to be voting for Nader so that he can get in--they agree that he should be allowed a fair chance on the floor. Break the bi-partisan system. Break it.

Everyone knows taht the main goal of Nader's campaign is to get teh Greens federal matching funds in 2004. That's when it will get very interesting, after four years of Bush or Gore. Anyone else intrigued by the fact that the two most well known "third-parties", Green and Reform, have minority women as their VP candidates?

Bush Gore Bush Gore Bush Gore subliminal, innit?

Isolde: c'mon! You don't climb the journalistic ranks of NBC w/o having a clue. They need a clue at least in order to know which side to villify. They just hold back on what they know in order to not sound like teachers. Going back to Antithesis's post, people don't want to learn. You teach the people, they get bored and change channels and you lose lots of advertising revenue. I'm not saying there's a big conspiracy at work here, there are channels that carry drawn-out cerebral discussions of relevant issues, I'm just saying that won't cut it for the major networks.

Nate, it may be irrational, but i'm pissed off at your assumption that men are so hard done by. How many women have been president of the USA (not counting Hilary)? How many men? How many female candidates have there been? Is that equality? I wrote a whole bunch of other stuff, but I figured you already made up your mind, so whats the point!

Mrs. Woodrow Wilson was effectively President of the United Stated after her husband's stroke in his last year in office. I think it was Wilson, at least. Same time period I am certain of that.

OMG, i think I will stay out of this

"How many women have been president of the USA (not counting Hilary)? How many men? How many female candidates have there been? " how many presidents have had any real power? how is the role of president an indicator either way? (btw: in the US the females elect the president.) what percentage of "female expression" is socially acceptable? what percentage of "male expression" is socially acceptable? in the US, is it males or females that are limited in their rights by the legislature? the assumption is that women are fucked over by men. the truth is that there is nowhere to point the finger.

I like being fucked by men,but that's just me

But I don't like gettig fucked by "the man".

arguing with nate is like trying to work it out with your cat. i don't bother anymore. it's funny to wind him up and watch him go, anyhow, even if he's wrong some of the time. he always makes for interesting conversations, which is more than can be said for most.

have i mentioned how much i hate the expression "shits and giggles"? those two words do not belong together.

you sound like my fiance, agatha. except the shits and giggles part. she likes that expression.

nate i understand you, im just not sure how to channel it all. Im not sure whats to blame for anything any more, so I try and localize as much as possible. the only balance of power im concerned with is the one in my home, and ultimately, whether she realizes it or not, she wins. I kick and scream, but she wins everytime, usually after a week or so, when my nuts turn to 10000lb cement trucks. i saw a very interesting debate on some PBS show, (recalling to no avail) on inherent differences between little boys and little girls, how they are socialized and the topic was spawned by a story of a little boy suspended from school for playing cops and robbers, using their fingers as guns. I think this exemplifies one of your points, somewhere. localize localize localize

i just think nate is bored. whenever things get dull around here, he starts yapping about libertarianism or gender issues, swine jumps in and they play tag teams for a while, the rest of sorabjiland gets their panties all in a bunch over something or other one of them said, then there's a bunch of fighting and name calling, and in the heat of breakdown, swine and nate stand back, look at the mess and hysteria and emotional bitterness, and swine says to nate, "Our work is done here." and nate says, "Yep. Let's go grab a beer." and they saunter off and get hammered on Newcastle Nut Brown ale and the rest of us suckers are left bickering over the demise of civil rights or extremist feminist paradigms. i'm still voting for Nader.

i learned a while ago this place, or anything within, is hardly worth getting emotional about. but there's a handful of newbies lately, so lets see if they take the bait. and furthermore why am i listening to this silly-assed song that goes "dinasaur sex dinasaur sex" over and over and over and over and over........why, is this an inside joke to these guys? were they smoking gov't weed? are they making a serious statement regarding evolution? Or is this another one of my lyric misinterpretations?

this is actually a pretty serious issue with me. i may take it to extremes i don't actually feel, but it is serious. and as for arguements against what i say, it is pretty much "you're wrong" or "i'm pissed and you're wrong". nothing substantial. but that's fine.

great, patrick and sarah, now you guys spilled the beans. now we have to wait for the next wave. drat.

nate, if you could more concisely present the issues with which you are seriously concerned, i would be happy to discuss them with you. but i'm not really sure what your questions and issues are. honest. it sort of reads like random ranting, which is why it smells a little like bait. if it really means something to you, perhaps you can give me (us) a clearer idea of what your concerns are, perhaps you might get someone to engage with you. or you might not. but you never know.

of course it reads like random ranting, jeez. basically my concern is that men are led by the nose through life. we are told we hold the power, and that we need to make a concerted effort to shift power to women, but in actuality women hold the power. women dictate society. it is a delightful scam. the ultimate way to control someone or something is by making someone or something think that they have the control.

WRONG. it's fun to argue with no backing facts whatsoever!

ok. your premise is that women dictate society. so in what specific ways do women dictate society? and how do you account for position and salary inequities in the workforce if it is true that women dictate society? do you recognize or disagree with the idea that power relationships between men and women in the work force are different than power relationships in romantic relationships? do you think that we are told that we need to shift power to women or that there needs to be more equity in power? this seems like a good start. now i really am going surfing. later.

Neither men nor women think their in control. They're right. The Illuminati control everything.

ok how did we get from irrational female behavior to gender equality and power? he's totally working us.

When's A getting back? Are you always this crabby when you're not getting any? Why don't you go rent a good weepy movie and stuff your gob with chocolates? Seriously, your theory only works in your little World where all the gals have college degrees and were brought up thinking they shouldn't have to do 80% of the housework while the bloke sits on his butt and bitches about his boss and occasionally beats her up to remind himself that he's in charge. Take a trip to factory heartland, then come back and tell us how women have all the power. I'm new, I couldn't help taking the bait...there was that big shiny lure just glistening there.

i'm working no one. i mentioned i had several issues, i'm satisfied with the irrational female behavior answers, move on. please. 1) the wage gap is a myth: in the Statistical Abstract of the US (1996) (available from the census bureau): full time male worker median income: $32,682 full time female worker median income: $24,454 different, yes: 1st, note we're talking medians not arithmetic average. 2nd, note we're not taking into account education, experience or tenure. 3rd: full time male hours per year (arth. avg): 2213 female: 1796 this breaks down to $14.76/hr for men and $13.62/hr for women. still different, but no where near 25-35 cents on the dollar that feminist misinformation would lead you to believe. now assume a 2 week vacation per year, 50 * 40 = 2000 hours, so men are working 213 hours of overtime per year (in these averages.) Since overtime is time and a half, the 213 hours of overtime become 319.5 hours. this brings men up to 2319.5, and their hourly wage down to $14.09/hr. for every $100 a man earns, a woman earns $96.66. less than 4 cents on the dollar different. not statistically signifigant. however, it the idea of the wage gap has been injected into popular wisdom. People can talk about it and are not required to back it up with proof.

"occasionally beats her up " in the US domestic violence perpetuated roughly 50/50. 50% man on woman, 50% woman on man. another myth that is popular wisdom.

US Bureau of Justice Stats: Intimate violence is primarily a crime against women -- in 1998, females were the victims in 72% of intimate murders and the victims of about 85% of nonlethal intimate violence.

On average each year, women experienced 572,032 violent victimizations at the hands of an intimate, compared to 48,983 incidents committed against men. (Ronet Bachman Ph.D., U.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics, "Violence Against Women: A National Crime Victimization Survey Report," January 1994, p. 6)

Tjaden, P. G., & Thoennes, N. (1998). Prevalence, Incidence and Consequences of Violence Against Women: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey. U.S. Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice & Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Research in Brief series, November, 1998. NCJ 172837: Every year, 1,510,455 women and 834,732 men are victims of physical violence by an intimate. ----------- The U.S. Department of Justice released a study on domestic violence and spousal homicides on July 11, 1994. In this study it is reported that women kill men at approximately the same rate as men kill women in "spousal" homicides. (A "spousal" homicide is a husband or wife killing the other or a homicide perpetrated by a common-law marriage partner on the other partner.) In addition this study also reported that children were killed by mothers in 55% of all parental homicides. ---------- (Paper by Kanton and Straus) the spousal abuse rates for the year 1992 for the U.S. were quoted as: Severe assault: Husband on Wife assault: 2.3% (wives reporting) 1.7% (husbands reporting) Average = 2.0% Wife on Husband assault: 5.8% (wives reporting) 3.3% (husbands reporting) Average = 4.6% Minor assault: Husband on wife assault: 11.5% (wives reporting) 8.3% (husbands reporting) Average = 9.9% Wife on husband assault: 9.9% (wives reporting) 9.1% (husbands reporting) Average = 9.5%

you can get a statistic for anything. and without a doubt, more men than women are embarassed about being beaten.

hmm. wonder why they don't have shelters for abused men... ? do you think it's because of the shame factor? i wonder if men in physically abusive relationships don't leave their abusive spouses because they'll be left "on the street" or with nowhere else to go and nobody to turn to for help? surfing tomorrow, 2-3 feet, and 5-6 feet by wednesday, south shore. we're getting close to the end of summer... just in time.

what are the statistics for non-homocidal abuse in romantic relationships?

also nate, you didn't answer any of my original questions.

Here we go again....hehehehe....Oh, did you ever give Lucy her life back?

Enjoy surfing, Sarah. Personally, I'm going to pull up a chair and a pot of tea and watch this argument unfurl.I shall be very disappointed if it fizzles away into nothing. Anyone want to join me? I've got some extra vegan cookies...

I'm with you....LET'S GET IT ON!

Which South Shore, Sarah? I can't imagine men admitting to being beaten by their wives, so those numbers are probably skewed. I did however see a bumpersticker a couple of weeks ago for an 800 number hotline for battered men. A woman was driving the car.

Damn, my post didn't go through last night. Now I can't remember what I wrote. I'm sure it was thoughful and brilliant. As far as shelters for battered men, they're commonly referred to as "bars". But I think the "Macho" stereotype does a lot to keep men from getting help that they need. The massive social weight of disapproval if a man shows weakness is more than enough to keep most men from seeking such help. I mean, when you think of men's groups, seriously, the first impression that runs through your head: positive or negative? we probably are in some danger of overemphasizing women's social needs over men's, whereas for the greater health of society, both should be examined. Oh, yeah, I remember one thing about my missing post: How is it that in the recent case where the wife of a football player, who shoot and killed him, never even was charged? According to the media, the police said she did it, but let her off scot-free. No mention of battery either but that doesn't mean it didn't happen of course. What bothers me is that there were no charges or investigation. If he had killed her, presuming the same motives she had for offing him, he would be sitting in jail right now. ( I should state that I do not condone spousal abuse, but neither do I condone murder) Anyone know what's up with this?

"also nate, you didn't answer any of my original questions." actually, I addressed your question about salary inequality. " so in what specific ways do women dictate society? " Political Correctness rings a bell. It is evident throughout pop culture. You see advertisements all the time that involve a stupid man stumbling over something simple like cooking or cleaning. You never see a stupid woman standing over a botched up oil change saying "fuck, i should have gone to jiffylube." It is evident in all aspects of life. How many uneducated men can (legally) make as much money as a female stripper? How many female interests are demonized in society? how many male interests are demonized? (pulp romance novels are OK, but porn is evil!) "do you recognize or disagree with the idea that power relationships between men and women in the work force are different than power relationships in romantic relationships? " i agree. nice use of verbage, though. "recognize or disagree" "do you think that we are told that we need to shift power to women or that there needs to be more equity in power? " women have the power and speak about the need for more equity (implying a shift in power to women.) if you have two unequal volumes you can't increase one without decreasing the other. here's a question: are men and women the same? do they have the same qualities? (physical/mental) ? Do they have the same needs? Do they have the same desires? Do they have the same impulses? Do they handle authority the same (both sides of authority)?

let's talk about the inequity of which men are put on death row where as women convicted of equals crimes are not. the draft? I don't think women and men are the same physically which can lead to mental differences, usually in form of hormones. I think we have common grounds in the way of needs, but we manifest them differently.

If men and women were meant to be the same, we would be built the same. But, women have things that they are better with (patience and compasion just as examples) then men, and men have things they are better with then women (of course, I can't think of any right now). But pay wise, politically and career wise there should be absolutely no difference. And I can see a huge difference all ready.

you cannot, however, look at the distribution of, say, women as CEOs and expect this to be representative of some grand injustice. women do not, in general, have the same drives as men. they tend to lack what it takes to become a CEO (this is not the same as lacking the ability to be a CEO.) certain jobs are full of women and slight of men. HR for instance. is this because of some injustice towards men? perhaps... but i would believe it much more likely that men are not as interested in people.

Well, I am not going to let anyone bait me into any kind of debate here, so I will leave it alone with what has already been said

there's a story about the time that king arthur makes a bet with some baron or other that he could find the answer to the question: "what is that women truly want?" he looks for a year. then he meets an old hag in the forest - the pissed-off sister of the baron - who gives him the right answer. "All women would have their will, that is their chief desire." once you truly accept that, nothing women say will confuse you ever again.

nate, i agree with you that generally women lack what it takes to become a CEO. this certainly applies to me, case in point. i don't want to be a CEO or executive any more and i can't wait to get out of my job because i can't deal with the stress and the lifestyle and the zombies (mostly men) with whom i have to work. even the great pay isn't worth it to me any more. in fact, now i know that what i want to do is write, help people, nurture, get married, and have babies. i'm sure this is just *shocking* news. i just wish that, when the time comes (which it may or may not), that i could get paid as much for being a nurturing partner and mother as i can for being an executive. i don't really think that "the men and women are inherently different" thing is the issue though. i think the issue is that the jobs and careers that women choose (or are groomed by society, culture, and upbringing to be good at) are less valued and are lower-income jobs and careers than the jobs that men pursue (or are groomed by society and upbringing to be good at). i mean, i recognize that job for job, the pay that men and women receive is generally, though not always, equal. for example, i'm sure a guy doing my job at my office would get about the same salary as i'm getting. and it's a fair wage. but then 80% of the lowest paid positions in the company i work for filled by women and 80% of the highest paid positions filled by men. one instance i can think of where this is not the case, though, is marketing. but i think that's because the paradigm for marketing is shifting away from one way and two way communication (You Need This Product, Look How Shiny and Fluffy It Is, Time Is Running Out, On Sale, All New, Hurry Go And Buy It), to community based communication, where the public is telling companies what they want and how they want it. there is more give and take, more subtlties in communication are required, and marketing is becoming more relationship (company to customer) based and less rule based. generally women have better developed senses when it comes to recognizing and utilizing subtlties in communication to get what they want and to develop relationships, and therefore marketing is becoming a more "woman friendly" career. i'm digressing, but i'm using this as an example of where one area of work that is highly valued and paid well is slowly becoming a more "woman-centric" career. i don't think your premise that women have the power is true, though. that's a gross overgeneralization. women may have more power in relationships or in some arenas, but definitely not in every arena. look at our government, look at the people who own the means of capital and wealth. though it is slowly becoming more equitable, for the most part, those people are still mostly men. i'm not saying that women don't have any power, but i definitely do not agree that Women Have The Power. they may be better at manipulating people, situations, pulling the secret levers and pulleys to get what they want or get things done (and this is likely what causes you to perceive women actually having All The Power while simultaneously insisting that men have the power) but that's because we've learned to operate that way to survive and flourish in a patriarchial society. you asked how many uneducated men can (legally) make as much money as a female stripper? i'm not really sure. but if education is the only variable, then i'd have to say that uneducated men and women have the same opportunities to do *something* to make ends meet. i guess what bothers me about your question though is that you are only looking at the surface of the situation. the fact that uneducated - and educated for that matter - women can make a Ton Of Cash by selling their body and their sexuality, and that we live in a world where this type of work is paid more than, let's say, a social worker (and i'm certain social workers work more hours than the average stripper or hooker) is fucked up. i'm not sure if i've answered your questions or not. but essentially, i do not think women and men have the same needs, desires, impulses, abilities. also, i obviously don't speak for all women. i just wanted to state that for the record because i'm sure there are plenty of women who would disagree with something or everything i've stated so far. this is just my take on it.

i appreciate your comments. i think that we agree on many lines, and differ in areas where perception may affect quantification (ie: the amount of power women hold) one thing i strongly disagree with is the marxist views. i feel that supply and demand should dictate wage, and that this is the ultimate equalizer. i also believe strongly in two parent, single breadwinner households. i don't care which gender stays home. both partners provide value to the family unit. The success of the family unit is the goal, not the value in dollars each partner adds. money isn't a status symbol. money is a tool required for life in the USA. once we get there we'll all be better off. i think women and men are different. overall equality will never be achieved because we are not equal. we are different. we all deserve equal respect, though. equal chances.

"i appreciate your comments." Whoooa boy...enough of this reasonable conciliatory crap. Bring on the cage, the whip, the butt plugs whatever...anything but consensus.

Nate, that was very well said. I agree. I didn't really want to take part in this arguemnt, but I just had to put the tea cup down for a moment to applaud you.

in my opinion, in our society the ultimate quantifier and determiner of power isn't gender, or race for that matter, it is money. i believe in equal distributions of wealth. i agree that a two parent, single readwinner household is a good thing, but is not the only paradigm for equally healthy, successful families. i think attention, love, providing, and consciousness overrides any set family structure. in any case, this has been a good volley so far, but i'm still not really clear why you think that women hold all the power in our society.

*taking isoldes tea cup and tossing it at nate* *looking away* "doo doo dada dada doo doo dada dee dee" *pointing at isolde* im with cat

Damn. That was my good china, too. Ok. I think that _any_ household raising children can work with the right amount of love and tenderness and all that good stuff. I think that whether it's two or one or four parents, a family will work if the right sentiments are involved. A single working mother can raise a little boy as well as 3 gay men and a poodle can. It's about caring, not about how many people there are. I do not believe in equal distribution of wealth. People work (usually, not always, I admit), to attain the wealth they have. Yes, sometimes it is at the cost of others, which isn't fair. But there is something to be said for the pulling yourself up by your bootstraps ideology. I'm not rich. Because I haven't worked for it. I dont' want someone to press money into my hands. If we distributed wealth equally, everyone would have none. And the money would still be unequal. Why does a CEO get more than the office boy? Because the CEO worked to become a CEO, the CEO probably went to college, and...the CEO was an office boy once too. How's that? My work has two different locations, and we hire two men. One of them is a pressman, and the other is a business manager. We hire seven women. None of us have gotten a raise in over a year, including the men. The pressman commands a high wage because his job involves a lot of training, and he's worked here forever. I command a low wage because my job requires almost no training and I haven't worked forever. Am I bitter? No. Because I understand that equality in the workplace as far as wages go is foolishness, because there's a lot more to equal wages for men and women than just that. It has so many other factors that it is unfair to make a blanket statement like "men make more." and you all know it.

by the way cat is you want to see some good scrapping, perhaps one of the alumni around here can direct us to the infamous thread in which lucy lost her marbles with us...i spent the last 15 trying to find it, no luck....antigone, nate, you guys know the one.....

What does it look like where you are: Caspar I refuse to link to it, it's bad karma. There's also the What do you want to do: write an open letter to Lucy thread. Enter at your own risk.

But remember to read and digest in respectful silence, because we dont want to reflect on that time in our lives. And i think it's "what have you done: made an open letter to..."

Oh I've read quite a bit of the Lucy stuff. From an outsider's point of view, it was fascinating watching the gradual disintegration of the boards into a festering pool of accusations and hysteria. I especially enjoyed it when the peacemakers ended up being dragged into the whole boiling mud bath. And who could forget the "sheep" thing...baaaaa. Better than a soap opera. I must learn the steps to the white boy hand jive or whatever it was.

OH my!!!!! she is in the loop

I'm sure antigone and nate would be honored to teach you.

shit.

That's step one. Step Two: pick it up.

STOP! YOU'RE OPRESSING ME, YOU SHEEP!

ANTIGONE IS STALKING ME (I wish..sigh) What about the bend-over-grab-your-ankles swivel..is that step three? And where does the jump-on-Patrick's-bones bit come in? I reckon I'll need some practice to get that move down.

Hey...what happened to the screenplay? I really wanted to jump Patrick and Nico, and it left me walking out into a street with cheesy porn music playing in the back ground...

I am stalking you, sheila. I'm sure that, somehow, in some way, I'm going to get into a steamin' heap of trouble for saying that...

Oh, and leave Lucy alone. She's busy slouching towards Bethlehem to be born.

Or you might get in a steamin' heap of pleasure for saying that, mate. I'll leave my bedroom window open tonight just in case.

since Lucy has essentially agreed not to be here, i don't believe we should ridicule her actions. focus people.

"The Best Trick the Devil ever played was convincing people that he wasn't real," Verbal Kent, The Usual Suspects That's all I have to say.

oops, substitute "the world" for "people" in the above quote

I am with Nate on this one,I liked Lucy and I thank her from the bottom of my heart for that tip about Nicorette,I am really sorry I lost my temper with her,she needed us.

Pleasure...trouble...what's the difference? ;-)

And if you leave the window open you'll catch a chill...

I have a spare space heater...

Okay, I guess that was not all I had to say... but whatever I do have to say has nothing to do with whatever everyone else is saying... Basically what I am saying is -- I'M BORED

Now I'm choking... ugh So my due date is August 31st (Thursday) and b/c the baby is like 9 to 10 lbs right now they are going to induce me on Thursday. Hurray! I am looking forward to being able to be comfortable again. Just thought I'd let everyone know.

I just read where the number of C-sections have tripled,you should try to do natural if you can,not to accomadate your DR.,s social life.I refrained from posting a pregnant story here because I knew you were here Pam.Trying to be considerate:)

I love you J! I don't want a c-section, but whatever happens, happens. But that is why I chose the doctor I have. She is pro-natural and wants to try everything before a c-section if possible. That is why she is going to induce me rather than give me the typical two weeks after the due date to just go on my own. She doesn't think that I will be able to have anything bigger than 9 lbs naturally. But we will see... Since she is pro-natural, that also means, no drugs and no epidural -- at least not until we have tried everything else first. So I am going to be induced, which means I will not get the gradual contractions. No, I will get the holy fuck what the hell is going on in there I think I am going to die from the absolute pain contractions immediately. Yeah. J, I wish you were here, I bet labor would be a blast with you there. You'd have me cracking up in no time and forgetting about my pain. Maybe I can talk FetidBeaver into slipping me some good pain meds so that I will be able to get through this whole ordeal... What do you say FB? = ) No, honestly I do want to try doing this without the drugs and pain meds, I just hope that if I can't do it, I'll get the epidural in time. Otherwise I am up shitcreek without a paddle.

Hey I'm having a contraction! I hope this is it! I have been having contractions off an on for the past week but nothing ever happens. They don't even get that painful... But this one had some bite! Please let this be it!

"the best trick the devil ever played was convincing the world he didn't exist." "the best trick the devil ever played was convincing the world it had to submit." "the best trick the devil ever played was convincing people they really exist." "the best trick the devil ever laid was that silly bitch who was convinced that the people actually gave a shit." i could go on and on and on... good luck with the pregnancy, pamela. hopefully you'll give birth to the anti-nate.

Shit, I never woulda thunk it! A baby born right here at Sorabji? Will you name the little rug rat "fuck you, you ass?"

Go for it Pamela...Look forward to hearing you and the bambino have come through safely. And remember, this is your only chance to hurl abuse and hit people without fear of reprisals. Use it wisely.

The baby should have the initials EHF.

LOL, that is what I was thinking Sarah!

hey, can I legally change my baby's last name to fuck? eat hot fuck... that sounds original

No make it something pretty,Jeannette is a beautiful name,just fooling (I think).

I like anti-nate

you would, bitch

fuck you, you bitch :-)

breathe, pamela, breathe!!! she's probably in the hospital even as we speak.

isolde, youre still walkin sister..........the cheesy porn music is incessant for the moment.......hang in there, i'll work a conclusion....... i foresee, pez, isolde and cat in compromising positions and antithesis cooking a mean quiche.... ...i love it when nate comes around on the moral high ground,

I wanna be either key grip, gaffer, or best boy.

i am the moral highground.

what do you know about camera rigs? if you grippin, you better know your rigs. you got apple boxes? electrical? i think you might be served best as PA, now take this and go run get us some coffee

shit. mathematicians in spiritualist's clothing exploit floating-point moral structures, son. smoke and mirrors may allow grasshoppa to mimic butterfly, but alas: illusions have no wings.

I was thinking maybe gaffer -- I got a big old gaff on my boat that I could bring. Anybody who doesn't seem to be working out on the set, I'll just reach over and gaff them through the eye and out through the mouth, kinda like they did in vaudville days with the shepherd staff, only a little more bloody.

(cheesy porn music continues but slowly fades after 10 sec.....) Scene: decrepit trailer, serene desert, late morning, tumbleweed rolls by a dusty late model Maverick cut to: Music: Doors, The End Patrick's POV inside trailor, standing, overlooking the following scene Pez and Isolde are laying side by side, fiddling with each others hands, eyes rolled up, heads weaving side to side, subltle grins, both in their undewear (hey we gotta sell this to the networks) Nico lays a few inches away from them both, a little more clear and level, in a 50's poka dotted bikini , overlooking the two seemingly outta of control girls with admiration, as if she's proud of her work. (Music fades) Partick: (to Nico) you never cease to amaze me............... Pez: (in slow droopy drawl)....if only i had one more opportunity to see the galaxy, if only space.....we.......... Isolde: .. (in slow droopy drawl)..i'd love to wonder what if he said, when we walked away in this hottie's car (lifting an arm and flopping on nico's left breast)......OOOPSY (giggles) hmmmmmm (hesitating for moment, only to catch a good feel before retracting her arm) Nico: Honey that guy, running after us, was he, was he your boyfriend? Does he have cause for alarm (simultaneously looking over at Patrick)? (Patrick turns to the small broom closet and pulls out a shot gun) Pez: IM ONLY 18!!!!!!! (giggles) Isolde: IM ONLY DANCING (singing to the david bowie tune) IM ONLY DANCING!!!!!!! (Patrick , wearing nothing but a grey pair of cords, holding a longneck non descript beer in his hand {corporate product placement} walks over to the window and peers out window ) Pez: (stumbles up, grabs a beer bottle, seeing its empty searches for another) Isolde: Hey pez? WHACK! (isolde thrusts all of her energy into her hand and smacks pez on the ass) Pez: HAYYY!!!!!!! find me drinky drink and you can do it again, space gnome! (Nico continues to sit back and admire these two, taking stock in what she has seemed to cause....) Nico: You know you two never have to go back, life in this place is only local, The world as you know it is implausible. You know no truth , this moment is as close to truth as you will ever get (she grabs isoldes hand and thwarts in between her legs). THIS is life, I am spice and and spice is life. Isolde: (giggling) Spice girls? Pez: (slugging her new found beer) SPICE GIRLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nico: (bounding from her cat like recline, leaps on top of isolde, straddling her) You and your lofty goals have no meaning in the real world..........you are not an individual, you are part of the cosmic process that propels you, that created you, you are integral, my hand (she takes a hand and places it between isoldes chest) is here for the greater good, a good you will need time to understand, what we need is....... Patrick: SHIT!!!!!! (Patrick's POV out a crusty trailer curtain, a truck scrambles up the dirt path, as it gets closer, we see its antithesis and cat hanging on the back roll bars with an AK-47 around her tank topped dusty chest) (shick shick!! goes the shot gun as patrick cocks the pump action with one hand, ) Patrick: things just got hairy.......pick up the drugs, PICK UP THE SPICE!!!!! (motioning to the table) (nico scrambles, isolde and pez look at each other confused, for a moment anyway, then fall back on the bed to their amusing world, playing footsies and interlocking hands arms up in front of them.......) (Nico reaches into a drawer and pulls out a silver S&W 9mm, cocks it, camera pans in for aclose up of the barrel, to see "Nico" engraved..........) Nico: they think they understand......they think they know who we are....what they think could get them killed. cut

i'm hoping to get gaffed this weekend.

now that's art, patrick. and i don't drawl.

and you can see this from your point of view, swine? keep your eyes on the pearls before you, and before you realize it you will have purses for ears.

*looks at droop with raised eyebrow* art?

I never freak out. I never turn irrational. I am big and smart and seldom feel oppressed. in my personal interactions I often feel like I am the more powerful one. having power and liking it, and getting respect, is about approaching everyone at work and at home and in the bars and on the street and at parties with the attitude, "I want to like you, and I want to work well with you, but please remember that I don't technically need you. so let's just do our best to make each other happy and we'll see how it goes."

i don't think that is a typical female attitude.

it should be. when things go wrong, I usually blame myself. I believe all that eleanor roosevelt bullshit about how no one can make you feel, what, inferior without your consent. it's like that for everything. when things make you upset, you have to ask yourself, why am I letting this person/corporation make me feel this way? it's like people forget they always have the option to leave. when the other party knows that you know you can consider the option of leaving, then they treat you better. some of my best friends still don't seem to have this figured out. why do I have no girls-night-out stories of emotional/physical/verbal abuse from men? because no man would ever feel like he could do that to me. because he always knows that would be the end, right fucking then and there. because he knows that I know it's better to be alone than with an asshole. it is all so very easy. if you don't hold onto shit, people will stop handing it to you. I am talking to myself. what I meant to say is that nate's comparison between what an uneducated man can make and what a female stripper can make is not valid. high-comp stripping is only an option for pretty, young girls with great bodies. and in towns with lots of strip clubs, like portland, I've heard that surgical enhancements are usually necessary for the really big tips and frequent couch dance requests (where the real money comes from).

I'm ready for my close-up now. Speaking of close-ups, after seeing a picture of Nate nekkid, he oughta be encouraged to be immoral, very very immoral. Now I'm just going to chase him all over the boards agreeing with him in the hope of getting his attention (or has someone already beaten me to that tactic? Darn)

oh no.

Wait a minute!!! I send Nate a picture of my ass,and I never got a picture of him naked,that is just not right! And Cyst,will you send me your e-mail address,I meant to get it when you posted it for Droopy,I have just gone through a week of posts trying to find it and my eyes are going crazy on me.

I don't check it that often but here it is, j.

damn, i haven't seen ANY naked sorabjites, and i consider my pictures to be the most revealing. Im not crying to seeing the boy naked, but it would be hoot, considering where i work, i could pass it along to the art department. damn it, nate take those pics and make a lil web page already eh? you could distribute the address accordingly.

I didn't get the pic from Nate...but I can't reveal my sources, it's against my journalistic ethics or sumpin.

jesus. i don't have any naked pictures of myself anymore. though now that i know one has been saved, i have to wonder: how many people have achieved orgasm looking at my bone? i'm sure far less than patrick & his family.

Yes, make the naked website a reality. I like the screenplay. Can we make that a scrumptious vegan quiche, by any chance?

WHATS MY MOTIVATION?????????? this is not FOR you!

Damn. No scrumptious vegan quiche for me. *searches vainly through the mostly empty fridge*

(black screen) (slowly Credence Clearwater Revival's version of Suzy Q fades in from the beginning) (fast panoramic of the trailer scene, and speeding truck approaching, ending in a direct shot of the sun) cut to inside the trailer, music is full blast, camera is fast, implying hurried frenzy, voices can be heard over music Pez and Isolde continue to giggle and play, oblivious to Patrick and Nico as they prepare. Patrick scrambles though several drawers, spilling contents, finally pulls out a box of shells shoving his pockets full of them (typical nico) Nico, has changed into a short black skirt, a white skimpy tank top, no bra, and bitching black knee highs. (its always fashion over function with her) She proceeds to tie her hair back, picking up her silver 9mm, she cocks it, shoves 3 extra clips in boots. Patrick rushes to the window, camera pans in close, his upper lip twitches slightly Patrick: You know how we do it, right, you remember the procedure RIGHT!!!! Nico: (slowly and with a saucy tone) Of course I remember how to (walking up to him and grabbing his crotch) DO IT!!!!!!!! (smiles, kisses Patrick on the cheek) Patrick: (to Iso and pez) You stay put and stay down the two euphoria twins , look for a second, giggle and continue to fiddle around.... Pez: IM ONLY 18!!!!! Music fades, but not entirely....... scene cuts to outside, anti and cat stop the truck, she jumps out, cocks her gun. Anti exits the car and pulls out his mighty Colt Python with the 8" barrel ( he has a complex). Cat: You think they are here? Anti: yeah, that's the car alright......(immediately he walks to the car and blows out all four tires, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG!!!!!!! (As soon as the 4th shot is fired, there is another blast, Anti's gun goes flying out of his hand, camera does a quick pan to see Nico, behind both of them aiming her shiny 9mm at anti, camera does a quick zoom to her feet, scrolling upward, past her bitchin boots, finally stopping on the engraved "nico" on the gun.) (The 5th blast caused Cat to turn quickly, and aim her AK at Nico , Nico doesn't flinch) Cat: Your too pretty to kill, besides, i'd like to have your gun stain free. So be a good bitch and drop the firearm, before I drop it for you. Nico: (to Cat, again without flinching or taking her eyes off anti) You too are too pretty to kill, however, you better deal with my husband first...... BLAST!!!! BLAST!!!! (two shotgun rounds are fired into the air, as Cat's turns to face the blast to her right side, she is met with the barrel of Patrick's shot gun directly at her face. Patrick: I would actually cry if you forced me to pull this trigger. Hands off the weapon, and raise them high. Continuing to hold the shot gun point blank with one hand, he whips out a hunting knife and cuts the strap of her AK off her chest, causing a mild cut, blood, spills on her dirty dusty white tank top, the gun falls to the ground. Patrick: Now be smart girl and kick that gun away......... Cat kicks the gun about 7ft away. Nico: (relaxing, her grip on the gun a bit .....to Patrick) I'm hungry, all this bang bang shit has made me hungry. Patrick: I knew that bitch was trouble. (to anti) You couldn't let it alone could ya. You silly humans gotta be friggin heros and go interrupting intergalactic protocol. Nico: (to Patrick, she is still aiming at anti, but with less vigor) IM HUNGRY DAMN IT! Tie these fuckers up and lets eat!!!! Patrick: (to anti, still holding the gun to Cat, tense as before) Now look what you did, you got her all hysterical.... Nico: (in a girly like whimper) Look at me baby, im hungry!!! Patrick:.... (to anti) YOU GOT HER ALL HYSTERICAL, DO YOU KNOW HOW IRRITABLE I GET WHEN SHE'S HYSTERICAL!!!!!!!!!!! You cook? Anti: Huh? Patrick: DO YOU COOK!!?????? Anti: Um well i sorta, guess i know how to ...... Isolde: (Off screen) .......yes he knows how to cook (camera pans abruptly to isolde, in her underwear, standing on the trailor steps with pez wrapped around her from behind, biting her ears, glaring at the rest of us, as if we interrupted) Isolde:......he makes a mean mean quiche (camera pans back to Patrick, close up, puzzled look on his face, he looks to nico, same angle, however he goes out of focus and she comes into focus, she uses her most pouty expression, curls her botoom lip, smiles cutely, coyly) Nico: I like quich! camera pans down her leg, to see her left foot drawing semi circles in the dirt...... music (still CCR) comes up, and slowly fades..... cut

this reminds me of "dog soldiers" by robert stone. for some reason. fuck it all.

there's a czech band whose name translates as "dog soldiers." psi vojaci.

Rock. I like it better and better now. Keep up the good work...

It's a hit Patrick! But I can't believe you cut me...you, you bastard! That better have been fake blood or I'm never ever going to play bang bang with you. Oh and speaking of banging, when do I get my love scene? My trailer could use some new nubile love slaves to fan me, by the way. The other ones are getting slow now. And while you're at it, get ones who can REALLY peel my Chardonnay first vintage grapes this time. I don't know how I'm expected to perform under these savage conditions, sheeesh!

settle, settle, talk to your union rep. you'll get your love scene, isolde, your news above, adds an intersting slant, im hesitant to tread on thin ice.

MONKEY FUCK RAT FUCK PILE OF FUCK!

Nate, you have hostility issues you need to work out.

Are you volunteering?

i really don't. it's just my online persona.

you mean you're not a unidemensional person? i wish i could say the same thing and have people *believe* me. sheila knows better. long live sheila!

Strangely enough one of the most saleable and sailable boats my business back in the 80's built: always Chevy green hulled, mahogany and walnut and teak over hard rock maple -- gaff rigged -- cat boats. No shit. I'd add the boat as a prop - so to speak - if I had one today. They are few in number and collector's items (at least I like to think that; the company still exists out in Olympia WA). But, I gave my last away in mid 94 or 95. I don't even have an oar anymore. "Untie me from the mast, you handsome lass!" seems ominously missing from the otherwise superbly wrought dialogue above.