you can be friends with someone you haven't dated, but you try and be friends with someone you have dated and fell out with, impossible. so answer is yes and no.

NO...answer is....no

The answer is: Yes if you control your genitals, No if they control you. That'll be 25 cents.

I agree semillama, but I also have to add the respect thing in there. I have many guy friends who are just friends, but I have never slept with any of them. Kissed a couple but that is all, and I don't even remember that. My male friends and I have a strong mutual respect for each other and are glad to keep it at the level of friends only. There can be great intimacy without sex and I am speaking on a personal conversational kind of manner. I still have friends of the opposite sex from High School, 10 years later. It is possible, but it has to be a stong enough relationship that sex doesn't come into play.

wow. this is a bit of a trick subject, the way i see it. i believe that, ideally, it should be no problem for men and women to be friends. And for my side of it, it could happen. but it just doesn't seem to work out from the other end. after a while, relationships with the opposite sex always seem to get awkward and sticky. i hate the loss of respect that always follows when someone wants more in a relationship and can't just accept what they already have. it's not that i don't know some great guys, i mean, i dearly love some of them. they're wonderful people in so many ways. but it just seems an eternal uphill struggle. if you get close enough to someone of the opposite sex, it becomes difficult to maintain the sort of non-sexual relationship i would seek. *harsh sigh* just keep trying, i guess. -c

why keep trying? why not just fuck and be fucked? you can never know anyone to a degree where you aren't still alone when you close your eyes at night. you're a hole that no matter of human contact will fill. why bother? why not just satisfy your own needs and to hell with the robots that you have to use in the process?

b00gnsh

urselkie

Nate, what did the Buddhist monk say to the hot dog vendor?

Be quiet and drive?

"I'd watch my ass if I were you"? "Is that a hotdog in your apron or you just happy to see Budda"? "I'd gladly pay you tuesday for a hotdog today". " I let a monk throw a whole pack of hotdogs one at a time down my poopshoot,cause we lost the dartboard".

footlong, onions and kraut?

" Did you know those are made of lips,assholes,and eyelids"?

"I'm not paying $3.00 for a hot dog!"

Radio.

Make me one...with everything.

aHAHAHAHAHHAHAAaaa!!

that rules.

it's hard for a man and a woman to be friends. it just is.

i don't like sex. i have my reasons, but the bottom line is, i really don't like it. so i'd like to be able to find some sort of friendly human contact that doesn't make me want to vomit. and as far as being in a hole, yes. sadly what you say is true. but it's nice to know that the inside of other's people's holes may be more like mine that i thinks. it's comforting to know that someone out there really cares about you. and it's nice to know that you're not crazy for some of the things you think. but i really don't like sex. so i'm really hoping i can make this work.

you're the only one who really cares about you. and you're crazy if you don't like sex. find a castrati or risk being a daily disappointment to someone you love.

It almost sounds like there is a bit of confusion on the whole issue. I mean, my guy friends and I don't have any kind of romance. There isn't love or longing, simply friendship. There isn't a pressure for sex, and it never comes into play so there aren't any awkward moments. If there was longing or awkward moments it wouldn't be a friendship, but the start of something else. What C has described above sounds more like a sexless romantic relationship which is very different than friendship.

it sounds like some man is in hell. "no, really, honey, i don't mind. i understand."

i don't know. how many times has a woman said, "can't we just be friends?", and a man has thought, "well, ok, but can we do it naked?"

It just sounds like she never had any good sex cause if she did,she'd like it.Plus it helps if you don't just lay there with an I don't like sex attitude.

no no, that's not it, folks. i'm positive cyst has experienced truly good sex at some point. it's not that there isn't pleasure from orgasm, it's that there's an inevitable disdain for and/or boredom in the process of getting there.

oh wait. that's not cyst. fuck, nevermind. if y'all could post a list of and keep to your distinct screen identities, i would be grateful.

I volounteer to be the identity nazi. You'd all better watch yourselves. Your alter-egos are MINE.

Riiiiiiight.

You're a piece of shit, t-bone!

J's right. Just laying there, with an I don't like sex attitude, will definately put a damper on activities. Its best to think of it as a hands-on curriculum. Participation, thats the key. You are what you grope.

"You are what you grope." A self-affirmation for masturbators. It'd make a good book title.

key west: four guys. five days. two harley rides. countless drinks. happy new year. http://syrup.org/photos/keywest

Where would we be without random drunk guys?

adoption agencies?

hey. for your information, i did not sleep with, fuck, nor even kiss even one of those guys. and one of them is my brother in law. and i was wading in the shallow end of the gene pool down there anyway. gimme a fuckin break.

you fucked your brother in law? wtf.

har har har. actually, the guy in the bloody mary photo had an interesting story. he and his dad won the lottery a few years ago. they're from sandusky, ohio (sem: remember Cedar Point?), and talked about sandusky like it was rome or paris or london. definitely king of the hill types. he still lives there and manages a bar. very nice guy, also well-traveled. he'd even been to egypt. after key west they were on their way to jamaica. i got really really drunk with them, and all he did was walk me and my rented bicycle back to my hotel, made sure i got in okay, end of story. he also bought my brother in law that cigar. oh, and the guy in the big cookie photo was from Oxford, Michigan. midwesterners everywhere down there, it's nuts.

Mavis lived in Oxford for a while.

how is she doing? give us a mavis update.

doing well, getting married this summer which will involve a three day party with lots of folks up past Muskegon, Michigan in the woods. Y'all should come.

No to change the subject but did Kazoo like the Big Leblonski?

Hey, I watched the Big Lebowski over Xmas vacation -- I loved it! Jesus killed me.

Yes, yes she did. She also really liked Death to Smoochie, which has become one of my favorite movies.

I went through this period of my life where I did not want sex. Romance, yes; sex, no. Of course I was starting a cocktail of mind-altering drugs during that time, and now that my body is used to them, I have started to be more interested in sex again... of course it is with a married man, go figure. But anyways, I can understand how someone could be in a relationship, or even not in a relationship, and hate sex.

nobody fucks with the jesus. Big Lebowski is in the background at the moment.

holy shit, this is a bad one, but i think that many of you will find, as you grow older, that sex really loses much of its importance. it's not that you don't want to do it anymore, but you care a hell of a lot less if you're not always getting laid. this is not just my opinion. other people my age have told me this. what matters more is the quality of the day-to-day relationship with your partner. does this make any sense?

and, maybe, this is why a man and a woman must be friends before they can ever have a "love" relationship. susan is my best friend. i want to spend the rest of my life just "hanging out" with her. this is everything to me.

maybe if you get bitchafied.

nate, i hope you're kidding. i don't feel like i've comprimised myself.

of course you don't. being bitchafied makes you passive. no personal slight intended- i realize the words are harsh for the concept i'm trying to relate. good on your and your relationship. it sounds pleasant.

ok, please try to explain it. i'm not offended. i just want discuss this. i think that partners need to be friends if they are going to be life-long lovers. i hope that i'm not a stupid romantic.

it is just that you need to forsake a degree of your masculinity to settle into such a situation. not to imply that one can't be masculine AND friends with their partners. it is the slide into a feminine pattern of communication and passivity that is the symptom. and perhaps this is completely different for you, but in my experience (personal and observed) a friendship with a woman is not going to be balanced. to make it work you have to move more towards the social "norm", which is feminized interaction. you're a 21 year old man and you fuck your best bud's girl and he breaks your jaw and then a week later you're having beers and talking about what a slut that bitch was. you're a 21 year old woman and you fuck your best friend's man and she keys SLUT into the hood of your miata and you never talk to each other again. the first example is masculine friendship, the second is feminine friendship. what kind of friendship are you going to have with your life-long lover?

the second example is definitely not representative of feminie friendship.

i have this friend in hawaii named matt. he is a few years younger than me, a ph.d. candidate in philosophy. very smart, very masculine. when i first met him he had a strong mysogynist streak (and probably still does). but there was something about him that i liked, that i clicked with. we became very close friends very fast, with no hint of sex. in fact, the second time we hung out together, i took him to a party at my friend's mansion. we all sat around in the hottub nekkid and slightly drunk and all we did was talk and laugh and relax. we grew closer and closer over the years. i was his confidante, he took me on adventures. we would go to plays, movies, to the cigar bar downtown for smokes and martinis. whenever our friends at the mansion had a party, inevitably he and i would end up in the master bathroom, taking a hot bubble bath together (one of us at each end of the tub) in the wee hours. we never touched each other, never kissed. he never made a move. we would just sit and talk. he's not gay. today he has a girlfriend, whom he met a couple months before i moved away and whom i finally met this past thanksgiving. she's amazing and they are perfect for each other. he and i had a couple fights along the way. once i got mad at him because at one point it seemed like all we would ever do is have dinner at my house and he'd drink me out of liquor and be rude and then pass out. once he was mad at me because ... shit, i don't even remember why. something kinda stupid. each time we would get mad, have a big argument, he'd storm out of my house or me out of his, and then we'd call each other a couple days later and say sorry and that was it. i miss him a lot. we didn't get to hang out much when i was in hawaii last time because he was studying to take his comps that very week.

tell me again about this masculine hetero man who would sit naked in a bath with a pretty girl and never make a move? "the second example is definitely not representative of feminie friendship." you sure? was your man an example of a feminine friendship? what is an example? women who can hang easily with guys tend to consistantly complain about the same qualities of feminine relationships. are there negative qualities of masculine relationships that you can identify? (seriously, i'm not being flippant.)

Nate, what is up with your insistance that all women = [X]? There are, what, 3 billion women on this planet -- you think they all relate to one another in the same way? You think all women have the same weaknesses? The same reactions to bad situations?

matt and i have a very special, unique bond - all intellectual and spiritual and goofy, and not at all sexual. we consider each other attractive from a purely objective standpoint, but we're not attracted to each other sexually. of course, i can't read his mind and say he never ever thought about the idea of having sex with me, but honestly i don't think that having the thought means that there's sexual attraction or sexual inevitability. i often think about having sex with my women friends whom i find attractive, but never (well, almost never) actually want to have sex with them or try to initiate it. it's just a passing thought, and i'm able to have a completely platonic relationship with them. sometimes matt and i would do masculine things together and talk to each other like men do, other times it was more feminine in nature. it just depended on what we were doing together for fun or how we were feeling at any given time. i think men and women are capable of having neither an entirely masculine or an entirely feminine friendship. i think men and women can have a friendship that is both, or neither masculine and feminine. i can hang easily with men and have plenty of platonic friendships with men, but i prefer the company of women. i think women who say they are better friends with men and who say they hate how catty or bitchy women are say that because it's an easy way to explain why they can't get along with other women without having to look at their own behavior in feminine relationships too closely. your example of feminine friendships is based on stereotype and media. i also don't think your example of masculine friendships is accurate. i've known male friends who have become so pissed off at each other (over women, over jobs, over whatever...) that they've never spoken again. that said, i admit that i've never before or since had a friend like matt, and that other male friendships haven't been as easy. this is sort of a tangent, but you know what really pisses me off? is when girlfriends of mine get edgy when i'm around their boyfriends or husbands. maybe it's just pure instinct, or maybe it's insecurity, but i take offense to women who think that i have any interest whatsoever in their significant others. if a man is in a relationship, especially in a relationship with someone i care about (!!), it does not matter if i find him attractive or not. he is just a guy to me, just a person, and i do not even consider the possibility of anything else.

oh, and not to mention that i know for a fact that those same girlfriends would not have been edgy about me being around their boyfriends/husbands when i was 225 lbs. as if being thin somehow makes you suddenly want to fuck their significant others. it's so offensive.

I've always been the "safe" person that women could trust their boyfriends with. I used to think it had to do with my physical undesirablity rather than my fabulous personality. My preference for friendships with men, in the past, had less to do with my feelings about either men or women than with my interests and hobbies. Still, nothing is ever that cut and dry. I know plenty of women who enjoy the same things that I do. In my overall experience with friendships, the best friendship was/is with a woman. The most hurtful was also with a woman. I don't deny that there are certain behavioral traits that are more or less gender based, but in the end, it's compatibility and personality that determines whether or not a friendship is successful. I thought both examples were stereotypical and dehumanizing.

"I used to think it had to do with my physical undesirablity rather than my fabulous personality." what do you think it has to do with now? Im curious.

I was always the "safe" friend. Not just the one that people trusted with their boyfriends, but the one who would step back when we met guys and let the other one's have them. I never worried about it because I never had a hard time finding men and I didn't need anyone else's men. I don't know why I always fell into this role, but I just did. When Trace and I went back to Cali and he met one of my friends from school and his girlfriend things pretty much looked the same for a while but then Bridgette started getting weird. For some reason I am now the threat, though I can't see why. I didn't want Paul 10 years ago and I don't want him now. If I had wanted him she never would have met him. He dated her on my advice. He married her. Bridgette is still weird about it. Deletes phone messages so that Paul won't know I called, or emails so he won't know I emailed him. Plays games. She even lies to his family so that Paul won't learn what is going on with Trace and I and our lives. So to make my long drawn out point, I have ALWAYS been the safe one. Now for some reason, I am seen as the threat.

My fabulous personality. Specifically, I think it has a lot to do with the fact that I am completely incapable of flirting so none of my behavior is misunderstood by any of the parties involved, well except in one instance with a former roommate but she was a little nutty in her insecurities. Also, because I am loyal and trustworthy and wouldn't date anyone who is dating a friend of mine.

perhaps eri....your friend perceives your confident. confident, strong-willed, independent woman can be a threat to other women.....sarah....you think?

On the other side, I have felt that some of my male friend's girlfriends have not liked me. As long as it didn't affect the friendship, it didn't matter. In one instance. It turned out that she (and my friend) didn't think that I liked her (which was true at first). But I liked him more than I could ever dislike her. It was a very sad time for me and several of our friends. To make a long story short, we shared an apartment our senior year in college. Yes, it's all about my charming and irresistable personality.

I am sorry, that should read, "In one instance, it did affect the friendship"

"confident, strong-willed, independent woman can be a threat to other women.....sarah....you think?" Here's what I think, even though I am not Sarah. I think that ANY woman can be threatening if the one feeling threatened is insecure enough. And everyone gets insecure from time to time, it's how it affects your judgement and behavior that matters.

And I would also like to say that, under certain circumstances, those slight moments of jealousy can lead to very good things.

"confident, strong-willed, independent woman can be a threat to other women....." I guess I haven't really thought of myself that way. Kinda like when people tell me I'm beautiful (physically). I just never saw myself like that. I just find it odd because the last thing I am is a threat to any other woman. Like Kazoo I am a loyal and trustworthy friend and never dreamed of dating anyone who was involved with a friend of mine.

sometimes, it's not even about the threat of cheating or stealing, but just the bad feelings that one woman gets from another. It happens to men too. It used to happen all the time with my exboyfriend.

yeah, kevin used to think that every guy on the planet was hitting on me or wanted to sleep with me. he'd get all weird if we went out and i was chatting with some guy we knew, even if he had a girlfriend or wife.

my housemate, despite being a well-educated and brilliant pianist, sweet, attractive, and independent, is radically insecure. she also does not have a very dynamic personality. she's not shy, she's just reserved. this is not a bad thing necessarily. but unfortunately this sometimes makes for awkward moments when she brings boyfriends or dates over and i end up having more to talk with them about than she does. she'll make a point to bring up the name of whatever guy i happen to be dating at the time. or the last time her latest date came over, Russ, she mentioned how my new years resolutions are to give up men and drinking. this is after he and i have been talking and laughing about something for maybe five minutes. just because i enjoy talking with them and making them feel welcome when they come over, i have no desire whatsoever to get with, date, or otherwise hang out with her man, or any of her men.

Sarah, I had a similar experience with a former roommate. She brought this guy over that she had been telling me all about and when I came home that night, she seemed eager to introduce me. Then I went upstairs to change, start my homework, and call Shannon. After about an hour I came down to get some tea and to ask them a question regarding the presentation I had to give the next day. As it happened, we all got to chatting and laughing and so forth. Then it was decided that James was going to get some wine. I wasn't going to hang out with them any longer as I had a presentation to prepare. After he leaves, my roommate starts freaking out, like she's having some kind of panic attack. She said stuff like, "I feel wierd, I don't know, I have to call someone and talk." I had no idea what was wrong so I just went to my room to finish working. She comes in and tells me that I acted flirty and behaved completely inappropriately. She was pissed. I said she was wrong and that I didn't mean to make her feel that way. She was still pissed. This upset me very much and so I called Shannon to vent. Then she bursts into my room and starts yelling that she had never seen me "behave that way before" and that she would never do that if I brought a guy over. I told her to get the fuck out of my room. Shannon told me not to worry that he would feel her up later that night and she'd be fine the next day which is exactly what happened. She apologized. Anyway, I could never look at her the same way after that...that is, I never believed that she really had the confidence that she tried to display in her demeanor. Not because she got mad but because all of her insecurities overtook ANY common sense. First of all, I went upstairs to change. If I was going to try to pick up someone's date I would not have worn what I had on: pajama pants with holes in them and a ratty cardigan sweater with stains on it. I also had my hair pulled back and had taken my contacts out. Second, eventually the conversation evolved into my upcoming trip to Chicago to visit a guy that I was hoping to hook up with, which I brought up. I could talk for days about what an awful living experience this was. I won't. Basically, it was just a situation of the most irritating person in the world (her) living with the most irritable person in the world. I actually have a little more patience than that sounds, it's just that she managed to hit every single one of my nerves.

I just think Bridgette is weird and insecure. Most people who know me don't consider me a threat, but there are still a bunch who do. I don't know if it is about the threat of cheating or stealing because Bridgette and I were friends for a year and a half before we started having problems. She would crack jokes with me about Paul's history with me (we had been friends for 12 years at this point) and she would thank me for telling Paul to date her and go on and on about how happy she was that I did. She was glad that out of all of the clique from high school who still keeps in touch I am the only one who didn't try to sabotage their relationship. But for some reason I am the one who she deletes the messages of, and the emails of. I am not going to worry about this anymore. Since the topic started off today being a thing on friendships between men and women and such, I would like to pose a question......of course there is a story that goes with it..... My best friend (Sherri) brought her boyfriend out on Thanksgiving. She wanted us to meet him and get to know him. We walk in the door and she goes to introduce us and this guy recognizes Trace (Trace can't quite place him). We go home and then the next day they come over here and this guy is like a cold fish, and can't keep up a conversation and when we try to draw him out he starts yelling at Sherri and asked her if she wants him to sit in the car and wait until she is ready to leave (like a temper tantrum out of a 2 year old). He was like this the whole damned visit. I asked Sherri about it later. This guy said he was uncomfortable because he used to pick on Trace in Jr. High school and he felt guilty about it. He wanted to say something to Trace but "didn't find the time" even though the two of them were at the park with the kids sitting and talking for a half an hour. Apparently he felt so bad he was crying to Sherri, but wouldn't say shit to us and the trip went so badly that Sherri left in tears and he got drunk. This was SOOOOO many years ago that my first thought would be that it wouldn't matter because we aren't little kids anymore and it is in the past so who cares. Trace was pretty much the same way except for the fact that this guy was so much like he used to be that he worried about Sherri and her kids. Is it normal for guys to act like this? To freak out and act like idiots and clam up if they run across someone they weren't nice to 18 years ago?

I know people who have painful memories of bullies and other meanies and I can think of a few who would probably react in a similar fashion if they met up with them today. And I've heard of people who feel guilty about being bullies and still obsess over it. His behavior seems inappropriate and indicative of some larger self-esteem and/or anger and guilt issues that probably need to be dealt with...you know maybe guilt that he has been harboring for many years and over other people, not just Trace specifically.

"Nate, what is up with your insistance that all women = [X]? " c'mon spider, i'm speaking in general terms. kind of like the science of psychology.

i like how women freak out about stereotypes. they're stereotypes for a reason!

What a cop out. Could you please address the points we've made?

moreover.....everyone is now posting stories to support the stereotypes.

Or not. While there were irrational, jealous women in each story, there were also rational, sensible narrators. Or is this one of those half-empty/half-full things?

oh fuck off. no one is saying that those characteristics aren't real, but our stories at least illustrate some of the circumstances through which they manifest themselves and are sensitive to individual experiences and personalities.

oh relax kazoo. there's nothing to get fluffy about here.

"you're a 21 year old woman and you fuck your best friend's man and she keys SLUT into the hood of your miata and you never talk to each other again." This is the stereotype female relationship given by Nate. In my story with Bridgette, although she is insecure, nobody keyed shit into anything, nobody called anybody a slut, and we still talk to each other she is just weird so the conversation is strained and I talk to Paul more. So therefore it doesn't fit the stereotype presented here. I am not in a fluff, or upset or anything. Just pointing out that the definitions or stereotypes mentioned don't fit the stories.

Yes, but you didn't fuck Paul either. The problem I had with the examples is that, they assumed , in the case of the men, that a guy couldn't be so hurt by his friend and would automatically take it out on the women. In the case of the woman, it assumed that there would be no forgiveness. Both stories assumed fault with the woman and in neither case was the guy held accountable. And in the real world this isn't the case. That isn't to say that these things don't happen, but I don't think it is fair to characterize all friendships according to the stereotypical behavior of 21 year olds.

i havent cited or regarded his examples at all in this matter. i was simply responding to the stories you all retold about women behaving irrationally due to their insecurities, an aspect to nate's point. do i believe men can behave this way? sure. do i believe if more predominate in the female species? yes. why? hell if i know. im positive there are all kinds of sociological explanations but im basing it strictly on observations of my own for now. Im too sick to think about it. as spider points out...the stories all demonstrate the rationale, secure behavior of the story-tellers. Indeed. Which is why you ladies are perhaps a cut above the rest. Why perhaps, you don't fit the rule. There's always exceptions to the rule. My wife doesnt fit the rule. She also doesnt like stereotypes. Boy does she, like kazoo, spit fire when you make any implication. Yet she has no problem busting my balls because i like watching hockey, equating me with modern masculine culture. But god forbid I remark on her penchant for shopping or even window shopping and how it fits a stereotypical implication on women. Women, in my experience, don't like being thought of in any way shape or form anything like the woman next to them. They just arent comfortable with that. Its a shot at their individuality somehow. Its a bit silly and frivilous, but its a lesson (hole) i learn (trip in to) all the time.

I don't particulary have a problem with stereotypes when they pertain to me. I do love to window shop, worry about my weight, love the ballet, have tons of shoes and clothes and always look for the coordinating handbag. I am the typical girlie girl and I am fine with that. Stereotypes that are me are just fine with me. I don't have a problem being compared to the woman next to me so long as it is a woman I respect and the comments are complimentary (not about how much better her rack is or something like that). It is true that I wasn't fucking Paul, but I did leave out the part that Paul was working his way through college so that he could marry me and give me "the lifestyle I deserve". He travelled to see me and I sent him packing and told him to date other people and find someone else. He would call and tell me about the girls he was thinking of dating to prove to me that he was doing what I wanted him to do and he would do whatever I wanted to get me to marry him. It was then that I told him to date Bridgette, because I didn't want him and would do anything to get him to move on. Physically we were never together, but he was prepared to marry me as soon as he got his degree and if I had been single when I went back to Cali he would have dropped Bridgette in a heartbeat at the off chance that I might give him a chance. So I guess it is a bit more complicated than simply being friends, even though we never dated. He likes to tell Spunky stories of things that happened between us that I sure as hell don't remember, since I never felt that way about him. Bridgette was under the idea that we were quite a couple until she met me and got both sides of the story.

That's a pretty damned important little detail, eri.

ladies, ladies. if you want to argue against my points you should stop behaving in such a way as to support them. any time a man describes female behavior it turns into a sexism issue. vice versa and she's a fucking professor. in both my examples of behavior i was assuming the male-female relationship was your typical 21 year old boyfriend/girlfriend, six months, vaguely serious type thing. nothing to ruin a friendship over. at least, not in the masculine world. kazoo, don't turn this into a victimization thing. 'the woman is always blamed' isn't the intent of the example, just a side effect. in the masculine case, the bond between men is such that friendship is held above pussy. and disagreements can be worked out through an explosion of engergy that results in the realization that the problem isn't more important than the friendship. in the feminine case, which i can't profess to understand completely, the concept of slight against your person is held higher than friendship. the female starts thinking "unh-uh, she didn't just do that to me. if she would do that to me, she must not be my friend." you can argue all you want that the stereotype of women being irrational is wrong, but it holds over the general population. i say this without judgement- maybe being irrational is a good thing. i don't know.

Actually Patrick, you seem to have hit it on the head, for me. I am loyal but I also expect to be treated the same as I treat others (do unto others) when it comes to my friends. If someone could do something that made me feel that badly I would think "If she could do that to me than she isn't a true friend", but a man would never fall into that category. It would have to be something much worse than fucking some guy to get me to that point. But basically you got it. I just find it hard to believe that men don't have their thing, where they draw the line and are done with friendships. Not cheating or fucking someone, but something bigger where they are just done with the whole thing, like I am.

that is nate, honey....

nate, you're being an instigator. don't make me come over there and slap you upside the head.

you are exciting him sarah

ooops, sorry Patrick

hey, what a bout sorry nate? sarah, i'm sure once heather returns home and reads this thread she'll do it for you.

speaking of irrational: i don't get the logic in apologizing to patrick for calling nate by his name. har.

suck it jack. i have an ear infection and i am enjoying the fruits of maternal love. sorry, women just take better care. stereotype that most women wont argue with. i musta picked up something at that petri dish known as chuckee cheese. fuck i hurt... more coedine syrup please.... *burp*

women aren't irrational, they're just not always hyper-rational. they have the ability to interpret reality through a balance of logic *and* intuition, for a more complete understanding of the big picture.

now there's a false stereotype. if women have such a complete understanding of the big picture, why do they make so much shit for themselves? i've lived my adult life on a strong intuition component, which i find to be both rational and accurate.

I don't think there's a general way all women or all men are. It's conditioning, really. Although there is a study of the effects of prenatal testosterone on the activities of female toddlers. Apparently if a girl participates in normally "male" oriented activities on a regular basis, she can now blame it on her mother.

well, lapis. there might be a general way men or women are, or there might be a way all men or women are, the former being a subset of the latter. if hormone levels affect activitites, it would suggest it isn't all conditioning, eh?

There is a general way men or women are. Men are, in general, male. Women are, in general, female. I may be wrong, though.

OK, men in general have penises and women in general have vaginas. I know it isn't true in all cases, but I guess that would be a fair stereotype.

tiggy, you dumbass, what does subset mean.

There are only two kinds of people,good and bad,that is a trait among both sexes.

A subset is a set of discreet elements A which is completely contained within a second set B. A set is a grouping of discreet elements where membership can be exactly defined. Tell me what your sets are and their membership definitions, yo.

Should we do a Ven diagram? Women, generally, never use logic. They do everything by "feelings". And, it works quite well for them. Men, generally, only use logic. We are not built to handle feelings the same way as women. To use feelings would only screw us up. Example - Man: "Dear, would you like some Ice Cream?" Meaning - I'm asking only if you want some Ice Cream. I'm not thinking of anything else. And, that is all we have in the house. Woman: "I'm not in the mood for Ice Cream." Meaning - I want a Steak Dinner with all the trimmings. Even if it is 1:00AM. And, you better be quick about it. Or, I want some cheesecake. Go get it NOW.

read this again: "there might be a general way men or women are, or there might be a way all men or women are, the former being a subset of the latter." let me know if it still escapes you.

and don't associate the watcher's views with my own.

Still escaping. What are the sets you're talking about? General or non-general "ways" people "are"?

watcher do you get your ideas from the 'funny' section of the paper...specifically Andy Capp?

Nah, he's more of a Lockhorn man, don't you think?

No. Twenty eight years of hard knocks experience. I've been in the doghouse more times for not understanding her responces to simple questions than for anything else. I know I'm not alone in this. I saw a health news report on why women get better health care from female doctors than from men. The answer is comunication. A male doctor will ask how his patient is feeling and the woman will reply fine. He takes this to mean she has no problems. A female doctor will know that that is not a positive responce and assumes there is a problem somewhere.

I'm sorry that your 28 years of hard knocks experience has messed with your ability to think objectively. It must be that prolonged exposure to the female essence. So, people go to the doctor just to tell them they're fine?

28 years of "hardknocks experience". you jaded fuck. all you've appear to have done is emobodied lighthearted humor on the subject or marriage and male/female relationships into a perceived sense of reality for yourself. "female essense" HA! is that something emeril cooks with? females probably get a better response from female doctors simply because they understand the female body better. the medical profession, still, to this date understands so little about the unique aspects to the female body, so much is left unanswered, so its only obvious females docs would understand female patients better. Have you ever tried explaining to a woman what a kick in the nuts feels like? Now try explaining it to a man and see how much quicker he comprehends. Your assesment of relations between the sexes is base and borderline retarded.

sorry, tiggy, it is abstract. all it says is that the population that fits the characteristics of the generalzation is a subset of the whole population.

Dats more like it.

now that i am older, i realize that sex has nothing to do with it. there are no roles. there are no rules. i love her because she loves me. she loves me because i love her. i have not changed who i am, nor has she. i am the luckiest guy in the world.

my friend tim with whom i've been spending a lot of time with in the past few months kissed me on the lips for a long time on saturday night. i was totally surprised by this turn of events. the boy is so damn shy. and hard to read. and hard to get to know.

Did you get to know his lips?

Or any other parts ?

i did not get to know any of his parts. i sent him home because i get up early every sunday for yoga class. he's been very sweet since. he called twice and left a message once, and sent me email. i think we're going to hang out thursday night and he invited me to meet all of his friends at a going away party saturday night. he's lived in austin 9 years, so he's got history, and a life. i like him a lot. i hope it remains casual, because i'm not just not interested in dating at all. life is really good right now, i'm happy, but mostly feel emotionally unavailable. detached. the dating drama... it's the same story over and over and i'm terribly bored by it.

sarah, i think it's ok and not boring to feel good on your own. you can't be part of a team if you don't feel good by yourself. the fact that you mentioned his history says a lot. yes, he has a life and so do you. so, see if there is anything in common. you never know!

Kazoo also said she wasn't interested in dating when she first went out with me...

same with nico. she was "playing the field", "dating many". hahahahahahhaahahahahahahahahahahahaha

When your not looking for it,it seems to find you.

I was dating more than one person and not bothering with relationships (for the first time in my life) when Spunky and I started dating. I didn't want to bother with another failed relationship so I just quit trying and decided it was my time to have some fun. I was dating Spunky and another guy for a couple of months before I realized what I wanted. So in my case it happened when I wasn't looking for it and wasn't going to try anymore. Then again, that is how Mikayla happened too. The last thing I wanted was to be pregnant again and have yet another miscarriage. Low and behold I have a wonderful husband and a wild child!

J, define "it".

she's talking about coconut cream pie, sarah.

eri, i swear it was the same for me. i was divorced over ten years and in my mid-40's. i was CERTAIN that there was nobody out there who could possibly be compatible and not already taken. i was WRONG. it was a wonderful revalation and i am very happy now.

oh yes, and we ARE friends. i didn't think it was possible. i was wrong.

When all else fails and my life is filled with drama (as it is now) I am glad that I have my best friend to take care of me.

I believe I also said something about hating long distance relationships. I wasn't dating anyone else, like Sarah I was bored by all of it and was otherwise happy, but totally detached; I was much too preoccupied with moving to think about anyone but myself. So much for that.

eri, you and spunky have found it. sometimes, i think that there is no one who could have more drama in his life than i. susan does everything she can to help me because she looks through it all and sees something there that she loves. how could i not return that love? add to that the fact that i also love her for who she is. she has problems, too. i don't care. she is going to "do" the atkins diet with me because she knows that it means a lot to me. she doesn't need to lose as much weight as i. what else can i say?

so, let's change the title of this thread to "can men and women just be friends?: YES

Ah, but we aren't just friends. I think this is where the lines get crossed. I do have men that I am only friends with, not all of them with the Paul drama or history. Funny thing is that I don't have any problems or drama or anything just being friends with them, but when they meet my best friend they automatically start talking about marriage and wigging out. Like I am trying to push them together or something. It's funny how I can be close friends with them and all is fine and we go swimming and drink beer and the kids play together and we babysit for each other and what not, but then Sherri enters the picture and the whole dynamic changes because here is a single version of me (it is shocking how much Sherri and I are alike in ALL aspects except physical, she is taller, a little heavier and has that whole natural beauty thing going on). So I guess whether or not men and women can be just friends depends on many different factors. I am happily married, so I am safe, but here comes the single woman and all bets are off, even though she is engaged to be married. I guess it is allright to hit on her because she isn't married yet and her fiance appears to be a total loser!

Sarah "it" is a relationship.After my short and miserable first marriage and with a child,I was pretty sure the ship had sunk for me,I wasn't even looking for any kind of relationship,when I did go out it was to gay bars with Brucifer and Jimmy Sue."It" just showed up at my mothers door of her old house like a box of burning shit.

Aw, that's so romantic! :)

tim is actually friends with leslie who is a friend of agatha's. how's that for 3 degrees of separation? we went out again last thursday and saturday. thursday we went and saw music - a blues festival and benefit. i met his friend matt for the first time. then he invited me to a going-away party for some friends of his i met once back in october at matt and his girlfriend emma's house. there were like 50 people there, it was a really great house and a fun party. all of them were tim's friends. he has A LOT of friends, and they were all so... so cool and nice and hip and educated and fun. aside from feeling somewhat like i was under a microscope ("oh, so you must be sarah..."), they were all very welcoming to me. tonight we're having dinner with my friends angela and raymond (friends from hawaii). it's cool. there's no sense of urgency. he's really laid back. we haven't had any Serious Talks or anything. we just enjoy each other's company and i guess we're experimenting with kissing. that's about it. it's fine and thus far gloriously and surprisingly undramatic and uncomplicated.

That's a fantastic start. Way to go!!

thanks. btw, i wanted to ask some advice. tim's birthday is on the 10th. he and a disproportionately large number of his friends have birthdays in february, so they're having a like an 8-person birthday party this saturday. of course i'm going. what should i get him? he's really into music (all kinds, but mostly indie pop stuff) and plays guitar and is very creative in a variety of ways. i want to get him something more meaningful or suggestive* than i would have gotten him if we were Just Friends/Not Kissing. but then i couldn't think of anything to get him anyway, whether we are Just Friends or More Than Friends. * by suggestive, i don't mean sexual, i just mean suggesting intimacy. so help me out here.

isnt SxSW coming up soon? perhaps that would be too much of a committment and maybe tix arent even on sale yet.

Is there a CD that you both like that maybe the music says what you want to say? Sorry, I am not very good with ideas right now.

goat-eyelid cockring.

well, that's a GREAT idea... i would get him a music wristband for SxSW but they're not on sale yet, i don't think. of course, i'm getting the fuck out of this town that week. mexico or new orleans or, ahem, california. anywhere but here.

outta curiosity, how many of the regulars on this BBS know, or have meet others (from here) And, does every one with one or two obvious exceptions live in So.Cal.? I only ask because, with the exception of myself and acouple of friends that ive told of this place i seem to be the only one north of cal.

Uh try New Zealand. : ) You can't get much further away than that!

well...pay no mind to her. we're all actually born of the same mum and dad. Sheila and Satan's Severed head. so. we know each other too well. we slept in teh same bed as children and nate was always doing the "Dutch oven" to the rest of us.

I haven't seen sem's brown eye, though.

We live all over the place, kev. Pretty evenly dispersed across the US, and other piddly little countries.

You never asked.

actually im the only SoCal dood, to my knowledge.

sarah, does tim have a website? maybe you should get him something related to playing guitar, like sheet music or nice strings or something, and have it somehow imply that you want to play with him. i'm not sure how you would do that, but i don't know anything about being a musician, so whatever. happy kissing.

oh, stoopid me, i guess i should have paid more attention to my reading, eh?

i've met agatha, heather, nate, antigone (and ingrid), sem, and sheila.

And Czarina,didn't you?

no. we *just* missed each other. very sad.

I haven't met anybody yet, but that is probably my fault for not going anywhere. I am too busy and too broke to travel. Otherwise I would be in Austin and Dallas this week and maybe make it to Cali for a baby shower. Then again, with the way things are going for my family in Cali, I may be out there before too long from necessity. Then Patrick would only be a 30 minute drive away. Scary :)

I met Agatha once. When I was pez.

?

Lapis is having a psychotic break. Eri, you and spunk are required to stop and have a bite with the tigster the next time you drive through Dallas. :)

ditto for austin!

I thought you were coming to San Antonio Sarah. We have about a month left here, at best, but you are always welcome!

i am booked solid every weekend through the middle of march now. the first weekend i could come would be march 22nd. argh.

Plan that for here and if we have to leave sooner we will tell you! Hehehe This weekend we will be picking up the circa 1930's pics we had taken of the family and the kids. That and we have to find a new vehicle for Spunky. That will probably take all weekend, too.

tim is taking me to see Cheap Trick next week! admit it. i am *too* cool for you people.

tonight he's taking me out for korean food. saturday is the bbq birthday party. that does not leave me much time for gift shopping. i'm thinking a book, a cd, and a dvd. and a bottle of organic red wine (he's allergic to the sulfites in regular wine).

heh, scratch that. i'm going to get him the LP Cheap Trick Live at the Budokan (he just got a new turntable) and a backgammon game. yes yes, much better. perfect.

That sounds lovely, Sarah. I got a beautiful silver necklace with beads made out of 2000 year old roman glass for my birthday.

"I WANT YOU ... TO WANT ME!" roar roar roar roar Jeeze, I remember that album.

Cheap Trick rule in concert! My friends band opened for them a few times. I think that is a good present, Sarah. Well done.

Pez/ Lapis is a rocking chick. A little shy, which I always enjoy.

shy is cool. recently, i was coming out of a network closet when a woman, who was walking down the hall at the time, wanted to see what was in the closet. she seemed REALLY interested at first. i showed her the rack mount gateways, switches and routers and explained what their functions are and she seemed sort of disappointed. i shrugged it off but later on it dawned on me that she was perhaps feeling a bit frisky. cluelessness and naivete (supply your own pronunciation marks) is also cool. don't downplay the safety net of social retardation.

i'd love to meet czarina, since she lives in the pittsfield-doomstown tri-color area as do i. why not? i bet we could be friends.

i'll kick her ass. who is she?

Glad it aint me. I think she needs to be made aware that the only racks that are getting mounted in any closets are yours.

Good one, Dani!

wow dave. your post threw me for a loop.

Dave, buddy, that girl was probably hoping that there was a dead body or a secret stairwell to a magical land in that closet. You ruined her fantasy.

my guess it was a joke. a bunch of people in her department were probably making fun of the tech department. "what do they DO in that closet anyway?" har har har. it's very common. she was probably sent there on a dare.

or maybe she was frisky (!!!)

Hey Agatha, let me know the next time you come to Portland. We should hang out again. I found out that the bar three blocks from my house just happens to have an upright grand. It's falling apart and some of the keys don't work but now I'm dragging out all my sheet music that I've been wanting to play forever but my keyboard frusterates me. The piano I found has good bones and the idea of going down there with an armload of sheet music and some beer money and playing all night is extremely appealing.

I'm finally taking a letterpress class at the beginning of March, possible a mimeograph workshop next week. I'm really excited. If I can figure out how to do linocut again I could do a zine without electricity or staples. Fancy arty book-style zines.

that rules! who's teaching the letterpress class? you should make sure to take the bookbinding classes they have there, the woman that teaches them is very cool, and a really good teacher. i've been looking for a working mimeograph machine for many years now.

my rack isn't big enough to be mounted in any closet, dani. sad, but true.

oh agatha. if you swung the other way, i'd happily mount your rack in *my* closet.

You can't kick her ass Agatha, trust me you will go to jail,but there are things...we can do.

I've taken basic and longstitch. Longstich absolutely (fucking) rules, it's so beautiful. It's not a woman teaching those classes anymore though, it's this pretentious asshole named Andrew Huot (not spelled exactly right but I'm a little drunk and it's three in the morning I don't care) who has something really weird about him and I can't figure it out. He's a little slimy. You know what's really weird but not really? Guys are either totally gay or totally straight with nothing between, but girls, there's a few lesbians, a few striaght women but so many of us are bi and we all check each other out and we actually ask our friends to all the time. Like guys have to proive themselves by just ramming it in but I don't know about the rest of you but for me it's all about the expirience and I know I've been drinking a little bit and I'm tired and all so you can like all slam me in the morning if you like but isn't it true?

You know what is funny about that? All of my bi and lesbian friends say the same thing, but none of my straight friends even think about it. I get so much shit from my friends because I am not sexually attracted to women and I have never had the desire to even experiment. Out of all of my friends in Texas, I am the only straight one. Out of my friends in Missouri, we are all straight and these subjects are never brought up. Not even thought about. You just are what you are and you just do what you do. The funny things is that all groups of women that I know will still look at other women and talk about whether or not they were attractive or not.

Exactly, I never hear my straight male friends talking about other guys, "look at him, he's so handsome." "No he's not, he's got a bit of a gut."

Spunky refuses to do that stuff. It is so funny. He says that he doesn't look at other guys, because that's what gay men do. Other men just aren't attractive. It's funny.

it's just that women are so much more attractive than men are. most attractive men are kinda feminine looking (think brad pitt, he's downright pretty) or gay or both. you gotta be full on gay to check out other guys like you check out women. that's why gay dudes are so over the top about clothes and image. straight dudes, especially the ones over about 25 - 30 years old, aren't concerned about how their butt looks in those jeans because they don't check out other guys. 2 completely different mindsets. anyway, i don't know what that woman was up to. it may have been completely innocent. i just thought it was amusing that if there was some other intent on her part, it was hours afterward when i thought about the situation that way. some people go about the day knowing that (real or imagined) they are hot stuff and they will attract most of the people they run into. if i were such a person, i may have left the encounter with a completely different story to tell. over the years, i've trained myself to stop looking for that spark of mutual attraction mostly because it never manifested and i don't need any more random moments of self-disappointment.

awwwwwwwwww

sex is sex, as long as it feels right.

So Agatha don't go breaking your foot up Daves ass,he's an innocent.If you want me to do something,just ask.I have two phone cards.

I'll let you know, J. Thanks for the offer. I know he's innocent. He's good like that.