REVENGE Why did you do it?: REVENGE

By A pissed off American on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 03:24 pm:

    REVENGE. Hold on to that thought. Go to bed thinking it. Wake up chanting it. Because nothing less than revenge is called for today.

    Give this to our enemies: it was a brilliant, coordinated attack. The targets were icons of America’s might: the World Trade Center, which sits in the financial heart of the United States, and the Pentagon, the headquarters of our military. The weapons used were our airliners, filled with our fellow countrymen who, at knife point, were made part of the payload. The image of United Flight 175 slamming into the World Trade Center will stay in our nightmares and the nightmares of our children. The knowledge that our fellow citizens jumped to their deaths rather than burn in the twin towers will haunt us. The smell of the fires from the Pentagon will linger long after the smoke clears. And the grief for our dead will be deep and enduring.

    But give this to us, the people of the United States: We will recover. We will bury our dead and then, with unwavering resolve, we will go after the villains. We will demand nothing less than a full and deadly response. We have been merciful in the past with the terrorist thugs who have attacked this country. We have condemned them and imposed economic sanctions, but we have not hunted them down with murder in our eyes.

    Yesterday’s attacks, however, amount to a declaration of war against the United States, a sneak attack even more devastating than the one on Pearl Harbor 50 years ago. At least the Japanese were honorable enough to attack a military target. This time, our enemies went after civilians, among them children. In war, there are casualties. We had our number yesterday. It is time to inflict casualties of our own. And it shouldn’t be proportional or just enough to send a message. Our response should be the final word.

    To the cowardly zealots responsible, know this: Do not judge our commitment to your destruction by the strangely careful and neutral tone of President Bush’s speech last night. His speech did not begin to capture the righteous anger American citizens are feeling right now. In the days that are coming, as the dead are finally counted, our rage will only build. And everytime we look at the skyline of New York City, or step into an airplane, or turn our calendars to nine, one-one, we will remember your actions, and crave only one thing: blood for blood.

    Yesterday belonged to you. You hurt us the way you had hoped. But tomorrow will belong to us.

By Nate on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 06:21 pm:

    we americans are hypocrites.

    don't get me wrong, my blood is full of hate. it boils in me. i honestly desire the full force of the american might used to turn afganistan into a shimering plain of glass.

    but it's wrong.

    these are not cowardly zealots-- people who die in wars against oppression should never be called cowards.

    we, democracy, have caused much more heinous crimes. the civilian deaths we have caused are as inexcusable. we fire bombed dresden and tokyo in wwii-- nearly 500,000 civilians died.

    more recently-- our policies and actions against muslim nations have caused what we see now. children die by the thousands in iraq because of our sanctions. our response to the embassy bombings in africa was to launch cruise missles from ships, taking the lives of women and children in shanty towns. destroying a factory that manufactures medicine for half of africa. how cowardly is that?

    yes, i'm pissed. and yes, we should unleash hell on whoever is responsble. american lives are worth ten of theirs, let their casualties reflect that.

    but let us not cloud why this has happened. our racist policies and our support of the israeli occupation is a mini skirt so short you can see the lips of our big, wet american cunt hanging below the hem -- and while this does not excuse the rapist, for chrissakes, what did you expect?

By Eri on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 07:36 pm:

    I have been a pacifist by nature. Anti-confrontational in just about every aspect of my life, until now. I agree with pissed off American. The bible says, an eye for an eye.

    Nothing will ever eradicate the memory of the planes hitting the World Trade Center or the fear in my heart when the Pentagon was hit. This has completely changed my view on my country and myself. I have let others hurt me and pansy wansied my way to forgiveness, and even acceptance.

    I can't do that anymore. I won't do that anymore.

    I am hearsick through and through, but my resolve is solid.

    I don't care what anyone has done to anyone, there is no excuse for this. No acceptance. There is nothing that can explain this away to my moral satisfaction.

    The time to act is now, and action needs to be strong. We cannot give up this fight for any reason.

    This war could very likely outlast Vietnam, but so be it. This cannot be explained away. It cannot be forgotten.

    The world has changed, and if we don't fight long and hard and strategically, then I don't want my children to grow up in this world and raise their children in this world. I refuse to live in a world of fear. I refuse to say this is all O.K.

    If you want to retaliate for wrongs done against you you DO NOT kill the innocent without warning.

    I never hurt anyone with force in my life. Not even my ex-husband who was looking for a gun to kill me, and (more importantly) my daughter. I have been a chicken.
    I am done.

    My skirt may be short, but when I bend over you can read "Take a good look, because while you are looking up my skirt there is a gun aimed at your head. You have got 2 seconds to pray."

By Trace on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 08:23 pm:

    One thing to bear in mind. Afganastan has been warned. They got the chance to flee, as most of them are doing now. Those in the trade tower and the pentagon did not have that luxury, were not given that chance.
    This is not returning in kind.

By J on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 08:50 pm:

By Trace on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 09:00 pm:

    No one said it was going to be easy. Not everything in life is easy, But it can be done.
    Stop making this guy into some kind of god

By Antigone on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 09:42 pm:

    "I agree with pissed off American. The bible says, an eye for an eye."

    There are no Atheists in fox holes.

    There are no Atheists in terrorist camps, either.

By wisper on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 05:11 pm:

    :) @ Antigone

    Stop making this guy into some kind of god
    indeed. And also, stop making him into some
    kind of plane hijacking WTC attack scapegoat
    trend too. Fuck i'm sick of hearing that name.
    NO ONE KNOWS SHIT... yet.

    Remember a few years ago when some crazy
    dude burst into the Senate building and just
    started shooting? I watched the whole thing
    go down on tv. While the police where still
    arriving and no-one was in or out of the
    building yet, and no-one knew what was
    happening, just that something bad was
    going on in the senate,... i heard the
    newscaster say, on live global coverage:
    "Well, i think we can just go ahead and safely
    assume that this is the work of terrorists."
    This wasn't some local station either, this was
    CNN. They had a fancy title graphic to that
    effect on screen in a matter of minutes as
    well. And it was just one lone crazy fuckup.

    quick America! blame someone somewhere
    so you can reduce their homeland to a parking
    lot! hurry up, the week is almost over! !

By patrick on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 12:01 pm:

    all of our options at this point suck.

    we can't wash our hands of the middle east.

    they keep talking about bin laden, but no one is talking about Saddam. He has as much, if not more reason to facilitate this. We we're bombing his country right up until last week.

    Please wisper, you're shooting fish in a barrel.

    Most thinking people are concerned as hell. The gov't has the highest approval rating ever in the Bush administration. Bipartisianship is at an all time low. They aren't going to sit on the smoldering fires and think about the "right" think to do. If Vietnam had this kind of public support going in, it may have never turned into the disaster it became.

    The media has a hungry american appetite to feed. So feed they do. In a time of uncertaintity, Id rather be alongside my countrymen than not. Either that or in Australia. Cat get ready.

By Nate on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 12:44 pm:

    we have policy by poll, and a unianimous media presence that hands people their opinions. we've left democracy behind.

    there is nothing to bomb in afghanistan.

    as much as my gut wants destruction, it is obvious that violence perpetuated will not solve anything. our violence caused this violence. more of our violence will accomplish what? tell me trace. tell me czarina. tell me anyone who would have us strike in vengence. what good will it serve?

    this act was caused by a handfull of men with box cutters and a belief in their cause so strong that they are where willing to die. can we bomb with such granularity that there aren't 18 men left?

    perhaps bin laden is in his bunker hoping we bomb soon? perhaps we should make him a martyr?

    if a real jihad is called? then what? the fastest growing religon in the world has a divine order to fight anyone who oppresses them.

    we oppress them.

    they get beautiful gardens and flowing rivers if they die in battle.

    we lose our freedom.

    i've seen children throw bicycles into the street after they've fallen from them. is it the bicycle's fault? are we children?

    this sudden solidarity is scary.

    war on a people for the actions of 18 men is wrong. war on a people whose country has already been destroyed by the ussr's vietnam war.


    and why? why hate america?

    what does bin laden want to achieve?

    and what is he doing that the us government wouldn't do?

    why are we so outraged? we, hypocrites.

    our own foreign policy turned against us. our way of dealing with rogue nations: if the people suffer, they'll overthrow their government.

    we, the world's most powerful rogue nation. we have tasted our own medicine.

    killing bin laden will do nothing but make his cause stronger. bombing afghanistan will make innocents suffer and make bin laden's cause stronger.

    we're fools. and hypocrites.

    bin laden's organization is tribal. bin laden doesn't sit on a throne and give orders. tribes work autonomously under a common goal.

    killing bin laden will make things worse.


    happy new year, israel.

By patrick on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 12:51 pm:


    we're emotional.

    as the dust has settled my anger has subsided as well.

    im no longer saying "carpet bomb" anyone.

    id be willing to bet bin laden has an infrastructure inplace that the minute he is caught or killed, simulataneous acts happen everywhere, not just the US but within NATO and our allies.

By droopy on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 01:15 pm:

By patrick on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 01:50 pm:

    think about this.....

    the wreckage in PA. Has ANYONE seen ANY part of that plane?

    All you see is a wooded area and piles charred dirt.

    They shot that plane down. They have been testing the waters to see how the public will swallow it, saying they had "orders" to shoot down a plane heading for a public target.

    The thing is...and the proof is in the come we havent seen a god damn piece of that plane? How did wreckage get 6 miles apart? It was briefly mentioned that witnesses saw fire in the sky. But they gave us the hero story instead.


    Because it was shot down and burned to pieces and they can't even cop to it.

    Im not saying it was wrong to shoot it down, but if they can't even cop to that...what exactly do you expect to happen from here on out?

By Czarina on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 01:54 pm:

    What lovely,warm words,from someone we all know is such a nice,warm hearted,kindly man.

    You need to broaden your mind,and understand that this is not a revenge tactic.This is a global warning to all terrorists,who would contemplate such heinous crimes against freedom.

    That very freedom,that enables you to voice your opinion here.

    Blasting away at innocent people,sickens me.I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that.

    But it seems you are saying,that if say,Timothy McVay was hiding out at your house,just leave him there,because we don't want to hurt Nate.Or would it not be,that by the very act of Nate hiding out/supporting McVay,he has now become a collabarator/supporter of McVays actions?

By Antigone on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 03:21 pm:

    "What lovely,warm words,from someone we all know is such a nice,warm hearted,kindly man."

    Nate is actually quite different in person than the image he presents on these boards, Czarina. At least he was when I met him. It could have been a clever ruse, though. :)

    "The thing is...and the proof is in the come we havent seen a god damn piece of that plane?"

    Methinks you're eating wacky pudding, patrick. The plane apparently hit the ground at a 45 degree angle. The force would have pulverized it to tiny bits. That happens all the time when planes crash into the ground. Also, when planes go down that fast, bits (like engines and wigs) fly off, causing dispersed wreckage and explosions. I'm not saying it wasn't shot down, but the evidence you cite isn't proof.

By Antigone on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 03:35 pm:

    Here is an AP news story on the plane, and pretty good proof that passengers probably took it down.

    Note that one of the hijackers may have had a bomb, which would explain an explosion in the air.

    Also, note the last paragraph. A nice bit 'o' wartime propaganda if I ever read it.

    btw, did you know that Army PsyOps has some people placed at CNN? Not kidding. Common knowledge.

By Nate on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 03:47 pm:

    it seems that i am saying, czarina, is that if timothy mcvay was hiding at my house, it would be wrong to bomb the hell out of california, some random town in arkansas, and a chinese embassy.

    which is how the US reacts.

    perhaps you should broaden your mind, czarina. there is nothing that can be accomplished by killing women and children in afghanistan. nothing but the wishes of bin laden, because that will surely align more muslims to his cause.

    to respond with violence to this is the action of children.

    which, perhaps, is even unfair to children. oswald jr. and pez both seem to understand what you do not.

    it is the action of spoiled adults.

    we've been killing innocents for years and years. retaliation has begun. for us to continue our acts of violence will not solve anything.

    our freedom. our democracy. we choose our leaders. the countries we bombs, the civilians who die there do not have any say in what their governments do.

    we might as well bomb france for as much as the people who would die are responsible for the actions of 18 men.

By wisper on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 03:55 pm:

    the very fisrt thing they reported about that
    plane was that it had been presumed hijacked
    and had been shot down. 15 minutes later "it
    was hijacked and it crashed".

    In 10 minutes i heard both stories from the
    same news source. Decide what you want to

By wisper on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 04:05 pm:

    nate is dead on.

By patrick on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 04:10 pm:

    usually though antigone....there is some wreckage.

    And that doesnt explain why wreckage was found 6 miles.

    Along with the witness claiming to see fire in the sky, they saw other planes..fighters or not.

    Considering they had jet fighters up just moments after the one hit the pentagon its safe to say they intercepted the other jet.

    The hijackers may or may not have had a bomb onboard....but in keeping with consistancy of the other attacks, no bomb was necessary.

    When the Alaska air plane plowed into the sea off CA last year....that plane hit at nearly a 90 degree angle and was going at a tremendous rate of speed. I saw wreckage from that plane.

    Im just saying its suspect thats all....

By Czarina on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 04:16 pm:

    Wait,my apologies.My comment about "the warm,caring guy",was in reference to Saddam Hussein's statement.

    When I went back and reread my post,I'd seen that Patrick had posted above me,and I almost went back,to clarify my post at that time,thinking Patrick might think it was directed at him.

    I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

    And Nate,I don't know what the answer is,either.And I agree,to a certain extent with you,that forceful retalation will cause more Muslims to join the cause.But I honestly believe,that there are those factions out there,who will join the cause anyway.Whatever we do,will not change their opinions of us.

    And,considering that these folks are all willing to die for their cause,indicates to me,that scare tactics won't work.

    I don't want to see innocent people die.And just cause we get Bin Laden,won't stop terrorism,I know that,there are plenty more out there,ready to take his place.

    Whether or not we should have been offering our support to select Mideastern countries,now becomes a moot point.

    Maybe we should all write our names and addresses down on 4 by 6 inch index cards,and mail them to the terrorists,and they can have drawings,to decide who to hit next.

    Or maybe,we could put signs up in our yards,that say:

    "Bomb me,I won't fight back"

By The Watcher on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 04:33 pm:

    I have offten thought those who are anti gun should post signs on their lawns.

    No guns in house. Rob at will.

By Antigone on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 04:41 pm:

    "usually though antigone....there is some wreckage."

    But, there is wreckage. It's in little bits strewn around a 25ft wide, 10 ft deep hole.

    "And that doesn't explain why wreckage was found 6 miles."

    Sure it does.

    300 mph is about the speed of a cruising aircraft.

    Wreckage 6 miles away means parts could have fallen off the plane 1 minute 12 seconds before crashing.

    Actually, if the plane was going down at a 45 degree angle, it'd be going even faster. The parts flying down would slow down, 'cause they're not being pushed by jet engines. This would make the plane and the fallen off bits land farther apart.

    Just because you can't imagine it, doesn't mean it ain't so. Having been a physics major for two years in college means I might be able to imagine a few more possibilities, but I still don't know what really happened.

    I'm not arguing with you, patrick. Discounting possibilities on so little evidence means you're already convinced, so there's little point.

By Nate on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 04:44 pm:

    i'm afraid. i'm afraid and very, very sad.

    the real issues will be covered up for decades, and we will continue our support of terrible acts.

    it is horrible and it is tragic, but when the events of 9/11 are held up against the actions of the US government, in the name of freedom, in the past 50 years, there is no comparison.

    we need to maintain prespective. people don't want to die in order to kill americans for no reason. they have reasons. they have strong reasons.

    but what can we do?

    if we unleash hell on afghanistan, there will be worse unleashed on the US.

    there are over 100 soviet backpack nuclear bombs unaccounted for.

By Czarina on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 05:00 pm:

    Nuclear holocaust terrifies me.

By Antigone on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 05:10 pm:

    This is the most lucid article I've read on the subject. Yes, it's from Salon... Sue me!

By Antigone on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 05:13 pm:

    If 100 nuclear bombs exploded in the US, then the standard of living for those left behind would be about as bad as....hmmmmm...rural Afghanistan, maybe?

By Antigone on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 08:32 pm:

    Here are some even more insightful letters to the editor about the article.

By dave. on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 08:47 pm:

    regardless of last week's events, i still think,
    and always have thought that it's the civilized
    world's responsibility and in it's best interests,
    long term, to unseat brutal regimes such as the
    taliban. for me, it's a no-brainer. but we also
    need to be more generous with our riches and we
    simply HAVE to do something about population.
    something besides starting wars and perpetuating
    misery. there's no excuse for widespread
    suffering. not anymore, dammit. fuck everyone
    slaving away for the benefit of a few.

    i'm so tired of saying this but i can't help it.

By Trace on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 09:17 pm:

    Russia was as much to blame for afganistan as us.
    Isreal is as much to blame for palestine as us.
    palestine is as much to blame for isreal as us.
    We hear all of this tragedy stories about isreali's shooting palestine children for no good reason, or america selling them apache helicopters sothey can bomb palestinian schools etc etc ect.
    I guarentee you that if the role was reversed (and I beleive it was no less then 50 years ago)
    then palestinians would be just as bad to isreali's (which they were, we just did not have the tool of the internet to instantly look it up).


    You know what, never mind. Look at these figures, they speak for themselves. Click on economy.

    Here is the palestinians numbers:
    click on economy.

    WTF? Who looks like they need help here?

    When are we going to stay out of this shit?
    When are we going to learn?
    That in no way, regardles of what Nate said, or Sadam (OK< I will beleive the words of that jack ass about how bad the US is) has said EXCUSES killing 5,000.
    There is no justification.

    There are also no easy answers.

By Nate on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 09:27 pm:

    nothing excuses killing anyone.

    which is one great reason why we shouldn't start killing more people.

By patrick on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 12:04 pm:

    one aspect of being wise trace, is being able to admit when, even a tyrrant has a point, and saddam has a few of them. US presidents have orchestrated as much killing as Saddam has, if not more so why you are so quick to accept the words of our leaders and so quick to discount others is beyond me. Im not talking about the specific numbers he quotes, but the general points of his letter.

    Dave the US is by far the largest contributor to the UN Humanitarian Aide, "providing 80 million of the 140 million annual budget" of which a tremendous amount went to Afghanistan in the last year. All this according to the LA times. I suppose we could do more....they were able to round oup 40 billion real damn quick.

By M on Wednesday, September 19, 2001 - 05:13 pm:

By Antigone on Wednesday, September 19, 2001 - 06:27 pm:

By Nate on Wednesday, September 19, 2001 - 07:36 pm:

    i was reading today about how the leader of the taliban is asking the clerics to choose a direction, one direction being to call jihad.

    a jihad has not been called against the US or Israel. not a real one.

    the implications of this escape most non-muslim americans, i think.

    even some muslim americans, maybe.

By patrick on Wednesday, September 19, 2001 - 07:52 pm:

    how can you determine which ones are real?

    the Taliban, as Ive read it, in the past, did declare one against, Israel and Russia

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