no way in hades! Are you stupid?: no way in hades!

By pez on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 01:15 pm:

    "an estimated 17 million children and adults in the u.s. suffer from attention deficit disorder. yet add is poorly understood and often incorrectly treated. in 'healing add: the breakthrough program that allows you to see and heal the 6 types of add,' dr. daniel amen provides several game plans--with and without drugs--for living with the disorder and diminishing its symptoms. from g.p. putnam's sons, $27.95 in bookstores or from on the web."

    hrm. nice idea. are we all supposed to think the same now, too?

    many of the world's greatest thinkers are suspected to have/had add. without these people we wouldn't have the mona lisa or electricity.

    there was little or no interest in add until the early eighties. sure, there were a few hyperactive people around, but that doesn't mean it's a huge deal. it seems that anytime a child is troubled these days and there's no other reason why, they'll simply label the child as afflicted with add and treat with ritalin.

    lately i've become more and more dissatisfied with the system: the government has to find ways to shut down any and all deviants, whether violent or peaceful. we're constantly doing things for the military, but if we go to war, it wouldn't be the army that matters since everyone already has atom bombs.

    what this country needs is better funding for the school system and to cut funding for campaigns. it seems that money controls everything these days, how people behave and such. i used to think that i'd move to another country once i got out of college, but now i have a different plan.

    i used to read about kibbutzim, independent farming communes in israel. you grow your own food, there's always someone to watch the kids, and nobody has to go to work. if a few of these were set up around the u.s. and actually worked, people might realized that they can survive without being virtual slaves to the government. people did this in the past, so what's stopping us now?

By patrick on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 03:10 pm:

    ahh the impetuousness and idealism of youth.

    everything you have said, most of us have thought and/or recognized before. The difference is, eventually, you realize that you can't consume yourself completely with these issues and tha frankly, you can't make a difference. You can only make a difference in your own life. Otehrwise you might as well run yourself into the brick wall, repeatedly.

    I'm sure there are farming communes here to. hippies were known for this sort of thing. In fact i know and have been tone in Goletta CA called Zambodia. The dumped-up bus still sits there growing weeds and what not, and Russell works at a nearby wholesale nursey.

    whats stopping you from living on a commune now? nothing. but i think you'll find getting your life under the radar more difficult than you think.

    yes I'd say we are gearing up for some sort of military action. the cards seems stacked that way. but thats nothing new. and those of us with clear heads have known forever that ritalin/add is bunch of shit. im not so sure it's so much about mind control as it is about selling drugs and making money.

By Rhiannon on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 03:20 pm:

    Patrick, you kill me. How are old you? 25?

    How old am I? 22?

    Never mind.

By patrick on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 03:34 pm:

    im 26. and yes i know i sound like an old fart. but i swear i feel like my life is on the fast fast forward.

    sometimes i find, when im talking to someone, say on chat or whathave you, above marriage/love/dating etc. i find myself saying the same things that some of the older married folks in their 30s-40s just realized.

By pez on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 04:21 pm:

    i really do want to change the world. i don't want to spend my life in an office. i don't want to pay $120 an hour for a psychiatrist to solve my problems. i want to change the system so people have more control over what they eat and how they live.

    people often don't see the fruits of their labors these days, they're merely cogs of the wheel. if people lived by their work, such as farming weaving and such, life could be simpler and maybe more enjoyable. no high stress deadlines, no traffic. sure, there would be less material poissesions, but the overall lifestyle would be a lot healthier, through good fresh food and hard work.

    i wonder what even my great-grandparents would think if they were still young and saw the world today. i think they'd be both amazed and shocked at the breakneck pace we're taking.

By JERRY WHEELER on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 05:16 pm:

    Ssssssssswing and a missssss!!

By cyst on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 05:27 pm:

    god, my ex-boyfriend sure looked hot after a few months on kibbutz nirim. (

    he came back a tan and muscular irrigation expert.

    I think all young men should work on kibbutzim. oh, yeah. mmm.


    hey, patrick. have you ever been to spaceland or the hollywood knitting factory? my boyfriend's band will probably be playing at one of those places in june. I think I want to go.

By cyst on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 05:40 pm:

    my ex would not have described kibbutz life as "nobody has to go to work." everybody goes to work, except work and home are the same place. he worked really hard all the time (except during the sabbath, of course).

    anyway, there are communes in the u.s., pez. I know there are a few outside eugene, oregon (at least one in veneta, I think). I knew someone who lived on one. he says the group politics became unbearable fast. here's a 27-y-o one:

    and didn't pol pot have all his city folks try this shit out? as I recall, it didn't work too well. capitalism and urbanism really aren't so bad, if you ask me.

By patrick on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 05:41 pm:

    yes to both. the knitting factory is right across the street from my work. spaceland is a few blocks from my house in silverlake.

    knitting factory is ok, if you like paying through the nose for drinks. Its pretty new, stemming from the NYC locale. The cover is always overpriced, and the place is kinda designed like an Ikea store. tthe place opened 6 months later was supposed to, people i know who worked there didn't get paid...apparently they are trying to make up for lost dollars.

    spaceland is pretty ok. its the epicenter of silverlake hipness. been there numerous times.
    spaceland used to be a gay disco in late 70s and 80s called Dreams of LA. In the smoking lounge they have these neato satellite dishes over the groups of chairs and tables, and play weird sound tricks on you as the guy's whisper 10 ft across from you comes through loud and clear, yet you cant hear the person next to you.

    I also get really ripped when im at spaceland because they have good beer on tap and these big ass mugs. I order "2 big ass Bass please".

    what's the band name?

    not that he may have control over it, but for what it's worth , spaceland is a lot better of a place, and most likely would draw a bigger crowd.

    id trust your taste and would be delighted to come out for a drink and see some new music and meet you.

By patrick on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 05:56 pm:

    just for fun, i was thinking of all the bands ive seen at spaceland.......

    lets see....RL Burnside twice, T Model Ford, Paul Jones.....all Fat Possum artists...

    I saw Judah Bauer there.....seen W.A.C.O there numerous times...they are my local favs. I saw Rob Zabresky former guy of Possum Dixon who also joined Lutefisk another great LA band that re surged out of the ashes recently.


    I saw Silverapples, Trans Am, Wendy & Carl

    I saw Servotron, Seely and .Subsonics...three of my favorite Atlanta bands.

    and who else......hmmmmm

By Platypus on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 07:27 pm:

    They were talking about Fat Possum artists on NPR this morning...I also hear that SoCal finally got to bear their share of the rolling blackouts...heh heh. Revenge is mine. Or...something. Anyway.

    There are ooodles of communes in the US--I can think of seven within about 30 miles of me, so you just kind of have to look a bit. Actually, the coolest hippie project I've heard about recently is the permaculture institute at Point Reyes--I have a couple friends who work there and it is apparently very awesome if you ever want to visit, Pez.

By patrick on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 07:37 pm:

    not around here. LA is doing just fine. Its San Bernadino, Riverside, and San Diego counties that are gonna get it.

    i picked one of my favorite Fat Possums disks not too long ago...this late cat named Asie Payton. the guy was dirt poor, lived in a shotgun shack with no water, no electricity or anything. He was a dirt farmer....plowed the fields when he could.

    He died in what...99 i think...Fat Possum kept trying to persuade him to come out, play, be recorded...but he wouldnt have any of it. He finally cameout and played at one of the local "gigs" they have at one of the auto garages there in Holly Springs, MS and then they got some tape of him at Junior Kimbrough's club. Just enough for one CD. it's good, raw, honest, sad.

    RL Burnside's popularity, due in part to Jon Spencer bringin him outta the sticks of MS, has helped Fat Possum tremendously. There's so much good shit coming outta there man. I've been tempted many a time to pack the truck (if i had one), load the drums and head to MS just to rock out with some of these guys.

    Pipe dream i know...but man.

By dave. on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 07:51 pm:

    how many hippies does it take to screw in a light bulb?

By JERRY WHEELER on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 10:31 pm:


By dave. on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 11:44 pm:

    wrong. hippies screw in dirty sleeping bags.

By JERRY WHEELER on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 12:13 am:



By pez on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 03:00 am:

    what i meant was nobody has to drive to work. work is to live, and directly attached to survival, using skills that are based on thousands of years of experience. the soil. the water. the wind. it is everywhere, filling your apple a peach broccoli.

    i wish i could read hebrew. i have a book on hold at the library, but who knows how long it'll take till i get the call.

By cyst on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 01:13 pm:

    a few hippies can choose to live the natural life on their little communes, but other people have still got to go to work for them at the

    electric companies to keep the hippies' power going,

    at the slaughterhouses and shoe companies to keep birkenstocks on their feet,

    at the paint companies so they can have their brightly colored interior walls,

    at the tool factory to make them their plows and shovels and stuff,

    in the trucks that deliver the things they need,

    at the gas company, fire station, gas stations, hospitals, etc.

    trying to remove oneself from the economy is not only impossible but kind of mean-spirited. what if the economy collapsed? could everyone in the cities move to the country and have a bucolic little life on the farm? uh, no.

By Antigone on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 02:17 pm:

    How can removing oneself from the economy be mean-spirited?

By pez on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 03:10 pm:

    actually, it can be a method of survival if the economy collapsed. factories stop working, electricity stops working, but you've got food.

    i was thinking that there would be very little electricity required. there could be enough solar power generated off the roof that could power a computer, a couple of lights, and maybe a computerized loom and a radio. probably a telephone too, for emergencies.

    when people need to visit the outside world, they can take a couple of bikes to get into town, or if there's more to go, a small one-horse wagon.

    at least one person would be certified in first aid and cpr, herb treatments, perhaps with training as a midwife. the hospital would only be for a couple of routine checkups and emergencies.

    keep a few sheep and grow some cotton, to be spun, dyed and woven for clothing. shoes can be made of cotton canvas dipped in latex for a sole.

    why is trying to make a good living could be completely organic, so there'd be little or no pollution. have a huge composting system underneath the buildings (composting creates a certain degree of heat, which in turn could keep the buildings warm to a certain extent).

    it might be a good place for troubled children to go, to get away from abusive families and to avoid homelessness.

By Cat on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 03:58 pm:

    Having lived on a commune, I can tell you there is no shoe-making happening. Unless you call a bong pipe, a shoe.

    While you can escape from civilisation, you can't escape from human nature.

    Pez, your post was quite funny really.

By patrick on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 04:17 pm:

    yeah a lot of that is completely naive.

By Cat on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 04:46 pm:

    Not that there's anything wrong with being naive and idealistic.

By patrick on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 05:22 pm:

    no, not at all

    helps balance out the rest of us who are jaded.

By cyst on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 05:44 pm:

    patrick, what's your e-mail address?

    "unless you call a bong pipe a shoe."

    that's funny!

By pez on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 05:45 pm:

    believe me, i'd rather be naive and idealistic than jaded. there's more fun in that.

    people talk about hell on earth, and i don't want that. isn't it ok to try and get a little heaven on earth?

    if so many things go wrong with the current system, then why don't we get there and change the fucking system rather than paying psychiatrists $120 an hour? it makes absolutely no sense!

    i really want to help people, but everything i want to do drive my mother absolutely insane. told her about wanting to work in the peace corps, she goes ballistic. how about a homeless shelter and she throws a fit. you'll get killed she says, you'll get raped. you'll be imprisoned in russia because putin thinks you're a spy.

    i really want to make the earth a better place, even for just a moment. is that too much to ask?

By pez on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 05:50 pm:

    and the weed issue:

    tried it once, it was fun, but the burning sensation in the back of my throat was enough to make me decide that i don't like it. besides, if you think i'm "naive and idealistic" now, just wait until i'm "stoned and stupid".

By crimson on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 06:02 pm:

    your idealism isn't lost on me. or oswald, for that matter. you're asking some of the right questions. i figure that just because i'm a jaded fuck doesn't mean the rest of the world has to be.

    i've done the communal living gig. if i found the right people, i'd probably do it again. but i'd be doing it for different reasons this time around.

By patrick on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 06:05 pm:

By patrick on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 06:34 pm:

    pez when i was your age, 17, 18, 19...i was asking a lot of the same questions you are. However for last 6 or 7 years i have gained tremendous life experience. I have seen sides of humanity that i had been semi sheltered from.

    Eventually a sense of futility dawned on me. So rather than try and change the world I work on myself.

    I still get extremely (and futily) frustrated with the world at times. I want to throw a brick at every SUV driver, yank them out of their cars and lecture them on why they are selfish fucks for example.

    but ultimately human nature will win.

    someone once said to me "you know, humans are the dirtiest animals on this planet".

    he wasn't speaking the literal so much as the figurative.

    The idealism of youth is what helps keep the fat cats on their toes and when the social climate is right, can be very effective at change.

By cyst on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 07:29 pm:

    don't worry about your mom. you can't let her stop you from growing up, doing what you want to do, making your own mistakes. if you let her run your life, you'll just end up resenting her. neither of you should want this. go and join the peace corps.

    if you go to the former soviet union, though, you'll be more likely to work on banking systems than agricultural methodology. I used to live in ukraine and hang out with peace corps workers there. ukrainians already know all about living without power and plumbing, and making the beets and cabbage they grow last all year long. really, it's not quite as fun as it sounds.

By Div on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 08:16 pm:

    nobel is your dream, but make sure you have the strength and knowledge that you'll need to survive.

    I work in a system designed to help those who cant help themselves. I went into it for the best of reasons, and with little education.

    It can suck the life out of you sometimes.......the people, the system itself...
    So many days I come home feeling guilty about my pretty little house, my comfy life, my disgust at those who resist a helping hand, my hatred of the attitude of my co-workers. Cyst is right, its not fun, whether its in some downtrodden country, or in your own back yard. Be sure you're up for it. Sacrifice and nobility are wonderful things, if you have the inner resources to deal with the roadblocks and stumbling posts and deadly attitudes that can wear you down.

    Tell your mom that rape and murder exist take your chances wherever you go. And if you really wanted to do it, for the right reasons in your heart, no mom on earth would stop you.

    (all said with love)

By Div on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 08:34 pm:

    Hey, sorry about that last stuff.

    It was one of those shitty days at work.

    I forgot to tell you about the successes too. There aren't as many as we'd like, but they make the work worthwhile just often enough to keep us going.

By pez on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 01:27 am:

    actions speak louder than words.

    road rage is mother nature's answer to too much traffic. do you believe in darwin?

    i had a creepy incident at work a few weeks ago (i believe i posted about it)...this guy was stalking me and got kicked out of the store. i was afraid he'd wait for me to come out and then rape me.

    i'm not too fond of my job. i like my boss and my coworkers, but i'd hate to sell shoes for the rest of my life. i've been reading so much lately, zines about people dissatisfied with the current system.

    the us dollar used to be backed by gold. real gold. now it's backed by maybe 10 cents of gold per dollar. what will happen if the economy crashes? who will eat and who will starve? the only people that will eat every day work hard for a living, farming and such. will a stockbroker eat? will a teacher eat? unless a skill can be applied for a trade for food, that person won't eat unless someone else is charitable.

    our society appears so concrete, so stable, that we can take it for granted, but it stands almost completely on faith. when people lose faith in society and demand that they get their dollar's worth of gold, society and government as we know it will fall. and the united states has the furthest to fall.

By heather on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 03:08 am:

    um. what makes gold valuable?

    same as what makes paper valuable. it's abstract
    baby, we're all just playing house.

    stockbrokers will eat each other. it's a well
    known fact.

By Cat on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 05:00 am:

    Pez, you might get more respect from your mother if you made a definite stand about what you want to do and then stuck to it. If you want to go to Europe, great. If you want to leave home, fine. If you want to join the Peace Corps, sign up. If you want to go live in a commune, OK. If you want to be the hairy lady in a circus, throw down the razor.

    But you have to do some walking instead of talking.

By Daniel ssss on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 09:11 am:

    playing house. makes sense this morning. $120 is cheap for a good shrink. Note I Said Good.

By patrick on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 12:11 pm:

    very sensible div...

    i just read that Portland has the highest concentration of strip bars per capita. Pez i bet your mom blames them damn strip clubs for perverts like that guy.

    road rage i don't believe is nature's answer to traffic. road rage is human nature in a quickfix selfish society that is for some fucked up reason in a rush. People live in bubbles....with power locks and windows. everyone's a bad ass in their car while moving, but stop and step out and everyone is a pussy.

    i don't think mother nature has anything to do with road rage. I think it may be more cultural.

    I gotta side with Cat. I gained the most respect from my mother, after years of battles......once i left, did what i did, on my own, married on my own, bought my own god damn tux, after she declined to help me buy it. She realized that she had two choices...she could continue to try and govern my life, from afar and we could battle battle battle, or she could accept who I am, respect my decisions, whether she likes them or not, and be my friend. Your folks sound like they need to learn this. I think a good start would be to get out of the house. I was so happy when I moved out when I was 19.

By cyst on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 12:31 pm:

    portland strip clubs are great. they may not be clean and well-lighted, but there's never a cover and you can get good beer and bad food for cheap.

    if the economy collapses, it won't necessarily be the pacifist hippies who survive. it'll be the toughest people with the most guns. they'll steal necessities from everyone else.

    in the northwest there are a lot of people who spend most of their time preparing for the end times. they scare me.

By patrick on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 12:42 pm:

    yeah the article in nerve magazine said the strip clubs there have gotten innovative. they all sound like Jumbo's Clown Room here. A fun place.....not so testosterone filled, semi sleezy....but fun. the girls do fun things like pick up dollar bills with their ass and swallow fire and dance to tom waits

By cyst on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 01:16 pm:

    I haven't seen them swallow fire.

By pez on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 01:51 pm:

    i get it.

    actually, that's not all that drive ma mere crazy. i wanted to be a writer. "there's no money in writing poems. try something else." i want to help people. "you can't protect yourself that way." i want to play music. "you're not very good at playing."

    listening to my mother is bad for my mental health. she says i need to get my bachelors asap, when i have no clue what i want to do. right now i'm refusing their help in paying for school because if they pay i'm expected to pick a major and stick with it, no dropped classes, no retakes, no bad grades. so i pay for all my schooling myself, all my clothes myself, most of my food myself. i've payed for all of sylvie's vet appointments and vaccinations and food. she's having her operation tomorrow (spay) and i'm hoping it doesn't drain the bank too much. the only thing my parents do for me anymore is beg me to have dinner at home on my nights off and let me sleep there, really. and nag.

    i've put myself on a spending/saving plan so i can pay for school and books on my own. last year they begged for me to get a fafsa so i could get grants/loans/scholarships and so i did. filled it out as much as i could. then i gave it to my mom and sait that she and me dad needed to fill out the rest. i reminded her several times, but later she got mad at me for never getting the form. "mom, look. there it is, right on top of the computer. i filled out my part." i haven't seen it since.

    i tried to break away once, but my parents told me that my reasons were stupid and that i'd never make it.

    i just wish i could find out myself for once.

By cyst on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 01:56 pm:

    lady, you need to leave home. you can't grow up while sleeping in your parents' house.

By J on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 02:05 pm:

    She'd have to get a better paying job than at Mervyns or a roomate.Does any of your friends live away from home Pez?

By patrick on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 02:11 pm:

    in the recent nerve magazine they speak of Cobalt Lounge that has a sunday night event called "Sunday School" playing out the school girl thing, and then there is another joint called Dante's Inferno..where a "pair of 21 year old blonde twins dio kitschy stripper routines with flags, torches and an entourage of male strippers working hula hoops."

    sounds fucking fun to me.

By patrick on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 02:15 pm:

    get the fuck out pez. your parents are assholes. they don't deserve your company or respect while they talk to you like that. you're smart in declining their help with school...thats a good get out. you mother should ashamed for ever telling her child she's "not good enough" or that her reasons are "stupid" or "you're not very good at playing". Your mother sounds like she has competency issues of her own and is taking them out on you. if you aren't there...she can't use you that way. get out, get a roomate, and an answering machine. screen calls.

By cyst on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 03:26 pm:

    oh, come on. pez's mom is just being overly motherly. she doesn't want her child to grow up. she wants to keep pez in her sphere of influence. lots of parents are like that.

    pez's mom is trying to deny her the chance to figure things out for herself. I mean, her mom is probably right about most things, like she should get a b.a., she should be careful out there, she should probably worry more about herself at this point than about the plight of others.

    but there's no substitute for independence. pez would be happier starving on the not-so-mean streets of portland (or seattle or san francisco or even eugene for fuck's sake) than having supper with the family in boring or wherever.

    pez's family's hearts are probably in the right place, more or less, but if they're not going to fill out the forms to help her get pell grants (which would help her live independently), then she should kiss 'em goodbye.

    pez, maybe you should pretend you have a goal in life, and make sure it involves attending an out-of-town college. just go there and start taking general classes before deciding a major. if you really and truly can't make up your mind, then quit school when they make you choose a major.

    the peace corps doesn't accept folks whodon't have BAs, you know. and having a college degree will never hurt you. I think college is the perfect place to hang out when you're 20ish and aren't sure what to do with your life. you'll meet more interesting people than at the mervyn's, promise.

By patrick on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 04:02 pm:

    ok...maybe i was being a little harsh. but some of those statements and situations pez describes sound quite cruel and hurtful.

    "sphere of influence" ? i'd use the word control...but thats neither her nor there i suppose.

    i mean as much as my mom and i got into it when i was a teen......she never said any of my ideas were "stupid" or that I wasn't very good at playing music or ever denied me clerical assistance in getting an education. She realized i could be doing a lot worse.

    waht pez describes jstu sounds so damn mean spirited. what her pop did to the thats jsut so mean.

    im sure you know this pez.....

    im sorry i don't want to harp.....can you see my idealism peaking through?

    like you don't understand how the world couldnt function more like a commune, i don't understand how parents can be the way you describe.

    on another note....maybe its partly due to ignorance...but has that peice of paper on your walls that says you are a bachelor of something, be arts or science.....has that really changed your life.

    Maybe its a lack of discipline....but the brief time i was at school.....i took the classes i WANTED to take, not necessarily the one's that allowed me to check off my requirement checklist.

    but you knwo had i finsihed, i probably would have sepent my sr. year taking calculus, biology any other boring class i managed to dodge over the years.

    Im not sure how better off i would be with a piece of paper saying i met THEIR requirements. What about my own?

By Rhiannon on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 04:18 pm:

    Pez, listen to Cyst. And go to school far enough from home that it will be something of an ordeal to go home on the weekends.

    My mother's also got control issues. Serious ones. She was furious with me for not going to grad school. Then she was furious with me for moving so far away from home (she tried to equate my leaving home with her leaving my father, i.e., something that will destroy the family). I felt terrible for hurting her, because I love her. But I left, and I'm fine and now she's fine.

    If the thought of leaving your family or the feeling that you'll hurt them is hard for you, that's normal. It's good, because it means you care about them. But it's also normal for kids to grow up and leave and do things on their own and have opinions of their own. If your mom/dad are having an especially hard time with this, it's their problem. It's all right for you to feel bad, but don't let that keep you from doing what you need to do. (And you're not a wild 15-year-old who wants to run away and do all sorts of dangerous things and scandalize her parents. Remember that. What you're doing is normal and healthy and perfectly reasonable, and it's unreasonable of your parents to tell you otherwise.)

    One more thing: when I went "away" (about 45 minutes away) to college, it took me a while to be okay with not being home. But I can tell you honestly that now I don't miss my parents or home at all. I do miss my brother, though.

    On another note, my best friend/roommate may be moving to Florida to study.

By Rhiannon on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 04:31 pm:

    Patrick, it's not about the piece of paper. It's about the studies you've completed in order to receive the piece of paper. I know I've learned approximately as much as any other person with a BA in psychology, and I couldn't say that if I'd only gone to school for 3 years or whatever. And I never took calculus or biology (I went to a liberal arts school). In four years, the only course I took that I didn't want to take was a class in computer science, and it taught me a lot about problem solving in general (which everyone does every day) and how to isolate variables when you design an experiment in specific (which I did for two years).

    Some people's parents don't know how to separate themselves from their kids. It's good that your mom did.


    Pez, what are your grades like? Maybe you could get a scholarship to a better school if you transferred. The University of Oregon has a great psych program.

By Rhiannon on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 04:32 pm:

    Oh, I meant to say that I *will* miss my best friend. I must have forgotten to type that.

By cyst on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 04:57 pm:

    yeah, what rhiannon said. she's younger and remembers all this stuff better than I do.

    patrick, that piece of paper is a good thing to have. you can get a ba without ever taking biology or calculus. if pez wants to go to russia, she should consider going to uw and studying slavic languages.

    she could pick a public school in another state and first move there to work (while obtaining state residency). maybe by the time she could get in-state tuition, she'd have a better idea about what she wants to study.

    it's fine to flounder, but you might as well be working toward a possible goal while doing so, know what I mean? I imagine you would feel better about working at a retail job if you could think to yourself that you were on your way toward obtaining residency for schooling later on.

    college isn't about knowing what you want -- it's about figuring it out. and I'm not talking community college classes while working at a store and living with the folks, either.

    when I went to college I paid most of my way by working at the paper, where I met people who would later lead me to czech republic, ukraine, and central america. classes were the very least important part of my college experience, which I couldn't have picked up anywhere else. I also eventually picked up the piece of paper, which has helped me in other ways.

    whether they graduate or not, I think few people who go to public universities (and incur minimal debt compared to private college students) later think, "now what the hell did I go to college for?" if nothing else, it's really fun.

By patrick on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 05:24 pm:

    oh, it shouldnt go without saying i don't regret dropping out on that first day of my sophmore year. i really really really do. but im not going rehash it. regret will eat me up. so i went out and lived a bit and in the last two years taken some community college courses and done things most of you know that ive done.

    i'd also be lying if i said i never felt in someways inferior for not finishing college....but i have learned to reassure myself that my education does not equal my worth as a human. i proudly take that poop to the bank and cash when i need it.

By pez on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 05:42 pm:

    last term my grades absolutely sucked. 1.98 gpa in 15 credits. this term is a complete turnaround, with a prospected 3.75-4.0 in 14 credits.

    and less time at home.

    it's not that i'm against b.a.s or anything, but couldn't i get my associates, take a year off, then go back to school and get my b.a.?

    when i move on to a university, i want to find the best school in anthropology/music that i can find. i know what i'm capable of, given the right atmosphere.

    most of my friends left for schools across the country back in august. those that stayed in town i lost touch with...i've always been like that, forgetting people when i don't see them at school.

    i've been investigating the portland mercury for possible rooming situations fairly close to mount hood where i could keep my cat. i know that i'm due for a raise sometime in the next couple of months and i need to send in my card so my health will be covered and i can get a discount the next time i get glasses.

    i'm so scared. i've been so "sheltered" and i don't know the meaning of paying car insurance or having money to pay utilities at the end of the month...though i've inadveratly gotten a couple of tips from a member of the band at school.

    she takes envelopes, labels them with "rent" or "electricity" or "water" and the amount, then puts money in them over the course of a month. once it goes in, it stays in.

    this person also plays music at street corners sometimes. actually, that sound like fun. she wants to start a flute group with me and have me be the leader.

By Div on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 05:57 pm:

    We will always have regrets. I keep mine in a locked box at the back of my undies drawer, and only take them out when I need to wallow in whatcouldabin.

    I also dropped out of college, and pursued my "education" in my own way and in my own time. I work with people with all kinds of degrees in all kinds of areas, and I only feel inferior when they talk about how hard they worked for their degrees.

    Otherwise, I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and gosh darn, people like me.

    What is education other than learning. Of course if you want to be a doctor, a lawyer (geez) or something that requires specific knowledge, ya gotta go the regular course. But dont we all know highly educated people who are dumber than doo-doo?

    Anyway, as usual, I'm off the track here, but I'll trade ya 10 BAs for someone who can hold a decent conversation, instead of a monologue.

By patrick on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 06:34 pm:

    pez...i speak from experience...once you get out of school its harder to get back will always find a reason why it isnt feasible.

    paying bills and such isnt that hard.

    perhaps try and live and go to school in a place where you won't need a car.

By heather on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 09:09 pm:

    my most recent education [granted i've been doing
    this for a really long time] has been invaluable.
    not for the technical knowledge as much, but the
    experience is unlike any other.

    so i guess my opinion is that you should pursuit
    something with some level of intensity, whether
    it's school, or an art, or family, or whatever you
    feel strongly about.

    knowing that you've challenged yourself and
    followed your own path will be enough.

By Daniel ssss on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 11:26 pm:

    i'm with most recent education is one of intensity: no certificate, no degree, no job prospects, just an indepth two year long arduous immersion in something that is costing me lots of bucks and time and travel and head and feeling work...and is worth every penny and minute...because i feel strongly about learning it.

    but i spent ten years in undergrad and grad school, and like patrick, feel the self hatred when i admit to myself that because i got drunk for the next seven years after leaving a fully paid doctoral teaching fellowship at a great school...i screwed up my phd for good. sure, i cd go back but i'd rather pursue intensely something that is close to my heart and offers some amount of soul...than finish a "terminal" degree just so i can be "properly" employed.

    if you would have asked me if there were any chance at all of doing what i am now doing, yeah right. i didn't have a clue. the liberal education and the problem solving and the learning how to research and to write from it... that's what's made the difference.

    that and a good chunk of divine intervention. you wanna write? then write, and keep writing, and don't do it for anyone else, and never listen to those familial critics who say you cant you wont amount you better not.

By pez on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 01:05 am:

    i think it would be neat to take some time off to explore and decide who i am versus who others want me to be.

    my mom told me a while back that i could have her bicycle if i got it fixed...that might be a plan. besides, my sister's turning 16 and wants a car to's my parents really, though i could pay for it and then some with a little of my savings...naaaah. then i'd have the constant "gas and insurance" bugger besides oil changes and tuneups and a new headlight.

    i want to get in touch with some portland-area zinesters (i have a few email addys) and see if they have any advice.

By agatha on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 01:16 am:

    pez, maybe you should check out olympia. it's a good cheap place to live, not too far from oregon, and you could work and live in town for a year and then get in state tuition, grants, loans, etc and go to evergreen. evergreen is nice because you can basically cater your education to be whatever you want, of course you can't become a doctor or lawyer there but you can get a good liberal arts education and then continue on to a more specialized field. i know a guy who is graduating right now, he's moving to new york city and going to law school. if you ever want to check it out, i would be happy to show you around. i suggest visiting in the summer, it's a great time to experience olympia.

By Daniel ssss on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 08:25 am:

    I have good friends living in one of the harbors there in Olympia; sounds like a good plan. Or head south to Sarasota, get a job, and go to school there inexpensively. Or come to University City in St Louis and join up with Wash U for one of the most expensive education experiences you cd have. With the higher gpa, land a scholarship somewhere, anywhere, find a good organic garden to swap time and sweat for food n such, and avoid becoming a hostage to fossil fuel.

    Walk the Appalachian Trail for a year, backpack through New Mexico, float the Snake River in Boise, and avoid Ohio at all costs. Get a passport and see the world. Enlist in the Navy for the best views, a good comp plan, and free travel, and a free college education. An added benefit is the free health care for the rest of your life, and the free funeral at the end of it.

    There are no problems, just options waiting to be explored. You'll be outta here in a hundred years; how do you want to spend it?

    (the above is in no way meant to be advice, and no action should be taken on a account of said non-advice. The Management accepts no responsibilities whatsoever, and there are no implied or expresed warranties in any event of any dissatisfaction with your life. The aforementioned text is a rant, and only a rant.)

    It's yours. Do with it as you wish so that you might help others less fortunate, and take none of the credit for yourself.

By patrick on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 11:50 am:

    i take pictures.....lots of them. i've taken roughly 1500 images just for the construction/deconstruction project. this construction has been a source for nearly 6 months of imagery. It's getting to the point though where the work is becoming internal. they are putting skin on the beast.

    i think we got gallery space secured for summer. A whole month!!!!!

    don't join the navy...i think there will be war soon.

By Rhiannon on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 01:04 pm:

    Pez, the University of Pennsylvania has a fabulous anthropology department. It will take $$$ or lots of brains/high grades to get there, though I got in and my high school GPA was around 3.6, I think. Bryn Mawr College (where I went) also had a great anthro dept. (and art history, and its physics dept. is one of the best in the country, just so you know). Again, $$$ or grades. I bless my father every day for helping me through that school.

    West Chester University (in PA, and it's a public school) has a very good music department. I took lessons from professors there as a child, and one had previously taught at Julliard and one had taught at Peabody.

    I only know about schools in the Philadelphia area. US News & World Report puts out an issue of college rankings every year....your local library's reference section should have a copy.

    I'm not doing what I want right now, but it's okay. I like my coworkers, which makes the day fun, and I make enough that I don't worry about money, and I have my evenings and weekends completely free. I won't stay here long, just long enough to store enough $ away to decide which area in psychology I want to study further. Clinical? Counseling? / Anxiety? Cognitive disorders? ???

By Rhiannon on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 01:26 pm:

    Re: being scared, being sheltered. Hey, me too. But it's like jumping into cold water -- once you're in it, it's not so bad. It's not hard to pay bills. Taxes are kind of hard (at least for me), but you can find people to help you with them or get your parents to teach you how to do them now before you leave.

    I might be crazy, but I really like doing stuff like deciding how to arrange our cabinets and fixing the broken closet door and setting up my medical insurance plan and taking my car to the garage. When I was at home, I always felt like I couldn't do anything right, but now I know take pretty good care of myself and I'm a lot more sensible and responsible than anyone ever gave me credit for being. And when my father comes to visit and tells me I didn't arrange the cabinets right, I shouldn't put the couch there, I haven't chosen the best long-distance phone plan, and my tomato sauce needs more parsley, I can look him in the eye and say blithely, "to each his own," and go back to eating my very good pasta.

By agatha on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 09:51 pm:

    i'm going to become a librarian.

    it has been spoken.

By pez on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 11:13 am:

    right now i think i'm leaning toward political activism...i'll be posting a good rant in a few minutes, as soon as i can type it out of my book.

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