Barbara Boxer? Are you stupid?: Barbara Boxer?

By patrick on Friday, March 7, 2003 - 04:41 pm:

    (id link the story but some dont have access to the LA times)

    Somebody give that sell-out bitch a fuckin goldstar!

    State Gas Prices Soaring Faster Than Cost of Oil
    Figures suggest that refiners are reaping larger profits. Sen. Barbara Boxer calls for an investigation.

    By Elizabeth Douglass and Nancy Rivera Brooks, Times Staff Writers

    Oil companies blame the recent spike in gasoline prices on the rising cost of crude oil. But in California, pump prices have jumped more than three times as much as oil prices in the last two months, state figures show.

    Since the first week in January, the cost of crude oil delivered to California refineries has climbed an average of 12 cents a gallon, while the average retail price of regular gasoline statewide has soared 43 cents a gallon, according to the California Energy Commission.

    The figures suggest that refiners -- and dealers to a lesser extent -- have been pocketing more money as consumers pay record high gas prices.

    "The logical conclusion is that their profits have increased," said state Energy Commission spokesman Rob Schlichting. "Whether that amounts to excessive profit or gouging -- that remains to be seen."

    Oil companies reject the notion that they are making undue profits at their refineries, and gas station owners say they are being unfairly blamed for raising retail prices when they face higher wholesale costs.

    Without looking at the financial records of the oil companies and station managers, the state is unable to track their bottom lines. But energy officials get as close as they can to assessing profits by monitoring certain publicly available data.

    For refiners, they take the cost of crude oil and subtract it from the wholesale fuel price. This leaves a refinery margin that includes non-crude oil expenses -- everything from production costs to fuel additives -- as well as profits.

    From Jan. 6 to March 3, the margin at state refineries jumped 88.9%, from 27 cents a gallon to 51 cents. By contrast, the cost of crude rose 16.4% over that period, and the average retail price of gasoline rose 27.2%.

    For dealers, the state compares what stations pay for their gasoline supplies with pump prices, minus taxes. The resulting dealer margin includes rent, salaries and other expenses, along with profits.

    During the same period, the dealer margin rose 55.5%, from 9 cents a gallon to 14 cents.

    Margin figures for both refiners and dealers are volatile, often bouncing around week to week.

    Spokesmen for two oil companies with a big presence in California, ConocoPhillips and ChevronTexaco Corp., declined to comment on the situation and said they would defer to the American Petroleum Institute, an industry trade group.

    John Felmy, the API's chief economist, said California refiners have faced major new costs recently, including funding substantial facility upgrades and making a switch in fuel additives from MTBE to ethanol.

    In addition, refineries typically shut down their plants for annual maintenance during the first few months of the year and then retool them to produce "summer gas," a federally mandated and more expensive formula designed to limit smog as temperatures rise.

    "I don't doubt that some of that is profit," Felmy said of the margin increase, "but also some of that is cost."

    California's average price for regular gasoline is $2.012, according to the most recent weekly survey released Monday by federal officials. California prices often are higher than those for the rest of the nation's because the state's cleaner-burning gasoline is produced by only a handful of companies.

    Alarmed by the speed and degree of the price increases at the pump, Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.) on Thursday called for an investigation of "possible manipulation" of the state's gasoline supply.

    Boxer asked the General Accounting Office, the investigative arm of Congress, to look into California's spiraling prices to see whether the state's refineries are using "routine maintenance" as an excuse to shut down operations and keep prices high.

    She said the number of idle refineries is further crimping the state's tight supply of gasoline and is reminiscent of the scenario that developed during the state's 2000-01 electricity crisis.

    Consumer groups already have accused the oil companies of gouging customers to pad profits, but gasoline prices are not regulated, and previous investigations have failed to prove any illegal activity.

    Felmy said there was "no basis" for Boxer's suspicions about California refineries. He said refineries on the West Coast were running at 85% capacity, compared with 80% during the same period a year ago.

    California motorists aren't the only ones seeing a bump at the pump. Data released Thursday by the Energy Department show that gas prices are traveling into record territory across the country and are boosting profits for refiners and retailers.

    "Refiner margins, which were slim this past summer, are expected to recover over the next two driving seasons," according to a monthly outlook report produced by the Energy Information Administration, the statistical arm of the Energy Department.

    The U.S. refiner margin was 31.8 cents a gallon and the retailer margin 11.1 cents in February, when the price of self-serve regular gasoline averaged $1.615 nationwide, the EIA said. A year ago, the refiner margin was 18.9 cents a gallon, the retailer margin was 10.4 cents and the average price of self-serve regular gasoline was $1.114.

    Wall Street analysts are predicting healthy first-quarter earnings increases for oil companies.

    Companies can profit not only when prices increase, but also when crude oil prices fall and retail prices do not immediately decline -- a common occurrence after spikes at the pump. EIA studies have found that gasoline prices usually rise faster than they fall, a phenomenon dubbed "price asymmetry" or "downward sticky" prices.

    Motorists should expect no relief from high fuel prices for months, the EIA said.

    U.S. regular gasoline is expected to average $1.727 a gallon this month, breaking the record average U.S. price of $1.71 set in May 2001. The U.S. average is predicted to peak in April at $1.759, the EIA said.

    Although drivers are howling about recent increases, the EIA pointed out that prices were higher in the past when inflation is taken into account. The highest inflation-adjusted average U.S. price was nearly $2.90 a gallon set in March 1981, the EIA said.

By patrick on Friday, March 7, 2003 - 04:45 pm:

    they'll take another month to apoint a commission to designate a fact-finding committee which will then take 6 weeks to subpeana industry officers to get to the bottom of it all and by then, we've taken it so hard in the ass, we wont care.

    the silver lining?

    SUV owners are sucking it right now.

By eri on Friday, March 7, 2003 - 05:07 pm:

    In the time it took me to go through one tank of gas, the gas prices jumped up 30 cents per gallon. I know that doesn't seem much in areas where the gas is already higher (like cali, especially northern cali), but out here that is a LOT. This is the most I have EVER paid for gas in my life, including when I lived in Cali and they spiked prices during the "Gulf War". Ugh. Thank God I don't have to drive much. No wonder my parents have to have retirement income and two jobs to survive with their massive gas consuming behemoths! Sucks to be them!

By trace on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 11:33 am:

    After they take away your ability to choose a vehicle you know whats coming next?
    Houses over 2,000 square feet. I shit you not.
    Just wait and see

By dave. on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 12:12 pm:

    then, they'll come around in the night and harvest the testicles of white dudes. i'm totally not kidding.

By wisper on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 03:30 pm:

    wait, so if they made a law against making SUVs, would that be good enough for you trace? would you be cool about that?

    example: they've just banned the use of pesticides here. You spray your grass, you're in shit with the cops. Would you concider that a bad thing? because i just lost the choice to throw dangerous chemicals on my lawn? or because if i use pesticide, i'd get heavily fined?

    is something only bad to you if there's a law against it? and before that, it's a perfecly neutral choice?

By trace on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 04:05 pm:

    Actually, that is bullshit, how did that get passed?

    Hey, if you all want god knows what from fleas, ticks, spiders and mesquitoes, more power to you, but I like for the kids to be able to play in the front lawn, so I would want to use pestices.

    I have used them before. If not, when you went in the back yard, within 15 minutes your legs are coated in bug bites

By spunky on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 04:10 pm:

    That still boggles the mind.
    With the scare over west nile being transfered by mesquitto bites last year, your legislature voted against use of pesticides?

    That makes as much sense as saying we should leave saddam in power after september 11th!

By Rowlf on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 05:14 pm:

    Trace is right. We must pass laws that eliminate every possible threat to our lives. Human lives are sacred. Noone must die.

    You could get hit by a foul ball at a baseball game. lets put up protective barriers around the field. better yet, lets arm the fans so they can shoot the batter, to make sure he never endangers our lives and our childrens lives again with future foul balls... Baseball players fight their own people. They cant be trusted.

    a stranger might offer your children candy, then lure them into his van. Bomb the ice cream man, bomb any stranger with candy, bomb the convenience store. they might be tempted to use them against your children, or sell them to someone else who will use them on your children. you can never be too safe.

    your dog, no matter how tame, might one day bite your child. better put him down in advance, we must not risk an attack from Rover, even though we think he's contained outside in his doghouse, he could strike back at any moment. Dogs are jealous of humans and their lifestyle, they have nothing. they'd do anything to kill you and your loved ones. a dog is not a peaceful animal.

    Every person who owns a toothpick or a nail file must be registered and coded under our terror alert system at certain risk levels before travel. As we learned from 9/11, everything is a dangerous weapon. Kill everyone you don't know. If it aint white, its Shiite. Think of the children.

    Every single day we face miniscule risks. Eliminate them all. Human life is too precious. Well, our countries' humans' are, anyway. We will never be rid of our paranoia and fear until we realize that everything is dangerous and everyone is out to get us. Nothing is your fault or responsibility. Reasonable caution is not enough, we must be babysat and watched over constantly. We must be protected from every harm, no matter how far away. Right now I am writing to my zoo asking them to kill the tigers. They might get loose. They want to get loose.

    How many more people have to die before noone ever dies again? Time is killing us as we speak. Eliminate time. Noone dies. Lock arms and block cemetaries. Noone leaves. Our lives are too precious.

    I am important. Not you. Me me me protect me and my family. My possession of a family, they are MINE, just as my TV and VCR are mine. I'll kill you if you come near my new stereo. Mine. My life, my dreams, nothings gonna stop me now.

    Attach vacummns to my flesh to suck the fat away. I should still be allowed to eat as much junk food as I want. But food should not be allowed to kill me. Nothing is my fault. I should be allowed to have any lifestyle I please with no consequences. If something comes after me, its their problem, not mine. Bomb the sun. No more skin cancer. Never think ahead. Everything is simple.

    I'll be locked in my room until someone bombs all the problems away. Can you pick me up some cigarettes? And fill up the SUV, I want that fucker ready for when everything is safe for me again. I like to sit high.

By Rowlf on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 05:45 pm:

    on a non-sarcastic note, from

    "The chemicals that are released into the environment in an effort to control mosquitoes are harmful to human health, wildlife, and ecosystems. They are also ineffective in that they kill only a limited percentage of mosquitoes, leaving sprayed communities with a false sense of security and less likely to use effective, non-toxic, control measures"

    but of course trace in his infinite wisdom, in a more accurate analogy to the Iraq situation, needs to FEEL safe rather than actually be safe, smart, or learn to deal with the fact that danger is out there. Better to feel safe then perhaps make things worse, for you and for everybody.

By wisper on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 06:22 pm:

    well hey, if you like your kids tromping through poison rather than the occasional sting...

    trace has gassed his own people!!

    "With the scare over west nile being transfered by mesquitto bites last year, your legislature voted against use of pesticides?"

    see, there's many ways to avoid west nile. This region has chosen to wear long sleeves and not go out around dusk without protection or citronella candles. Because you can't beat nature. You just can't. And by testing and burning all dead birds. And by getting rid of standing water pools on lawns and in ditches. And by doing tests for mosquito larva in swamps BEFORE they spray them, rather than recklessly dumping toxic shit on anything wet. And they don't even have to spray ponds, or spray anything at all, since they make a pesticide in tiny tablet form that only kills larva, and is perfectly safe and tested for water birds, fish and people. It's all terribly scientific. We think before we kill things here.

    Maybe you should ask someone in your area about this stuff?

By trace on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 06:44 pm:

    'well hey, if you like your kids tromping through poison rather than the occasional sting..."

    Uh, no. I can read directions..........

    Nice you live in a place where you can control standing water...
    We lived in Missouri, where the average humidity was 80%. You know what that means? STAGNAT WATER everywhere.
    Same goes for San Antonio.
    Throw in chiggers and fire ants and ticks and fleas and spiders, and well hell. A little spray goes a long damn way.

By trace on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 06:50 pm:

    What i have to say to most of you posters in this thread is this:


    I for one will not go around wearing a gas mask.
    I choose not to get a coctail of anti-whatever shots in my arm.
    I prefer to get rid of the threat.
    I am not cowering, nor will I. And I will not ask my daughters to do the same, or their children.

    No one on this planet but the United States has the resources necessary to stop the blood flow that has flown from the mideast and spread its way here.

    And one more thing, it has nothing to do with "Western Cutlure" or "American Oppression".

    This fight, this "holy war" has existed for centuries.
    Only now they have technologies to kill more people in a nastier way.

    And I cannot beleive so many liberals are so willing to ignore what this man has done to his own people and his neighbors.

    My analogy of Iraq is this:

    There is a rapist in the neighborhood.
    He has not raped my girls yet.
    Should I just assume he will never leave his house?
    Should I hire someone to watch his house and alert me when he leaves so I can have my girls run and hide?
    Or am I gonna run him out of town?

By Jess on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 09:05 pm:

    Bravo. Give me his address. We will meet. Tell the girls to bake me an Angelfood Cake. With confectioners sugar.

By Nate on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 09:43 pm:

    jess, your bowels are humming.

    seriously. everyone can tell.

    you're not fooling anyone.

By Jess on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 10:09 pm:

    My Bowels? Can sing? I will work on that. Meanwhile I would be willing to give myself to help stop the soulless hatefull enemy. With the breeze through his window he smells the death of you. That is his comfort. The death of freedom of thought and religion is sweet. He smells burning bodies and the death of the indivudual. I have children. I wish I (at50) could go. Americans have been given a gift. They know it. They will be unrelentous in their spirit. History proves it. As for my bowels, I still favor the cake.

By Jess on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 10:13 pm:

    My Bowels? Can sing? I will work on that. Meanwhile I would be willing to give myself to help stop the soulless hatefull enemy. With the breeze through his window he smells the death of you. That is his comfort. The death of freedom of thought and religion is sweet. He smells burning bodies and the death of the indivudual. I have children. I wish I (at50) could go. Americans have been given a gift. They know it. They will be unrelentous in their spirit. History proves it. As for my bowels, I still favor the cake.

By Ophelia on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 10:29 pm:

    Rowlf, wisper: I agree
    Trace: you scare me
    Jess: huh???

    insecticides just make bugs develop immunities.

    people need to learn to deal with the environment the way it is, not alter the environment everytime it does something we dont like. at least to an extent... we gotta work with the system, because much as we'd like to ignore it, we are intrinsically a part of it.

    at least now i know how my generation got all it fucked up attitude problems...i have lost much respect for my elders. sad, aint it?

    at least i also have a lot of people i can respect.

By Nate on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 11:09 pm:

    fuck that ophie, read the bible. man was given dominion over the world.

    i ain't fuckign kidding, either. if you don't exercise dominion, it becomes rusty. like any other skill. and it is important that we do not lose sight of god's mission for us.


By Jess on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 11:36 pm:

    I Think that God gave us the brain to understand, appreciate, and to humble ourselves in this miracle. Even if there were no god, we would be fools to overlook the miracles around us. Pardon me, I am learning to post.

By eri on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 11:43 pm:

    I think that you guys are misunderstanding Trace on this one. He is against laws putting limits on SUV consumerism, as well as limiting houses to less than 2,000 square feet. I tell you if we had more rug rats then 2,000 square feet wouldn't be enough room. And they don't have as much shit as most kids their ages.

    As far as the pesticides in the back yard, well, they were definately needed. I let the girls out to play in our back yard for 5 minutes before I called them in because they were so badly bitten. 5 minutes. Hayley had 31 mosquito bites on her and Micki had 46 bites. No kidding. I fucking stripped them down and counted them because they were fucking bitten all over. They even went up Micki's shorts and bit the shit out of her. 5 minutes. If we were ever going to let our kids play outside and not be in the streets (at ages 6 and 2 they are too young to battle the cars alone) then we had to do something. It was about protecting our kids. I couldn't put bug protectant on their skins because their weights were so low that it was detrimental to their health. I had already tried everything with no pesticides in it that is available and it didn't help at all. There is a time when you have to protect those out there and a time to worry about protecting the "mosquitos". Frankly my children take a higher priority than insects. Not that we are on a worldwide vengance to kill all insects, but simply that our kids are more important to us than mosquitos.

By dave. on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 12:37 am:

    no, i think you miss the point. i don't claim to know how to quantify the comparative risk of exposure to pesticide vs. pest but you put poison on the lawn, let the kids roll around on it and call that safe? there are alternatives to ortho. nematodes totally work. little planaria eat eggs and die when the eggs are gone. poof. handles most ground-based critters. winged critters are a different matter and coating the lawn may have a collateral effect but doesn't really change much. otherwise, you should be looking at safe, topical repellents. i listened to a mark and brian show where they put crushed garlic in rubber boots and then put those boots on and within a hour, their breath was reeking of garlic. you'd be amazed what you can absorb via the skin.

    i miss mark and brian.

By Rowlf on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 08:27 am:

    "I for one will not go around wearing a gas mask.
    I choose not to get a coctail of anti-whatever shots in my arm.
    I prefer to get rid of the threat.
    I am not cowering, nor will I. And I will not ask my daughters to do the same, or their children. "

    you don't even need to do that. the only reason you'll ever need to wear a gas mask is because you live in one of the most polluted places IN THE WORLD. The Iraq "threat" is smaller than the ones you live with everyday, but I don't see anyone willing to change their own lifestyle... its always someone elses' problem somehow.

    see, trace, you're all about a bottom line - if its bad: spray everywhere, bomb anything. you dont care what happens after, during, 10 years down the line, so long as you get that bottom line NOW.

    Bottom line: "he lied about sex under oath"
    Bottom line: "he has gassed his own people"
    Bottom line: "its the law"

    etc etc

    I would like trace to tell me what is going to happen with the public in Jordan, Syria, Turkey, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc when the US goes in. You don't expect them to erupt? And when they do, you think you can just go get them too? Well how then, when the Gulf is completely cut off? And what if the Koreans in all of this finally do something to get our attention?

    There is no question in my mind that the US could beat Iraq. But if the Iraqi troops dont surrender immediately, the longer this thing goes down, its possible the US could get slaughtered. Noones talking about this, its as if Iraq is truly isolated and all his neighbors actually want us in there....

    But Trace doesnt think we should step back and think and find another way to kill the bugs, just spray everything, and get your bottom line.

    It doesnt work.

    When did everyone decide they were so important?

    "There is a rapist in the neighborhood.
    He has not raped my girls yet.
    Should I just assume he will never leave his house?
    Should I hire someone to watch his house and alert me when he leaves so I can have my girls run and hide?
    Or am I gonna run him out of town?"

    Iraq is footing the bill for the inspectors.

    There is someone watching the house 24/7, the rapist is cutting off pieces of his knob bit by bit to try to convince you not to come over.

    As for the rest of your analogy, you failed to mention that he's hiding in a locked safe you cant find, there are more than just a few lookalike rapists running through the house and the rest of the house you're going to bust through is filled with children.

    Meanwhile, while you're staring at one house thats been contained, this other rapist is at your back window with a crowbar...

    And while you're ignoring the other rapist, you're frustrated about the goings on with the rapist way down the road thinking "I dont care if he cuts all his dick off, he's still a rapist"...
    and all of his neighbors have kids that are friends with the rapists' kids, and if you knock them down to get to the rapist, they're going to try to give you the beatdown, and send everyone they can to your house to get your family.

    Its funny how you really are being such a cowboy. Way to perpetuate the stereotype.

By dave. on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 09:51 am:

    *polite applause*

By trace on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 10:01 am:

    "As for the rest of your analogy, you failed to mention that he's hiding in a locked safe you cant find, there are more than just a few lookalike rapists running through the house and the rest of the house you're going to bust through is filled with children. "

    All the more reason to get rid of him

By patrick on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 12:28 pm:


    you know. that lead paint. i say bring it back.

    trying to find baby-friendly paint this weekend, calling around to various paint stores i got the following assortment of responses.

    "well, never heard of such a thing..Ive been in this business for 15 years."

    "well paint is gonna make you sick, but it wont kill ya, they stopped putting lead in it years ago"

    "maybe you should get a different crib."

    finally I got:
    "yes, we have that"

    it was at one of these old school hardware stores. not an Ace, not a Home Depot. Old school hardware store with grandpas running the show.

    trace you're completely silly.

    the fact you even make an argument against SUVs into some sort of "dont tread on me...dis is "merica" type of stance is just obnoxious.

    I dont know anything about housing size limits either, but housing is private property. SUVs are operated on public property. Pesticides can be dangerous to everyone, not just your dumbass on your own lawn. They can pollute the water table. Just like I can't go and dump my photo chemicals out in my backyard and you cant dump oil and such into the gutter.

    Stop intertwining liberty with consumer responsibility. Its well established the majority of the public is too stupid to be responsible.

    You make rules for the lowest common denominator.

By trace on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 01:57 pm:

    Hows this for you.
    I dont want ANY laws.

    get it?

    The purpose of the US Government, at the time of founding was:
    Preserve Liberty
    Provide for Defense
    Print Money.

    The rest is add on crap that has cost this country and her citizens TRILLIONS.

    Get your own damn insurance
    get your own damn food
    get your own damn house
    pay for our own damn education

    The US Government is not a Charity.
    It does not, nor should it, exist to act as a food and health distributor.

    Get it through your damn heads

By trace on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 02:05 pm:

    let me put a qualifier on that.

    the states and local govs should have local responsibilities

By patrick on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 02:08 pm:

    you just dont realize you are the problem do you.

    ive never seen anyone so naive, ignorant and out of touch with reality.

    im sure a year of paying for unsubsidized education at public schools, healthcare that isnt subsidized by the government or your employer and a traffic accident or two by an uninsured motorist would change your mind.

    what you propose is entirely unattainable and about as absurd as the likes of Utopians Anarchists (ever realized how similar your proposal is to theirs?)

    you guys want a house? see how far you get without i guess the feds should just get out of the business of regulating interest rates too right?

By patrick on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 02:09 pm:

    Utopians & Anarchists.

By trace on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 02:17 pm:

    Pacifist & Enablers

By patrick on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 02:23 pm:


    um yeah. Im uh enabling the evil forces Saddam arent i.

    god you are SO CONFUSED.

    i have never advocated pacifisim?


    i have never denied the ugly need for war dipshit. My argument is the current need, or lack thereof.

    the fact you launch such terms.......where did you get these terms trace? did Uncky Rush talk about this recently?

    see...this is what i mean.

    your moral and philosophical core is so god damn confused.

    you advocate one thing then say another.

    you come just short of advocating anarchy coming out against liberalism like you just learned about and then praise THE LAW.

    you defend the constitution then slam anyone who seeks to stop this war because of its UnConstitutionality (amongst many other reasons)

    you're all over the map and need some serious soul searching because you dont make any god damn sense.

By trace on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 02:35 pm:

    OK, here is my concept.
    The US Federal Government should handle:
    Foreign Relations (Treaties, Aliances, Trade, etc)
    National Defense
    National Currency
    National Security
    Multi-State Law Enforcement (ie suspects that run from state to state).
    Constitutional Defense (Justice Department)

    There should remain a Senate, but the House should be aboloshed. This would preserve the checks and balances we have in place today.
    The Attorney General should not be appointed by the executive branch, but should be directly elected by the people. This position is important enough to be answerable soley to the public.
    The main purpose of the Justice Department would be to ensure the state laws do not conflict with the US Constitution, and to watch the Executive and Legislative Branch for abuses of power.
    The Justice Department, with it's elected head, would run the Department Of Homeland Degense.
    Homeland defense would fill the role of National Security and run the CIA, FBI and NSA.
    Congress would get reports like they do now, and so would the executive and judicial branches.

    The Federal Budget should come from State Budgets & Taxes based upon the individual population percentage of each state.

    The state should be the only one that collects any type of income tax, and submit a pre-determined amount of those procedeeds to the Federal Government, and the Feds can only spend exactly what they collect from the individual states.
    The states in turn would have the responsibility of education, welfare, healthcare, domestic law enforcement etc.
    That would enable each state to act in the best interest of the local population as opposed to these decisions being made on a national level.

    The results would be a better social and economic structure tailored that targets the local needs easier and quicker.

By semillama on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 03:07 pm:

    What about the environment? For example, water rights. How do you handle that on a state level without it escalating into pitched battles over water? (I'm not joking - I have read people seriously discussing things like bombing pipelines that would divert water from Lake Superior to outside the Great Lakes region).
    The environment does not pay attention to state lines, or national boundaries (ask the Canadians about that).

    I suppose one good think about trace's idea is that there would be fewer wars started by the US. This one wouldn't get off the ground, if the number of local governments opposed to it are any indication.

    What's to prevent another secession? What's to prevent another Civil War? I mean, a lot of folks in the south would love that, I'm sure.

    Plus, where does the President fit in?

    What prevents corporations from infiltrating the local governments and manipulating them to their own ends? (ok, nothing is really preventing them now but it would probably be worse) It would be like the 19th century all over again.

By patrick on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 03:14 pm:

    Forget it Jake. Its Chinatown

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