Caspar


sorabji.com: What does it look like where you are?: Caspar
THIS IS A READ-ONLY ARCHIVE FROM THE SORABJI.COM MESSAGE BOARDS (1995-2016).

By Isolde on Monday, November 15, 1999 - 11:58 pm:

    Where I am, it is raining. There's a big leak that threatens to hit the computer. Well, one of many big leaks. The water sneaks in under thr door. The room is pretty clean. Not much in it, other than myself, my bed, my cats, and my desk. It's nighttime. The stars would be out, but it's raining. The ocean is very loud. There are some trees, and a few drunks wandering the streets of my tiny Hamlet. There must be about four people in this town. I swear. Depressing. And what sillier a name could one ask for than Caspar?


By Agatha on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 03:11 am:

    where is caspar? i like that name.


By Cyst on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 10:15 am:

    there's one in wyoming.

    I think a friend of mine in another city is a sociopath.

    - he has begun to refer to other people as "you humans"

    - bought himself a fancy german gun

    - is getting a concealed weapons permit

    - has been hanging out on satanist and libertarian web sites

    - has explained his scary libertine "might makes right" philosophy to me

    - speaks of successful interpersonal communication in terms of how "kind" another person was, not that they were funny or smart or interesting or whatever

    - says that he would kill another person for a political reason

    - says he doesn't know whether I should worry about him

    and I don't know what to do.



By Cyst on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 10:16 am:

    I don't think there are any seaside towns in wyoming, though.


By Scatch on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 11:36 am:

    your friend is a sociopath.

    caspar is on the northern california coast between mendocino and fort bragg.

    the town in wyoming is casper.

    squid are more intelligent than they let on.


By Nate on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 12:03 pm:

    so are octopii.

    satanism and/or libertarianism does not belong in your set of bulletpoints.

    interest and/or participation in either is not a necessary sign of a wrong mind.

    i had a fancy german gun once. i sold it to an insane 14 year old.


By Rhiannon on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 12:10 pm:

    "- speaks of successful interpersonal communication in terms of how "kind" another person was, not that they were funny or smart or interesting or whatever"

    What's wrong with appreciating kindness?


By grandma dynamite on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 12:58 pm:

    what's wrong with appreciating satan?


By droopy on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 01:47 pm:

    his remarking on the "kindness" of others, in light of the other stuff, does make him sound a bit paranoid.

    if he becomes really obsessed with nazism, i have an old german wehrpaB[ss] issued to a vole-like little fascist named kurt turpe in '37. i may need some cash soon, and i'll let him have it for $35 plus postage.


By Rhiannon on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 01:54 pm:

    I still don't get it. If you meet someone and then say, "she was very kind" instead of "she was very smart" or "she was very funny"....regardless of the scary guy's other qualities, how does that sound paranoid? I would think it would be worse if the guy complained that other people were mean or untrustworthy or something else negative...*that* sounds like paranoia.


By Nate on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 02:17 pm:

    i want your wehrpaŖ.


By Droopy on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 02:36 pm:

    all the boys do.


By Nate on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 02:59 pm:

    i have $35 plus postage.


By Rhiannon on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 03:12 pm:

    I would imagine it's worth more than $35.


By Rhiannon on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 03:16 pm:

    Re: silly names for towns. Pennsylvania is chock full of crazy named-towns. The obvious ones:

    King of Prussia
    Bird-in-hand
    Intercourse
    Eighty-six
    Anita
    Normal

    Over the border in Maryland is Boring.

    When I was a kid and my mom would leave me in the car while she ran into the post office or something, I would read the map in the glove compartment and try to count all the funny names for towns. I remember getting past 200. Lucky for you all I don't have the map with me.


By Rhiannon on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 03:17 pm:

    Oops, I meant "crazy-named towns." I've got to watch my hyphens.


By Nate on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 03:35 pm:

    $35 would be a slight deal. i've seen then for 80 marks.

    about $42?


By Lucy Phurre on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 03:51 pm:

    Maryland *is* Boring.
    That's why I moved. MD has some crazy place names.
    Detour, etc.
    There was a Baltimore City Paper article about it.

    I have a couple friends in Baltimore who are like that. Crowley-heads. They talk about starting a Satanic cult to take over the world. They never do, though. I don't think they're really dangerous. Can't speak for your friend.


By droop on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 03:56 pm:

    i said $35 because there really isn't much written in it, outside of a little bit of personal info. most of the handwriting is illegible. anything stamped in it is dated '37, but there is a little wehrpaB=notiz document from may '39, four months before they invaded poland. i have no idea what it says, outside of what i can make out with my rudimentary german - which is not much.

    however - the only reason i mentioned it is 'cause i just noticed my two rear tires are about to fall apart. if i really get serious about selling, you'll be the first to know, nate. for $42 i'll throw in an army-issue prophylactic packet.

    crazy-named texas towns off the top of my head:

    gun barrell
    flower mound
    telephone
    cactus
    bovina
    sugar land


By Patrick on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 05:01 pm:

    crazy named places I know of

    Lizard Lick, NC
    Zebulon, NC
    Sugar Loaf, GA


By Markus on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 05:13 pm:

    Zebulon is not only my future firstborn's name, but also the home of the Carolina Mudcats minor league baseball team.

    I'm the family genealogist for my mother's family. About eighty years back, one of my ancestors from Peculiar, MO married a guy from Normal, IL.

    Libertarian philosophy directly opposes "might makes right".

    Squid are actually dumbass bastards; they just steal credit from the coelecanths.

    Nice ess-tzet, Nate.


By Patrick on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 05:28 pm:

    correct re: the Mudcats

    and "arrrrggggghhh i have nothing against ya squiddy, I just heard there was gold in ye belly"


    the thing i want to know about liberatarian philosphy without looking it up is, they believe in no income tax, yet how do they propose making up for this lost income to fund public programs and such. I know they want to scale back gov't involvment in the private sector, but surely fund for roads, environment, pay for gov't officials, police etc etc needs to come from somewhere.

    What i want to know is *where?*


By Markus on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 05:45 pm:

    There's a difference between libertarians and Libertarians, the main one being that the former tend to the thoughtful and tolerant and the latter are useless raving doctrinaire absolutists. What I can't understand is why, since most are still living at home, Mom doesn't enforce better hygiene and grooming.

    Your best starter for libertarian philosophy is British clasical liberalism of the eighteenth century. John Stuart Mill wrote the classic essay, On Liberty. There's one paragraph that sums it all up neatly, but I'll have to look it up, as I'd mangle the gentleman's fine phrasing if I tried to quote from memory. Penguin puts out a slim edition for a low price.


By Cyst on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 05:46 pm:

    the part about libertarianism was a joke.

    more like libertinism, if there is such a thing.


By Markus on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 05:53 pm:

    Here ya go:

    The object of this Essay is to assert one very simple principle, as entitled to govern absolutely the dealings of society with the individual in the way of compulsion and control, whether the means used be physical force in the form of legal penalties, or the moral coercion of public opinion. That principle is, that the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinions of others, to do so would be wise, or even right. These are good reasons for remonstrating with him, or reasoning with him, or persuading him, or entreating him, but not for compelling him, or visiting him with any evil, in case he do otherwise. To justify that, the conduct from which it is desired to deter him must be calculated to produce evil to some one else. The only part of the conduct of any one, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.

    -- J.S. Mill


By Patrick on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 05:55 pm:

    yeah I did briefly study the different facets of liberalism, at least in relation to american politics. I do recall reading a few excerpts from On Liberty as well as studying greek liberalism and to the modern day definitions here domestically. I can dig up my notes and fetch that crap.

    I guess I was directly questioning The Libertarian Party's (as we know it here in America) Platform.

    by the way, as my radio guides me through the my audiophile day, I want to thank HR, for "Sacred Love"



By Patrick on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 05:58 pm:

    "audiophile day" i know that makes no sense but you understand what i am saying right?

    could'nt think of the proper adjective form of that term audiophile


By Rhiannon on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 06:09 pm:

    audiophiliac

    if there's such a word


By Patrick on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 06:09 pm:

    thank you, i knew you would pull through for me


By Rhiannon on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 06:19 pm:

    no problem



    I don't buy Mr. Mill's philosophy. We don't live in a vacuum. Our actions affect others whether we intend for them to or not.


By Isolde on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 06:51 pm:

    Thanks for clarifying, Scratch. I've been working all day. Speaking of odd place names, has anyone been to Wagontire, Oregon? Some friends of mine and I dropped by on our way to war up by Eugene. Anyway.


By Lucy Phurre on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 07:20 pm:

    Libertarians are just anarchists that chickened out.
    For libertinism, read De Sade (No, you can't have my copy of Justine)


By Cyst on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 07:24 pm:

    hey, lucy, who translated your copy of justine? mine barely seems dirty. I must have an old prude version.


By Rhiannon on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 07:30 pm:

    That's what I was thinking. I remember reading in his biography that his uncle, an abbott if I recall correctly, was "a notorious libertine."

    When I was in 11th grade, we had to take our weekly vocabulary words and put them in a story, and I wrote a series of letters back and forth from De Sade to his wife while he was imprisoned in the Bastille. I made the Marquis out to be completely incoherently insane (which he was not, of course), while his wife was more sensible. Each letter's postscript always addressed the Marquis' demands for more bottles. Luckily, my English teacher never asked what he wanted the bottles for.


By Patrick on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 07:34 pm:

    alrighty, if anyone is intersted, I answered my own question by taking a quick trip to the party headquarters, online of course


    FYI

    Could America survive without an income tax?
    Certainly. There are hundreds of departments, agencies, and programs that are not even provided
    for in the Constitution, but now make up the majority of the federal budget. Without them there would be no need for the income tax.

    What would happen to your favorite government program?

    Most government programs duplicate functions that would be better done by private
    business or could be more effectively provided through private charity. Without an income tax, you would have the money to pay for these services
    or support these causes yourself, without wasting your money on government bureaucracy.

    Should we replace the current income tax with a new kind of tax? A "flat tax" or national sales tax?

    No. The Libertarian Party is opposed to any new
    taxes.



    Vague VAgue Vague....pussies. I found it hilarious, last election here in CA, there was a prop to end the exporting of horses for food and product consumption. The libertarians opposed it, their platform statement was "Just say Naayyyyy on Prop 221" (or whatever # it was)


By Isolde on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 08:41 pm:

    Libertarians seem to feel a need to oppose anything they didn't come up with themselves.


By Lucy Phurre on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 10:06 pm:

    Buncha pussies.
    They want to keep the laws that protect the rich, and not the ones that protect the poor.
    Aspects of their philosophy make sense. Like, if the gov't really wanted to punish big tobacco, why don't they eliminate the subsidies instead of taxing cigarettes? Philip Morris already gets enough of my income without getting my tax dollars too.
    Taxing cigarettes is only a PC way to tax the poor. Tobacco is a lower class drug, so much so that Chomsky predicts it will soon be illegal. The tobacco companies just raise the price, they're laughing all the way to the bank and us poor addicts take the hit.
    So that's the part of government that I want to eliminate... fucking corporate welfare, which many self-described "libertarians" defend.
    Bullshit.
    Utter bullshit.


    Lucy is bitchy and a bit punchy right now b/c she is *still* at work waiting for the damned cab.
    And work was sheer chaos today.
    Lather is home sleeping, as he has been working 12 hour shifts for at least the last 4 days, and I think 5 or 6.
    He wanted to come pick me up anyway, but I made him sleep, I didn't want him driving as tired as he is.
    My poor sweetie.
    And it's raining.
    Damnit.


By Spider on Tuesday, November 16, 1999 - 10:44 pm:

    That was nice of him. That was nice of you.


By Nate on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 11:37 am:

    i'm registered libertarian.

    "The tobacco companies just raise the price, they're laughing all the way to the bank and us poor addicts take the hit."

    talk about pussies. did someone strap you down and make you an addict? anyone?

    and because it's a "poor drug" or whatever, the people who smoke burden the rest of us with their health problems. so who should pay for that? i would say the smokers. don't think of it as a tobacco tax, think of it as social security for poor smokers. it's a cost that sure as hell should be placed on the shoulders of smokers, because I sure as hell don't want to have to pay for your stupid mistakes.

    and the whole thing about it being a "poor drug". the poor, in general, are poor for a reason. they lack whatever it takes to move themselves up in the world, what the french call a certain i don't know what. whatever it is, it apparently includes the smarts not to drive nails through your hand, hit your head with bricks, or smoke cigarettes. all of which are stupid, all ove which can be generally avoided, and all of which render injury that should not hit my wallet.

    our victim-society democrat pussies and our holy roller republican pussies could do well to stop, think about what our country was really built on, and try to move us to an era of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.


By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 11:53 am:

    Firstly, the money's not going to healthcare.
    Secondly healthcare in America is a joke.
    Thirdly, why should *I* pay for corporate welfare?
    (You have yet to address this issue. I don't think you ever will, as it is a glaring inconsistency in your logic and proof positive that you want a plutocracy and that Libertarian bullshit is just a cover)
    Fourthly, social mobility in America is a joke.
    Fifthly, I'll get back to you later, I have shit to do.


By Patrick on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 12:08 pm:

    "our victim-society democrat pussies and our holy roller republican pussies could do well to stop, think about what our country was really built on, and try to move us to an era of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY."

    I agree with this more than you know, except the part where you might advocate gun ownership.

    does the high consumption of red meat by non smokers count as a health concern for those of us who rarely eat it. Those pigs have heart attacks and other health problems. There are so many ills in our society that we could alleviate to reduce health costs for the "other guy" but whats the point? I long for a way of life where this kind of shit doesn't matter......building my great time machine, and none of you are invited, except maybe J and Cyst for fun......


By Patrick on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 12:09 pm:

    "our victim-society democrat pussies and our holy roller republican pussies could do well to stop, think about what our country was really built on, and try to move us to an era of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY."

    I agree with this more than you know, except the part where you might advocate gun ownership.

    does the high consumption of red meat by non smokers count as a health concern for those of us who rarely eat it. Those pigs have heart attacks and other health problems. There are so many ills in our society that we could alleviate to reduce health costs for the "other guy" but whats the point? I long for a way of life where this kind of shit doesn't matter......building my great time machine, and none of you are invited, except maybe J and Cyst for fun......


By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 12:29 pm:

    Yeah, tax red meat.
    Tax guns.
    Tax the fucking Wall Street Journal (I'm paying a hell of a lot more to insulate investors and coroporationss from the consequences of their actions.)
    I personally think that many of our nation's financial ills would be eased by legalizing coke and taxing it back up to its 1980s price level (adjusted for inflation, of course). And OD'ing yuppies are one thing I missed about the 80's.

    But I prefer the expensive stuff *lighting a Marlboro*


By J on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 01:07 pm:

    I bought 2 cartons of Marlboro's a day for $10.00 each,and 2 bottles of booze a day for cheap,bought my first bottle of Grand Marinier(it,s not that good).I already mentioned how fun the "drug store" was,I love Mexico,too bad their goverment is even more fucked than ours.I.m going to try to go back before X-Mas.


By Patrick on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 01:18 pm:

    I heard that very soon if you drive, you will have to leave a deposit on your car at the border with Mexican giv't officials, because so many stolen cars are being brought into mexico....something like $400-500 bucks...thats fucked...


By J on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 01:31 pm:

    I heard that too,they should have already done it but it didn,t go over well,so it,s on the back burner,for now.


By Nate on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 01:55 pm:

    how do you define corporate welfare? "any government spending program that provides unique benefits or advantages to specific companies or industries." ?

    i'm firmly against that. i believe that the libertarian platform, which aims at a free market society, is firmly against that.

    > Firstly, the money's not going to healthcare.

    Some of it is. Alameda county is getting $485
    million, targeted at healthcare. I admit, there is not enough regulation of where the money is going, but that is a failing of beaurocracy.

    > Secondly healthcare in America is a joke.

    Agreed. Let's dump it. We're capitalists,
    after all, not socialists.


    > Fourthly, social mobility in America is a joke.

    i'm proof that you're wrong.


By Holden on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 02:32 pm:

    Do you feel any responsibility to be your brother's keeper?


By Nate on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 02:55 pm:

    i am not my brother's keeper.

    i take care of my own. i would like to choose who my work benefits.


By Patrick on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 03:11 pm:

    can i bum a dollar for some smokes?


By heather on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 03:16 pm:

    that 'brother's keeper' line i always find interesting.

    people use it to whatever they want it to mean- it was cain's answer to god after he had killed his brother
    "where is he?"
    "how should i know? i'm not my brother's keeper"


By Spider on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 03:25 pm:

    I always found that part so amusing, like he was trying to fool God.

    Another example: One of the St. Barbaras lost her head on her father's orders. Her father would have killed her himself, but he figured if he got somebody else to do it the sin would be on them, not him. Like God wouldn't know.

    *sigh* Imbeciles.

    Another frequently misused line is "the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing." I've heard this used to describe, say, an office where everyone does their own thing and no one communicates. In the bible, it's used as an exhortation about almsgiving and meant positively.


    Sorry. Carry on about whatever it was you were talking about. I need a nap.


By Nate on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 03:44 pm:

    actually, in the time of cain and abel God wasn't omniscient yet. that came later in the bible.


By Cyst on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 03:56 pm:

    when? how?


By Spider on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 04:13 pm:

    Need I explain to you that God was always omniscient, whether or not people understood Him to be so at whatever given time? God exists independent of us and our conceptions.


By Nate on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 04:15 pm:

    it's not an event that made God omniscient, it's just an understanding. ie: why would he bother asking cain where abel is if 1) he already knows and 2) he knows what cain's answer will be?

    Gods were something different to early jews. the jews believed in many gods, but only worshiped their own (El). the jews are El's chosen people, in a way kind of analagous to serfs being a king's people (no disrespect intended to the jews.) early jews believed that they had their god, and eveyone else had their own gods. it wasn't a matter of believing that there was only one god, and that all powerful entity was what they were worshiping.

    in that time, gods were much more powerful than mortals, but also had peer gods. one god may be more powerful than another god, but no one god was omnipotent or omniscient.

    even in moses' time the belief was not in the existance of one god. the commandments have been tragically butchered in christian translation. worshiping of other gods is forbidden, but the idea of "false" gods has been added. El intended only that his people should only worship him, not that he was the only god that exists.


By Nate on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 04:31 pm:

    that's the catholic view, spider.


By Spider on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 04:34 pm:

    I think that's like saying our modern understanding of the structure of the solar system is a little iffy because we used to believe that earth was in the middle of things. The sun was there in the middle even when we didn't think so.

    Likewise, taking God's existence as a given, God was always there regardless of what people thought and how they worshipped. So, really, who cares that long ago the Jews were polytheists and didn't believe in what they believe now? That doesn't affect God's nature any more than the ancient conceptions of the cosmos affected the turn of the planets in their orbits.


By Nate on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 04:41 pm:

    so basically you're saying that new evidence has shown that god is omniscient and solo?


By Spider on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 04:43 pm:

    I know it's the Catholic view.

    *sigh* It's always been very difficult for me to think otherwise. Which I know is a flaw in my thinking. But to me, God's existence is just as much a given as my existence is, so I've never seen the point for me to speculate otherwise. "Well, what if I didn't exist?" But I DO exist. So does God. End of speculation.


    And you can argue with me all you want, but the truth is, as you can see, my thinking has not progressed very far and I really wouldn't be able to answer you.

    Read C.S. Lewis. "Mere Christianity" is a good source.


By Spider on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 04:47 pm:

    Re: Omniscient and solo. The evidence is what's contained in the New Testament -- one guy saying this is so. Whether you believe the guy or not, well....


By Cyst on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 04:47 pm:

    every time I see/hear a christian recommend "mere christianity" to a non-christian, I always assume it will be the last. but it never is.


By Spider on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 04:51 pm:

    And I apologize for my lack of clear, reasoned thinking.

    But really, so what?

    Say the atheists are right and there is no God. So I'll have lived a deluded life. So what? So we'll all end up as worm food and that's it, and what will it matter then what I thought in life? Nothing.

    But if I'm right, and there is more than this world, then yay for me.

    So how am I hurting by relying on faith more than reason?


By Markus on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 04:55 pm:

    I knew I could count on Nate. Unfortunately, I'm off to work.


By Jane on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 05:36 pm:

    Re Cain & Abel.

    Nate, do you assume that all questions are asked ONLY when the answer is not known?

    You seem less superficial than that particular example indicates, so I'm thinking that you're intellectualizing just for the fun of it.

    Philosophers (or psychiatrists or even moms & dads) ask questions to stimulate a certain line of thinking or any thinking at all.

    I don't think that omniscience can be determined by whether or not questions are asked.

    Not that I think philosphers, psychiatrists or moms & dads are omniscient.


By Patrick on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 05:37 pm:

    I plan to end up as fertilizer for a pot farm

    what are you people talking about?

    if the tree feel in the forest........yadayadayada

    jesusagechrist!!!!!


By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 05:47 pm:

    Spider, that is known as "Pascal's Wager"
    And the way I see it, even if you do postulate the existance of a supreme being.
    -And assuming that the nature of this being is contained in an existing religious system.
    -And given the number of religions in the world.
    -And given the number of religions that believe that nonbelievers in their specific view of said supreme being are condemned to Hell, Gehenna, Samsara(which sounds just fine to me, if I understand Buddhism, which I don't), what have you.
    -And assuming (relativist that I am) that they all have about an equal chance of being right.

    =Then no matter what I do, my chances of escaping some sort of divine retribution upon my death are pretty slim.

    ==Therefore, I, Lucy Phurre, statistically likely to be a lost soul, strive to live in such a way that, in that instant between realization of the true nature of divinity and the Universe, and the lake of fire, I will be able to say "Yeah, but it was worth it"

    And if there is no god, I'd still rather live than spend my time here waiting to die.

    Besides the fact that: To any god that demands obedience to a specific system out of all the systems that have existed throughout history, any god that selects one culture (whether one of voluntary membership or not) and says "this one gets saved and (literally) to Hell with the rest of the people of the world, morality notwitstanding" and to any God who condones the sort of endless violence perpetrated by "Christians" and then has the nerve to condemn ANYTHING that happens between consenting adults
    I say a big "Non serviam" with a "Fuck you" on the side.

    But fuckit, I'm not going to convince you, just please don't try to convince me.


By Holden on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 06:05 pm:

    I appreciate your directness and candor, Nate.

    I would like to be able to say that the question occurred to me from another perspective, but the truth of the matter is that I seem to be reaching the same conclusion.


By Patrick on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 06:06 pm:

    Buddhism always seems to me to be the most sensible of the majors. it's all about the self and has no strict doctrine to adhere to. It's all abotu self growth, it seems less about "spreading the gospel" than creating your own gospel to the point of which you have answered all of life's questions for yourself


By Cyst on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 06:30 pm:

    depending on the sect, mahayana or hinayana. in one of them, you're supposed to spread the word. or something.

    I second lucy's motion.


By grandpa dolomite on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 07:30 pm:

    frau nate is making assumptions in regard to intent. he's also trying to interpret the mind of god.
    any theologian will tell you that this is a wrong-headed approach. that same theologian will most probably do exactly the same in refutation. hyprocrites.
    in any case, where you go wrong is approaching the bible as if it were a continuous, cohesive work that was written by one hand. it's not. the bible is a collection of mythologies from various sources (many completely pagan) that have been absorbed by christianity. you can't compare a story in the beginning of the bible with one that comes later and deduce that there has been a change in the nature of god because of the way "divinity" is portrayed.
    also, genesis isn't exclusively elohist. the book is a blend of both elohist and yahwist sources.


    five years out of college and i still remember that shit.

    doc heaton would be proud.


By Grandson shaft on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 07:38 pm:

    grandpa, do YOU have any Werthers Originals?


By Grandson shaft on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 07:42 pm:

    grandpa, do YOU have any Werthers Originals?


By Satan on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 07:55 pm:

    "The usual notion of prayer is so absurd. How can those who know nothing about it, who pray little or not at all, dare speak so frivolously of prayer? A Carthusian, a Trappist will work for years to make of himself a man of prayer, and then any fool who comes along sets himself up as judge of this lifelong effort. If it were really what they suppose, a kind of chatter, the dialogue of a madman with his shadow, or even less - a vain and superstitious sort of petition to be given the good things of this world, how could innumerable people find it until their dying day, I won't even say such "comfort" - since they put no faith in the solace of the senses - but sheer, robust, vigorous abundant joy in prayer?

    Could a sane man set himself up as a judge of music because he has sometimes touched a keyboard with the tips of his fingers? And surely if a Bach fugue, a Beethoven symphony leave him cold, if he has to content himself with watching on the face of another listener the reflected pleasure of supreme, inaccessible delight, such a man has only himself to blame."

    -George Bernanos

    from Diary of a Country Priest


By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 08:14 pm:

    Give it up, Satan, you're nothing but a Church flunkie.


By Communication Skills Lucy on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 08:15 pm:

    (not the post, the name)


By grandpa dolomite on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 08:30 pm:

    scratch all that shit.

    i've reread frau nate and now realize that he's on the dolomite.

    proceed and continue.


By MoonIt on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 10:09 pm:

    I've got werthers originals. I love those. mmmmm I'm going to have one right now. mmmmm


By Isolde on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 11:20 pm:

    ok. One question:
    Did God create the universe from nothing? I mean, did he just pull it out of his butt and say: "Look, the universe!" Or did he create it from something...and if he created it from something, how did that something get there? Or was it always there?
    That was more than one question.
    Oh well.
    Wait: One more. If he made it out of something, was that something a Werther's Origional?


By Isolde on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 11:21 pm:

    ok. One question:
    Did God create the universe from nothing? I mean, did he just pull it out of his butt and say: "Look, the universe!" Or did he create it from something...and if he created it from something, how did that something get there? Or was it always there?
    That was more than one question.
    Oh well.
    Wait: one more. If he made it out of something, was that something a Werther's Origional?


By bug on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 11:36 pm:

    i prefer to think of the universe as a giant divine ejaculation impregnating the infinite nothingness with an ever widening, ever growing, ever holy cellular mitosis with the singular purpose of creating patrick.

    call me a romantic.


By Sarah on Wednesday, November 17, 1999 - 11:50 pm:


    oh how i love it when white american males say things like, "look at me for example! i have social mobility! i used to be poor an now i'm wealthy! thus everyone has social mobility!"


    that's just so quaint.







By Lather on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 05:31 am:

    According to current models of physics, He did (and continues to) pull the universe out of His Butt.

    Quantum theory holds, as I understand it, that the fabric of the universe "rips" in the near vicinity of massive objects, spontaneously creating matter/anti-matter particle pairs. One version of Big-Bang holds that a massive flatuation of the above type may be responsible for the creation of our universe.

    I mean, fluctuation.


By Gee on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 07:31 am:

    I learned something on monday about some egyptian god who created something with ejaculate, but I've forgotten it already. I wasn't paying close attention. They showed a picture of him going down on himself, since he usually came by doing That, or just masturbating. Does anyone have any idea what I'm talking about?


By grandma dynamite on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 08:03 am:

    i think you're fantasizing, honey.

    and as far as the universe...
    baby, it's a string thing.


By BK on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 08:19 am:

    I have heard that story, about the egyptian god, I have forgotten which one it was but its an interesting story.


By Nate on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 11:39 am:

    "oh how i love it when white american males say things like, "look at me for example! i have social mobility! i used to be poor an now i'm wealthy! thus everyone has social mobility!"

    white americans are the only americans who are legally and regularly denied education and employment due to the color of their skin.


By Patrick on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 11:46 am:

    they call us whiny

    geeeze bug, you must be my fifth disciple, the rest of us have been looking for you,


    i am flattered.......i think?


By J on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 12:03 pm:

    Nate,I don,t think it has to do with our skin color,it,s just cause we are Americans.


By Bug on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 12:14 pm:

    if you all joined me in the Church of the Well-Endowed Logorrheic and worshipped Patrick, affirmative action wouldn't seem so bad.


By Nate on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 12:23 pm:

    jesus. i can't keep track of everythin.

    spider: i know god. i find this to be one of the saddest statements a christian can make:

    "Say the atheists are right and there is no God. So I'll have lived a deluded life. So what?
    ...
    But if I'm right, and there is more than this world, then yay for me."

    by that line of logic, which is Lucy's point above, you should be diversifying your faith portfolio. you need to get a partial share with all the gods, so that way the bases are covered when you bite it.

    it doesn't exactly portray impeccable faith, either. it seems more that you are so afraid that you won't bail on christ "just in case." this is what the catholic church banks on: fear, guilt. i was of your mind at one time, and i had to kick my way out of the catholic church. the guilt is rough, the addiction is strong.

    and that is really what it is: a powerful addiction. if you can give up god for six months, you'll break it.

    Jane: "Nate, do you assume that all questions are asked ONLY when the answer is not known?"

    In the bible, I assume that every line has intent. there is no superficial detail in the bible. that stated, if you can give me an alternate meaning (reason for the question other than ignorance,) for GEN 4:9, by all means let me hear it.

    In addition, the question on GEN 3:9 needs be explained, because it seems to come from a position of ignorance (how do you hide from an omniscient god?)

    swine: i'm up for discussion on J, E, D, & P.


By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 12:36 pm:

    Ahem, I do agree with Nate on the religion thing.
    (Although pretending that anecdotal evidence is statistically significant in terms of proof of social mobility was really weak. Oh, well, you'll believe whatever serves the interest of your class, however transparent.)
    There is something that I would like to clarify. "In the bible, I assume that every line has intent."
    I agree, but the question is whose?

    God's?
    or the Hebrew authors'?
    Or any of several layers of translators'?
    Or the Concordat of Wyrms'?
    King James's?

    That always bugs me.


By Patrick on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 12:38 pm:

    who are you bug?


By Spider on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 12:40 pm:

    Nate, I gave it up for 4 years after I did some serious research on that whole Inquisition embarrassment, and I consciously decided to come back when I realized that the Church may be fucked but Jesus isn't. And i did the whole shopping around for the best religion deal and also consciously chose to return to Catholicism because it makes the most sense to me. Plus, it's got lots of rules and I like rules. But thank you for your concern.


By Nate on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 12:43 pm:

    (Although pretending that anecdotal evidence is statistically significant in terms of proof of social mobility was really weak. Oh, well, you'll believe whatever serves the interest of your class, however transparent.)

    (everyone has access to all the tools i used to get to where i am: i am a product of public schools. i come from a bad neighborhood. if i can do it, then it is possible, so the problem must not lie in opportunity, but rather in attitude. and that has nothing to do with the color of the skin.)


By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 12:58 pm:

    It has to do with luck, which is why anyone above a 6th grade math level can tell you that anecdotal evidence is not statistically significant.

    It has to do with advantages that come from the way people perceive you. I already explained that to Waffleboy.
    I already explained why Affirmative Action is needed to both Waffle and Oatmeal Boys.
    Now, either go back and read the posts again, because I'm not retyping them, or name yourself after a breakfast food like all the other oppressed rich white boys.


By Patrick on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 01:11 pm:

    god damn it Lucy, where did i ever say i was oppressed. It just there is no reason to be scapegoated in a general way like you and sarah like to do to us whiteboys, it's silly and retroactive. God you women can be so catty at times, making so many excuses for your lack of advancement, sometimes I wonder if you really want things to be equal, because who would you blame then other than yourself. all these things you claimed you explained to us still don't gel, and Please please please don't compare to some 12 year old shit talking idiot, Please do that for me would ya, You know damn well i am in no aligned in way shape or form to that fuck. How can WE be blamed for how OTHERS perceive us?

    damn i was gonna say somethign silly and a little flattering about wanting to wear your underwear but you kinda soured me with that last post...

    (sigh)


By Nate on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 01:16 pm:

    i just want you to explain how affirmative action is not racism.

    this country was built on judeochristian values, one of which is clearly that the sins of the father are not the sins of the son.

    i have never perpetuated preferencial treatment based on race. i have, however, been a victim of it.


By grandpa dolemite on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 01:37 pm:

    click me.

    <<swine: i'm up for discussion on J, E, D, & P.>>

    you're kidding, right?

    the dolemite giveth and the dolemite taketh away.
    you really need to find some new and different way to stir things up around here. this is the upteenth time the affirmative action thing has gone around this block (and you're better off calling affirmative action "sexist", since its greatest beneficiaries have been white women.)
    anyway, when getting paid to surf the net for random points to argue on the sorabji.com gets boring, you could always become a posterboy for these folks.

    i think ward connelly is already a member.


By heather on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 02:27 pm:

    i work fucking hard

    i get more than i ever imagined

    there's so much more to it than this bullshit


By Patrick on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 02:39 pm:

    explain


By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 02:50 pm:

    Oh, no, Swine, just because Patrick and Nate espouse the same views and political changes as those assholes doesn't mean that they should be *associated* with them.
    Heaven forbid they should be held responsible for their attitudes.

    You see, Patrick gets to sterotype women as "catty" and complain about unfair stereotyping of men in the same breath, but we can't call him on it, because he's oppressed and we should all feel sorry for him.

    *sigh*
    I should be so oppressed.

    And Patrick, when the population at large habitually rounds up and slaughters white males at the first sign of economic trouble, you can talk to me about being scapegoated.

    "this country was built on judeochristian values,
    one of which is clearly that the sins of the father are not the sins of the son."
    And you sound like you are being punished very heavily. Didn't you just buy a house? And a new car? You poor thing!

    "i have never perpetuated preferencial treatment
    based on race. i have, however, been a victim of
    it."
    And I am 110% sure that you've benefitted from it a HELL of a lot more. Whether or not you were aware of it (and I don't doubt that you were aware of it... I think that you are intelligent enough to notice shit like that... and it happens all the time).

    I am sorry, but I will never have sympathy for the opression of the segment of the population which comprises the overwhelming majority of high political officeholders and 100% US Presidents because the majority of the American people are predjudiced in favor of that group.
    That is absolutely ludicrous.

    Have you ever, in the workplace, heard your ethnicity mentioned in a whisper?
    I have (some people can't tell I'm Jewish by sight... some can), when I worked in Baltimore (Whispered about a co-worker: "umm... I think she might be Jewish")
    Have you ever heard your ethnicity used as a slur?
    Are you worried about where you are spending Y2K because psychos have been increasingly targeting your ethnicity for hate crimes and you know that, historically, you have been the first to go when society starts breaking up.
    (What is the first thing a European society does when things go wrong?)

    I have experienced all these things and comparatively, I have it extremely easy. There's no comparison.

    Get over it. This is bullshit.


By heather on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 02:53 pm:

    well, technically i don't have time but...

    so, i've already told you (patrick) sort what's up with me and what i'm doing.

    all i'm saying that when i was working i had to demand to be taken seriously by the 'old boys'- being female and looking young- it was very hard work.

    but advantages and disadvantages and life are so complex and include some seemingly insignificant moments which make all the difference.

    and at some point you realize that you're doing all this to win at someone else's game. a game you don't even have to play.


By Patrick on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 03:05 pm:

    "And Patrick, when the population at large habitually rounds up and slaughters white males at the first sign of economic trouble, you can talk to me about being scapegoated."

    why does blood have to be shed in order for me to bitch about being scapegoated? You are scapegoating a whole race and sex for the plight of many. Instead of dealing with the specific source, such as those in control, you take it or vent in form of these types of comments to us around here.

    I am NOT the source of your frustrations, neither is Nate. We had nothing to do with the current situation, we were just born.

    I resort to the classic statment that two wrongs don't make a right.

    I didn't sterotype women on the whole as being catty. I was directly referring to you and Sarah. Not all women are catty, i married one of them. The thing is, I have never asked for any one's pity nor have I ever said i was oppressed. Thats the bullshit that frustrates me, i have never said anything like that, and it frustrates me that you build an argument out of putting words in my mouth and typecasting.

    i am wholly responsible for my attitudes.

    no one is asking for sympathy, at least not me anyway, just back the fuck off, the white males around here (and I can only honestly speak for myself) have had NOTHING to do with the situation at hand.

    Your so caught up with pointing fingers and blaming that it seems you keep yourself down.


By Patrick on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 03:09 pm:

    heather, aren't we all playing someone else's game? I totally understand your situation. I can't say i have expereicned it like you may have, but I can't help that. i have a penis and white skin. My wife deals with it all the time, so i really do understand. There is nothing I can do about it except avoid perpetuating it, which is easy on a personal level because I agree with the correct philosophy. But i have never been in a position to perpetuate it even if I wanted to despite what Lucy seems to think.


By Patrick on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 03:14 pm:

    bottom line it just drives me nuts that you can sit back and point fingers, offer text book solutions, blame blame blame, even those who are on your sidce. You don't take a minute to realize I am on your side as far as any inequality goes inregards to anybody AT ALL. But all you do is blame, scapegoat and generalize and how fucking proactive is that in changing anything at all?

    Lucy wake up, I am on yourside, but not for long if you continue to tell ME how oppressed I am when i have never made any such claim and continue to bash a whole sex and race for actions we personally didn't committ.

    i am not guilty by an association I have no control over.


By heather on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 03:18 pm:

    yes, many people are playing someone else's game- that's what i mean.

    but by the game i don't mean the 'men's game' or whatever but the more disguised game of common sense. the idea that the generally held values and goals are the 'correct' ones- like making money, getting power, being stable, being 'sane', having children, staying young looking... whatever. the stuff that's almost impossible to see outside of.


By Nate on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 03:20 pm:

    But really, Lucy, we all know the jews run the country. why else would we be dumping 30 billion a year into Israel? supporting the jewish oppression of muslim palistine?

    and how can we differentiate between oppressed people when some of the most oppressed people in US history were white (Irish? Polish?)

    we move away from a merit based society and shit starts falling apart.

    people are starting to see the problems with race-based (or gender based) preferential treatment. the only chance we have to move forward is to really make things equitable before the pendulum swings the other way. because it will.

    paradigm is already shifting. the racist and sexist views you spout are at the core no different than the racist and sexist views that 1950's white male archie bunkers spouted. in 10 years time you will be mocked. your children will wonder how people could have been so blind to the injustice the perpetuated.

    and your statistics are foolish. they rely on every brain being the same, when it is plain as day that every brain is not the same.

    it is obvious that men and women are not the same. to think that the reason why women aren't x% of some occupation or y% of some college major cannot be credited wholey to a lack of opportunity. women handle some things better than men do, men handle some things better than women do. women tend towards certian roads while men tend towards certain others. this is why engineering majors are largely male and liberal arts majors are largely women. not because of any discrimination.

    so back into the kitchen. take off those shoes. you're made for making babies.

    we'll handle the hunting.


By Patrick on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 03:33 pm:

    i understand heather

    thanks nate for being more articulate than I on some points


By heather on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 03:39 pm:

    after college i ran into a girl i'd been in first grade with.

    she remembered that at some point, in the answer to some question or whatever, i stood up (in first grade) and announced that i liked math even though i was a girl.

    shit


By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 03:43 pm:

    Okay, Patrick, listen closely.
    YOU are putting words in MY mouth.
    I will make this very fucking crystal clear.

    I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT IT IS YOUR FAULT.
    SWINE HAS NEVER SAID THAT IT IS YOUR FAULT.
    HEATHER HAS NEVER SAID THAT IT IS YOUR FAULT.
    NOBODY HAS SAID THAT IT IS YOUR FAULT.
    THAT IS IN *YOUR* HEAD.
    THAT IS A TEXTBOOK ANSWER.

    What I have said is that you have benefitted from the racial inequality in this country and that whining about it is fucking ridiculous.

    What I have said is that neither of you gentlemen appears to have suffered from discriminatory hiring practices.
    I have been asked to hide my religious jewelry becaues "people think it's the sign of the devil" I have been fired for being Pagan. I have been told not to bother to apply for a job because I am female. I have had to put up with being called "princess" I make 89 cents for every dollar you make for equivalent work.

    I am DAMNED sure that you have not had to put up with any of these things.

    Now, here's another point which you seem to have missed.

    I DO NOT HATE WHITE MALES.

    As a matter of fact, Lather is a white male (and he's blonde, blue-eyed and everything) and I love him more than anything.
    However, if he tried to tell me he was oppressed, I would tell him he was full of shit. In fact, he did once start in on that track, and I told him he was full of shit.

    I have *watched* this man get pulled over for doing 47 in a 25 zone and the pig in question let him off with a warning and told him to drive more carefully and have a nice evening, "sir".
    I have watched a Latino friend get pulled over with no reason given and the pigs in question spent an hour making us stand out in the cold while they searched us and the car.

    I love Lather, but I don't think he's oppressed.

    Fuck it. I will post my essay, and then I'm done for this round.
    It is clear that you and Nate are only interested in having something to whine about and you don't care what the fuck is being said.


By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 03:55 pm:

    And another thing, stop trying to claim credit for lipservice.
    "I'm on your side"
    Well, what have you done to end inequality?

    I'm not saying it's your fault.
    I am saying that you are in a position to make a difference and I'll give you credit when you do so. (getting married doesn't count as trying to change gender roles)


By J on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 04:15 pm:

    1:Heather scored.2:I don,t blame Lucy for being paranoid it,s just smart thinking.3:I think it was Nate that bought the house.4:Lucy, even Waffles has been sterotyped cause he,s from the south,if you can,t lose the accent people think you are stupid and though you two have your different ideas,you know he,s smart.5:Lucy,I,m glad you hooked up with Lather,he seems nice.6:Am I going to have to get the catsuit and whip out?


By heather on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 04:16 pm:

    catsuit and whip? definitely


By Sarah on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 04:47 pm:

    libertarians are much more loathsome than republicans. besides, libertarians are just republicans who don't want to take responsibility for anything.

    affirmative action BARELY scrapes the surface of trying to undo the years of damange done to minorities over the years. it's a wussy little policy and should be a lot more stringent, so quit your fucking whining about reverse discrimination. in spite of affirmative action, white guys still have more opportunity and social mobility.

    reverse discrimination? what a crock of shit.

    if you can come up with a more just way of leveling the economic and education playing field, i suggest you get a platform and run for congress.


By Sarah on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 04:49 pm:

    oh wait, i forgot. libetarian scum don't care anything at all about fairness or feel there's a need to level the playing field.

    every person for themselves!




By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 04:53 pm:

    Nate: I'll get back to you after work.
    But your anti-Semitic tirade, even if you meant it in jest to make some whiny point is, in my book, proof that you are a spoiled, whiny racist. That shit is NOT funny to me, and the fact that you think it is or ever possibly could be proves that you are talking out of your ass and don't have clue one about what it is to be genuinely discriminated against.
    Your blatant display of racism and your lame defense of sexism prove that you and your whiny whiteboy cohorts are all just better-educated, wealthier versions of Oatmeal Boy.
    I've wasted enough time on your whiny ass for now.


By Patrick on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 05:16 pm:

    I don't whine, i have NEVER said I was oppressed!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where did I say this? Nate did, BUT I DIDN'T and i can do nothing about the state of mind of the nation other than not perpetuate it myself. Am I wrong for this? There is no clear cut revolution anymore Lucy and all of your enegry could have been useful 20 years ago, but all of this you speak of is on a personal level now, so unless you are going to go door to door and preach your gospel why do you continue to single out the white fellas around here and scapegoat us. I know you didn't say "I" am to blame per se, BUT you have blamed a whole race and sex for so many things different problems.

    Hello?!?!?!? any one else see the flawed logic here??????

    I know no one else wants to touch this with a 10ft pole, but come on have some balls, surely Lucy, NAte, Sarah and I aren't the only ones with opionons on this, this is important i think in terms of the state of the mind of american culture.

    Because I haven't suffered direct bigotry does that make me part of the problem? You make it out so.


    Lucy if you going to be so pig headed as to call"i am on your side" as lip service then I offer a one finger salute. What I have I done? I have learned from the lessons of the past and enlightend myself and not perpetuated it. You're being combative and pointing your aggression in the wrong direction. If you can tell me SPECIFICALLY how I *THE MAN* can make a difference as far as YOUR plight as a jewish pagen woman goes, i am all ears. PLEASE, I AM BEGGING YOU TO TELL ME WHAT I SHOULD BE DOING TO EARN YOUR PRAISE!!!! PLEASE TELL ME, TELL ME WHAT I CAN DO, BE SPECIFIC!

    "(getting married doesn't count as trying to change gender roles)" WTF?


    women are no longer a minority. You are a majority, if things are so fucked, take it to the streets...lets go, lets get it on and start burning flags and bras, lets get to washingtons doorsteps and demand change!!!!!


By Patrick on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 05:37 pm:

    Lucy, you can't just blame a whole race and gender, it's not that easy. All of the laws are set (you may recall I have never voiced an opinion on affirmative action because i have mixed feelings about it, it's evil but i think it's necessary), all of the checks and balances are in place. It's now up to the individual. The whole white male race is not to be blamed and you can't blame some for feeling cornered and scapegoated and you can't deny some of the repercussions decades of blaming white males will have on the ones who are philosophically on your side, such as I. But thats lip service right? (bullshit). Lip service is what i do to my wife, not to you.


    there is an intersting story yesterday surely to stir things up.

    A woman who was married to a well to do man twice her age (gold digging bitch) won the lottery, but didn't tell her husband about it. She divorced him right away, all the while he was wondering what the hell he did. Well CA is a 50 50 state in terms of divorce without a pre-nup. So when he found out she had won, after the fact, he took her to court saying how half that money was his because she won it while still married. the judge ordered her to surrender all of it for hiding assets during a divorce preceeding.

    What i found interesting is a law spawned by feminist many years ago was turned against a woman (the 50 50 law that is) and now there is a whole uproar about the outcome of the particular case. Yet, had it been a man, if a man had hid his assets during a divorce trial there would have been no discussion, he would have just been penalized and everyone would have favored the woman. No discussion, yet now there is a whole lot of dialog.


By Nate on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 05:49 pm:

    lucy,

    "anti-Semitic tirade" this is how to silence people who raise any points against israel.

    have you been to israel, lucy? you can walk down a street and on your left you'll have clean, rich housing, and on your right you'll have dirt and makeshift shacks. there's a clear distinction between jew and muslim in israel. if you're a muslim you can be pulled into prison and beaten daily and they don't even have to tell you why.

    (http://www.amnestyusa.org/ailib/aireport/ar99/mde15.htm)

    the US government sends $30billion in aid to israel each year. if we put that money into education instead, we'd have a much better start for all sorts of "underprivledged minorities".

    i'm not an anti-semite, whatever you think.









By Susan on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 05:54 pm:

    america isn't a culture, it's an economy. this whole discussion is economically based: the oppressed want something and so do the established. seeing it as a moral issue only clouds the things, so do complaints of reverse discrimination. americans still have such a high standard of what this country will provide for them, that anything that is perceived as lowering these riches is seen as a gross injustice.

    the irish were discriminated against because the came to america en masse after the famine - by the millions. this took jobs away from "americans", or so it seemed. signs were put up that read: help wanted. irish need not apply; cartoons appeared in newspapers depicting the irish as ape-like; they were regarded by many as a separate race. being catholics did not help either. but they were white, and ultimately on became president.

    marx would tell us that this is a natural and inevitable outcome of a capitalist society - you can't expect the don't-haves to sit back.


By Nate on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 06:06 pm:

    Sarah,

    "reverse discrimination? what a crock of shit."

    i agree with this one. discrimination is discrimination.

    "affirmative action BARELY scrapes the surface of trying to undo the years of damange done to minorities over the years. "

    let's fix it, then. let's send 1/5 of the white population (picked by lottery? male and female?) over to africa where they will work without pay or rights until africa's economy is up to par with the US's. another 1/5 of the white popluation will need to become farm workers here in the US, paid a couple of dollars for a full day's work (that is, working for as long as there is light to work by,) with all the money from the farm revenue going to the mexican government (along with most of the south west.) oh shit, there's a lot to do to get the various indigenous empires back up to their past glory.

    you know, that really won't leave a lot a room for us whities.

    fairness is a myth. life isn't fair. no where in the constition does it say that we all get to be happy.

    it just says you get a shot. and we can make the playing field level by giving everyone the same government benefits. we don't do that currently.

    currently, if you're a minority or a woman you get better government benefits.

    in the realm of private business, who you hire and who you promote is your own business. this is how it should be.

    male, female, black, white or yellow we all have our plusses and minuses. i can hardly sleep my way to the top of anything. let's make a law saying that at least one person in management needs to fuck me and promote me because of it.

    while we're at it, let's get sports back to proportions proper to the given population. we're going to have to kick a lot of crackers out of golf, but that's ok... they can go play basketball.

    fuck reality, let's not do anything for the good of society. let's do it so that we can all enter into this dream that everyone is equal.

    that's fair.


By Sarah on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 06:15 pm:

    capitalism has destroyed the fabric of what it means to be human.

    Patrick, unless you can prove to me that the *majority* of people in US government and US economic power are NOT both white and male, i suggest you just shut the fuck up.


    also, are you such an imbecile to think that the word "minority" in a sociopolitical discussion denotes an actual quantity? the last time i checked, there were way more black people in the country of South Africa than white people. so i guess they are not a minority, according to your definintion.

    *plonk*





By Patrick on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 06:24 pm:

    no sarah I stated the obvious....women outnumber the men..i didn't say anythign about power....twist it however you may, i just stated the obvious,


    jesus whose the whiny ones here?

    I am not an imbecile sarah, LAST I CHECKED when referring to majorities and minorities(in a historical context) simple numbers DID qualify, hence the whole fucking appplication of the terms "majority" and "minority" it just so happend that the balance of power worked logically, (i.e. the majority has the power and the minority doesn't)

    And as far as your random africa comment, yes they are the majority. My reference to minority and majority is simply due to numbers, otherwise we use a differnt context to reference those in power and those not


By Patrick on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 06:25 pm:

    sorry "who are" the whiny ones?


By Sarah on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 06:27 pm:

    reality is not fixed. we have the ability to reconstruct our reality in any fashion. if you choose to live in and accept a reality that is unfair and unjust and unequal, so be it.

    me, i'll fight for an alternate reality, in any way that i can.



By Patrick on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 06:27 pm:

    "Patrick, unless you can prove to me that the *majority* of people in US government and US economic power are NOT both white and male, i suggest you just shut the fuck up."


    THIS IS exactly what i am talking about. You sit back and blame blame blame blame..blah blah blah ...the white males have all the power and none for me BOOOO FUCKING HOOOOO" if it is so deplorable, TAKE IT THE fucking streets, but again, i think most women subconciously don't want to be entirely in control because then they have no one to blame but themselves. Self destructing sex....


By Sarah on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 06:30 pm:

    Patrick, i repeat:

    unless you can prove to me that the *majority* of people in US government and US economic power are NOT both white and male, i suggest you shut the fuck up.



By Nate on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 06:30 pm:

    "capitalism has destroyed the fabric of what it means to be human."

    changed, definitely.

    it's the game we have. you can choose how to play.

    if you're not a huge fan of material goods, you can follow phish around and trade phatty sexy seven layer vegan burritos for beer.


By Patrick on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 06:37 pm:

    the *majority* IN the US gov't ARE white and male. I am not arguing with that point. But the US gov't is not entirely responsible for the way things are in America, the frame of mind of the society as whole shapes more policy then the entire governing body. Do more women vote than men, do more women run for office then men? Why not? You out number us? It should be rather easy taking control. If every woman voted for any given female canidate, you would win hands down every single time. Whats the problem? Whats keeping you down? the mysterious hand of *the man*? PLEASE!

    It's out there if you want it, i don't deny you may have to work harder to get it but thats not due to MY way of thinking, but rather the REST of society as a whole. I have the same ideals of equality as you sarah , i just think we differ on a few subordinate points. And tossing the word "imbecile" my way doesn't put you in a favorable light.


By Patrick on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 06:48 pm:

    by the way sarah, pardon any ill timing, i have been meaning to tell you this for sometime, i look at your site from time to time, you do a really nice job with it everytime i see it.....


By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 07:00 pm:

    'Scuse me, Nate, I don't have time to read everything, or to post much, so I will say only 2 things.
    1. I do not approve of Israeli policy, or of US Mideast policy. I think that the US government is destroying the peace of the one safe haven on the planet that I have against racist assholes like you in order to serve their interests (the destabilization of the Middle East)
    2. I classify anything that starts with "The Jews are running this country" as an Anti-Semitic tirade.
    But I guess that's because I'm a white male bashere.


By Sarah on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 07:03 pm:


    hey thanks. check back sometime soon. i'm scanning in some photos later today that i hope to post up before sunday.


By Patrick on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 07:07 pm:

    Lucy, c'mon!! You don't really believe Nate is a racist do you? You have read his bs long enough to know thats just not true. God you get so enraged and flamed. I bet all fo that energy makes you great in bed! It does me!









    MY energy and passion that is!


By Cyst on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 07:28 pm:

    nate, your own example isn't just about attitude but also about smarts.

    you need a combination of both to do well in america, I think. an abundance of one can help make up for a lack of the other.

    I need more of that amway attitude to go out and earn a lot of money. but I know that I'll never be destitute because I'm smart enough to survive in an affluent society.

    I think this weekend I'm going to learn autocad and on monday I'm going to try out a cad geek job that just fell in my lap. what the hell. go get 'em. etc.


By Patrick on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 07:29 pm:

    cad ain't easy cyst. what kind of design, architecture, fashion, engineering?


By Cyst on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 07:34 pm:

    they know I don't know it. they just want someone smart who can learn. something about new fiber-optic lines.


By Nate on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 07:38 pm:

    "But really, Lucy, we all know the jews run the country. why else would we be dumping 30 billion a year into Israel? supporting the jewish oppression of muslim palistine? "

    you have to read that as a paragraph. i was just trying to point out that jews get the lions share of benefit from the US government, and, by your logic (those with the power get the most benefits,) they must be running the show.

    and, btw: i don't believe myself to be a racist asshole. no one who knows me believes i am a racist asshole.

    everyone agrees i'm an asshole, though. i can accept that.

    and i dig everyone who busts my balls on sorabji.com. it makes me think.


By grandpa dolemite on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 07:40 pm:

    christ. i shouldn't even bother wading through all this miserable shit. what a pathetic display.

    anyway, i have a few questions.

    1. what kind of skewed logic makes you think that sending "1/5 of the white population" to africa will do anything to improve the economy there?

    2a. what's with this "people are *starting* to see the problems with race-based (or gender based) preferential treatment." shit?

    2b. why do white guys who complain about race and gender-based preferential treatment always fail to acknowledge that preferential treatment for white males has been the norm in america for hundreds of years?

    2c. <<in the realm of private business, who you hire and who you promote is your own business. this is how it should be.>>
    are you completely ignorant of american history and why the civil rights movement came about in the first place?

    3. do you really think you have the balls to live in the kind of america you favor? i don't. i think you'd be too scared to leave the house.

    4. you say white people are "regularly" denied employment because of the color of their skin. do you have any idea how ridiculous that statement is?

    5. <<black, white or yellow we all have our plusses and minuses.>> are you willing to elaborate on that statement?

    6. is patrick your bitch?

    anyway, blah blah blah.

    wake me up when chucklehead hour is over.


By Patrick on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 07:49 pm:

    "2b. why do white guys who complain about race and
    gender-based preferential treatment always fail to
    acknowledge that preferential treatment for white males has been the norm in america for hundreds of years?"

    Because making a blanket statement about contemporary white males is no longer applicable. We don't deny our past but we can only deal with the now and the majorty of white males do not perpetuate this "historical norm".



    i'm only one person's bitch and last i checked nate doesn't have red hair and great tits so.....


    did you poop today gramps, you seem ill?


By grandpa dolemite on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 07:57 pm:

    wrong answer.


By Patrick on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 07:59 pm:

    if not cranberry juice should do the trick


By mista swine on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 08:09 pm:

    is that what they give you for being the spokesperson for "contemporary white american males"?

    at least all that "We" shit made me laugh. i think laughing got rid of the kink that was in my back.


By Isolde on Thursday, November 18, 1999 - 08:38 pm:

    You know, I have to agree with Patrick here. It seems that most women DO sit around and whine, instead of doing something about their "oppression." The feminist movement, which once I admired for moving forward, taking the fight to the streets, and attempting to help themselves, has turned into...nothing. Apparently, in order to be a feminist now, you have to sit on the couch and whine aout how much the white christian males oppress you. What a bunch of crap. If you want the change, enact it. Don't tell us about how much you're oppressed, mobilize! Mein Gott. Speaking as a woman who managed to work her way into being in the second highest management position for a theatre--behind the founder, a woman, I might add, I can tel you that it IS difficult to advance sometimes, but at least I went out and did it and fought for my cause. I didn't once whine to anybody about how oppressed I was, I went to school and got better than the men, and I told them: "When you have gone through college and paid massive amounts of tuition, then you can talk to me about being better than I am. Now move." Quit whining and start acting. Until then, prithee hold thy peace.
    PS I am not, I admit, Jewish, but Eastern Orthodox, which has gotten me in for an amazing amount of trouble, but I still find no reason to complain about it. If I feel the need to change what people think, I will change it, and I will urge others to do so also. I believe in being tolerant of all people and religions, as well as all sexes, and have no cause to be a man-hater. Men are dandy. So are chicks. Whatever.


By hydrozoa on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 01:19 am:

    amen.

    i say, if you define yourself by your gender, race, or religion, you deserve to be judged by it. you are weak. you are asking for it.

    you are a human; not a woman or an american or a jew. those things may affect your personality, but not your ability. you're a human, as perfectly capable as any other human on the planet. there is no reason for people to discriminate against you, because you can do anything that anyone else can do. view and present yourself accordingly, with confidence and without paranoia or insecurity over statistics, and other people will share your view.

    i really hate it when people blame their problems on whatever is convenient.


By grandma dynamite on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 01:40 am:

    oh, sweet jesus.

    bring me my bucket.


By agatha on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 02:05 am:

    YOU ARE ALL DRIVING ME NUTS. I'M GOING TO BED NOW.


By empty space on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 02:20 am:

    you wouldn't be driven nuts if you'd just remember that you're a human. not a woman, or an american, or someone choking down last night's dinner after reading a bunch of meaningless tripe. it's just a matter of viewing and presenting yourself accordingly. after all, people everywhere will always treat you the way you treat yourself. it's all about blah, blah, blah blah blah, etc, etc.

    christ, i'm making myself sick again.


By hydrozoa on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 02:31 am:

    oh, weren't you an oppressed white male? i can't seem to keep them straight.


By Antigone on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 02:57 am:

    Nate, did you go to college? If so, where?


By Gee on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 04:08 am:

    Hello. I am a woman, and I do not feel weak for saying so. I am much more proud of being a woman than a human. As a whole, I do not approve of humanity. Goodnight.


By Nate on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 11:24 am:

    >1. what kind of skewed logic makes you think >that sending "1/5 of the white population" to >africa will do anything to improve the economy >there?

    you don't think a whole mess of free labor wouldn't boost the economy? it sure helped the US get on its feet. the logic is the same as AA or any other ridiculous race- or gender-based retrobution scheme.


    >2a. what's with this "people are *starting* to >see the problems with race-based (or gender >based) preferential treatment." shit?

    I'm talking about the race or gender based preferential treatment that is currently legal in 49 states (or less?) California voted down affirmative action. i imagine other states will eventually follow suit. we have a generation born post civil-rights movement. when this generation's children have reached the work force, we will have a whole shitload of people who say "not only is this not me, it wasn't my parents, either." when this happens, the meme dies.


    >2b. why do white guys who complain about race >and gender-based preferential treatment always >fail to acknowledge that preferential treatment >for white males has been the norm in america for >hundreds of years?

    i'm 25, man. if race and gender based preferential treatment is wrong, then we shouldn't have it. if it is right, then what are you complaining about?


    >2c. <<in the realm of private business, who you >hire and who you promote is your own business. >this is how it should be.>>
    >are you completely ignorant of american history >and why the civil rights movement came about in >the first place?

    point taken.

    >4. you say white people are "regularly" denied >employment because of the color of their skin. >do you have any idea how ridiculous that >statement is?

    regularly and legally. federal government contracts and jobs. contracts will often go to minority companies, even if their bid is not lowest, so as to promote "fairness". federal jobs: for example, if there is 200 white guys and 1 black guy who apply for a forest ranger job, the black guy is automatically going to get it, if there is a slot to be filled. it doesn't matter where he comes in the testing.

    >5. <<black, white or yellow we all have our >plusses and minuses.>> are you willing to >elaborate on that statement?

    every individual has abilities and disabilities. judgement should be made on merit, not pigment.

    >6. is patrick your bitch?

    patrick is on his own.
    ...


    >Nate, did you go to college? If so, where?

    cal poly, san luis obispo.


By Patrick on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 12:02 pm:

    lets talk about records....


    so last night i was spinning my Mongo Santamaria collection, specifically the record El Pussycat.....so me and the wifey, git nekid, and do the samba around the living room and the cats hear the dubbed "meeeoooooowwwww" on the record and they start to freak to.....it's all good. I love my records...Mongo rules...i love my crazy dead dad for leaving such fine albums!


By Patrick on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 12:10 pm:

    oh yeah and i also cranked out my Richard Pryor and Red Foxx records as well, that some funny shit, again, i want to thank my schizo/paranoid dead dad for leaving me such fine albums. and my new needle is working out fine, however i think i may need a new receiver in the near future, i am still getting abuzz in the left channel but not as bad.....


By Rhiannon on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 12:19 pm:

    Good idea.


    What do you do when a record disappears?

    I have the cover to Fleetwood Mac's "Mystery to Me," but no record. It was left to me by my aunt A., who also left me all her Elton John records, some Led Zeppelin, and some other stuff like Chick Corea.

    I so clearly remember listening to that Fleetwood Mac album as a kid, so I know I did have the record at one time. But now it's gone. I can't find one Led Zep. album either...the one with "Stairway to Heaven" on it, with the artwork of the hermit holding the lantern.

    I also lost one green sock when I did my laundry yesterday. Aunt A. also gave me the green socks.


By Patrick on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 12:27 pm:

    i am anal fuck with my records, THEY DO NOT vanish. CD's sometimes, especially to and from my car......but records, they go straight from the turntable to the static sleeve to the cover.....


By MapleLeaf on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 12:48 pm:

    Rhi...here's a tip on how not to lose socks...when you buy them....pin them together with a safety pin....when you wear them remove safety pin...before going into laundry pin them together again.

    Result....you will never lose a sock again...and you will always have matching socks on.


By Rhiannon on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 12:55 pm:

    Hey, good idea!


By Patrick on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 12:59 pm:

    unless you *forget* to pin them together, if you forget or loose them to begin with what is to say you won't forget or loose the damn saftey pin


By MapleLeaf on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 01:24 pm:

    Not a problem around my house....always lots of safety pins availablle.

    Some of my friends do it also....earns all kinds of 'brownie points' with the Warden. There is nothing worse than having a pile of black and white laundered socks thrown at you and you have to match them up to put in a drawer. If they are pinned together in pairs you can even watch a hockey game while doing it.... never miss a play.


By mista swine on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 01:43 pm:

    pos:
    the instamatic focal point bringing damage to your boroughs
    we some brothers from the east with some beats that be thorough
    got the solar gravitation so i'm bound to pull it
    i gets down like brothers are found ducking from bullets
    gun control means using both hands in my land
    where it's all about the cautious livin'
    migrating to a higher form of consequence, compliments
    of strugglin', that shouldn't be notable,
    man every word i say should be a hip hop quotable.

    dove:
    i'm sick of bitches shakin' asses
    i'm sick of talkin' about blunts,
    sick of versace glasses,
    sick of slang,
    sick of half-ass awards shows,
    sick of name brand clothes.
    sick of r&b bitches over bullshit tracks,
    cocaine and crack
    which brings sickness to blacks,
    sick of swoll' head rappers
    with their sicker-than raps
    clappers and gats
    makin' the whole sick world collapse
    the facts are gettin' sick
    even sicker perhaps
    stickabush to make a bundle to escape this synapse

    pos:
    man life can get all up in your ass baby, you betta work it out
    let me tell you what it's all about
    a skin not considered equal
    a meteor has more right than my people
    who be wastin' time screaming who they've hated
    that's why the Native Tongues have officially been re-instated

    (vibes....vibrations)
    stakes is high
    (higher than high)
    you know them stakes is high
    (higher than high)
    when we talkin' 'bout the
    (vibes....vibrations)
    stakes is high, you know them stakes is high
    when we dealin' with the
    (vibes....vibrations)
    stakes is high
    (hey yo, what about that love?)

    pos:
    yo, it's about love for cars, love for funds
    loving to love mad sex, loving to love guns
    love for opposite, love for fame and wealth
    love for the fact of no longer loving yourself, kid
    we living in them days of the man-made ways
    where every aspect is vivid,
    these brothers no longer talk shit
    hey yo, these niggas live it
    'bout to give it to you 24/7 on the microphone
    plug one translating the zone
    no offense to a player, but yo, i don't play
    nigga take offense? fuck it, it gotta to be that way
    j.d. dove, show your love, what you got to say?

    dove:
    i say g's are making figures at a high regard
    and niggas dying for it nowadays ain't odd
    investing in fantasies and not god
    welcome to reality, see times is hard
    people try to snatch the credit, but can't claim the card
    showing out in videos, saying they cold stars
    see, shit like that will make your mama cry
    better watch the way you spend it
    'cause the stakes is high

    y'all know them stakes is high
    when we talkin' 'bout the
    (vibes....vibrations)
    stakes is high

    i think that smiling in public is against the law
    'cause love don't get you through life no more
    it's who you know and "how you, son?"
    and how you gettin' in, and who the man holding
    hey yo, and how was the scams and how high
    yo what up, huh? i heard you caught a body
    seem like every man and woman shared a life with John Gotti

    pos:
    but they ain't organized!

    dove:
    mixing crimes with life enzymes
    taking the big scout route
    and niggas know doubt
    better than they know their daughters
    and their sons
    (oh boy)

    pos:
    yo, people go through pain and still don't gain
    positive contact just like my main man
    who got others cleaning up his physical influence
    his mind got congested
    he got the nine and blew it
    neighborhoods are now hoods cause nobody's neighbors
    just animals surviving with that animal behavior
    under i who be rhyming from dark to light sky
    experiments when needles and skin connect
    no wonder where we live is called the projects
    when them stakes is high you damn sure try to do
    anything to get the piece of the pie
    electrify
    even die for the cash
    but at last we be out even though you wantin' more
    this issue is closed like an elevator door
    but soon re-opened once we get to the next floor...

    where the stakes is high.


By Lucy Phurre on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 03:09 pm:

    Nate:
    "i was just trying to point out that jews get the lions share of benefit from the US government, and, by your logic (those with the power get the most benefits,) they must be running the show."

    You know, maybe it's because I'm a white male basher, but I always thought that holding the overwhelming majority of high political offices and controlling the overwhelming majority of wealth and capital resources was of greater benefit than the destruction of the peace of one's only safe haven in the world combined with periodic witch hunts at home.
    However, this is obviously not true, as everybody knows that we are in control of all the money (evidence to the contrary notwithstanding, it's just common knowledge, right?)
    And we can ignore the fact that I can't keep my finances straight to save my life (Lather has to advise me, but maybe the fact that I'm a money-obsessed Jew is counterbalanced by the fact that I'm an ineffectual female)
    I still expect to be shot because people like you think all I think about is money.
    And we can ignore the fact that all my family ever got from the US government was blacklisted (like most of the American Jewish community in the thirties, fourties, and late 50s/early sixties)
    And we can ignore the fact that anybody who wanted us to get involved in WWII sooner and stop the genocide being perpetrated in Germany and Eastern Europe was blacklisted immediately afterwards for "premature antifascism," which was considered proof of Communist sympathies.
    And we can ignore the fact that the US government proved that WWII did not have anything to do with any kind of concern for the world's Jewish community, as the US government turned away thousands of Jews seeking asylum and sent them to die in Germany.
    But we get the lion's share of benefits from the US gov't.... I know it must be true, Nate said so.

    Nate, congratulations... you have proven the straw that broke the camel's back in convincing me that I am not safe spending Y2K in California. I am spending the new year in Baltimore, where I don't hear Zionist conspiracy theories from everyone I talk to or get yelled at on the street (I got yelled at on Castro St. in Mountain View just last week, by somebody to whom I hadn't said word one... All I did was walk down the street and look Jewish. All I wanted was to get a nice dinner.) I fully expect to see a pogrom in my lifetime, probably in a couple months, but the climate here (as evidenced by Nate and many others) is hostile enough that I think this is one of the places it will start and, if I stay in Baltimore, I'll at least have some lead-time in which to prepare myself or get myself and my family out of the country. (Maple Leaf, what's the situation and asylum procedures for Canada. I fully expect to need that information.)

    I have learned how to shoot and I am joining JPFO as soon as I get time (of course, I will now be getting a Maryland gun license first). So again, congratulations, Nate, you and your "Libertarian" (closet Nazi) buddies have convinced another US citizen to become a gun owner, albeit not quite in the way you expected. DISCLAIMER: This is not a threat. I am not a terrorist. I don't shoot at people who aren't shooting at me.
    So don't start.
    (Of course, you won't believe that because I must be a Zionist extremist)

    And the part about making a blatantly racist statement and then saying "but I'm not a racist" was fucking classic. Oatmeal Boy (and every other racist I've ever met) would be proud.

    Patrick: I never said you were whining about being discriminated against. I said you were whining about being scapegoated. The part about whining about being discriminated against was for Nate.
    As for getting involved, I don't know what organizations are active in your area, I don't know, but I can ask my sister if you are interested in getting involved.
    As for what you can do, as a member of the priveleged race and gender, you do have an above-average likelihood of speaking out and being heard.

    And, Patrick, I do think that you mean well, but I was raised to consider political action a civic duty, and to know that good intentions and an enlightened personal attitude, while admirable, are not enough. I'm sorry if I was a little hard on you... perhaps I forget that not everybody was taught effective organizing techniques from the cradle (The Joe Hill song was one of my favorite lullabies as a child).
    And you are right... Affirmative Action is not a perfect solution, but it is absolutely necessary, it is our best option, and the benefits far, far, far, far outweigh the disadvantages.

    Furthermore, to the general audience:
    Why is it that white males only make these impassioned pleas for colorblind, genderblind globalism when their priveleges are being called into question?
    The fact is that you are either part of the problem or you are part of the solution and, in a system in which there is a difference in public perception (particularly relevant to effective political action)is different for differrent races, there is a responsibility that falls on those who can be heard, if not to take positive action, at least not to stand in the way of it. And if you do stand in the way of it, you can expect to be held accountable for your actions (in other words, I will not be happy about it, and you have no call whatsoever to bitch about being flamed) However, it seems that responsibility only applies to the poor and minorities.
    The argument against Affirmative Action generally used boils down to: racism is bad, but the solution can't involve race. The scary part is that white males do hold the political power, and the power to speak out and be heard are enforcing this rule, effectively blocking the way to true racial equality.


By Nate on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 03:32 pm:

    "the power to speak out and be heard are enforcing "

    this is obvious bullshit.. look at your response: you branded me a racist for stating views that disagree with racist policies.

    yes, the removal of US funds to Israel (30 Billion a year... the lions share i'm talking about ... would restore peace to the area. it would remove from israel the ability to defend itself from all the countries that hate it around it. if the US turned a blind eye for the muslims (instead of for the jews,) we could say good bye to israel.

    i have nothing against jews. you, on the other hand, are extremely racist. all i have done is brought up simple facts. but anyone who speaks out against our fucked up policy w/ israel is automagically termed a racist. i am a racist because i am white.

    you don't know anything about my background. you know nothing about what my ancestors went through.

    irish, catholic, polish, amerindian, african... my history is full of oppression. you ever see multi-enthic as a choice in the "ethicity" box? they don't even acknowledge what I am.

    look back. i have not made a single personal attack against you.

    "The fact is that you are either part of the problem or you are part of the solution and, in a system in which there is a difference in public perception (particularly relevant to effective political action)is different for differrent races, there is a responsibility that falls on those who can be heard,"

    this is EXACTLY my point. you are officially part of the problem.


By Patrick on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 03:41 pm:

    god damn Lucy, overeaction?

    You know ther are all kinds of freaks in SF who scream and yell for all kinds of reasons. I have Jewish friend in SF who has never experienced anything you are referring to. I think you are perfectly safe in california, REALLY! I think you might be overeacting and a little inflammatory about Nate and the whole matter.

    Lucy frankly I gave up on political actions long ago. After marching for NARAL, PETA, walking out of school when the Rodney King veridct came, signing petitions, calling my congressfolk etc etc ..MY voice is no more heard than yours. Really! I realized that my actions didn't have any results, and i am a results orientated guy......i gave up political acting in a system I do not necessarily agree with to boot. The politics of this nation are simply a puppet show to keep us amused. It's all about personal power and we have to rely on the individual now. We have to rely on the teachings of our teachers and our parents to make and do the right thing. You just can't change the imbedded attitudes of a generation. Sexism will never go away, racism will never go away, justice will never be fully served with a side of your choice of potato. SORRY! I don't vote anymore for a system that has failed me and many others. How has it failed me? It has failed to respect the constitution, it has failed to respect personal privacy, it has failed to respect human rights, it has failed to lead the world in a responsible and civil manner given the amount of wealth we have. Again, the whine about white males holding the power, i refer you to my comment to sarah, women out number men, white women out number all other minoritiy fems, how come more women aren't in office? the path is cleared. You have the podium, you have the floor, you have the numbers to put you in office. How come you aren't there? The laws all stand in your favor. Hell even during wartime when us fellas are shedding blood for a souless gov't, you ladies should be able to step in b/c we aren't around to vote and you aren't required to serve. I'm sorry but the blame game is just old. Scrapping about he balance of power and the white old men will get you nowhere. You have all the personal power you can get, the question is what are YOU going to do with it.

    And Lucy, if you can cite a privelege I have over you that does not include my race or gender i urge you to do so. I have no more access to education than you, I have no moe access to jobs than you, I have no more access to medical care than you. NOW if my personal progression in life has put me ahead, it's becasue of my achievements NOT my race or gender, AND if in fact i was given the job at a queer publication simply because I am a man and white, it was without my doing and I am certainly not to blame. I also want you to tell me what prevents you from being heard anymore than I. If you make these bold statements I expect factual evidence to back them up.


By Patrick on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 03:45 pm:

    "you don't know anything about my background. you know nothing about what my ancestors went through. "

    "look back. i have not made a single personal attack against you."



    god nate that sounds so famililar when Lucy and I went a fews rounds a few months ago....


By hydrozoa on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 03:46 pm:

    you're stereotyping yourself.


By Nate on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 03:51 pm:

    Lucy has the victim mentality. it doesn't matter if you're right or wrong, if she doesn't like what you say she's going to attack it. and attack you.


By Lucy Phurre on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 04:26 pm:

    A. Nate is a fucking Nazi and has lost any respect I ever had for him.
    He assumes (despite the fact that I expressly stated that I disapproved of it, that I must support the US policy on Israel because I'm Jewish.
    You keep accusing me of trying to silence your objections to a policy to which I also object.
    Why would I do that. You have chosen to ignore my statement on my beliefs SOLELY because of my race.
    But you're not a racist. Sure.
    Asshole.
    B. "You are extremely racist"..."I haven't made a single personal attack on you"
    In one fucking post.
    C. Someone who claims to be oppressed and discriminated against immediateley after buying a new car *and* a home in the most expensive real estate market on the planet has absolutely no place accusing *anyone* else of having a victim mentality.

    Patrick: I can't realistically be President (legislation allows for it, but you and I both know that it's never going to happen). You can. There's your privelege.
    End of fucking story.

    As for individuals not making a difference, that attitude is precisely why this country is fucked up. A movement is made up of thousands of individuals. If each one acts like Patrick (and I'd rather they acted like Patrick than Nate, who I consider to have come within a hair of openly threatening both myself and Swine with racist violence), nothing ever changes.
    Yes, one person does make a difference. With a little help from his/her friends.
    If you don't think just voting is enough... get 10 of your friends to register... and tell them to get 10 of their friends to register. That shit can, and does, add up.


By Patrick on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 05:00 pm:

    "Nate is a fucking Nazi"

    as someone who has been victim to your rampages,THIS IS WAY OVERBOARD!


    "Patrick: I can't realistically be President (legislation allows for it, but you and I both know that it's never going to happen). You can. There's your privelege. End of fucking story."

    playing the victim, no, i don't know this can't happen, you have the means to change, the policies are in your favor, what is stopping you? The mentality of the nation..... no march, no protest, no rally will change the minds of joe six pack and punch clock willy. If anything they only further root the mentalities of the opposition no matter how fucked up they are. Example, a gay pride march and protest will only align and bring the KKK out of the woods in a more passionate way...not that gay pride, black pride, fem pride what have you should refrain from doing this sort of thing, but you are no longer up against a fallable gov't but rather a stubborn pig headed society deep rooted with all kinds of ills you will waste a life time trying to change.

    "(nate)...who I consider to have come within a hair of openly threatening both myself and Swine with racist violence)"

    playing the victim aligning herself with someone else to gain support




By Nate on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 05:53 pm:

    >Nate is a fucking Nazi and has lost any respect >I ever had for him.

    a large branch of my tree died when the nazi war machine rolled over poland.

    >You keep accusing me of trying to silence your >objections to a policy to which I also object.
    >Why would I do that. You have chosen to ignore >my statement on my beliefs SOLELY because of my >race.

    this is the only point i made about jews, to which you flew off the handle. back peddle all you want, but (unless mark thomas is in the same secret nazi gang i am and is changing words as we speak,) anyone can scroll up and see the truth.

    >Someone who claims to be oppressed and >discriminated against immediateley after buying >a new car *and* a home in the most expensive >real estate market on the planet has absolutely >no place accusing *anyone* else of having a >victim mentality.

    if there are no wealthy jews, blacks, latinos/as, lesbians, gays, or women, then your point is made and i'll back down. if there are, i assume my point is made and you're babbling like a lunatic.

    >who I consider to have come within a hair of >openly threatening both myself and Swine with >racist violence

    you've lost it, Lucy. i am not a violent man (oh wait, you're assuming I am because i'm white? or is it that testicle thing?) i really, really doubt swine thinks i've threatened him in any way, but you can ask him that yourself.

    if anything, i'd be willing to bet swine thinks were are both fools.

    but go ahead and dig up any threatening statement, expressed or implied. with or without an immediate disclaimer. you won't find one. because there isn't one.


By Patrick on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 05:56 pm:

    (TAG)


By grandpa dolemite on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 06:12 pm:

    b00gnsh: you pissed at me?
    BlindSwine: die whitey.
    BlindSwine: not particularly.
    BlindSwine: i think you suffer from historical short-sightedness.
    BlindSwine: and bad foresight as well.
    b00gnsh: could be.
    b00gnsh: i imagine i'll grow out of it.
    BlindSwine: it's naive to think that hiring/promotion is based only on merit.
    b00gnsh: i have a CD for you, but i fucked up and there is gaps between tracks.
    BlindSwine: it's naive to think that it will ever be completely based on merit. send the cd.
    b00gnsh: ok.
    b00gnsh: "Nate, who I consider to have come within a hair of openly threatening both myself and Swine with racist violence"
    BlindSwine: i was just reading that.
    b00gnsh: whatever i've said, lucy's buttons are big, easy to push, and verify her sanity.
    BlindSwine: because she has been victimized in the past doesn't necessarily mean she has a victim mentality. you've thrown her into a fit because your words probably bring back memories of events you'll probably never experience.
    BlindSwine: experiencing those kind of events is a powerful thing. it shapes your world-view.
    BlindSwine: i'm betting that everything she says is a direct result of that.
    BlindSwine: because she doesn't feel safe does not make her insane.
    b00gnsh: i think she's skitzo, personally.
    b00gnsh: it's a little more than not feeling safe.
    BlindSwine: maybe she is, maybe she isn't. that's really besides the point. the point is that she has reason to feel the way she does.
    BlindSwine: anyway, i was about to post just that. maybe i'll just post this IM instead.
    b00gnsh: be sure you start with "die whitey"
    BlindSwine: definitely.


By Lucy Phurre on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 07:46 pm:

    Thank you, Swine. You rock and you brought a real sense of perspective to this discussion. That reminded me of Gregory Bateson's metalogues.
    (I love Bateson)

    Nate: I am still having trouble seeing where you get off telling me I have a victim mentality.
    You just bought a house, and a new car. You belong to the most priveleged segment of the population of most priveleged nation in the world and you are wealthy. And you want pity because of vague claims of discrimination. I give hard examples of actual discrimination and I am told that I have a victim mentality.
    Your problem is one that I have observed in countless Thelemites, Objectivists, and Libertarians. It's the "Everyone but me is responsible for their own actions and their own lives... I'm a victim of an unfair system"
    It doesn't work that way.

    As for my calling you a racist, I stand by it. You are still ascribing Zionist attitudes to me based solely on my race. I defy you to fucking show me one example of one thing that I have said that could possibly be construed as endorsing in any way, the US's mideast policy.
    I am disgusted by it. I have said so. Repeatedly. But you will ignore this, just like you have ignored every goddamned point I made, and slap on whatever stereotyped label your racism tells you must fit.

    As for your making threats... you have been consistently quoting the propaganda of organizations that exist for the sole purpose of killing me.

    As for Swine, I had the wrong post (it comes of scanning on very short work breaks) I apologize for dragging Swine into it.

    I do not retract the sense of threat, though.

    Everybody I've spoken to in this state knows a lot of Jew jokes and believes in Zionist conspiracies.
    That is not normal. That is not a sign of a place where I want to be during a massive social upheaval.
    And I don't think that the persecution of the Jews is over. This is a normal length interval between pogroms.

    And it's people like you who perpetrate them. People who will say they think something is wrong, but continue to participate in it. People who want racism to end, as long as it doesn't impact their special treatment.
    And people who are all too eager to blame problems on a minority that has a few successful members they can point at, and a record of not fighting back significantly since the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem (Well, that last part is going to change if I have anything to say about it).


By Patrick on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 08:19 pm:

    lucy the thought came across, do you go to temple every week? are you a practicing jew? Just wondering becasue if you don't I have hard time how you can say "we".

    It's a religion right? So is it truely racism to promote hate towards a particular religion? Not that that detracts from the seriousness of it, or make it any less right or wrong, it's till bigotry eitherway ....

    i may be splitting hairs butI have to wonder if you are just as passionate about the monks in Tibet and the Fu Long in China being persecuted for their practice.

    i suspect not because you belong to neither of those groups, nor do the injustices they suffer happen here.....


By Simon on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 08:29 pm:

    The Bill of No Rights

    We, the sensible of the United States, in an attempt to help everyone get
    along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid any more riots, keep our
    nation safe, promote positive behavior and secure the blessings of debt-free
    liberty to ourselves and our great-great-great grandchildren, hereby try one more time to ordain and
    establish some common sense guidelines for the terminally whiny, guilt-ridden,
    delusional, and otherliberal, commie, pinko bedwetters.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that a whole lot of people were
    confused by the Bill of Rights and are so dim that they require a Bill of No Rights.

    ARTICLE I
    You do not have the right to a new car, big-screen color TV or any other
    form of wealth. More power to you if you can legally acquire them, but no one is
    guaranteeing anything.

    ARTICLE II
    You do not have the right to never be offended. This country is based on
    freedom, and that means freedom for everyone -- not just you! You may leave
    the room, turn the channel, express a different opinion, etc., but the world is full
    of idiots, and probably always will be.

    ARTICLE III
    You do not have the right to be free from harm. If you stick a screwdriver
    in your eye, learn to be more careful, do not expect the tool manufacturer
    to make you and all of your relatives independently wealthy.

    ARTICLE IV
    You do not have the right to free food and housing. Americans are the most
    charitable people to be found, and will gladly help anyone in need, but we are
    quickly growing weary of subsidizing generation after generation of professional
    couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than the creation of another generation
    of professional couch potatoes.

    ARTICLE V
    You do not have the right to free health care. That would be nice, but
    from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in public health care.

    ARTICLE VI
    You do not have the right to physically harm other people. If you kidnap,
    rape, intentionally maim or kill someone, don't be surprised if the rest of us
    get together and kill you.

    ARTICLE VII
    You do not have the right to the possessions of others. If you rob, cheat,
    or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don't be surprised if the
    rest of us get together and lock you away in a place where you still won't have the
    right to a big-screen color TV or a life of leisure.

    ARTICLE VIII
    You do not have the right to demand that our children risk their lives in
    foreign wars to soothe your aching conscience. We hate oppressive governments
    and won't lift a finger to stop you from going to fight if you'd like. However, we do
    not enjoy parenting the entire world and do not want to spend so much of our time
    battling each and every little tyrant with a military uniform and a funny hat.

    ARTICLE IX
    You do not have the right to a job. All of us sure want you to have one,
    and will gladly help you along in hard times, but we expect you to take advantage
    of the opportunities in education and vocational training laid before you to make
    yourself useful.

    ARTICLE X
    You do not have the right to happiness. Being an American means that you
    have the right to pursue happiness -- which, by the way, is a lot easier if you are
    unencumbered by an overabundance of idiotic laws created by those around you
    who were confused by the Bill of Rights.



By Simon on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 08:31 pm:

    yeah I know the formatting's fucked. sorry.


By Commie Pinko Lucy on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 08:43 pm:

    Patrick: Yes, I am passionate about religious freedom the world over, although I prefer to act locally, we all choose our battles.
    And no, I do not go to Temple every Saturday (although I am studying Kabbalah and am arranging Hebrew lessons)
    But the fact that I am not practicing does not protect me from persecution for my Jewish heritage and my Jewish features.
    Being Jewish is both an ethnicity and a religion.

    Simon:
    I'm not even goint to bother.


By _____ on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 09:02 pm:

    i keep expecting oatmeal boy to re-animate.

    this thread is all about why we are doomed.

    congrats to everyone here who was born intelligent, white, american men. good job. you should be proud.

    regrets to the others.


By hydrozoa on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 10:50 pm:

    lucy sez:

    Patrick: I can't realistically be President (legislation allows for it, but you and I both know that it's never going to happen). You can. There's your privelege. End of fucking story.
    ---
    why not? because you're jewish? because you're a woman? or because you don't want actually to be president anyway? the third one is the only one that sounds viable in any way.

    i have a hunch that all of this discrimination you're talking about is in your head. this is not 1940. i know for a fact that the world is not crawling with people who hate you for no good reason. i would have heard about it. personally, i've never even met a person who had a problem with jews. the only racism i've ever encountered regarding jews is from my father, who says that jews are the smarter than other people, and from my jewish friend, zachary, who says that all of the best musicians are jews. if there is a generalization, it seems to be in your favor. the rest of what you cite as discrimination is sounds like fiction to me, if even if it's not, it hardly seems substantial or limiting. someone said they thought you were jewish behind your back. you are! what's the problem? some crazy motherfucker yelled at you. so what? did you believe it? no? well, he's a just crazy motherfucker, so move on.

    you're awfully fragile. you probably wouldn't make a very good president.


By Agatha on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 11:23 pm:

    it's all just shades of gray. i have no idea where to begin on this, so i guess i won't.


By Gee on Saturday, November 20, 1999 - 02:11 am:

    In this thread is the reason why I want to disect Swine's brain.




    Hey. That's kinda funny. I couldn't disect the pig in middle school, but I'm perfectly willing now.


By Semillama on Saturday, November 20, 1999 - 03:06 pm:

    hehe. IMO, this whole thread is the best argument I have read for the adoption of E-Prime. I think Lucy at least must have run across the R.A.W. discussions of E-Prime. Let's examine a couple statments from above as they were posted and in E-prime:

    "Nate is a Fucking Nazi"
    "Nate seems like a fucking Nazi to me."
    The first statement appears absolutist and is probably based on incomplete data and most likely related to an individual worldview and not from any presonal knowledge of the other individual.
    The second comes right out and says this and may be more open to reasonable discussion, such as "why do you think I am a Nazi?" and "How do you define 'Nazi'?" instead of sparking an ultimately meaningless and pointless debate.

    another good one:"God you women can be so catty", which was followed later by the statement " Ididnot say all women were catty"

    Ok, I believe that's what Patrick meant, but it wasn't what he said (which seems to be the whole problem here). You might have said Some but not all women seem catty to me" and you may not have taken the heat for the comment.

    Ok.
    To use the somewhat akward but useful word "sombunall" (some but not all, said really fast), here what i think:
    Sombunall white male americans are more priviledged than other folks in this country.
    Sombunall people who hold views similar to those expressed by Nate might be Nazis.
    Sombunall people who hold views similar to those expressed by Nate might believe that every person should be regarded on their personal merits regardless of how their ancestors where treated in the past or how other folks view them.
    Sombunall people who hold views similar to those expressed by Lucy might be radical social feminists.
    Sombunall people who express views similar to Lucy's might be paranoid schizophrenics.
    Sombunall people who express views similar to patrick's may be whiney white males who have never truly felt the lash of oppression.
    Sombunall people who express views similar to patrick's may be outraged by any discrimination perpetrated against any one.
    Sombunall people who express views similar to Semillama's may be crackpot dumbshits.
    Sombunall people who express views similar to Semillama's may just want to sit every one down with someone like Swine, have that person select some groovy music, and pass around the peace pipe and swear to not resort to sweeping all-inclusive statements in the future that clouds the real problem.


    if Hitler had used "Sombunall Jews are subhuman" instead of All jews are subhuman" in his thinking, well...Nate, Lucy and I might all still have a lot more relatives in eastern Europe right now.
    so, think about that.


    of course, that takes all the fun out of calling each other catty women and nazis, though, doesn't it?


By heather on Saturday, November 20, 1999 - 03:17 pm:

    where can i get some Sombunall?- i've had trouble sleeping


By droopy on Saturday, November 20, 1999 - 03:47 pm:

    damn shame about article V:
    no free health care.
    if it weren't for the fact
    that i'm still paying off
    an operation i had to have
    two fucking years ago
    i'd probably be able to afford
    a new TV,
    maybe even cable.


By semillama on Saturday, November 20, 1999 - 04:48 pm:

    just find your local witch doktor for sombunall, plus some of doz big pink uppers and little pink downers and the ones that make the top of your head pop of and the bluebirds orbit your head, all kinds of PILS. PraBob! EYyiyiyiyiyiyi


By Me...... on Saturday, November 20, 1999 - 05:56 pm:

    don't talk about pills........i LIKE pills......


By semillama on Sunday, November 21, 1999 - 03:45 pm:

    I'm talking about PILS.


By Lather on Monday, November 22, 1999 - 10:30 am:

    Well thanks for fucking up my weekend.

    What an eye opener. I'm so glad I waded through this thread. I had no idea, but I now know why I had to endure an agonizing and interminally drawn-out argument, over nothing, before this weekend even started. Now I know why Lucy & I almost broke up, over NOTHING!

    Please, please - can you lighten up on Lucy?
    Yes, she is paranoid. Yes, she will go off if you post anything negative about Israel, jews, or jewish conspiracy theories. You know this, so why do it? Fun? "Let's poke the poor wounded thing with a stick and watch it squirm"???

    There may be some valid points being made, or not, but it sure seems like you just want to hurt each other.

    >you are a human; not a woman or an american or
    >a jew. those things may affect your personality,
    >but not your ability. you're a human, as
    >perfectly capable as any other human on the
    >planet.
    Hydrozoa, thank you for your insightful message.

    Lucy, you do over-react when these things are mentioned. You loose your normal sense of logic, tolerance, etc. It makes rational discussion of these issues with you impossible. It doesn't matter what views I hold. I either shut up, or we go into an insoluble arguement. One where I am constantly forced to defend a viewpoint I don't even hold, just to try to keep the "discussion" balanced.

    >I bet all fo that energy makes you great in bed!
    Patrick, I'm not even going to respond to this.

    Well, ok - I admit we did fuck like rabbits. Maybe there is something to this. Hmmm. I'll let you know if Lucy and I are still together after the next few hours/days.

    I definately risk our relationship with this post.
    Hope it was worth it.


By Margret on Monday, November 22, 1999 - 10:49 am:

    I used to think I didn't post much to these because I lacked moral courage.
    Now I know it's just that it hurts my head.
    Well, maybe they're the same thing.


By Patrick on Monday, November 22, 1999 - 11:46 am:

    i think you know there was no harm meant with that comment lather, i could have guessed that this thread could have started shome shiyat at home. we should disclaimed it in the beginning for ya pal!


By Nate on Monday, November 22, 1999 - 12:14 pm:

    Hi Lucy,

    I want to apologize for getting you so wound up. I want to attribute this to two things, the first being my ability to detach myself emotionally from any arguement (especially here.) I generally assume that everyone is this way, even though my girlfriend reminds me over and over again that this is fairly unique (and apparently extremely annoying,) trait. The second is that I love argument (which I call discussion,) and have recognized (at least subconsciously,) that maintaining calm while the person you are discussing with gets emotional can lend a certain credibility to your cause. hence the button pushing.

    while both of those reasons are valid, ultimately this has been a gross error in my judgement. it is unfair for me to have used this media to cause you undue "real world" pain, stress your relationships or ruin your weekend. I feel badly that this is the case. i do not expect you to accept this apology, but i am truely sorry.

    i was going to try to clarify my arguements further, because i do feel mis-represented by the "nazi" and "racist" labels. i think i'll just drop it instead.

    and good luck with Lather. i think he means well, even though he came off like a dickhead in that last message.


By Lucy Phurre on Monday, November 22, 1999 - 01:09 pm:

    Nate, I appreciate the fact that you are able to apologize.
    When I spoke to Lather, he said that I was wrong because my race affected my perspective. It is easy for you to be detached on this issue... it's not a survival issue for you. It is a survival issue for me and I think that it is unrealistic for you not to expect that to color my perspective.
    (And the reason we had the argument is that his father is an anti-Semitic asshole and he doesn't understand why I have a problem with that)
    I am still not willing to spend the new year in California, because everybody here has these Jewish conspiracy theories and a place in which people are eager to blame the Jews is not a place in which I want to spend a period of social upheaval. This is still true, no matter what I believe, no matter what I do.
    Semillama: Bullets ARE lethal. That is the reality that I am dealing with and it's not negotiable. The whole E' thing is great for displaying erudition. This is not about displaying erudition. This is about survival.
    I am dealing with the historical likelihood that persons displaying a certain attitude are going to turn on me and kill me in the next two months, I am going to be a lot more likely to survive if I do not tolerate that perspective. That doesn't mean I want to take away anybody's freedom, but it certainly means I am going to react strongly to its prevalence.


By Fetidbeaver on Monday, November 22, 1999 - 01:11 pm:

    I'll be out when the dust settles.....


By Patrick on Monday, November 22, 1999 - 01:15 pm:

    lucy what the hell is happening where you live? Are you in Bosnia? You mention social upheval and conspiracy theories, this is not the northern california that I know, unless you live in stockton or fresno and are in a biker meth gang...........

    "kill me in the next two months"

    uhhhhhhh have you gone to the cops????


By Nate on Monday, November 22, 1999 - 01:23 pm:

    "It is a survival issue for me and I think that it is unrealistic for you not to expect that to color my perspective."

    empathy is not my strong suit, but talking to swine helped me to begin to realize this.

    take care.


By Lucy Phurre on Monday, November 22, 1999 - 01:49 pm:

    I think that Sorabji.com is unique in that it actually has a racially diverse group of people. I think that we need to realize that different people are going to have different perspectives based on their experiences.
    I don't think that this is a bad thing. I think that we can either believe that this means that our differences are irreconcilable or it means that we can learn things from each other that each of us would not have learned on our own. I prefer to believe that it is the latter.
    Thank you Nate for recognizing this and Swine for bringing all of us to our senses.


By Antigone on Monday, November 22, 1999 - 10:57 pm:

    Lucy, I think you're just as likely to shoot someone in "self defence" on new year's eve as you are to be threatened. When everybody's shooting shotguns into the air at midnight I'll be thinking of you...

    Swine definately hit it on the head: "you've thrown her into a fit because your words probably bring back memories of events you'll probably never experience..." But I doubt she's anything close to schizo. One symptom of schizoid personality disorder is being indifferent to the praise or criticism of others, which Lucy is definately not... :-)

    But, Lucy, you still seem awfully paranoid about this particular subject. Please remember that we have a great effect over how we let reality shape us. Perception is a powerful drug. So make sure you keep your ammo and gun in seperate dresser drawers.

    Nate, sometimes you can be an insensitive fuck. Glad you've peeled back a scale of your armor, at least for a couple of posts.


By heather on Monday, November 22, 1999 - 11:58 pm:

    "One symptom of schizoid personality disorder is being indifferent to the praise or criticism of others"

    but that's what i've been working on.... it's a disorder?


By Antigone on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 01:58 am:

    Here's the whole page I got it from. Of course, the DSM is the best place to look for the "authoritative" definition.


By Antigone on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 02:07 am:


By heather on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 03:38 am:

    what i meant, if it wasn't clear, is that i'm trying to become indifferent to the praise or criticism of others


By Lather on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 03:51 am:

    >(And the reason we had the argument is that his
    >father is an anti-Semitic asshole and he doesn't
    >understand why I have a problem with that)

    The problem I have is that a)I love my Dad; b)Your basis for calling him that is that he is a conspiracy theory nut; and c)You make me so frustrated when you are closed-minded and unreasonable!!!!!

    Nate - you are lucky. The above quote is among the most tender references Lucy has made about my Pop, and she's never even met him or talked to him. I was just stupid enough to mention to her that he's a conspiracy theory nut, and that one of the theories is that "the jews run the country". Sound familiar?

    That's it. And she has yet to forgive him enough to refer to him as other than an "anti-Semitic asshole". (Hmm, though maybe that's just like a pet-name...) Anyway, consider yourself lucky - she still posts, politely, to you.

    As to me coming off as a dickhead: I'm so sorry! I can be a real asshole sometimes. Feel free to call me on it if you feel the need. You dickhead.


By Lather on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 07:07 am:

    In fact, Lucy, if you can forgive Nate, and interact politely with him, then you have to do the same for my Dad.

    Fair?


By cyst on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 09:59 am:

    please.

    if there is any way you can conduct your couple fights off the boards, I would really appreciate that. I know I have no right to ask, but it makes me uncomfortable. and it can get really ugly.


By Lather on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 10:22 am:

    Cyst, I don't think we're fighting, and it seemed appropriate since Nate and my Dad are in the shit for the same transgression.

    However; I gladly will.


By cyst on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 10:24 am:

    thank you. you are nice. hope you have a fun and safe new year's eve. I know "fun" is not an adjective.


By Nate on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 11:26 am:

    >As to me coming off as a dickhead:
    >I'm so sorry! I can be a real asshole
    >sometimes. Feel free to call me on it
    >if you feel the need. You dickhead.

    hey, you weren't being a dickhead to me.

    just voicing a concern because generally
    it is wise to stand by the woman you are
    with. "Hell hath no fury..." and all that.

    and i'm the resident asshole (and occassional
    insensitive fuck) around here.


By Lucy Phurre on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 12:07 pm:

    Antigone:
    "But, Lucy, you still seem awfully paranoid about
    this particular subject."
    A. It is not your place to judge. I'm sorry, but it just isn't. This is something that you can never experience and you are out of line telling me how to deal with it.

    B. And when something has happened during every social upheaval in European societies for the past 3000 years AND the warning signs are showing, that's not paranoia, that's empirical evidence.

    "Please remember that we have a great effect over how we let reality shape us. Perception is a powerful drug."
    To a certain extent. However, it will not stop a bullet.

    Cyst: back off of my man. He is raising a relevant point.

    Both Nate and Lather's father are promulgating theories that are likely to get me killed. I have a problem with that. This goes beyond a sense of duty... my survival instinct tells me that I need to try to convince them otherwhise while I still have time to run, and that I do not need to be in the same state as them during a period of social upheaval. This goes beyond insensitivity to my feelings. This is insensitivity to my right to exist.
    Lather's father gets something more of a benefit of the doubt, as I have only heard his theories secondhand.


By Patrick on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 12:08 pm:

    RIGHT!

    ummmm, why is Lucy so uptight about your pop's conspiracy theories, yet she has several of her own.....you pop can believe whatever the hell he wants free from her wrath... just something that stuck out, otherwise I agree with cyst and i too feel a little awkward...


By Patrick on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 12:18 pm:

    that "RIGHT" was directed to nate as the resident insensitive a-hole.

    Lucy, has anyone directly threatened you?

    Is there a verifiable group stacking arms against you?

    Is this something the local police are aware of?

    If Antigone can't judge than neither can you, and boy have you judged

    watch out cyst, she tends to come out swinging when you least expect it (or deserve it)


By Lucy Phurre on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 12:27 pm:

    Patrick:
    A. I am justified in judging people who are attacking me. They are choosing to engage me when they choose to threaten me.
    B. I haven't said sqat to Lather's dad. I have a problem with his beliefs.
    I have said something to Nate because he attacked me based on my race in an open forum. He should expect me to respond to that.
    C.Cyst was wrong. Lather and I are not fighting on the board. I thought I made that clear when I defended him.


By Patrick on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 12:53 pm:

    ?


By Patrick on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 12:55 pm:

    why are you avoiding my questions about WHO specifically is targeting and preparing an attack to you and your people....you keep mentioning this eminent threat and I want to know what and who it is.


By heather on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 01:38 pm:

    i don't think that's your business patrick


By Lucy Phurre on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 01:52 pm:

    Yes, there ARE organizations that exist to kill me, and people like me. That is the part that you don't seem to understand.
    What the fuck? Do you want links?
    I'll provide you with some on my lunch break if that's what you want. But I have difficulty believing that you are that oblivious to what is going on in the news.
    You have this "It can't happen here" attitude. You think that America is immune to this kind of shit, but hate crimes and discrimination happen every day. In this country. This is a reality that you have the luxury of ignoring, and, as a result, you have a tendency to forget it.
    I envy you your naivete.


By Patrick on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 01:53 pm:

    i don't understand heather, if she is being threatened...say by the local KKK or some other local hate group, I would think she would want to blow the whistle as loud as possible.....I don't see why that would be kept personal unless there is a pending investigation in which leaking any info could compromise the investigation..


By Antigone on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 01:56 pm:

    Me -
    "Please remember that we have a great effect over how we let reality shape us. Perception is a powerful drug."

    You -
    "To a certain extent. However, it will not stop a bullet."

    Sure it can stop a bullet. It can stop the bullet that might leave your gun if you're not careful.


By Patrick on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 02:05 pm:

    well no lucy, I don't need links but you speak as if you have recveived a direct threat, as if someone made a call to your house and said we are after you, like someone on the street walked up and threatened you..... sure the KKK, nazis and any other hate groups has always wanted you dead, whats new about that? I am not oblivious, I just don't think there is going to be an all out offensive like you speak of...... i don't think this country would allow an uprising from hate groups...do you really believe the federal gov't would allow that? Do you not feel protected by the law and the police as far as this subject goes... Do you really believe that a systematic race/religion war could start and be seen through? I don't have any luxury of ignoring anything.....It concerns me, But i also understand there will always be assholes who hate other, there will always be assholes who will go as far as to kill others who are not like themselves, but they are isolated individual, the majority of society is on your side Lucy, the majority of society will not tolerate an all out race/religion offensive that you keep saying is coming.......i think with the millenium, a handful of kooks have "dreams" "prophecies" and such to fulfill and I expect violence to come from it. As far as I am concerned, everyone is a target...I am equally cocnerened about anyone being victim to violence...as much as you want to typecast me as the uncaring, naive, ignorant, white, "vicitimized" whiny white boy you just dead wrong...........that would be a judgement on your part made on false pretense......


By Antigone on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 02:07 pm:

    Lucy -
    "This is something that you can never experience and you are out of line telling me how to deal with it."

    Do you know the future? Do you know my future? How can you say that I'll never experience what you have? It's statements like this that make you appear irrational.


By Nate on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 02:10 pm:

    patrick: i don't think she's being directly threatened. the fbi (i think) did publicly state that they expected a rise in "hate" violence at the turn.


By Lucy Phurre on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 02:59 pm:

    Nate: Yep, they did. I read that too.
    And Antigone and Patrick: I have got 3000 years of historical evidence telling me that I had better watch my back during a period of social upheaval.
    I have also got definite warning signs which match the historical pattern. Synagogues are being firebombed. People are shooting us in the streets.
    And I know that I am targeted for the same stuff by the same people and that there are more of them in this region than I've ever seen.
    And that the impending social circumstances are ones that have historically brought such people into power.
    WTF? What have you ever experienced that is comparable?
    We do not have the same experience and I don't think that you have any basis, any frame of reference, for understanding how to deal with this. As such, you have no business telling me how to handle it.
    Oh, and it seems obvious to me, but you are obviously missing it: I don't think being singled out is even relevant to groups that are known for not recognizing the individual.


By Patrick on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 03:24 pm:

    with that said, lucy, your right, i have no idea what it is like to be targeted because i am jewish, i do know what it feels like to be targeted and a victim of violence because i had red spiky hair and combat boots (appropriately) and a skateboard, I have been the victim of threats because I was white.....these may pale in comparison to your experience but you can't exclude me from sympathizing or understanding simply because i lack experience, that is defeatist on your part and will bring you no friends, i think your are fucking paranoid, i don't think anyone is safe anywhere, i don't think there is a major social upheaval going on (if there is clue me in), yes there is an increase in racial/religious violence due to the millenium, especially in jerusalem, blame the god damn bible and the various "prophecies" and "interpretations" for that, i think going out, buying a gun,and "training" for serious combat is a useless since the police would knock you out just as quickly as they would the other side simply because this is not martial law, you do not have the right to go and start shooting up anyone who "threatens" you...you have the right to defend yourself but the kind of danger that you are facing is one you can do little or nothing about.

    You could be the victim getting into your car or at the grocery store or ANYWHERE, and usually when you least expect it, are you going to live your life packing heat 24-7? when will you sleep? will you go outside?


By cyst on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 03:32 pm:

    I know that this is all weird. that all of sorabji is weird, that message boards in general are weird, that I have said lots of weird things that may seem really personal.

    and I'm ok with all that.

    I guess I should try to figure out what is wrong with me that I can accept everything else but get freaked out when people who know each other intimately start bringing up family issues here first instead of talking to each other privately.

    I don't know why I'm ok with pantiless limbo but no ok with the equivalent of listening to a couple argue about personal stuff. relevant or not. it's clear I'm the one who has to change, not you.

    (but YUCK.)


By hydrozoa on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 04:26 pm:

    i agree 100% with patrick.

    i also say that anyone can find some dumb reason to make himself into a martyr. people just looove to make excuses for their problems. yeah, the streets are filled with crazies. people aren't always nice to each other. life sucks. get a fucking helmet.


By semillama on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 04:45 pm:

    Hey Lucy, I hope that it's been made clear that the reason we argue with some of your points (ok, most of them) is that we care about you and we don't like to think about someone we know (even just throught the 'Net)being threatened. You may want to think about moving to the midwest, where the only time people stay indoors to avoid being shot is deer season.

    so, anyway, I hope things cool down for you.

    It does sound, though, that you should consider Lather's concern about over-reacting. When Nate talks about Israel (the state, not the Jewish people), it isn't threatening your survival. When some sick neo-nazi fuck wants to bash your head in with a pipe, that's threatening and we expect the all-out defense. And of course language won't stop a bullet, but like mah man Antigone said, it can keep it from being fired inthe first place.
    Be safe, sister.


By Lucy Phurre on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 05:41 pm:

    Look,Sem, you of all people ought to know better than to judge somebody for their reaction to something that is unique to their cultural experience.
    And the problem with neo-nazis is that NOTHING I can do will stop them from wanting to kill them.
    As for the midwest, I really don't think they'd like me there for any number of reasons. That's militia central.
    And I really resent having a bunch of white males tell me how to deal with being Jewish (and it's just the white males... maybe you guys are in some sort of conspiracy... there's a hell of a lot more evidence for a white male conspiracy anyway.)

    And Patrick: there is a difference between getting beat up for something you can change (like dressing funny, which I do on a regular basis and expect to get hassled, and don't bitch about it) and getting beat up for something you can't change. If the climate gets hostile, all you have to do is change clothes.
    And as for not being able to do anything: I can attempt to raise the consciousness of people I meet (I'm not as good at it as Swine, as I am not good at being tactful, but hopefully people are at least thinking about things) and I can leave areas where I feel that the climate is hostile, and I can keep and bear arms for self-defense.

    And Hydrozoa: I am not making excuses. I am dealing. You just don't like the way I'm dealing and you don't like acknowledging the existance of what I am dealing with. You see, a helmet's not going to cut it.
    I am planning to defend myself and that doesn't mean I'm going to, as Patrick said: "go and start shooting up anyone who "threatens" you..."
    I think Nate will agree with my right to keep and bear arms as a U.S. citizen.

    And Cyst: People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.


By Antigone on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 05:59 pm:

    It's coming, Lucy. The Apocalypse is coming. I have 2000 years of historical evidence that tells me that the end is drawing near. I have also got definite warning signs which match the prophetic pattern. I and my Christian bretheren are being oppressed daily. People are shooting us in the streets. (and churches, even!) And I know that I am targeted for the same stuff by the same people.

    Lucy, what have you ever experienced that is comparable? We do not have the same experience and I don't think that you have any basis, any frame of reference, for understanding how to deal with this.


By Patrick on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 06:05 pm:

    thanks for reiterating that sem,

    lucy i realize the difference of my experiences for I said they proably "paled in comparison".....BUT all I am saying is, WE are not your enemy, WE agree with fundemental argument here, WE don't deny there are people out there who have anger against you, HATE is everywhere, the fact that you only view/resent us as "white males" makes you no better than them because you seem to lack the ability to practice what you inherently preach, and that is a non biased, non judgemental, non discriminatory society.....no one is telling you how to be jewish, to be a woman, to be a green eyed lady or anything else only pointing out that your views of the state of things may be a little extreme, irrational and not wholly based on reality....


By Patrick on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 06:09 pm:

    i would say the midwest would have the smallest welcome mat. If anything the folks in places like montana, wyoming and idaho tend to have a "live and let live" mentality. I would suggest the safest places would major cities, such as NYC, LA, SF, Chicago...the mid west\t and especially the bible belt tend to be extremely conservative, diversity is often not welcome in smaller cities...however being jewish is alittle less obvious externally than say being black, latino, asian, or even homosexual in certain cases


By Lucy Phurre on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 06:16 pm:

    Patrick, if you were making some sort of objective point, say, some sort of evidence that says that the FBI is wrong about the likelihood of an increase in hate crimes, I would say that you were telling me that my views are not based in reality.
    However, you have offered no rebuttal to anything that I have said, and are merely offering me subjective advice on how worried is too worried about a situation of which you have no experience.
    I would also like to point out that the only people who are telling me that being a targeted minority is not really all that bad are the ones who have never experienced it.
    And Antigone: what experience are you talking about and where have I told you how to deal with it. (and if it's the Christian experience, it doesn't count, since I'm the scarlet woman of Babylon anyway.)


By Patrick on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 06:21 pm:

    reports happen all of the god damn time, we don't alter I lives everytime we hear a report, especially from the gov't you so despise, I m not doubting the report, i heard it myself and I fully belive it to be accurate, but I don't think you are in any more danger in Mountain View, than say in Poughkeepsie, NY,

    ........whatever this is getting dumb,

    bottom line, we don't call you jewess or anything like that, so enough with the "whiny-white-male" shit, bitterness is so unattractive.....thats what set most of this off to begin with.....


By Lucy Phurre on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 06:30 pm:

    What set this off was Nate making an Anti-Semitic comment.
    What followed was every white male on the board passing judgement on me for having a problem with that. (and Cyst flaming my boyfriend for reasons of her own)
    And if my reaction is so unusual for my circumstances, why are the only people passing judgement on me for it the ones who have never had occasion to feel anything like this?
    Does that indicate nothing to you?
    Did you even read my post?
    Who are you to tell me how upset to be about something you have never experienced and will almost certainly never have to experience?


By cyst on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 06:59 pm:

    god. I was so not flaming your boyfriend.

    but whatever. I don't want to wind up getting into this for just bringing up a tangential issue.

    I wonder if, if there is any out-of-the-ordinary violence on new year's eve, it's partly going to be because some people are going to be so paranoid and wound up about it that they may misconstrue normal drunken behavior and end up starting a nasty fight.

    anyway.

    thanks for the glass-and-stones advice. that was really clever.


By Patrick on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 07:01 pm:

    no one passed judgment on you lucy the way you did others, no one viewed you simply as a jewish female, yet you viewed us as white males, thats all you saw. You didn't see past that. It all started with a comment sarah made about social mobility and white males, and I believed you chimed in about it, you made mention of it in another thread, i got on your case about the whiny white male shit you love to spout and then you and nate went back and forth about the israel crap and on and so on.
    \
    my biggest bone of contention with you is the super ability you have to blame a whole freakin race and sex for your situation. Thats my problem, what you do as a jewish woman I could careless. I will stand up to the violence commited to you by hate group just as i would any one else who is deemd a target, whether or not your "threats" and "social upheavals" have any validity or not, fuck it, forget I asked, i will stay tuned to the news and monitor the impending white power revolution from the comfort and my living room....seriously though......

    i also have a problem with your inability to accept things in a rational manner, you systematically insult and call a racist the very people who are trying to explain that they are on your side...but to you that is "lip serivce"...I am not quite sure if I buy all of nate's arguments about how we white males are experiencing reverse discrimination, but regardless, i do not accept that anymore the idea that the system is keeping you down, The system is no longer your enemy, individuals are, sometimes they are in groups,sometimes not, but whatever, you energy seems to be misdirected, and talking all this shit about white males and especially the ones around here (whom I consider probably to be the upper echelon of the white male species as far character goes)...THESE are the things i have problems with........if i ever came across as telling you how to be as a woman or jewish, pardon me, for that was not my intention

    calling nate, me, antigone, a racist and a nazi is just fucked up, retroactive and just outright wrong......as far as I am concerned some of this shit you have spouted off against white males put you in the hood and robe as well.........


By Patrick on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 07:08 pm:

    i warned you cyst


By Lucy Phurre on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 07:30 pm:

    I stand by my flaming of Nate. Even Lather was shocked by his posts.
    However, Patrick NOWHERE did I say it was your fault.
    I said that it was not your place to judge how angry I got at Nate.
    And Cyst, Lather asked me to say something.


By Lucy Phurre on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 07:36 pm:

    Hmmm... allow me to rephrase my comment to Cyst. Lather did not feel comfortable responding, newbie that he is, and was talking about leaving the boards if people weren't comfortable having couples on here and I told him I would defend him, thus making it clear that:
    A. we were not fighting online (as a matter of fact, we try to avoid discussing politics face to face... it wasn't until this thread that I felt obligated to say something to him about something he would see online)
    B. I felt that the race issue that we are experiencing in our relationship is relevant to the discussion and that I valued his contribution.


By cyst on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 07:37 pm:

    well, next time say something true, because "please ... I know I have no right to ask ... it makes me uncomfortable ... thank you ... you are nice. hope you have a fun and safe new year's eve" is not a flame.

    anyway, I am going to stop complaining because I like you and lather, and this thread is taking too long to load.


By cyst on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 07:39 pm:

    oh yeah, that other thing I said was bitchier. never mind. I retract some of that, but not the part about my liking reading most of your posts.


By Lucy Phurre on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 08:31 pm:

    And I am still irritated with Patrick. Every single time I criticize him, or even disagree with him, he says "You're blaming me for all the world's problems because I'm a white male"
    Stop putting words in my mouth, damnit.

    And I'm not saying that I'm a helpless victim of the system. I'm saying, the system is fucked and it's not going to protect me, so I am protecting myself. There is a difference between sitting around whining about problems and recognizing what action you have to take about them.

    You're just quoting party line. You're not even reading my posts.


By Fetidbeaver on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 10:20 pm:

    Please go back and read this thread carefully, it is now nothing but an irrational pissing contest.
    DIE THREAD DIE!!!


    R.I.P.


By The Thread on Wednesday, November 24, 1999 - 12:33 am:

    You're oppressing me!


By Antigone on Wednesday, November 24, 1999 - 12:35 am:

    Well, Lucy's apparently more pissed off and more pissed on than anyone else in this thread, so she wins.


By Gee on Wednesday, November 24, 1999 - 01:50 am:

    You people can be so dismissive when someone says something you can't understand.

    I think everyone in this thread is paranoid. me included.


By Fetidbeaver on Wednesday, November 24, 1999 - 01:52 am:

    DIE THREAD DIE! I'm off to get a priest and holy water, so this thread can be put to rest.
    DIE
    DIE
    DIE
    DIE
    DIE
    DIE
    DIE
    DIE
    DIE
    DIE
    DIE
    DIE
    R.I.P.


By Agatha on Wednesday, November 24, 1999 - 02:01 am:

    why am i still looking? it's just like rubbernecking at a horrid accident.


By Margret on Wednesday, November 24, 1999 - 09:19 am:

    youaremysunshine
    myonlysunshine
    youmakemehappy
    whenskiesaregrey
    you'llneverknow,dear
    howmuchiloveyou
    pleasedon'ttakemysunshineaway


By Father Guido on Wednesday, November 24, 1999 - 09:57 am:

    Amen


By Jesus Christ on Wednesday, November 24, 1999 - 10:58 am:

    ME!


By Isolde on Wednesday, November 24, 1999 - 11:44 pm:

    I was gone for a while, and returned to lay the thread to rest, and add a comment:
    Lucy: I think you really do enjoy victimizing yourself. I doubt that the casual man, or woman, walking on the street could readily identify you as a Jew, especially since you indicate that you are non-practicing--that you don't go to the synagogue regularly. I appreciate your defense of the Jewish faith. However, I think that you are the pot calling the kettle black, as you scream at Nate and Patrick for anti-semitism, yet persist in covincing yourself that there is a white male conspircay. For one: I'm female. Another: I actually doubt I would be considered white, unless in skin colour, since my background is extremely rich. My realtives killed each other during the Nazi regime over religion, and I doubt not that they will again. I do not think it is reasonable of you to get defensive and attack Nate and Patrick, and all the others, for something that is also not their fault. Is it Nate's fault that his genes combined to make him male? Hmmmm? I don't think it is, just as it is not your parent's fault for having Jewish or Eastern European ancestry. Please refrain from commenting on something that they cannot help. As for Lather's dad, why don't you try talking to him before you judge him? He may turn out to be someone who can be made to understand, but because you insist on weakening yourself by being defensive at the slightest slur to your honor, he may never have a chance. I think that's a damn shame. Lather's father may be a good man. Speaking from a rural community in Northern California, my view may be slightly jilted, but it seems to me that the violence towards people of all races equals out. In the US, Jews, Gays, Pagans, Christians, whoever--are attacked--but people are attacked all over the world--Christians in India and Indonesia, so on and so forth. I'm sure that were you to look at the hate crimes of the world, you would find that we are all in this together, and that your behavior is not reasonable. Pagans and those of Wiccan faith have been persecuted since the dawn of time (well, not precisely the _dawn_ for any of these examples). So have the Jews. So have the gays. So have the Christians, so have the Muslims, the Buddhists, the blacks, the white, every goddamn race and religion has and is persecuted for whatever twisted reason. I'm sorry that things happen that way. I really am, and I wish people would look at what they do to themselves. However, the way to do it is not be pointing fingers. Look to yourself first. As for personal attacks, tell me when someone attempts to shoot you for being Jewish, and we can swap stories about what it is like to have someone prey on you for what you believe in. You can look at the bullet wound in my foot, and I can look at your's, and we can have one big bash-the-white-Christian-male party. ok?


By Isolde on Wednesday, November 24, 1999 - 11:47 pm:

    Thank you for reading my rant, if you did. If not, oh well. I'm going to go to sleep now, and see what dreams of bullets the night brings. BY the way: Do you know what it feels like to have a bullet shatter through the bones in your foot because you moved a little too slowly, and someone's aim was shaky--and do you know what it's like to think that only those shattered bones stood between you and your life? Do you know?


By semillama on Thursday, November 25, 1999 - 12:26 am:

    I would just like to raise a point here. Accepting Lucy's comments as her experience, I hope she's aware of some of the more miltant black nationalists who are as virulently anit-Semite as the guys who still dress up as ghosts because they're so dumb to thinkn that ghosts scare anyone more than their real faces would.

    Anyway, I'm sure she does. And the midwest is conservative, but it's a more mind your own business deal. At least upper midwest. Except Stevens Point, for some reason there are a lot of Nazis there. Not something that gets brought up on "That 70's Show" very much. Oh, and stay away from Howell, Michigan -Klan hotspot. And there's one Christian Identity nutball in Munising. As far as militias, the Michigan Militia has distanced itself from some of the more loonier folks - that whole midwest embarassament deal. They're not very pushy, but still a bit scary. Minneapolis/St. Paul would be the place to live, they have great Jewish delis there. We go to one everytime we visit my family there.

    Anyway, as the local minister, I hereby adminster last rites to this thread - let's hope no one's spiked the punch with zombie powder. The undead threads are trickier to deal with.


By Agatha on Thursday, November 25, 1999 - 12:43 pm:

    i still want to hear more about caspar. damn.


By Isolde on Thursday, November 25, 1999 - 01:30 pm:

    Umm...it's still raining. There's a frog in my shower. We think it's a different one than was there last year. He doesn't have a name yet. I just finished putting the turkey in the oven for the tradional holiday that approaches--we invited friends over, and suddenly I found myself doing all the work. Damn those lazy men. Oh well. Caspar in in Northern California--like Nate says: So. Cal is not really California--it's another planet. Speaking of which, where do you live, Nate?


By Agatha on Thursday, November 25, 1999 - 03:16 pm:

    thanks for the info. i visited humboldt county this summer. it was really nice.


By Nate on Friday, November 26, 1999 - 12:08 pm:

    I live in the Santa Cruz mountains. a little island of humboldt county in the bay area.


By Isolde on Friday, November 26, 1999 - 01:00 pm:

    Been there, albeit briefly. I think I like it better here.


By semillama on Saturday, November 27, 1999 - 01:45 pm:

    When I stayed at teh USFS station in Powell County Kentucky, while working on a dig there, We had little frogs in the facilities as well. It was pretty nice actually.


By Irritated Lucy on Monday, November 29, 1999 - 12:02 pm:

    Oh, fuckit, fuck you all. You're not going to read what I say.
    So I'm just going to say it anyway:
    Damnit, if it doesn't matter what I say and you're going to construe it anyway, fine, I will blame the white men.
    Semillama, Fetidbeaver, Patrick, Nate: As not doing so makes you feel no less aggrieved and, as such, I can only assume it is what you want, henceforth I will blame you guys personally for everything that goes wrong in my life.
    You bastards.


By J on Monday, November 29, 1999 - 12:16 pm:

    Lucy,do you want some of my valium or xanax,it helps,really.


By Patrick on Monday, November 29, 1999 - 12:18 pm:

    uhhhhh, Aaannnyywaaayyyyyy



    there is a little section of the LA River I discovered this weekend. it's called Frog Town, and no it's not a concentrated area of french people. but rather it is named after a rare species of frogs that used to be there. And now it's low income, latino families. I am not sure of the exact species.....but here is this river, usually looks nothing more than a trickle, (50%+ of the LA River is underground), cemented all the way to the ocean, (LA is basically a flood plain, the cement embankment was created by the Army Corp Eng in the 40s under the New Deal) yet there is this thriving wildlife this time of year before the first serious rain, i rode my bike down there, it was gorgeous, patches of greenery growing out of the middle of the river, which sits about 50ft wide right now, fish, cranes, ducks, and here i am the nihilist, amazed at the touch of wildlife in LA other than rampant skunks and ghetto kitties.....


By Lucy Phurre on Monday, November 29, 1999 - 12:43 pm:

    J: Fuck you. I am sick of the impossibility of discussing race on this board from anything but a white male perspective. I was under the impression that there was some real diversity on this board, but it looks like anything that actually challenges white privelege has about as much chance of being heard here as on NBC.
    But you're not going to hear that. Anyone who is not a white male and wants to see the system changed must be crazy, right?
    And as for the white males... I think I'll post what they'll see anyway.
    Patrick: I stubbed my toe last week and I'm blaming you. You bastard.
    Semillama: You are clearly at fault for my allergies.
    Nate: I'm having a bad hair day and I know you're behind it.


By MapleLeaf on Monday, November 29, 1999 - 12:51 pm:

    Who pissed in your cereal this morning? Probably a white man..because no other race would ever think of doing that

    I was brought up to be non-prejudiced but reading your posts makes me wonder why........

    I would love to discuss issues with you but it does not appear that it would have any merit... there would be no conclusion.


By J on Monday, November 29, 1999 - 12:54 pm:

    Sorry Lucy I,ve already been fucked,and it wasn,t pretty.Maybe it was those bastards fault.


By Patrick on Monday, November 29, 1999 - 01:05 pm:

    no what we refuse to do lucy is engage you in a conversation in which you take personal shots and make sweeping generalizations and assumptions about the others' way of life based on your textbooks answers. We hear all kinds of perspectives, the difference is, you call anyone a nazi or a whiny whiteboy who disagrees with you. you become irrational and inflammatory....so who the hell wants to have a discussion of race around here, and don't be a dick to J, she doesn't deserve that crap.......s


By Lucy Phurre on Monday, November 29, 1999 - 01:16 pm:

    Look, Patrick, nobody has made any generalizations about or laid any blame on white males. The problem is that you, Patrick, the individual, are continually accusing me of doing so, rather than responding to my points.
    Fuck all of you.
    I'm done.
    And J shouldn't have insulted me if she didn't want to get cussed at.


By MapleLeaf on Monday, November 29, 1999 - 01:22 pm:

    Thank you....now I feel included.

    What insult?.....don't you recognize humour when you see it.......guess not..........never mind.

    Just so you would know.


By J on Monday, November 29, 1999 - 01:23 pm:

    I,m sorry Lucy,I was just kidding,I didn,t mean to insult you,but since you are in a bad mood and I am too,I,m going to take some ex-lax.You want some?


By Patrick on Monday, November 29, 1999 - 01:31 pm:

    you are too nice J, the US should have you as ambassador to china


By Patrick on Monday, November 29, 1999 - 02:56 pm:

    "And J shouldn't have insulted me if she didn't want to get cussed at."

    this is exactly the bullshit I am talking about...

    what the FUCK!

    J said "Lucy,do you want some of my valium or xanax,it helps,really."

    and you call that an insult????

    you could not have proved my point better


    J has never gotten in the middle of things, she has stayed out offering little bits of peace every now an then, but here you come yielding your battle ax at her for nothing, THIS is why, I suspect, no one wants to converse with you about anything serious....


By Nate on Monday, November 29, 1999 - 03:21 pm:

    this is all bullshit.

    ok, here's the deal. yes, there is a conspiracy of white males. yes, we are running everything.

    if you want some power, come and take it from us. otherwise, you're obviously not worthy OR capable and deserve what you have. if you feel like a second class citizen and fail to do anything about, it's your own fault. we, the WMC (white male conspiracy,) have worked hard to arrive at our current state. we butchered, enslaved and otherwise used you all to meet our goals.

    but the fact remains: we met our goals. we are in control.

    so quickly, while you still have the right to bear arms! revolt! over throw us!

    we dare you.

    otherwise, fuck off and quit your bitching. you have it better than the second class citizens of 100 years ago.


By Patrick on Monday, November 29, 1999 - 03:28 pm:

    (doing the secret whiteboy hand jive with nate)


By Isolde on Monday, November 29, 1999 - 10:03 pm:

    Lucy, these people are absolutely right. Just because we do not agree with does not mean we think the system is fine the way it is. Get over it--not everyone is out to get you, personally. I can tell you that it's a stupid way to live. I was afraid to leave my house for a couple months after the shooting, and then I realized that it was just silly. The world was not out to get me, and I refused to let whoever hurt me win. It's stupid. It's just plain fucking stupid, and you know it. Why don't you meet us half-way, ok? Just give these people a break. Coming at us sword raised is not a good way to do things.


By heather on Monday, November 29, 1999 - 10:19 pm:

    i'm thinking... that telling someone that your perception of what they are thinking right now is a "stupid way to live"... is probably not a great way to get them to lower their sword.

    can't you just let it go?


By Gee on Monday, November 29, 1999 - 10:42 pm:

    You're a good girl, J.


    You're a good girl too, Lucy, most of the time. I think you're just really fired up right now. Why don't you just stop reading this thread if it makes you so mad?


By Antigone on Monday, November 29, 1999 - 11:15 pm:

    She can't. She enjoys it. Otherwise she wouldn't come back. It's not like anyone's strapping her fingers to the keyboard...

    Well, OK. Maybe some evil white male is doing it...

    Or the good fairy green hermaphrodite.

    Or the bitchin' Okra Queen.


By Isolde on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 12:02 am:

    Heather: touche. My point did come across rather sharply. What I was trying to convey was that I feel it is not reasonable to hide behind yourself, if that makes any sense. I think that actually Lucy and I would agree on many of the things that she brings up. However, I think that she pushes party line to aggresively, and I am trying convey the arguments of the other side. All I'm really asking Lucy to do is to see the other side a little. I apologize if I have offended: And I mean that.
    Truce?


By Margret on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 09:20 am:

    Lucy's dancing barefoot. She's heading for a spin.
    More fucking power to her.
    Nate, I stole your power from you long ago. You are still living with its ghost, lonely and dreaming of some mediocre bleached blond coast.
    Kisses.


By J on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 09:49 am:

    I,m not trying to get anyones tits tangled,I am up, already took a valium and in a hour I,m going to take a xanax and I don,t care what someone calls me,just call me.I,m not going to offer to share anymore though.It,s the best way I can help myself.


By Nate on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 11:13 am:

    damnit margret. give it back!

    i'll whine!!


By Patrick on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 12:07 pm:

    (doing the secret whiteboy handjive with antigone)


By Lucy Phurre on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 01:01 pm:

    My point was that anyone putting forth anything suggesting that white males get more priveleges from our society than other people and that that is not fair, is instantly labeled as a "white male basher" and a "whiny minority" and shouted down by the white males on this board.

    None of these whiny fucks have responded to the actual points I have raised. All that they have done is recite the same tired party line about how I'm blaming them unfairly (which I have never done. As a matter of fact, I have pointed that out on no less than three separate occasions to Patrick, and he whines on.) or bashing them because they're white males. (esp. Patrick, who doesn't seem to understand that it's not his race and gender that lead me to call him a whiny whiteboy, it's his endless whining)

    Or that I'm just "whining" about the system (which is bullshit, since I am active in trying to change it, while Nate snivels tiresomely about imaginary "reverse discrimination," of which he has failed to produce a single example)

    Furthermore, I totally stand by my decision to flame Nate. Lather (who defends his father's endless ranting about Zionist conspiracies), when he read Nate's post, remarked that it struck him as "neo-nazi shit", and he does not characterize his father that way. I have now met his father and I have a serious problem with his pushing of this bullshit, but even he doesn't spew the amount of virulent race hatred I heard from Nate.
    However, Nate is an oppressed white male and has all of your sympathy.

    As it is impossible to get any viewpoint on the race issue other than the "poor little whiteboy" attitude, I have come to the realization that this is a forum in which the range of opinions that can be expressed is only slightly less limited than that of national television, at least when it comes to genuinely controversial issues.

    That being said, fuck you all. I'm outa here.


By Patrick on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 01:29 pm:

    i don't whine Lucy, I haven't whined, i don't know what you are talking about. All you have done is made claims and generalizations thwt we have it better than you and when I offered examples as to how I may not be as "privaledged" as you claim I am, citing examples of my personal life and personal achievments, you mentioned I was paying lip service, out of touch with the working class, you called it all whining....You called any rhetorts to your of your sweeping genralizations about the life i lead a whine. WTF? How is that a whine, I don't complain, I don't make excuses as to why i am in the situation i am in, I have never called on anyone for help, nor do I blame anyone for the situation i am in, I blame no one but myself, so how and the hell do you see me as a whiner. I have asked you this repeatedly and you have never answered it. We attmepted to address your points early on Lucy, we have attmepted to have a normal roundtable dicsussion with you but your head is so full of steam that you fail to actual listen, you make personal shots and border line a raving lunatic, so to say we are incapable of hearing any other viewpoiint is alod of crap, we tried with you Lucy, but the fact that you can't seem to realize your methods for disussion are pompous and inflammatory further implies your stubborness to really deal with this thing in a civilized manner....so i don't expect you will get much sympathy




    holy moly, as i was typing that last sentence, we had a lil earthquake that stopped my heart,....i guess it was probably a 3.0 or so, but man did this bldg bounce for few seconds, i need a smoke......


By Father Guido on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 01:29 pm:

    Bye.







    *Geez...hope she didn't go away mad*


By Father Guido on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 01:30 pm:

    Bye.







    *Geez...hope she didn't go away mad*


By J on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 01:51 pm:


By J on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 01:59 pm:

    I,m sending this to Patrick,maybe he can figure out what I,m doing wrong here,and post it.


By Nate on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 02:13 pm:

    1. I'm not a victim. I am affluent, blessed and mad sexy. this is a result of, as you have stated, luck.

    2. I hate the term "reverse descrimination" I deal only with descrimination. If you can plainly say descrimination against whites (and/or males) does not exist, you're blind. It's legislated. It's called Affirmative Action. The only thing left is to argue whether or not this descrimination is right or wrong.

    3. When white males have been pushed to hard for the actions of their (supposed) ancestors (not all whites come from oppressors,) there will be backlash. And it will be worse than things are now.

    4. I acknowledge a problem exists. I do not think it will be solved through racist policy.

    5. My so called anti-semetic statement was mimicing your own line of logic. it stated two facts and an apparent conclusion, which, while not my own, follows your logic. the US does provide more support to Israel than any other nation. in fact, the money (per capita) given to Israel exceeds the money (per capita) spent on welfare programs in the US.

    6. You should really stop. You're making a fool out of yourself because you're too emotional on this issue.



By Lucy Phurre on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 03:37 pm:

    I will ignore Patrick, as he has obviously not read my post and is saying exactly the same thing he's said in every other post, completely independent of anything I say.

    Nate:
    Although you have failed to address my points, you are at least saying something new. In fact, you have reversed yourself on damned near everything you say.
    1. "I'm not a victim. {yada yada yada, boast, brag, & BTW, I don't find Nazis sexy}"
    Um, do any of the following sound familiar?

    "white americans are the only americans who are
    legally and regularly denied education and
    employment due to the color of their skin."

    "i have never perpetuated preferencial treatment
    based on race. i have, however, been a *victim* of it." (emphasis mine)

    Not to mention that you directly contradict yourself on point two.

    2. "I hate the term "reverse descrimination" I
    deal only with descrimination. If you can plainly
    say descrimination against whites (and/or males)
    does not exist, you're blind. It's legislated. It's called Affirmative Action. The only thing left is to argue whether or not this descrimination is right or wrong."

    Btw, Nate, I'm still waiting on those examples of how you've been "descriminated" (sic) against.
    Well, at least you stuck to your guns on this one (Oh, nevermind, you contradicted yourself this post... I stand corrected).

    3. "When white males have been pushed to hard for the actions of their (supposed) ancestors(not all whites come from oppressors,) there will be backlash. And it will be worse than things are now."

    I'm not even going to touch this one. I've heard it before and it speaks for itself.

    4."I acknowledge a problem exists. I do not think it will be solved through racist policy."

    Ahem.

    "(everyone has access to all the tools i used to get to where i am: i am a product of public schools. i come from a bad neighborhood. if i can do it, then it is possible, so the problem must not lie in opportunity, but rather in attitude. and that has nothing to do with the color of the skin.)"

    So, that's not a denial that the way people perceive you based on your race helped you?


    5. "My so called anti-semetic statement was mimicing your own line of logic. {yada yada yada, whine snivel}"
    A. You can't backtrack. I asked you if you were trying to make a reductio ad absurdum point and you continued with your racist attacks. You can't pursue a lengthy attack on a race of people and then, when you realize that everybody recognizes you for the hatemongering bigot that you are, go back and say "well, then I didn't mean it"
    Furthermore, you have proven yourself to be a racist by persisting in assuming that I am some sort of Zionist trying to silence objections to Israeli policy and US policy towards Israel, despite the fact that I came right out and told you, at least *twice*, that I am disgusted by Israeli policy and that I don't think that what the US is doing is good for Israel.
    You have yet to respond to my pointing this out.
    You stereotyped me. I called you on it. A week later, you backtrack. It doesn't work that way.

    B. If you're trying to say that it's the same thing, then no, it's not the same thing. The action that I am proposing is potentially slightly inconveniencing white males (and you have yet to produce a single example, although I have challenged you to do so repeatedly) for a short period of time. The action that you are endorsing (by quoting Nazi propaganda) is genocide.
    Furthermore, there is evidence that white males benefit from preferential treatment all the time. There is no evidence that the Jewish community benefits from US aid to Israel. As a matter of fact, all that US aid to Israel does for Jews in the US is give assholes like you excuses to attack us.

    BTW, I did not say that there was a white male conspiracy. I said that a white male conspiracy was a hell of a lot more likely than a Jewish conspiracy and that both ideas were absurd.

    "this is EXACTLY my point. you are officially part
    of the problem."
    I include this excerpt from one of your anti-Semitism posts just because it was rather chilling to read it.

    6. "You should really stop. You're making a fool out of yourself because you're too emotional on this issue."
    A. How was my last post emotional? I believe I used some profanity.
    You know, I was going to, but since you are trying to write me off as a hysterical woman, I thought I'd refute you. Furthermore, I stand by my right to be extremely emotional whenever any asshole quotes Nazi propaganda.


By Isolde on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 04:08 pm:

    Nate:
    I love you.


By mistaswine on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 04:15 pm:

    i hate you all.


By Lucy Phurre on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 04:19 pm:

    Isolde, do you have a point, or do you just want to fuck Nate?

    You seem to have returned to this thread not to make a point but solely to attack me.

    And I'm sorry you got shot in the foot, but you have offered no explanation for it or anything that would support its relevance.


By mistaswine on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 04:32 pm:

    let me amend that statement:

    if you all were passed out on a railroad bridge and a train was coming, lucy is the only one of you i would bother moving out of the way.



    having said that,

    i hate you all.


By Patrick on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 04:33 pm:

    invaluable blessings from the nihilist


By Nate on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 04:47 pm:

    1. "white americans are the only americans who are legally and regularly denied education and
    employment due to the color of their skin."

    I am not all white people. By this logic, nobody's been oppressed because there are millionares for every shade.

    2. "i have never perpetuated preferencial treatment based on race. i have, however, been a *victim* of it." (emphasis mine)

    to me there is a difference between being the victim of something and being a victim. what i meant in the quote above is that i have felt the effects of discrimination. no, i can't prove this. i don't think you can prove that anything has kept you away from any opportunity due to your race/religion/gender. i know that i put in a better application to UC Berkeley that a mexican female classmate. that was my feeling, that was her feeling, that was anyone we asked feeling. she got in, i didn't. victim of the law.

    i still made it though. so i don't think of myself as a victim.

    but whatever, you'll probably just accuse me of backtracking.

    3. Btw, Nate, I'm still waiting on those examples of how you've been "descriminated" (sic) against.

    I'm still waiting for you to explain how a racist policy can be right. It's not about me, it's about right and wrong. This is what you have failed to address: Affirmative action involves programs of RACE BASED PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT. this is RACIST. How is this right? You avoid this every time.

    It doesn't matter if i've been discriminated against or not. It matters that people are being discriminated against. If you say that it doesn't matter if people are being discriminated against because they are white, you are a racist. period. i don't think you can argue that specific statement.


    4. 4."I acknowledge a problem exists. I do not think it will be solved through racist policy."

    I think it's an economic problem. It has to do with educational opportunities in poor areas. The problem plagues white people as much as any other race (by strict numbers, even more.)

    you're going to be branded stupid if you're a white guy with a southern accent.

    you'll be branded stupid if you're blonde, for that matter. wtf is up with that? isn't that racist?

    5. persisting in assuming that I am some sort of Zionist trying to silence objections to Israeli policy and US policy towards

    i only persisted in defending myself against your "anti-semite" attacks. i am not an anti-semite.

    6. The action that you are endorsing (by quoting Nazi propaganda) is genocide.

    there you go. you've quoted plenty of zionist propaganda, therefore you must be a zionist. in fact, i bet you've tortured your share of palastinian children.

    in fact i know you have. i saw the tapes while at my summer house in hayden lake.



By Isolde on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 06:26 pm:

    Actually--I was agreeing with his points. No offense Nate--but no. However--Lucy, I'm sorry if it looked like I returned to the subject just to attack you, because that was not my intention. Having tried to be fair to both sides of the argument, I think that Nate seemed to answer the points you claimed he didn't, and while he may not have entirely listened to you, I think that he was not the only one spewing party line here. I just wanted you to recognize that. It seems that every time I reply I step on your toes, sometimes unknowingly. I must come across as a real bigot here. Oh well. Listen: I agree with many of your points--I think there is some unfair prejudice towards white males, but I think that this prejudice appears everywhere, for different kinds of people. It's not an equal world. I'm sorry that the world is this way, and I try my best to fix it. I admire you for trying to fix it--I just wish you were a little more openminded. I don't think slinging numbers at each other is going to help. Neither will calling each other names help. I offered truce. You did not accept. Tough cookie, I guess. I offered to meet you halfway here--it's not reasonable for me, or anyone else, to speak self-righteously from any position, but it's also not reasonable for you. If you have experienced discrimination--so has the rest of the nation. It is a sad plague, and it can be difficult to prove that something occured as the result of discrimination. I think that you are extremely sensitive about this issue for some reason, and I really don't like to push people's buttons. With you, however, it appears unavoidable. I used to be like that. In junior high. Anyway. Clearly, argueing the point with you is stupid, because you will not listen to me, so I'm not going to waste our time.
    I was shot because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. No one can prove any more than that.
    By the way: if you look at things in a longer scheme, I would lie to point out the Egyptians had white slaves, not all of whom were Jewish. So, actually, white males have not always been dominant. (drumroll please--an unusual sight in this board: citations!!!
    Redford. Egypt, Caanan, and Israel in Ancient Times. Pages 209 and 221.
    Helck. Beziehungen. Pages 342-343.
    Menu. La regime juridique des terres et du personnel attache a la terre dans le papyrus Wilbur. Pages 92-3.
    Gardiner. Miscellanies. 108:15-109:1.
    Rainey. Israel Oriental Studies. Page 27.


By Eric on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 06:41 pm:

    Nate's certainly right that Lucy's got some racial and gender hate issues to deal with:

    "(esp. Patrick, who doesn't seem to understand that it's not his race and gender that lead me to call him a whiny whiteboy, it's his endless whining)"

    So if someone were to call you "an argumentative Jewgirl", you wouldn't take it as a (bigoted) commentary on your religion or gender, just on your argumentativeness? Cut me a fucking break, and get the log out of your own eye before resuming ranting.


By Patrick on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 07:13 pm:

    lets get to the root here, if we can


    Your target? (presumably racist, sexist and overall bigoted people)


    Your methods? (public protest of said peoples and groups, positive community involvement, education)



    The results? (?)



    Well I believe at this point, almost all of the policies are established to protect everyone from discrimination (never mind affirmative action, thats another thread). What you are up against is the mindset of the individual. This will prove the most difficult challenge of all. I think only education is the hopeful way out. Otherwise you will never change the mind of the individual on this type of subject, i just don't think it's possible to achieve. i think it's much easier to fight a concrete gov't policy, such as has been done in the past than to take on the mindset of a large group of people. The more you protest, they more they will protest, each side thinks they are right. I think only education and time will solve this problem and you can't teach an old dog new tricks.


By Lucy Phurre on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 08:50 pm:

    Isolde, you did piss me off, and you did not make a good impression on me by not joining in until it was clear that the whiteboys were winning. This gives me the impression that you have a tendency to follow the majority or keep silent.
    And your point about white males not always being on top is ridiculously irrelevant.
    I never said that they had always held power. As a matter of fact, white males have been oppressed many times in history (albeit usually by other white males, but we won't talk about the trend that that indicates, as that would be white male bashing)

    Eric,"whiny whiteboy" is Patrick's phrase, not mine and no, it is not the same thing. Criticizing the group in power is not the same as attacking minorities.

    Nate:
    "to me there is a difference between being the
    victim of something and being a victim."
    And you bash Clinton?

    " It doesn't matter if i've been discriminated
    against or not."
    So, you are recanting your statement about being a victim of Affirmative action?

    "It matters that people are being
    discriminated against. If you say that it doesn't matter if people are being discriminated against because they are white, you are a racist. period."
    i don't think you can argue that specific statement.

    Well, Jewish isn't an Affirmative Action category and being "discriminated against" has never bothered me.
    As for my defense of Affirmative Action, scroll up your damned self.

    "'5. persisting in assuming that I am some sort of
    Zionist trying to silence objections to Israeli
    policy and US policy towards '

    "i only persisted in defending myself against your
    "anti-semite" attacks. i am not an anti-semite. "

    Yes, you defended yourself... by accusing me of trying to silence your objections to Israeli policy, a policy which I detest.
    I corrected you.
    You did it again.
    I pointed out that it showed you to be a bigot.
    You vanished.

    Oh, yeah, you also continued to insist that the Jews get "the lion's share" of benefits.

    So yes, you are acting a hell of a lot like an anti-Semite.

    As for "zionist propaganda" the only ideas that I have put forth are:

    A. I am Jewish.
    Now, in your book, this probably counts automatically. That certainly seems to be the basis for your judgements.

    B. The Jews have consistently been massacred by Europeans, particularly during periods of social upheaval.
    So, in order not to be a Zionist, I have to be into Holocaust denial?

    C. I think Israel should exist. This is a real Zionist statement. I think the Jews deserve a homeland. I also think the Kurds deserve a homeland.

    D. I think that the Zionists are wrong. I have said this repeatedly and you persist in calling me a Zionist.

    So, you tell me how this is Zionist.

    Look, I don't have time for more, so I'll get back to you later.

    I am dismissing Patrick's "political action is futile" line out of hand.


By cyst on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 09:37 pm:

    (from Basics for Beginners: A Guide to Model Railroading)

    "Life-Like makes many styles of HO people . . . here are some ideas from tipsters:

    "Many modelers include accident scenes to add interest. Don't forget the 'rubberneckers' at your car or train wreck."


By Rubberneck on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 10:41 pm:

    You guys need to restart this "discussion" on a fresh field. Caspar II.


By Gee on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 03:31 am:

    Please no.


By Lather on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 07:28 am:

    Patrick: you are so fucking smug. Must you incessantly use the pronoun "we" to refer to yourself? Or do you really see yourself as the mouthpiece for everyone but Lucy on this board? Oh yes, and your posts are getting very very boring.

    Nate: You acknowlege a problem exists, but seem to think the best thing to do about it is nothing.
    1) Clearly, minority-discrimination goes on.
    2) Affirmative action is one attempt at a solution. It is an effort to balance ongoing discrimination against minorities with legislated discrimination against the majority.
    You obviously disapprove of this policy, however I've heard not word one out of you regarding any alternative solution to this problem. Think about it.

    Nate: "the jews run the country" - this is where you really put your foot in it, isn't it. All other bullshit aside, I think it's clear to all that this is where you stepped hard on Lucy's (and I'm sure others) toes.
    And I think you owe it to Sorabjiites everywhere to come clean on this one.

    Lucy: I don't (and you know it) defend ANY of my fathers rants, let alone endless ones about Zionist conspiracies. Why would I? I hate it when he rants, just as I hate it when you rant. Please don't cast me in that light here.

    Cyst: deal with it.


By Rabbi Guido on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 09:17 am:

    HEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! brothers and sisters..

    Let's try and get along without the personal character attacks.


By Nate on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 11:44 am:

    this is the statement i made:

    "But really, Lucy, we all know the jews run the country. why else would we be dumping 30 billion a year into Israel? supporting the jewish oppression of muslim palistine?"

    the whole point of the paragraph is that the two factual sentences at the end do not necessarily lead to the conclusion in the first sentence. you're supposed to say "But the jews don't run the country." to which i would respond "NO SHIT, HUH? I GUESS YOUR FUCKING LOGIC IS FLAWED THEN."



    for this you have libeled me repeatedly by calling me an anti-semite. i've never called you a zionist, or had any opinion about your opinions regarding US policy on Israel. THIS TOPIC DOESN'T EVEN APPLY TO THIS CONVERSATION.

    your instant cry of "anti-semite" is very much aligned with how the zionists operate. for all you spew about me regurgitating nazi propaganda (which I am not, though your accusations are again aligned with zionist attitude,) you seem to bark a lot of zionist bullshit.

    furthermore you often attempt to discredit my arguements by talking about whiteboys, etc. this is plainly racist. how can your views be taken seriously when your agenda is so questionable?



    Lather:
    "You obviously disapprove of this policy, however I've heard not word one out of you regarding any alternative solution to this problem. Think about it."

    this is silly. if i were opposing whacking children in the head with an iron rod as a policy to end truantism, would my arguement be any less valid if i didn't have an alternate solution for truantism?

    "Nate: "the jews run the country" - this is where you really..."

    it is plainly obvious to anyone with half a brain that i never claimed jews run the country.

    But really, Lather, it's obvious that water runs up hill. why else would there be so many mountain lakes?


By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 12:57 pm:

    "But really, Lucy, we all know the jews run the
    country. why else would we be dumping 30 billion a year into Israel? supporting the jewish oppression of muslim palistine(sic)?"

    Somebody else typed this in using your alias, then?

    Nate, Lather isn't a Zionist, and he thinks you're an anti-Semite too. So is he using Zionist tactics too? Is he in on the conspiracy?

    And you still haven't explained why accusing me of trying to silence your objections to a policy that I detest, because you expect me to support it based on my race, is not racist.


By Patrick on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 01:01 pm:

    lather do you think i give a rats ass. there is a reason the same 5 people post this thread, b/c we're stubborn idiots.


    Lucy sez..."I never said that they had always held power"
    LIAR!

    "whiny whiteboy" is Patrick's phrase, not mine"
    LIAR!



    Lucy is yelling at the wall proving nothing quoting quotes from threads and shit i can't even keep track anymore, she pulled her pants down and showed her ass big and bright, its a fact!

    nate, why are you bothering anymore? I think most people know you are not a racist, why are you trying to prove to the most bullheaded, hot headed person around here....give up, take it easy take a BH and fahget bout it....

    lather, you came off sympathetic in the beginning, and god knows you got some of my sympthaty dealing with these rants face to face.... I like you, don't sour me now, for as far as I am concerend none of this has had anything to do with you and i would like to keep it that way.......


    othwerwise I am laughing, I am laughing my ass off,


By Nate on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 01:09 pm:

    lucy:

    [my post]
    this is the statement i made:

    "But really, Lucy, we all know the jews run the country. why else would we be dumping 30 billion a year into Israel? supporting the jewish oppression of muslim palistine?"

    the whole point of the paragraph is that the two factual sentences at the end do not necessarily lead to the conclusion in the first sentence. you're supposed to say "But the jews don't run the country." to which i would respond "NO SHIT, HUH? I GUESS YOUR FUCKING LOGIC IS FLAWED THEN."

    [your response]
    "But really, Lucy, we all know the jews run the
    country. why else would we be dumping 30 billion a year into Israel? supporting the jewish oppression of muslim palistine(sic)?"

    Somebody else typed this in using your alias, then?

    [my post]

    this is the statement i made:

    "But really, Lucy, we all know the jews run the country. why else would we be dumping 30 billion a year into Israel? supporting the jewish oppression of muslim palistine?"

    [your response]

    Somebody else typed this in using your alias, then?

    [MY POST]

    this is the statement i made:

    [YOUR RESPONSE]

    Somebody else typed this in


    "Lather isn't a Zionist, and he thinks you're an anti-Semite too. So is he using Zionist tactics too? Is he in on the conspiracy? "

    i haven't called anyone a zionist. your reading comprehension isn't that great, you know that?




By J on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 01:20 pm:

    I,m just trying to be nice,I,m totaly confused now,I,m going to take a valium,does ANYONE want some?It seems to work for me.Really,you keep this up and God might show up.


By Nate on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 01:27 pm:

    i'd love some valium, J.


By Patrick on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 01:30 pm:

    YO! overhere,



    i am about to call into my doc and get a refill of the V from last year when i flew during the holidays......it should be snap, if all goes well, another 50 valium for patrick.....nate i'll send you some if you send me a cd of some of yer shit......

    (doing the secret whiteboy handjive with nate)


By mistaswine on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 01:35 pm:

    let me amend my previous statement:

    if you were all passed out on railroad tracks, i'd tie every last one of you bastards down to the iron and run over your chucklehead asses with 900 tons of locomotion my damn self.

    no exceptions.


By Patrick on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 01:37 pm:

    ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, he's so sweet


By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 02:09 pm:

    Patrick, you are clearly showing off your personal grudge. Why don't you storm off the board again, huh?
    Nate, you said it. When I asked you the first time whether or not it was a reductio ad absurdum argument, you stereotyped me as a "user of Zionist tactics" (i.e. calling someone an anti-Semite for something innocent like saying "the Jews are running the country") and a "quoter of Zionist propaganda" (like, umm.... well, I asked you and you never really answered that one)
    This is somehow different from calling me a Zionist. and accused me of trying to silence objections to Israeli policy even though I have repeatedly voiced my objections to it. This is also somehow different from calling me a Zionist, or stereotyping me as a Zionist.
    And you haven't answered my question. Is Lather using Zionist tactics too?
    You continued to argue your assumptions.
    When you realized that even Lather was offended by your blatant racism, you backtracked and said (after being asked and continuing with your racist attacks) well, then, it was a reductio ad absurdum argument. You can't retroactively rewrite your stated intent in posting something.
    It doesn't work that way.


By Nate on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 02:13 pm:

    balh blah NERP froo fruf blah blah.


By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 02:23 pm:

    Would you like me to use smaller words?


By Nate on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 02:31 pm:

    while it wouldn't change the content any, it could be a refreshing difference.


By Patrick on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 02:34 pm:

    how about this continue in pig latin, that would be fun.


By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 02:45 pm:

    Nate, to put it simply.

    You said a bad thing.
    I asked you if you believed it.
    You ignored me and said more bad things.
    Lather said he thought you said a bad thing.
    You said that you hadn't really meant it.

    That is bullshit.

    Is that clear enough?


By Nate on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 02:56 pm:

    Lucy,

    I understand what you said. you've said it over and over again.

    this is my first response after you stated that the reason you called me an anti-semite was not because you disagreed with the facts:

    -----
    "But really, Lucy, we all know the jews run the country. why else would we be dumping 30 billion a year into Israel? supporting the jewish oppression of muslim palistine? "

    you have to read that as a paragraph. i was just trying to point out that jews get the lions share of benefit from the US government, and, by your logic (those with the power get the most benefits,) they must be running the show.
    -----

    you see? this has been my stance on my statement from the beginning. you've been going on an on in circles, when all you had to do is scroll up and read.

    talk about bullshit.

    Is that clear enough?




By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 03:22 pm:

    "The jews get the lion's share of benefits from the government"

    Talk about bullshit.


By Nate on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 04:29 pm:

    no, that is fact. there is no other country that gets nearly as much aid as we give Israel.

    eat ass.


By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 05:02 pm:

    You know, call me a white male basher, but I always considered property ownership and a near monopoly on high government office to be of greater benefit than an increased likelihood of getting asylum from a country that is useful to the State Department.
    But I've already said that.
    I maintain that I asked you if you were attempting a reductio ad absurdum argument, and refuted the claim implied by the possible reductio ad absurdum argument, but you didn't touch it and you continued to insist that "the jews get the lion's share of benefits" and accused me of trying to silence you. Where I come from, this is not the way to explain that you are making a reductio ad absurdum argument. It is the way to continue your serious argument.

    You have reversed yourself on this and nearly every other point and it damages your credibility.
    Maybe they should have called you "Waffleboy"


By Patrick on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 05:05 pm:

    waffleboy is dead


By Nate on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 05:24 pm:

    i have not reversed my arguement. as many times as you want to say that, you are wrong.

    maybe we should call you oatmeal boy.
    ----


    i was just trying to point out that jews get the lions share of benefit from the US government, and, by your logic (those with the power get the most benefits,) they must be running the show.

    by your logic (those with the power get the most benefits,) they must be running the show.

    by your logic (those with the power get the most benefits,) they must be running the show.

    by your logic (those with the power get the most benefits,) they must be running the show.

    by your logic (those with the power get the most benefits,) they must be running the show.

    by your logic (those with the power get the most benefits,) they must be running the show.

    by your logic (those with the power get the most benefits,) they must be running the show.

    by your logic (those with the power get the most benefits,) they must be running the show.

    by your logic (those with the power get the most benefits,) they must be running the show.





By Sarah on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 05:33 pm:


    i'd like to interrupt your regularly scheduled chucklhead (tm) program to discuss some things that i haven't had time to address in this thread. (you'll be happy to know right up front that the issues i'd like to address have nothing to do with anit-semitism or zionistic propoganda). these are things i've been contemplating for a few days, mulling over, and i have some questions and curiosities.

    thus begin the proceedings:

    __________________________

    nate, this is mostly in response to your statements, so i will start with the first one that caught me:

    "I'm still waiting for you to explain how a racist policy can be right. It's not about me, it's about right and wrong. This is what you have failed to address: Affirmative action involves programs of RACE BASED PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT. this is RACIST. How is this right?"

    there is no denying that Affirmative Action involves race based preferential treatment. earlier you mentioned or used an example that during your application process to UC Berkeley, you submitted a better application than a Mexican woman, but you were not admitted to UC Berkeley and she was.

    yet, this is not at all how affirmative action works. it works like this:

    if the mexican woman had submitted an *equally good* application to UC Berkeley as you did, she would get chosen for admission to the university before you would, because she is a minority. if she submitted a less qualified application, you would still get chosen before her.

    Affirmative Action policy is that, given two applicants who are EQUALLY qualified for any position, the one who should be chosen is the minority status applicant. but if a white male is more qualified than all the other applicants, then he gets hired/chosen. Affirmative Action employers and institutions have a review board that oversees that this procedure is being followed.

    I'm not sure what the procedure is when there are two minorities who are equally qualified. i will look that up this weekend, because i'm curious what the policy is for that.

    this policy may be unfair to white males, because it gives a small advantage to minorities. and i can even understand why white males would be angry about this policy. very few people who enjoy a privilege would be in favor giving up that privilege for the sake of fairness and justice.

    you say, "It's not about me, it's about right and wrong." but really, it's *not* an issue of right and wrong. if you want to discuss right and wrong, we'll have to start off way back in history and take a look at how our current socioeconomic and cultural stratum have developed over time, we'll need to assess the "right and wrong" of this development, and assess and compare it to the "right and wrong" and the justice and injustice of what we have today. but really, nate, it's not a matter of right and wrong. it's about fair and unfair. it's about justice and equality.

    yes, it sucks that if you apply for a government job or to a state/federal funded university or institution, that you now have *real* competition for resources with those who have a minority status. and i can see how you can think that it's not your fault that things are the way they are today, that you shouldn't have to pay the price for injustices of the past. these are all legitimate concerns.

    all i can say is that Affirmative Action is, by admission of policy makers, not a perfect solution. but it's a start in the right direction. i won't deny that personally i think it's a wussy policy and that i think more progressive policies should be instated to deal with educational and economic inequality in our country.

    also, i'd like to point out that, in spite of you not being able to attend UC Berkeley, that you said yourself are "not a victim" and that you are "affluent, blessed and mad sexy." You then attribute this to luck. maybe the mad sexy part is luck. but the affluent part isn't luck. it's smarts and, more importantly, privilege. as a white male you have more and better opportunities to be affluent and blessed than the mexican woman who beat you out of your spot at UC Berkeley. you went to Cal Poly instead, and now you have a good job and a home in the mountains of Santa Cruz. despite affirmative action and its "racist" policies, you seem to be doing just fine. maybe you had to work just a wee bit harder to get to where you are because you didn't get to go to UC Berkeley. but i can nearly guarantee you that your mexican female competition still must face a lifetime of harder struggle to achieve her goals that you can even begin to comprehend. you may have been born into a low or lower-middle class family, but you still had advantages and privileges that women and ethnic minorities simply do not have and who have to work a hundred times harder than you to get.

    the world is not fair. but affirmative action at *the very least* gives minorities a teeny weeny little boost that can help them overcome obstacles that they couldn't overcome before. you can't say that if all minorities worked hard enough that they should be able to overcome the system to gain educational and economic opportunities. because right from the gate they are fighting invisible (and sometimes not so invisible) forces that are working to keep them uneducated and underpaid; whereas most white males know little of these types of barriers. now, please don't get me wrong. i'm not saying that all white males *are* the barrier or the problem, only that they don't have to deal with the same struggles that minorities do, and therefore have privelege that continues to keep them in privelege and keep other people underpriveleged.

    capiche?



    next point:


    "It doesn't matter if i've been discriminated against or not. It matters that people are being discriminated against. If you say that it doesn't matter if people are being discriminated against because they are white, you are a racist. period."

    i don't think it's fair to call someone "racist" because she/he favors affirmative action.



    and the final point:


    "I think it's an economic problem. It has to do with educational opportunities in poor areas. The problem plagues white people as much as any other race (by strict numbers, even more.)"

    i agree with this. which is why i'm a socialist. i believe in the redistribution of wealth. and this has nothing to do with race or "white guys". it has to do again with privilege. if wealthy people had more of a sense of social responsibility with what they do with their money, we wouldn't be seeing this economic gap in our country growing and growing and growing. the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. nobody can deny this. why should it be this way if it doesn't have to be?

    how much money do people really need in this world? how valuable are diamonds and gucci shoes and lobster dinners when people go hungry and live in boxes on the streets and people can't afford to go to the doctor when they are sick?

    i don't believe in every person for themselves. i believe in social responsibility, of helping other people who are down. maybe they are down because of bad luck, or because of The Man, or because they are minorities and lack privilege. maybe they are down simply because they fucked up and made some really bad decisions and acted irresponsibly at some point. maybe they are just lazy. i can see how it would be hard to justify helping people who don't want to help themselves. but i think that is *very rarely* the case. people do NOT want to live in squalor or that they don't care enough to work to feed their families or themselves because they're simply too lazy to do so. most people want to succeed and be prosperous (and i'm not just talking about money in this case), if they have a chance to do so, if they perceive that they do indeed have the ability to do so.

    the way things are now, poor people, regardless of race, don't perceive that they have a chance to make it in this world. because they really don't. that's not an illusion either, that's reality. the socioeconomic structure in which we currently operate blatantly works *against* people who do not have the resources right out of the starting gate to make it in this world. and most importanly, we are a wealthy enough people that we can afford to take care of everyone. we are the richest country in the world. we consume more than any other country in the world. we have more than any human in history could begin to imagine. it is incomprehensible why there is so much injustice in our country and such stratified inequality. it's mindblowing.

    most of all, i believe that it is people like you, nate, who should share this vision. in my opinion, your libertarianism is such a terrible waste. someone like you, someone who has the intelligence, creativity, affluence, and yes, privilege, can do so much for the cause of justice and equality in this world. minorities have to fight so hard for every step they make toward social and economic equality. but it's people like you who have the ability to make it easier, because you have more readily available access to the means of power that run this country. and instead of looking at it from this perspective, instead of wanting to help the cause, you, and many other white males like you, choose to take the "backlash" path. to fight against things like affirmative action and other social measures which work toward equality, instead of trying to come up with something even better.

    i find that incredibly sad.





By Nate on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 06:10 pm:

    Well put, Sarah.

    I think we agree philosophically on many points, but see the world fundementally different.

    I have unworked out internal issues about the difference between right/wrong and fair/unfair.

    I am primarily interested in freedom. I think that is the keystone of what this country was built on. Without freedom, we aren't much.

    fair/unfair: if we forbade births to people under a certain income level we could start to solve the poverty problem. Would this be right? I don't think so. Would it be fair? I don't know?

    It certainly isn't fair to be born into poverty.

    I just don't think you can be fair to everyone, because in order to be fair to some you have to be unfair to others.

    where do you draw lines?






By Patrick on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 06:16 pm:

    don't they have quotas in affirmative action? so even if minority applicant #1 is underqualified he/she will still get a job or enrolled regardless due to a quota they have to meet.


By heather on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 06:34 pm:

    "Affirmative Action policy is that, given two applicants who are EQUALLY qualified for any position, the one who should be chosen is the minority status applicant. but if a white male is more qualified than all the other applicants, then he gets hired/chosen."

    that may be 'policy' (though i question that) but that's not really how it works- but maybe that's just my opinion

    also- minorities aren't necessarily who you might think

    to be a woman is obviously not being part of a minority

    in most areas the only minorities considered to be 'under-represented' are:
    african-american
    native american
    latino

    from the looks of the schools i've been to- affirmative action is still necessary


By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 07:06 pm:

    "i was just trying to point out that jews get the
    lions share of benefit from the US government,"

    This, by itself, is an anti-Semitic statement and also blatantly bullshit. I haven't seen one cent of that foreign aid money. When I refuted it, you accused me of trying to silence you.

    Yes, I did notice the "by your logic" bit. It indicated that what you were saying MIGHT POSSIBLY be a reductio ad absurdum argument (do you even know what reductio ad absurdum means?)
    THAT'S WHY I ASKED YOU!!

    And you continued to talk about how the Jews get everything and accuse me of trying to silence you.
    This indicated to me that it was an odd turn of phrase and not a reductio ad absurdum argument.

    "Did not!" is not a rebuttal.
    Nether is "Eat ass"


By Nate on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 07:15 pm:

    if you lived in Israel, you'd see the money. Currently you're either 1) not jewish or 2) diaspora.

    but that is beside the point. perhaps i should have said "Israel" in the sentence. the fact of the matter is that per capita, the jews in israel receive more aid from the US government than, per capita, is distributed (through welfare programs) to the citizens of the US.

    you can't call me an anti-semite for statements of fact. actually, you can. you did. but you're wrong.

    >do you even know what reductio ad absurdum >means?

    no. only by context.


By Sarah on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 07:15 pm:


    nate, i agree that without freedom we aren't much.
    i don't think limiting the birth of poor people is anywhere close to a good solution to poverty and inequality. it's not fair, nor just, nor in the spirit of freedom.

    do you think it is unfair to have higher taxes for people who are wealthy so that the money can be redistrubited for better education, housing, etc. for poor people? why or why not?

    in what ways do you see higher taxes for the wealthy to be limiting the freedoms of the wealthy?




By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 07:42 pm:

    Ahem. I am a Jew. I haven't seen a damned cent of that foreign aid money.
    HOW, please tell me, HOW is aid to Israel of greater benefit to me than being a wealthy member of the most priveleged class on the entire planet is to you?

    Furthermore, the "lion's share" of benefits come in the form of tax breaks for the wealthy and for corporations, in subsidies, in $5million toilet seats, etc.

    Also, you have yet to tell me why you continued to accuse me of trying to silence objections to a policy I had already said that I detested.

    And you have ignored all of my other points, once you ran out of wriggling room.


By semillama on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 08:59 pm:

    Lcy - i was doing all of that to YOU!? Damn, I was aiming for Dick Morris! Sorry!

    Next time, my aim will be more precise.

    You know what would be really funny? If Lucy turned out to be Droopy having us all on again.

    Nah, never happen.

    This is getting really ludicrous. Bloody authoritarians.

    Oh shit, someone's gonna take that to mean I'm bashing white males! or was it Jews? wait a minute - i'm white, male and partially jewish - I must hate MY OWN DAMN SELF! Shit, swine, I guess I'll be tying myself to the tracks, except -what about the last arm? How WillI TIE IT DOWN? HOW CAN I RUN FROM MY OWN LEGS? WHY IS EVERYONE ELSE RUNNING FROM THEIR OWN LEGS? WHAT ARE THEY RUNNING FROM THEM WITH? Praise "bob"! Such a GLORIOUS CONUNDRUM!


    Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke!


    aNBODY HEAR OF sISYPHUS?


By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 09:14 pm:

    Semillama: Relativism does not apply to Nazis.
    Some things are absolute.
    Case in point, your sombunal post. So, would you say it was okay if they only tried to liquidate part of the Jewish population?
    What percentage would be acceptable?

    I have a zero-tolerance policy for racists.
    (the difference between anti-Semites and other racists being the difference between self-defense and the proper defense of another)
    And that includes racists who then try to co-opt the idea of colorblindness so that they can preserve their privelege

    Also, I've been meaning to as where you, an avowed relativist, get off telling me how to react to something you'll never experience.


By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 09:18 pm:

    BTW, in case I haven't mentioned it, the whole big happy whiteboy circlejerk can kiss my ass.

    You are a bunch of spoiled, stupid pseudoliberals without exception.

    Fuck you all.


By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 09:32 pm:

    Btw, before I give any of you little shits any more ammo (btw, I hate you all) I mean you guys specifically, not white males in general.


By Gee on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 12:13 am:

    Sarah, you're too good for this place. We're only going to drag you down with us.


By Moonit on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 01:56 am:

    *yawn*

    I can't believe I read all that. And I'm still confused.


By Lather on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 04:13 am:

    Reductio ad absurdum: an argument form which works backward from an absurd conclusion to show that a premise of the argument must be false.


By Nate on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 11:03 am:

    >Ahem. I am a Jew. I haven't seen a damned cent >of that foreign aid money.
    >HOW, please tell me, HOW is aid to Israel of >greater benefit to me than being a wealthy >member of the most priveleged class on the >entire planet is to you?

    Are we talking about individuals? Is Israel not a Jewish state? If you moved to Israel, you could become an instant Israeli, and you would see this money. If you murdered me, you could run to Israeli, and skip out on real punishment.

    I haven't seen a cent of domestic aid (welfare, medicare, etc

    And here you are talking about you, when I am pretty sure you do better finanically than anyone in my family, save me. They're all white folk. My great grandfather died in an iron foundry when my grandfather was 9. My grandfather was a carpenter. my father grew up in a shack in bolinas that didn't have inside plumbing or a fridge. the marin county kids he went to school with used to pick on him because he only had two or three shirts at any one time, and they only washed clothes once a week. he dropped out of school when he was 17 and had his mamma sign a release so he could go straight into the navy.

    i didn't have shit when i was a child. my bedroom was so small that when you put the bed in there you couldn't open the door all the way. my brother and i grew up on powdered milk and SOS. i got clothes from the church, goodwill, hand-me-downs from family. my grandfather bought us shoes for christmas, so we had a new pair every year. but you better believe i was picked on all through school for what i wore. how's that for privledge?

    But we aren't talking about individuals, are we. We're talking about racial responsibility.

    because if we were talking about individuals you'd have to deal with the poor white people of america, who as a group outnumber all the jews or all the blacks or all the latinos in the US.

    >I have a zero-tolerance policy for racists.

    You should be stringing yourself up in your closet, then.


By Patrick on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 12:11 pm:

    laughing at Lucy's absurdity, now she swinging that famous battle ax at sem, the most mellow cat on these boards, do you have any enemies sem? I doubt it.

    (laughing)

    hey sem, can i show you the secret whiteboy handjive?

    actually i was thinking of starting a support group for vicitims of her wrath........

    nate never mind what i said earlier, keep on keepin on, this getting funnier and funnier by the minute










    wait Lucy, I'll save you the trouble.....












    "DON'T TALK TO ME!"


By cyst on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 12:48 pm:

    last I heard, egypt and ukraine got more money per capita from the u.s. government than any other foreign countries in the world. I don't know where israel falls on that list.


By cyst on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 01:03 pm:

    wait, I'm totally wrong, I think. just a sec.


By Antigone on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 01:06 pm:


By cyst on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 01:13 pm:


By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 01:35 pm:

    Firstly, Nate, I believe I gave uninteded offense. When I called you "Waffleboy" I was calling attention to your vacillation (waffling-waffleboy, get it), not comparing you to Ratprick (die ratprick die)

    Secondly, Lather, thanks for posting that definition for me. I forgot.

    Thirdly:
    "Are we talking about individuals?"
    No. You don't think of me as an individual, do you?
    You think of me as a Jew.

    "Is Israel not a Jewish state? If you moved to Israel, you could become an instant Israeli, and you would see this money. If you murdered me, you could run to Israeli, and skip out on real punishment."
    Well, actually, probably not. You see, I'm probably not Jewish enough for the Israelis (who, I believe, require you to be Orthodox), just Jewish enough to be blamed for foreign aid to Israel.

    "I haven't seen a cent of domestic aid (welfare,medicare, etc"
    I bet you've seen a hell of a lot of corporate welfare money, though. The computer industry has always been heavily subsidized. Did you know that they did a study of Fortune magazine's top 100 companies and that every one of them had benefitted from corporate welfare and most of them wouldn't have survived without it.

    "And here you are talking about you, when I am pretty sure you do better finanically than anyone in my family, save me."
    Not all Jews are wealthy. I don't know how I'm going to make rent.

    {tales of familial poverty excised}
    {tales of personal hardship excised}
    I'll have to show you the peridontal damage that I have from malnutrition sometime.
    And yes, I was poor when I was a child. There were times I didn't have new toys for Christmas. Once in a while I would get new clothes, but I could probably count the items on one hand (we had our ups and downs. Once in a while, my parents got some money). I drank powdered milk and lived in a rowhouse. We had roaches, etc, etc, etc.

    "But we aren't talking about individuals, are we. We're talking about racial responsibility."
    And how do you interpret that. Let me guess: The Jews can be blamed for the US's mideast policy (even those of us who, like me, have marched on Washington to protest it, and even donated to nonviolent Palestinian resistance groups), but whites can't be inconvenienced (and you have yet to show an instance when you have even been inconvenienced) in order to correct the economic effects of milennia of genocide against every other race on the planet (and frequently each other.) Affirmative Action isn't about penalizing white males. It's about asking them to pitch in. Every white male I've ever met who complained about Affirmative Action costing him a job was either:
    A. Unable to produce any kind of genuine example.
    or
    B. An illiterate loser with no high school diploma and no teeth.

    "because if we were talking about individuals you'd have to deal with the poor white people of america, who as a group outnumber all the jews or all the blacks or all the latinos in the US."

    There are more poor white people in this country. That's because there are more white people. A much higher percentage of minorities is poor. (See? I read "How to Lie with Statistics" too)

    And how are poor white people individuals and poor minorities not?

    "You should be stringing yourself up in your closet, then."
    Am I a racist because I called you on your anti-Semitism (everyone knows that anyone who calls a white male a racist is just a racist who is victimizing him) or because I support Affirmative Action as an imperfect solution to a problem that needs to be solved?


By Nate on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 03:28 pm:

    >You think of me as a Jew.

    actually, i don't. for some reason i think of you as a slightly rounded, pale, twenty something with long dark hair who wears a lot of black. i have no idea where the image comes from. regardless, the visage has nothing to do with the ideas you have, so really it is nothing more than candy for my brain. trival and without substance.
    that's what i like about this media. if i think you're a jackass, it's not because you're ugly.

    i don't blame you for any us policies. i tend to judge people as individuals. i don't really care if you believe that or not. you cannot harm me with your opinions.

    i think you are a racist because you judge people based on their race. here is an example:

    "There are more poor white people in this country. That's because there are more white people. A much higher percentage of minorities is poor. (See? I read "How to Lie with Statistics" too) "

    you think it matters to a starving child if he's white or black or jewish or latino or anything? i don't.

    i've never read "how to lie with statistics". i don't believe in statistics.

    and i'm spent. this is a wholey unproductive exercise.




By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 04:15 pm:

    No, you don't get the last word by riding on the coattails of the "let's hound her half to death and then write her off because she got mad about it" mob.

    "i think you are a racist because you judge people
    based on their race. here is an example:
    "There are more poor white people in this country. That's because there are more white people. A much higher percentage of minorities is poor. (See? I read "How to Lie with Statistics" too) "

    Now, how did I "judge people based on race" here?
    What I was saying was:
    A. Your statistic is meaningless.
    B. Racial injustice in this country does, in fact, lead to economic inequality.

    " you think it matters to a starving child if he's
    white or black or jewish or latino or anything? i
    don't. "
    No, but it damnwell has an impact in our society on his likelihood of starving.

    "i've never read "how to lie with statistics". i
    don't believe in statistics."

    You used a statistic when you said "there are more poor white people,etc.."
    That is a statistic.

    Fuckit. If you're going to give up, fine, but don't do it because I got pissed of at shitboy.
    The fucker tried to hound me off the boards and he does this shit to everyone who ever flames him. Does anybody call him on it? No. He just continues to fucking do it and I get shit for telling him to leave me alone. I just got fed up.
    And, if you give up, you don't get to get the last word and then give up.


By The Man on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 05:26 pm:

    You're a sad little person, full of rage at a world where you can't quite keep up. (It can't be your fault, it has to be someone else keeping you down. The whiteboy conspiracy, yeah, that's it.) Step back and disengage, and try to figure out a way to vent your fear and paranoia by means other than frothing and flailing out at strangers, making up pathetic schoolyard names like shitboy and Ratprick.

    Strangely, I have the same image of you as Nate, though he forgot to describe the scowl you always assume whenever you go outside of your insular little safe buuble.

    And if this ad hominem attack sends you into a blind rage, get out of the kitchen. EHF


By heather on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 06:29 pm:

    wow

    rude


By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 07:14 pm:

    Well, I tend not to lend credence to somebody who is
    A. obviously just chiming in b/c he never had an original thought in his life
    and
    B. too chickenshit even to use his real *alias* ferchrissakes.
    and probably
    C. Ratprick trying lamely to hide his identity.
    (btw, credit where it's due... Ratprick was Lather's invention)


By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 07:15 pm:

    (the name not the festering syphilitic cunt-blister who keeps hassling me)


By PATRICK on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 07:21 pm:

    That wasn't me. Check the source code if you have doubts.


By Still Pissed Off Lucy on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 07:36 pm:

    What did I tell you about talking to me?


By Agatha on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 07:46 pm:

    stop talking to EACH OTHER. this only works if both parties participate.


By Patrick on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 07:49 pm:

    dear agatha, I wholly intend to accomodate you (and others AND MYSELF), but I will NOT stand idle with faceless blunt accusations. Would you?


By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 07:55 pm:

    Agatha, I just want to post in peace.
    However, Patrick will NOT leave me alone, and Antigone is making a concerted effort to drive me off of the boards entirely (He suggested that nobody speak to me... another asshole who is trying to take revenge on the world for his small penis).
    And that fucking Canadian just flames me whenever the mood takes him and I had NEVER said anything to him.
    And you people wonder why I'm cranky!


By Antigone on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 08:36 pm:

    I never said that no one should speak to you, Lucy. (If you quote specific instances where I said that I'll happily clarify my thoughts.) My gist has been that we should stop responding to your anger, not that we shouldn't interact with you at all.

    Also, my anatomy is irrelevant to this discussion.


By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 08:48 pm:

    "I think that's a good idea. Everybody (Patrick
    especially) should stop reacting to Lucy.

    So, this is my last post on the subject..."

    This strikes me as being pretty clear.

    However, assuming, as unlikely as it may be, that you merely forgot to qualify it, the fact is that I hadn't even posted on that thread and he was just being vindictive. That was why I got so pissed off in the first place.

    "reacting" my ass.


By agatha on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 09:00 pm:

    lucy, stop referring to them in your posts, and they will do the same. it's so much easier that way. it's like in real life when you work with someone you don't particularly care for, you just avoid having conversations with them. when you are forced to have conversations with them, you just try to keep it civil and brief. let's just all drop it together, and talk about something else.


By Antigone on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 09:07 pm:

    Exactly my point, agatha. You say it much better than I could. Maybe I'm being too terse...


By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 09:38 pm:

    I'm sorry Agatha, I'm just still pissed off by the mob mentality of all of the white males (and lately, everyone else)on this board.
    I didn't have anything against white males, until *this* little exchange.
    Besides the fact that I ignored Ratprick (btw, I am using this term at Lather's suggestion) on this thread when he started frothing at the mouth, and he started harassing me on every other thread.
    And I still tried to ignore it, despite the fact that this was not the first time he had done this to me, and the fact that he pulled the same bullshit with Heather. I politely asked to be left alone and it didn't work. So I swore at the filthy little puddle of peepshow booth sweepings and everyone else joined in on the fun.
    So now I'm pissed and I'm not even sure I want to let that steaming heap of cow dung off anymore. I don't feel that such behavior should go unremarked.
    Quite frankly, I would like to see how that stinking pile of vomit likes having a cadre of white males flaming him whenever, wherever, whatever he posts, in retaliation for attacking their privelege and everybody else on the damned boards sniping at him just to get in on the fun (Can we say "Mob Mentality" boys and girls?).
    I think that he would see that such a thing will have an effect on a person's mood, and possibly make them a smidge more defensive and just maybe a tad less forgiving, especially in regards to the person responsible for making going online a miserable experience for them.


By MapleLeaf on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 10:55 pm:

    Oh I see it all now.....I flamed whenever I felt like it. No I put in my 2 cents CDN. worth when my abundance of tolerance had been surpassed by an endless tirade at whatever/whoever/whereever was said about anything.....things would die down and WHAM!!!!!....the provocation would start again.

    This will be my last post on this subject. I do have to thank you for not using any other vicious names on me other than 'fucking Canadian'. Around these parts that is considered a compliment and a badge of honour.

    Thank you.

    Just so you would know.


By Lather on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 05:37 am:

    How about "you ignorant fuck"? I bet you hear that one alot.


By Lather on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 07:04 am:

    Oh, and just for the record, I am a white male, but:

    "hey sem, can i show you the secret whiteboy handjive?"

    Ratprick, you can take your secret whiney whiteboy handjive handshake crap and shove it up your ass.

    It is not at all funny.


By ML on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 09:19 am:

    Puke!!!!!!!!!!!









    OK....this is my last :)


By Patrick on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 12:07 pm:

    lather,........last I checked i haven't name-called, the way I see it certain peoples around here have made an entire ass of themselves, certain people should be ashamed, certain people should seek fucking help, certain people act like a child, cerain people have gone way overboard, MANY people have expressed this very same opinion, certain childeren have misconceptions about MY INTENTIONS, certain people *think* i wanted to remove certain peoples off the board, I have been antagonistic BUT i have also tried to sincerly LEVEL with some people who are 3 short of a 6 pack, I HAVE, LIKE A MAN, admitted my shortcomings, certain childeren HAVE NOT, certain people have refused to listen to OTHER people and SEE their faulted actions,

    SO......


    to have you come in here and continue the legacy of certain other people is not warranted, they way I see it, you not in a position to be such a prick early on, so back off, stop with the name calling, the only posts you have made have been in between tangles, we have many other things going on here, try to establish yourself before you jump the gun and start with the name calling....


    MY NAME is PATRICK, YOUR name is LATHER, BE A FUCKING MAN and act like an adult!!!!!!


By Lucy Phurre on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 12:14 pm:

    I'm sorry, but I'm NOT done.
    Not ONE person (except for Lather) has said anything about whether or not it is appropriate to hound somebody all over the boards.
    I think one of you said he was "annoying," and you're partly right.
    It was annoying the first time he did this to me.
    It was annoying when he did the same thing to Heather (fortunately, he stormed off the board before he could run her off).
    This time, he's pushed me too far.
    And I'm sorry if I'm a little defensive. People get that way when they are constantly attacked by everyone.
    And I am not satisfied with constant attacks from everyone just being de-escalated to constant sniping from everyone.
    You people are a mob.


By _____ on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 12:23 pm:

    . . .we now return to our regularly scheduled, recurring nightmare: "laughing with lucifer at satan's sideshow".


By Pissed Off Lucy on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 12:42 pm:

    I am defensive because every last one of you sheep is constantly attacking me.
    You people are a mob.
    And I am fucking sick and tired of being pushed around by mobs.
    So I'm pushing back.

    DEAL WITH IT!


By _____ on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 12:53 pm:


By Patrick on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 12:58 pm:

    is that James Chance aka james White and the Blacks aka The Contortions, not the voice but rather the music, that sax is easily identifiable...perhaps Lydia Lunch on vocals....tell tell tell


By Lucy Phurre on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 01:13 pm:

    Sorry, I don't have a soundcard. So you'll have to attack me more accessibly (I don't even doubt that you are attacking me in some way. It's all anybody here fucking does)

    Four legs good,
    Two legs ba-a-a-ad.


By heather on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 01:26 pm:

    my very brief opinion-

    patrick, you do name-call and sometimes go too far

    maple leaf and antigone both jumped into the fray in extremely rude ways (wonder why gee thought you were young ml? although i didn't by the way, per your less reactive posts)

    "white boy hand jive"- not funny after once and a little suspicious (if you get me)

    lucy is right- you have attacked her in abstract and disconnected places- even the people that thought they might be adding something funny or benign--- bad timing

    i'm glad that she's not leaving despite her impression of the 'mob mentality'


By Lucy Phurre on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 01:30 pm:

    Thank you, Heather.
    It means a lot to me to know that I got through to somebody.


By _____ on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 01:33 pm:

    it's pere ubu.


By heather on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 01:41 pm:

    ?


By Patrick on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 01:46 pm:

    my band opened up for Dave Thomas once, he's was a demanding prick.....


By Patrick on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 01:51 pm:

    I have admitted that much heather......the only name calling i have done is a reference to someone's behavior, that word was "ass". I still have the maturity to call people by their respective names/handles.....suspicious? no, excessive? granted.


By Lucy Phurre on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 02:03 pm:

    So, ____, who's Pere Ubu. Sounds like an interesting band.
    What genre?


By _____ on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 02:16 pm:

    sort of avant garde early punk/new wave. actually, they defy labeling, but their fans were/are typically that punk/new wave/artsy type. think early talking heads. this kinda describes it. maybe.


By Patrick on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 02:20 pm:

    i think perhaps dave was kinda pissy to us, because earlier in the day, on the radio show we were playing on (the whole gig was a benefit for the college radio) our guitarist said ..."dave thomas...doesn't he own wendy's..." you should have seen the DJ's face as he squirmed out of that one. They don't have dump buttons in college radio, it is what it is


By Patrick on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 02:22 pm:

    they kinda remind me of Opal or the Rain Parade.

    heard them lineboy? if you'd dig it i think if you likje Pere Ubu


By ____ on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 02:28 pm:

    lay off the coffee there, sparky.


By mistaswine on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 02:33 pm:

    wasn't "rain parade" an 80's neo-psychedelia band? i think one of my ex-girlfriends was into them.

    i kinda liked that band opal. used to listen to "happy nightmare baby" a lot for a little while around '89/'90.

    that chick had a spooky-cool voice.


By mistaswine on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 02:48 pm:

    rain parade had some album with lots of balloons on it and shit. bunch of rainbows, too. god damn neo-hippies.

    or maybe that was game theory. nine lives to rigel five. i used to get a ton of those promos cd's when i did a radio show in highschool.

    hiiiiiiiiskoooooooooooooooooool........


By Patrick on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 02:50 pm:

    kendra smith, yeah she's great and yes Rain Parade is indeed just that, Opal actually had the same guitarist as Rain Parade dave roback, i think he went on to play guitar for Mazzy star as well......I have this other project that kendra smith did called The Guild Of Temporal Adventurers , it's only available on 10" but it's a great album too.......she was orginally in the Dream Syndicate in the 70s, not the original dream syndicate with John Cale and Tony Conrad, but they later not so hot version.....

    happY nightmare Baby is the only record they did, but it's good 80s psychedelic/indie thing


    sorry i got very little sleep and I have headache, and fridays always compare to watching flys fuck, so the maxwell house is indeed good to the last drop if i could just reach THAT last drop


By Patrick on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 02:52 pm:


By mistaswine on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 02:56 pm:

    yeah. now i remember that album.
    all those songs suck except for "no easy way down". i think i had some 12" remix of that on an Enigma Records sampler cd... or something.


By Patrick on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 03:03 pm:

    naaaaawwwwwwww, i dig, it's good and mellow, i do prefer the Opal record if i had to compare...


By Lucy Phurre on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 03:09 pm:

    Thanx, guys. I'll check it out.
    I had been getting a bit gothocentric lately... I spent last weekend listening almost exclusively to Bauhaus and, while Peter Murphy is still God, I'm burning out on it.


By _____ on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 04:30 pm:

    peter murphy did a cover of pere ubu's "final solution". i used to love bauhaus back when i was in high school. i fired up some stuff, i think it was "in the flat field", a while back and it seemed utterly weak and unimpressive. sometimes, past experiences are best when left to remain memories. awkwardly put, but i think you know what i'm getting at. you can never truly go back home.


By Lucy Phurre on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 05:40 pm:

    Well, I had an "End of the Universe" party (with blue lights and everything), and a copy of "The Sky's gone Out," and I just had to combine them.
    Anyway, thanks, I'm kind of understanding what you're talking about.
    (see "I need a Canadian" for more nostalgia-gone-awry stories.)


By cyst on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 06:44 pm:

    "happy nightmare baby" is an important album.

    I bought that opal 10" but have no record player. I bet it's cool.

    what's kendra smith been up to lately?


By semillama on Sunday, December 5, 1999 - 08:33 pm:

    Has it finally stopped spasming? It seems to, I hope. Goddamn undead, can't trus' 'em at all.

    I had some things i could have said, but anything out of my mouth on anything besides Bahaus at this moment would be pissing on a burning bag of shit. Sometimes, restraint is the best way to go (and this coming from a subgenius!)

    So, Bauhaus, um, Has anyone heard "Gotham" yet, is is worth picking up?


By Gee on Sunday, December 5, 1999 - 11:30 pm:

    Subgenius? Pshaw! You're a full genius!!






    I don't really know what "subgenius" means.


By semillama on Monday, December 6, 1999 - 07:45 pm:

    It doesn't mean anything.

    or yes it does, it may mean sub like "underneath the radar"

    or, it could mean this.


By Gee on Wednesday, December 8, 1999 - 12:53 am:

    I'm too lazy to navigate that website. Can you give me the gist of it?


By Sarah on Wednesday, December 8, 1999 - 03:07 pm:


    Quote of the Day:

    "Man, Libertarians are just the GOP with a doobie."




By semillama on Wednesday, December 8, 1999 - 08:35 pm:

    whiel I appreciate the laziness, there is absolutely no way i could give you the gist of it.

    maybe go there and click the link "Afraid?"

    or maybe its called "What the Hell?"


By Nate on Wednesday, December 8, 1999 - 10:28 pm:

    "Man, Libertarians are just the GOP with a doobie."

    amen.

    so why is four finger plausable, but the whole fist such a wall?


By Gee on Thursday, December 9, 1999 - 02:46 am:

    You should not be sharing this with us, Nate.


By Patrick on Thursday, December 9, 1999 - 11:56 am:

    Because four fingers is an even.....there is a balance, the prostate and the sphincter need unison....it's a must.

    Rather than ask why isn't it possible, ask yourself what you would do with the thumb?

    I think you may find yourself in a better situation thereafter.


    i have a pebble in my hand


By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, December 9, 1999 - 02:03 pm:

    Semillama: re: SubGenius... (well, sort of) Your fondness for Bob has led me to wonder how you feel about McLuhan.
    It's just that Bob is so Media, and McLuhan is so unfashionable among anthropologists these days, I've been dying to ask this for some time.


By FETIDBEAVER on Wednesday, December 29, 1999 - 02:23 pm:

    FOR THOSE KEEPING TRACK AT HOME THIS POST IS 174 PAGES TO DATE.


By mistaswine on Wednesday, December 29, 1999 - 03:49 pm:

    the thomas boy says this is the largest thread these boards have ever seen.

    it's about 660K right now, but i want to make it a nice even 666K.

    hail santa.


By Mistaswine on Wednesday, December 29, 1999 - 03:50 pm:

    god dammit.


By mistaswine on Wednesday, December 29, 1999 - 03:52 pm:

    fuck it.

    evil is totally over-rated, anyway.


By Gee on Thursday, December 30, 1999 - 02:47 am:

    shhhhh.


By identify this bitch. on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 06:53 am:

    "merit-based society"

    what a crock of shit.

    i never did like that kid.



By Nate on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 03:03 pm:

    i miss knowing everything.


By heather on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 04:36 pm:

    nate!

    i miss knowing anything


By agatha on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 07:46 pm:

    NaTe! You have been missed. Tell us a story.


By jack on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 12:34 am:


    what a thread. hey, nate.


By Antigone on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 03:14 am:

    Ah, those were the days, before I replaced every molecule in my body. A fleshy wave, am I.

    How's your wave going, Nate?


By dave. on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 05:34 am:

    this thread reinforces my fundamental philosophy -- in the realm of politics and economics, the only correct hardline position is one that states that you/i/we are wrong.

    all systems fail. wrongness, or natural law, is the only position that, when allowed to run its course, invariably expects failure or defeat as the probable outcome.

    so, the stability of any political or economic system requires dynamic regulation -- politics -- to moderate the effects of destabilizing certainty.

    that lucy wouldn't budge, was or will be her undoing.



    thus endeth another half-baked, overly-didactic and over-simplified screed by dave. mwa.


By dave. on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 05:57 am:

    and, lucy, if you're still out there, i was _____.

    and that pere ubu song was basically david thomas complaining in a hysterical voice about his fears, while the rest of the band sang the refrain, "we know" over and over.

    m'kay?


By droopy on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 11:59 am:

    i'd like to hear this entire thread as a radio play for voices. maybe pere ubu could do the score.

    i dig you, dave. it's that damn entropy. time's decaying arrow. gotta love it.

    nate! big kiss.


By heather on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 06:07 pm:

    you humans


By platypus on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 07:39 pm:

    you are all sheep.


By Jesus holmes on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 01:31 am:

    dave. was right all along. that might be a flaw in his fundamental philosophy, but who am i to judge.

    nate hits the same walls over and over again. he finds the cyclical nature of the universe to be oddly personal. secretly, he knows this is simply himself. his known issues have simple solutions, but he does not resolve them. or he is slowly resolving them. he is not certain. he lives the buddhist metaphor without buddhist style. instead of ever renewing lives he has months and years, and he skips from one reality to another gaining insight but learning nothing. the same walls, over and over again. it was cute the first time.

    he needs to become still and calm and wait. he needs to become silent and wait. he needs to become self-reliant and wait. the wait, it is the common theme and, while it is not the whole of it, it is a first step towards proof.

    proof of what? proof of worth. proof of suitability. something.

    he wants something he cannot touch. something he does not know for sure exists. something he has been scrambling towards all his life, some perfection forged in a partnership. a man and woman. he leaps at anything that glitters, assuming he must have found that idyllic state.

    yes, he is looking for the relationship he perceived his parentsí to have. yes, he makes every woman his mother. and if she accepts the role, he settles into it and becomes fat and dead. but not now, right? do we believe he will figure it out this time? will he become still and calm and self-reliant?

    sure he will. he will because this is his last chance. it is now or never. all hell is going to break loose, and he will fight through it standing up, and then he will be ready. he will be self-contained and impervious.

    that time has gone. the last chance has already passed.

    this is no longer making any sense. iím drinking a beer i told myself not to drink. that sounds like something it is not. if i intended to go in to work tomorrow, iíd be lying in bed right now. iíd be avoiding the beer. iíd be spending hours clenching and relaxing, diaphragm breathing, coaxing this body towards sleep. iíve been promised that lying still and relaxed is seventy-five percent of sleep. i donít buy it. a night of that and i still rise insane.

    but now, i donít intend to go to work tomorrow. i havenít been all week. my boss is in death valley, but come monday morning i know exactly who is going to tell him where i havenít been. it does not matter. nothing will come of it.

    i thought about resigning early wednesday morning. unslept and facing a six am alarm; a rain soaked bus line; an angry, psychedelic, confused day Ė i told myself this working life was not going to work, that i should just quit. instead, i turned off my alarm, decided i would take a sick day, and fell asleep.

    life kind of collapses then. when i wake i can smell the rot in the sink from my bed. i can hear my motherís voice as i walk through the house, ďhow can people live like that?Ē i donít know mom, itís disgusting. itís disgustingly easy. you adapt, you adapt. i just never feel good about it.

    so i make lentil soup. or stew. i donít know where the recipe came from, it just made sense at the time.

    but first, i have to clean a space to work. i dump the rotten remains of some dinner past from pots and pans. i scraped plates and stack them. i scrub the sink with comet. i take out the foul garbage. i put the wine bottles in shopping bags and carry them to the recycling bin. it isnít what it looks like, iíve been collecting them in here for some time now.

    i wash a pot to cook in and a cutting board and a knife. water hot enough to hurt. i dice two strips of bacon and start them in the pot over medium low-heat. the fat liquefies slowly without crisping. when the bacon starts to color i add a quarter of a yellow onion, minced. and a dried chile, minced, seeds and all. i donít know what these chiles are called, but they are red and thin. chile de arbol, maybe.

    i let this all cook for awhile. i coarsely chop the rest of the onion and put it in a bowl. i start washing pots and pans, starting with the most foul. the dishes start to seem more manageable. newtonís first law of doing dishes becomes evident.

    i mince four cloves of garlic. the garlic goes into the pot with the bacon and onion. i bring the heat up slightly and stir until the garlic becomes fragrant. i let it go a little longer and then add two cups of water. i scrape up the fond and then add four cups of chicken stock and three cardamom pods. the heat goes to high.

    while iím waiting for the boil, i work the dishes down further. the smell rot has been replaced by bacon and onion. the broth comes to a low boil. i add two cups of green lentils and reduce the heat. the lentils simmer, covered, for thirty minutes.

    meanwhile, i sautť the onion i chopped earlier. i chop into bite sized pieces three carrots, a bunch of radish, and six or so little yukon gold creamers. when the onion is soft, i add these to the pan with some garam masala and some powdered cayenne pepper. to taste, which means heavy on the red. i toss it all together for a minute or two and then set it aside off heat.

    then, dishes.

    when half an hour is up on the lentils, i fish out the cardamom pods. then, i add two cans of the muir glen fire roasted whole tomatoes. i break them up a bit in the pot with a wooden spoon. then, the sautťed vegetables. cover and simmer until the potatoes are done.

    this takes about twenty minutes. plenty of time to finish the kitchen.

    the lentil stew, the pouring rain, the glimmer of contentment.

    this morning, the rain broke and the sun was bright and warm. i wore shorts and went looking for vultures.


By platypus on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 01:35 am:

    I went to Caspar today, for a dinner party. It looks much the same as it looked six years ago.

    The rain stopped and today was breathlessly sunny and perfect. Dinner was delicious, and so was the scrabble afterwards. There were lentils there, too.


By J.h. on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 02:06 am:

    who knew lentils are good?

    send me an email: milkphone@wwnd.org

    that email address will self destruct in a couple weeks.


By heather on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 02:10 am:

    also good: cannellini beans


By dave. on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 02:51 am:

    i do dishes a bit differently. i start with the silverware and utensils and the glasses and cups, soaking them all in the hottest soapy water for about a beer. maybe two beers. this way, i remove the bulk of the clutter first, which soothes me.

    then, after washing the above load, i move to plates and bowls, soaking for another beer. after washing these loads, i put a load of various stuff (cuisinart accessories, smaller pots and pans, etc.) in the now tepid and increasingly funky dishwater to soak and i let the first two loads drip dry in the drain rack and return about a beer later to put the mostly dry dishes away.

    this is sometimes where i leave it, unless i'm feeling very ambitious. in that case, i'll finish the dishes soaking and load the rest of the larger items in the now very gnarly water to soften up the crusty food stuck to them.

    at that point, i usually invite agatha to finish up because, somewhat like nate, she seems to prefer doing the big items because all the small stuff overwhelms her.

    usually she declines and i end up leaving the big pieces in a neat, nested stack.

    i don't know why, but i can easily wash a couple sinkloads of small items and balk at spending the necessary time to wash 3 or 4 big things. there has to be some kind of personality test that you can frame around this. because we need more personality testing.

    good to hear from you, nate. clearly, i'm not right. i have a friend who, in another life, was a project manager and has very strong confidence in her rightness. we talked about this and she said to me in a tone that was almost annoyed, as if i had asked her why water is so wet, something like "if i didn't trust that i was right, i couldn't get anything done". and on that level, she was right again. damn her.

    i wouldn't recommend a belief in wrongness. in the long run, you get to point and say, "told ya", but the rest of your time is pretty lame and disappointing.

    cleo's getting to be a teenager now, no longer a litle kid, per se. i find myself fighting back the urge to call her on some of her wrong-headed stances on issues. i have to remind myself that she is only 12 and she'll come around eventually. but it's tough.

    the grocery store we shop at has these white paper bags that they use specially for cold stuff, like ice cream. i save them because i think they're cool. the one above my desk right now has a happy penguin in a toque, dancing in the snow with the words "cold sack" across the top of the image. the other day, she pointed at it and said "cold sack! hahahahahahaha!" *sigh* maybe we shouldn't let her watch south park.


By dave. on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 03:06 am:

    try the black lentils. trader joe's has them. lentils rock. the only good progresso soup is the lentil soup.

    i also really like plain ol' black beans. a bowl of short grain brown rice smothered with black beans (a can of organic beans works fine) and topped with clover sprouts and either salsa or lemon tahini dressing. add garlic powder to taste. yum! i could live on that. you know, post-holocaust. when the taco wagons are all gone.


By heather on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 03:22 am:

    jh nate sounds the same

    there is comfort in that


By lapis on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 08:35 am:

    adzuki beans are neat. reddish-brown with a little white stripe. use some coconut milk in the water and top your bowl of beans and rice with cilantro and sweet chili sauce.

    or black lentils and quinoa with anything.

    dishes are a struggle. i like to dump all the knives and forks in a mug with hot water while i concentrate on the big stuff.


By patrick on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 12:35 pm:

    interesting.

    we had lentils this week too. something we havent had in a long time.

    poor man indian food. basmati cooked with clove, cardamon and cinnamon. orange lentils cooked to a mush with an array of indian spices i know nothing about. then she takes olive oil along with some spice I dont know and simmers the slivers until they are crispy (like bacon).

    lentils over rice then drizzle oil/garlic/unknown spice over the top and you have an aromatic indian poor food that you can't stop shoveling into your mouth until gastrointestinal pain sets in.

    its important to add this odd yellow powedered spice to the lentils. it cooks down and smells like onion. supposedly it helps with digestion. supposedly, it keeps you from farting up a shit storm after eating a heap of lentils.

    dishes are also a struggle this week for me as well as we are integrating our two kitchens. im allowed no input (which is fine) because she is a kitchen nazi. so, everything has been in disaray and i can barely distinquish the dirty dishes from the clean ones recently removed from a box and awaiting their carefully-considered deployment to a drawer or cabinent.

    more notable to me is the common themes indicated here in the collective sorabji subconcious (caspar?) of dishes and lentils.


By TBone on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 01:29 pm:

    I'm glad you're back, nate. I hope you haven't been trying to quit us.

    I don't sort my dishes. I start with what's already in the sink, and work outward through the apartment. I keep a towel slung over my shoulder and dry the dishes whenever the rinsing sink gets full. I open all the cabinets and drawers and put things away as I dry them. I run the nice knives over the ritual steel rod.

    I don't do the drying-rack thing because it feels like it fills the whole kitchen. There's also little chance that I'll put the dishes away later on. If I don't finish the job all in one go, I never will. The dishes will sit on the counter, pissing me off, taking up space and getting in the way, but I won't put them away.

    Jess usually gets to the dishes before I do. She always uses the drying rack. Sometimes, I used to come over and dry the dishes as she finished them, but one day she confessed that she likes the dishes to sit out on the rack in recognition of her effort. She puts the silverware and knives underneath the rack where I can't get to them. I don't think she uses enough soap, either. By the end, she's scrubbing away on a greasy pan in gray, sudsless water, but she won't add more.

    We're stubborn dishwashers.

    In the morning, I re-wash my favorite pan if it's still tacky. Then I put it on medium heat to dry and warm it up. I grab my breakfast potato, grab the combination scrubber-peeler and apply both ends to the tuber. I grate the peeled potato onto a folded paper towel, salt it lightly, and fold the towel over it. While the towel absorbs the excess moisture, I grind a double-shot's worth of coffee, tamp it and load it into the warmed-up machine. I add a generous quantity of olive oil to the hot pan and press the grated potato onto the oil in a wide, shallow mass. While that fries, I pull the shot, warm up my travel mug, steam milk, and put it all together. Somewhere in there, I flip the hash browns and add a more oil to replace what the potato drank. I place the mug by the door where I hope I won't forget it.

    When the hash browns are a fetching golden brown on both sides, I slap them onto a plate and enjoy. I've been doing this every morning for weeks, and it's the longest consecutive stretch that I've eaten breakfast. You'd think a daily breakfast of oily fried potato would make me fat, but I've started to lose weight without changing anything else.


By Karla on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 04:10 pm:

    A word of advice, Jesus Holmes: Never admit to wearing shorts on these boards.


By semillama on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 04:29 pm:

    How I wash dishes:

    I sort everything by type: glasses, bowls, plates, utensils, plastic storage containers, and cookware, and I wash them in that order. I add a capful of bleach to my soapy water. I leave them out in the rack to dry, and usually don't put them away until the next time I do dishes. I usually end up waiting until my sinks get full. In true single dude living by himself fashion, I often pick out the utensils and plates I need from the drying rack on an as-needed basis.

    Hi nate! you need a puppy.


By Nate on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 07:47 pm:

    a word of advice, karla: never, ever, EVER tell the jesus holmes what he should or should not say.

    i read cumin seed helps reduce the lentil's colon blow. odd yellow powder sounds like turmeric to me.

    i do the big things first to recover counter space rapidly. typicaly i'd wash glasses first, in the cleanest water. i like to fill the deep sink with everything and hot soapy water. it is like an investment. if i don't get everything done at once, i am wasting the energy spent heating the water.

    i've been doing a lot of scrubbing with comet. it is what my mom used. it smells like clean.

    i want to scrub my hands with it. like christian bale in the machinist.

    i tried to make tbone's potatoes but i fucked them up. kind of. they still tasted like fried potatoes. which is good.

    i want to compress myself. sem, a puppy would be a bad idea.

    i miss this kind of sorabji experience. i don't imagine it will last.



By lapis on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 08:57 pm:

    i wait until my roommates begin complaining or wash on a whim. it's rather inconsistent.

    the first thing i do is unload the dishwasher (yes, it does make it easier, but only halfway). if it's clean, everything gets put away. if it's dirty, i give everything a scrub and return it to the dishwasher. plates first (largest to smallest), then bowls (smallest to largest), put in the lower rack. any baking sheets go there as well. utensils and flatware are stuffed in a mug, used end down, as i find them. glasses and mugs are next (top rack now), followed by knives (center of the rack). then storage containers and their lids. after all that, i put the oddballs in. then the utensils, which have their own special order and are evenly spaced {those which may be placed eating end up, those that must be down, those with handles glued on. plastic. chopsticks (points up). miscillaneous implements (dull). ended by small knives (points down)]. last of all, i put in the cutting board (the one that's used most often is huge and makes it difficult to open and close the dishwasher).

    hopefully by this point there's no more dishes, but i wash what's left, leaving them in the drying rack. clean the sink, run the disposall (it's broken now so last time i scooped up things into a lid and ran them to the compost heap), then start the dishwasher.

    -

    lately i've been using turmeric and cumin in my ramens and stir fries. it's good. ground pepper. i really like naughty curry.com.

    trying oh-so-hard to keep myself from drinking soda. i carry a pink (refillable) liter bottle everwhere, sometimes drinking three of those in a day. in the mornings, i try to get up early enough to have a cup of tea or two, drinking more in the afternoon when i'm off work.

    i only drink coffee when i go out (for breakfast, or for coffee specifically). don't drink milk, and juice is special.

    when my boyfriend is over and we make breakfast in the morning we'll walk to safeway (six blocks) to get orange juice to go with our potatoes. sometimes we watch cartoons while we eat.

    it's nice to be able to act like a kid.


By dave. on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 11:09 pm:

    this thread is cracking me up.

    or, as antigone might add, upping me crack.

    so, laundry. wash and dry, yes. fold and put away, that's one good reason to have kids.

    when i do laundry, i always start by pulling all my stuff out of the hamper and wash it first. takin' care of #1, baybee! then, i randomly grab anything else, disregarding colors and fabrics . . . and then . . . and then . . .


By agatha on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 11:48 pm:

    NO AND DEN!

    AAAANNNNND DEEEEENNNNNN...


By Nate on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 02:06 am:

    i pull four to six squares from the roll, carefully fold it into a nice pad, and then a single stroke from back to front. (thank god for being a man!) i check the pad and then repeat as necessary.


By platypus on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 04:04 am:

    I'm anal retentive enough that I wash dishes as I make them. And then they hang out in the drying rack until they are mostly dry.

    Tonight as I walked home the sky was leaking.

    I eat oranges with a knife and fork.


By moonit on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 04:42 am:

    I only eat apple if its been chopped up.


By lapis on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 09:07 am:

    i ate cereal with chopsticks a couple times.


By platypus on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 02:25 pm:

    I was going to try and make TBones potatoes, but then I remembered all my potatoes got roasted with beets and asparagus last night, so now I'm making a frittata of sorts. I'm looking forward to eating it with a spoon.


By sarah on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 03:49 pm:


    boognish.


    tuesday i found myself at work at 8 a.m. checked and answered work email. checked calendar for day and week. made a call. looked at my list.

    ready

    set

    go check personal email.

    i was planning on writing nate back later that afternoon.


    *******


    Dear Sash:

    It is 8:30 PM here. I just got home from the gym and opened my e-mail.

    My Mom died today. Do not have or know of her will, her wishes, nor her intentions. She did not share anything with me... and as you know I intentionally did not ask. I don't know what to feel or say... I loved her in my own way. She was my mom. I cannot go to Michigan now. Clearly Mom has made arrangements of her own well in advance. Not sure if I will call Regina right away.

    I will grieve, but I am OK & happy.

    Love

    Dad

    Below is a note from my cousin Rosalynn... she lives somewhere in California and was contacted by cousin Phil and or my Aunt Cecile.


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Rosalyn [mailto:shxxxxxk@yahoo.com]
    Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 7:24 PM
    To: txxxx@hawaii.rr.com
    Subject: Time and tide waits for no man

    Dear Cousin Joe--I just got off the phone with Aunt Cecile, and she told me that your mother passed peacefully this evening.

    She said Faye had been very excited to leave the hospital last week. She was tired of the IV's, O2, and needles to the abdomen. Cecile moved over to Pam's (she is cousin Phil's step-daughter), where a hospital bed was set up in the den, for Faye, and hospice came in to help w/the pain.

    "We just watched her go down hill. She stopped talking and it seemed that she was looking inside." This evening Cecile was checking the new nebulizer and Pam came in and noticed that Faye wasn't breathing. They couldn't find a pulse but could feel her heart beating, and finally that stopped too. She had been in a lot of pain these past years and so it was a relief.

    Since Passover begins at sunset Wed., they figure the funeral will be sometime that day, but no one had contacted the rabbi yet. Cecile tells me that Faye had made all the arrangements years ago and will be buried at Mach Palach, next to your Dad, grandfather and grandmother. Hebrew Memorial is
    the mortuary, and the ladies of her temple will be
    handling sitting shiva. I don't know where.

    I am sorry to have to be the one to tell you this. Tomorrow you can contact Cousin Phil at the # I gave you, and he'll have more info. As we discussed earlier, they stand by your mother's wishes not to inform your sister Regina. Faye was like a mother to me when we were all on Grand Ave, and all the sisters provided some comic relief when things got too intense w/my parents. I'll always be thankful for that and for having some fabulous cousins. Please accept my condolences for the passing of a great woman, your mother. Take care of yourself and keep in touch.

    Cousin Roz


    ***************


    so i cried for 30 minutes. when i got my head about me, i called Hebrew Memorial to try to get information on what day for sure and what time services were being held.

    next morning, Wednesday, 10:30 a.m.

    called my cousin first.

    oh god oh god oh god. how will i tell my mother? she cried.

    that's why i called you first, i said.

    are you coming?

    i'm going to try.

    go across the hall to my secretary's office. my grandmother died, the jews bury their dead right away and tomorrow's passover, so i'm going to try to go.

    oh i'm so sorry? are you okay? do you need anything?

    no thanks.

    she follows me anyway back to my office.

    do you have meetings today?

    two.

    with whom? i'll call them for you.

    the kindness of people, the simplest things, when it matters the most. that's what you remember.

    at 9:22 a.m. i was wandering out of the building toward my car with the phone up to my ear, my secretary trailing behind me.

    your glasses! your lunch! did you want your purse???

    driving back home while on the phone with northwest airlines, making reservations to leave austin on the only flight available that day leaving at 11:50 a.m. one hour and ten minutes to get home and get packed.

    head swimming.



    cut to funeral.


    i attend with my cousin Rachel. we are two out of my grandmother's five grandchildren (the other three are Rachel's brothers). neither of my grandmother's children were there.

    second cousins, aunts, uncles, cousins once and twice removed, etc. nobody recognizes me, people i haven't seen in fifteen years or more. the ones who do point to me and Rachel and whisper.

    one says "who told them?"

    the other responds with a hand signal and head shake.

    meanwhile other family members now begin to rush to say goodbye to my grandmother while the casket is still open behind the curtain.

    they need to hurry to close the casket and curtain, so as not to allow us to see our grandmother. we wait in line anyway, sitting in the front row.

    silent.

    the curtain opens.

    a sobbing cousin and wife appear and she hisses at us as she passes down the aisle "how dare you!"

    the chapel official closes the curtain, pretends not to see us.

    excuse me.

    EXCUSE ME.

    he looks.

    we would like to be permitted to see our grandmother.

    he pauses. he glances to the back of the chapel. he stutters, "well the jewish custom is-"

    i know what the custom is {asshole}, we would like to be permitted to see OUR GRANDMOTHER.

    i'll have to check with The Family, he replies.

    Rachel and i look at each other and silently, with our eyes, in unison we ask each other, "The Family?"

    he continues to the back of the chapel and we never see him again.

    so there sit, staring silently at the container holding my grandmother's body. it's light grey, simple, small, draped in an american flag.

    i try to talk to her but it's hard with all the noise in my head, the psychic noise of hatred, family feuds, unforgiveness.



    the eulogy.


    only her rabbi and her youngest sister give their accounts. apparently the only parts of my grandmother's life that matter are birth through her service as an army nurse in France in WWII, then fast forward to her eighth decade.

    memories of my grandmother that are not my memories.

    "she was a loving sister and aunt. a brave and nurturing nurse."


    what about mother? what about grandmother? what about her 20 year marriage to the son and brother of southern baptist and methodist ministers. what about the birth of her two children? her five grandchildren? what about her years in retirement? the founding of her own synagogue? her activism with WWII jewish war veteran groups?

    what about the time when i burned myself on hot matzo ball soup and screamed for my grandmother all the way to the hospital?

    what about the times we sat in her dining room playing scrabble or boggle and eating dry, under-seasoned baked chicken breast with steamed broccoli and baked potato with no butter?

    remember the year we had passover dinner and it was served on her antique family-heirloom china?


    i visited her when i could, and later when it counted. i wrote and called. i lived my life.


    it's raining.


    out at the grave site the rabbi sings and prays and sings. the family gathers under a tent around the casket, the edlerly are seated, as they lower her into the ground.

    i stand under the tent. my cousin stands much farther away, under a nearby tree.

    the grave diggers, one black, one caucasian, both in their mid-40s, heretofore invisible, appear with shovels.

    my grandmother's living siblings (2 out of 6) and siblings in law and nephews take turns shoveling dirt onto her casket.

    when it is done, the american flag is given to a distant cousin's step-daughter. everyone wanders off, back to the chapel.


    finally alone with the container, i move forward to stare down into the hole. the volume from the psychic noise of evil wishers, haters has been turned down to low, i can say goodbye.

    i cry.

    Rachel appears next to me, coming out from under the tree to get me and hold me. she sings the lullabye my grandmother sang to us as kids.

    as she carries me away toward the car, a cousin approaches us from the side. the one who asked the other cousin, who told them? i see a glimpse of his uniform and his outstretched hand. i turn away and a new gush of tears erupts into my cousin's shoulder.


    she says to him


    you

    better

    be

    careful

    what

    you

    say

    right

    now.



    i hear him say quietly, i wasn't going to go there. i just wanted to say that i'm glad you came.


    thank you, i said, thank you. muffled against Rachel's sweater.


    Rachel says.


    you might have said that to us sooner.


    but no matter. i was there because i wanted to acknowledge and honor my grandmother, who was a great woman in many ways, and i loved her.

    the thing about death and funerals is that, well, the person is dead and that's that. i guess it's so everyone else can console each other and remember together. it's not where the reconciling occurs, not necessarily. and i had nothing to reconcile anyway.

    i am not my aunt.

    i am not my father.

    i am not, to my grandmother's chagrin, a jew.

    may she rest, finally, in peace.


    my flight back to austin leaves in a couple hours.




By V on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 04:18 pm:

    "Whats it look like"...London England,mist,fog,still too cold last week,put 6000 flower seeds in the garden last week,10 may come up,if i am lucky.


By platypus on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 04:30 pm:

    Oh, Sarah.

    April has not been a good month.


By V on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 04:49 pm:

    Aril,is the month of slugs.


By V on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 04:52 pm:

    (april)


By Wisper on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 10:20 pm:

    Dearest sarah, i hope you feel better soonish.
    That's a sad story even though i don't fully understand all of it.


By semillama on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 02:53 am:

    that is very sad, sarah.

    I just drank a bottle of reisling that has been sitting unopened in
    my fridge for two years. I drank it over about 5 hours while
    playing this insanely addictive game: Oblivion.

    where are you now, Sarah? still in MI? or back to a warmer clime?

    it pisses me off when people can't get over their own shit,
    especially at a funeral. you'd think there would be no better
    reminder that you have to make things right while you are still
    exhaling, but some people just don't get it at all, I guess.

    I'm staying awake now because I can. not too many nights I can
    stay up this late without regretting it in the morning.

    nate, I should clarify that I meant you need access to a puppy.
    not that you should own one. I totally understand not being in a
    situation to own high maintenance animals,


By sarah on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 10:09 am:


    thanks y'all.


    yeah, it was really sad. i'm usually not sad at funerals. if i cry about someone who died, it's usually just right at first when i find out.


    but more than sad, the whole thing was surreal, almost prophetic.


    the situation between my grandmother and her only daughter is exactly like the situation between my mother and me. the only differences being a) the reason my grandmother disowned her daughter is very different from the reason my mother disowned me, and b) my aunt - ever since their falling out - allows it to consume and drive her life.



    i hate to generalize, but in my experience, jewish families have a special gift for being divisive. add to this an ancient, enculturated tendency to be "Long Suffering" and you've got a recipe for trouble.



    those in the family who have not adopted the long suffering are outsiders.

    one of my dad's first cousins is the ONLY one who was able to accomplish both rejecting the long suffering and being happy and healthy, while also not being outcast from the family. but that's because he's the Jewish Doctor.





By patrick on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 02:42 pm:

    sorry sarah.


By patrick on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 02:45 pm:

    and the yellow indian spice good for digestion is asafetida or devils dung, or stinking dirt.


By kazu on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 03:44 pm:

    I'm sorry sarah.

    Your story sounds much like a book I just read called *The Changelings* by Jo Sinclair. It's not a great literary text, but a good story.


By dave. on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 04:32 am:

    sarah, peace.

    assuming anyone cares about this -- last week, i meant to clarify my whole "wrongness" thing above. never got around to it until now.

    my position isn't to try to be wrong. i actually try to be right all the time. the "wrongness" part comes from my expecting and accepting that i'm probably going to be wrong. if i turn out to be right, that's beautiful. on the other hand, if i turn out to be wrong, i'm not completely stuck in the mud of my stubborn belief because i'm always prepared to modify it to some degree or abandon it, even if it means losing a shoe in the process.

    i didn't think that was clear based on my previous, pbr-inspired blatherings about this.

    carry on.


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