People dead and living What does it look like where you are?: People dead and living

By Spider on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 09:25 am:

    I just got back from 3 days in the Chicago and South Bend, IN areas. Yesterday, I went to the Art Institute of Chicago and the Mexican Fine Arts Museum (also in Chicago) -- both are full of great art.

    The highlight of the Art Institute was the modern art collection. It's immense. It's intense. It's wonderful.

    I felt like such a sucker when I saw Marlene Dumas' work. You could practically hear it screaming, "BE DISTURBED!" and...I was disturbed. It wasn't even that great, but it was still unsettling. This painting was part of the collection, for an example.

    The days before yesterday, I stayed with my best friend, R., who now is a grad student at the U of Notre Dame. You know what I'm about to say, but I'll say it anyway. I really liked it there! It was so Catholic! There are chapels everywhere. The undergrad population is 85% Catholic, and all of the grad students I spoke to were, as well. And, like, REALLY into it. If you think I am, have no idea what these people were like.

    But let me tell you what someone said to me. I was eating lunch with R. and one of her classmates came up to us to say hello. He was about to leave for Medjugorje (see what I mean?) and we spoke about that for maybe five minutes, with him doing most of the talking. He then put his hand on my shoulder and said to me, "You are so full of light. Really, you're luminous."

    I didn't know what to say to that, so I just thanked him.

    Later, I thought that since I had just come from Mass before I met him, maybe he was seeing the spirit of God within me.

    Then I thought, if you want to hit on a Catholic girl, you say THAT.

By dave. on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 10:25 am:

    so, do you now have a wicked crush or what?

By Spider on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 10:51 am:

    No...I only spoke with him for a few minutes, not enough time for a crush to develop.

    Though he *was* very good-looking. And into the theology of the body. And he knew where the closest church with Perpetual Adoration was.


By patrick on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 12:05 pm:

    i only hope this progresses into the most sordid and entangled Catholic love affair ever. I want to know how the other half loves.

    "And into the theology of the body"

    this is such fertile soil.

    carry on Spider.

By Spider on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 12:49 pm:

    Nah, he'd be way out of my league, even if I didn't live 100s of miles away.

    However, I do think it would be a lot easier to find someone at a place like that. I always feel like my Catholicism is a major obstacle in my current situation in life -- you know, what normal person would want to enter into a relationship knowing that there will be strict limits on certain things, especially when they had no say in determining the limits? You know?

    But being in an environment where it's not only okay for me to have those limits but almost expected, and the guys have those same limits themselves....well, that's just neat.

By patrick on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 12:51 pm:

    "Nah, he'd be way out of my league, even if I didn't live 100s of miles away."


By Spider on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 01:07 pm:

    Hee. I still wouldn't be in his league, my luminosity notwithstanding. :)

    But I am thinking of continuing my education, so there's no reason not to consider Notre Dame as a possibile future home. They have a great medieval studies program, and I saw a sign advertising a series of lectures on Irish history which sounded very seems like a great place to go.

By patrick on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 01:12 pm:

    "still wouldn't be in his league,"

    lashings for this brand of nonsense spider.

By eri on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 01:34 pm:

    I have family out there and went to visit. They took me out to Notre Dame. I loved it. It is a beautiful school. If I were only in the 100's of miles away, I would move and go to school there!

By semillama on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 02:54 pm:

    You should do it Spider. ALthough Kazoo wants you to go to Emory.

By Spider on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 03:11 pm:

By dave. on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 03:48 pm:

    you're thinking about him, aren't you?

By Spider on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 04:39 pm:

    Stop that!

By semillama on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 05:13 pm:

    Spider's swooning! Spider's swooning!

By wisper on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 06:25 pm:

    man, as being keen on jesus goes, catholocism is the shit.
    it's all archaic and ritualistic and cool.
    When i was in highschool they had it so watered down. We didn't even have to learn the saints names or anything like the horror stories i heard about from my parents. My whole time in school i only ever met one nun, and she was wearing sweat pants.
    Then a few years ago, in the trash, i found an old catholic school religion textbook from the 50's.
    I feel so cheated. It has charts of the ranks of angels in it, all their names, and drawings of each rank. It has a detailed list of "Enemies of Mother Church". Mother church! That's awesome!
    It has full page illustrations of the angels and god fighting Lucifer out of heaven!
    I never would have skipped religion class if they had THIS still. We just spent our time memorizing the origins of the Bible and comparing old to new testament and comparing various beliefe systems and.... hell i can't even remember what we did.

    Sure, one time this anti-abortion activist came in, and she was fun to watch, but....

    But the stuff in this book is the REAL DEAL. All D&D comic book intense type stuff. Crazy medieval stuff. Exciting stuff.

    whoo! Catholicism!

By Antigone on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 08:26 pm:

    rhi, if you think you're in someone's league, you are. Them's the rules.

By eri on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 10:14 pm:

    It can work out that way. When Spunky and I met he thought I was totally out of his league. We just became friends and didn't worry about dating. We talked about our other S/O's. In the end we got married.

    OK that sounds lame, but true.

    I'll shut up again.

By semillama on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 09:27 am:

    I thought Kazoo was out of my league as well, which is why sometimes I still wake up surprised to see such a beautiful lady asleep next to me.

    (it's fun to type that becasue she probably won't see it until she gets back to Atlanta next week)

By Spider on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 12:18 pm:

    I don't buy it, Antigone. Or maybe I should say, that would take far more confidence than I could muster.

    But enough about me and my low self-image.

    Sem, is Kazoo on break? Maybe she could transfer somewhere more northerly. :)

By Antigone on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 12:35 pm:

    Nah. Not enough. I sold myself short for most of my adult life.

    Don't do it.

    When I stopped selling myself short, wonderful things happened. Life is much better now, for me.

    It should be that way for you, too.

    Want a religious angle? Look at yourself the way Jesus would look at you. Love yourself. Nurture yourself. Encourage yourself. It's your duty to do such things.

By Antigone on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 12:36 pm:

    Of course, Jesus may not say, "Dawg, you're a sexy beast!"

    You should say that to yourself anyway. :)

By patrick on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 01:12 pm:

    yeah spider. cut it out.

By Spider on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 01:13 pm:

    Ha! I'll probably think of that at the least appropriate time. Like in line for Communion. :)


By Antigone on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 01:33 pm:

    Think of it any time. Let it grow on you. Changing instincts isn't easy, and it's best to start where you're most emotionally comfortable. If that's in line for communion, then so be it.

By dave. on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 03:06 pm:

    shit, hop sing.

    all i got was "go fly a kite".

By Spider on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 03:23 pm:

    Well, duh. Dave = bear. Spider = labrador retriever. Which one would you pet?

By Spider on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 03:27 pm:

    (Now that I think about it, I'd rather pet a bear.)

By dave. on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 03:30 pm:

    both. unless by "bear", you mean "big, hairy, gay man". which i hope you don't mean.

By Spider on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 03:46 pm:

    Nope, I meant a real bear.

    Have you (and Cleo) seen the movie, "The Bear"?

By wisper on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 05:50 pm:

    i'll pet the big hairy gay man!

    aww, so cute

    p.s. whoo! Catholicism!

By Spider on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 08:46 am:


    Wisper, do you remember who some of the "Enemies of the Mother Church" were?

    Did you know the Church publishes a list of, like, crimes against Catholicism every year? I found it once when I was doing a search for this band that had a scandalous picture of Jesus on one of their album covers. They were on the list.

By wisper on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 12:41 pm:

    i don't have to remember, Spider, i keep the book beside my bed.
    the pictures inside it are so cool....
    check it OUT

    (sorry the scans are fuzzy. And wft it up with that 'tree of death'?)
    The stuff about angels is particularily neato. And i dunno what the hell this means, but it sure is a handy chart, isn't it?
    SO 50's.

    anyway, the "Attacks on the Greath Truth of Our Faith" are as follows:

    Protestantism WATCH OUT!

    I don't know about you, but i think Manichaeism is destroying this great land.
    I just scanned the quick summary page, but before that it goes in depth about each one.

    That list reminds me of King of the Hill, when Bobby was chosen as the re-incarnation of a Lama, and so Hank took him to church to teach him about how great their own faith was, and (i think they're Anglicans?) when asked "what does it mean to be Anglican", the pastor goes- "it means we're against the Calvinists."
    And Hank turns to Bobby and exclaims- "See?! we're against the Calvinists!"

    this book is such a trip.
    i love this book.

By wisper on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 12:43 pm:

By Spider on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 01:10 pm:

    That *is* a neat book -- pre-Vatican II Catholicism was a lot more elaborate than it is today.

    That list of enemies contains heresies popular in the first millenium of the Church -- Arianism and Manicheanism were big ones.

    Gnosticism is pretty neat -- it holds that the god of the Bible, Jehovah, is actually evil and blind. He can't see the "real" god, who is actually the Fullness of Spirit (many spirits in one) and is above him. This Fullness, if I recall correctly, takes the part of the snake in the story of the garden of's that for a twist? There are two worlds -- the world of the flesh/material (evil, created by Jehovah) and the world of the spirit (good) -- which are mirrors of each other. When you marry on earth, you and your spouse's spirits marry in the world of the spirit, in parallel. The Gnostics also believed that salvation comes through knowledge (gnosis), not through faith or through Jesus' sacrifice, because through knowledge you transcend the world of the flesh. However, Jesus brought knowledge to his disciples, and was part of the Fullness, so he's a good guy and the agent of salvation.

    The Gospel of Thomas is a Gnostic gospel, and it shares a source with the synoptic Gospel of Luke, so you will find many of the same parables in both.

    I took a class on Gnosticism in college -- I think it's absolutely fascinating.

    I'll stop here, or else I could go on forever. Say...I wonder if I could study Gnosticism at Notre Dame...

    Would it be too much trouble for you to re-scan or list the words on the "tree of death" page?

By Spider on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 01:28 pm:

    PS. I am confused by their inclusion of pantheism in the list of enemies, or maybe they didn't explain it clearly enough to show why it's so wrong. (Maybe strict pantheism considers evil part of God?)

    In the liturgy of the Mass we talk about God, "from whom all good things come." St. Augustine talks about "ontological good" -- intrinsic perfection that everything which exists possesses, by virtue of its existence.

    Doesn't the Bible say somewhere that God is found even under the stones and within wood?

    It's in the Gospel of Thomas, anyway...

    (77) Jesus said, "It is I who am the light which is above them all. It is I who am the all. From me did the all come forth, and unto me did the all extend. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

By Spider on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 01:52 pm:

    And if you're REALLY curious, here's one Gnostic creation myth that tells the story from Adam to Cain and Abel:

    The Archons are aka the Rulers, the Entirety, the Fullness, the Incorruptibility, etc.

    Every creation text tells a slightly different story, and there are pagan, Jewish, and Christian forms of this text isn't definitive. I mean, there's no Gnostic canon or anything.

    God, I love this stuff. Seriously, I think I may have rediscovered my direction in life.

    Notre Dame requires GREs, though!@ Ugh!!

By Nate on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 02:03 pm:

    i think i'm gnostic.


By wisper on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 02:18 pm:

    of course geoshities has to jam on me now.
    i'll put up the re-scans a.s.a.p!

    anything for my Spidey :)

    i found the book in a big box sitting on the curb. It was the craziest mess of books. It was like a sad story of disillusionment in a box. Both creepy and sad. This person was cleaning house AND mind. It had all manner of self-help titles, spiritual guides, and kid's schoolwork. Aside from the catholic texbook, i also fished out a 1980 edition of 'Our Bodies, Ourselves', which i never read, but can't bring myself to throw out because it's so BIG. I just wanted to see what it was all about.

By Spider on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 02:19 pm:

By Spider on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 02:20 pm:

    Thanks, Wisper!

By wisper on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 02:35 pm:

    "PS. I am confused by their inclusion of pantheism in the list of enemies"

    because it doesn't seperate god from everthing else.
    Catholicism really holds to the splitting up of everything else and god. And god and the trinity. And god and jesus. It says pantheism is wrong because even though god made everything, and is within everything, he still isn't physically everything in creation. God and all of creation aren't one huge linked thing.
    Like hinduism and buddhism do. In a way.

    book says:
    "A panthiest looks at a flower and says that the flower is part of god. We look at a flower and know that god is intimately within it but that he is also distict from it.
    God is an infinitely pure and simple being. There can be no parts, no material in him."

    facinating, this stuff.
    i always wanted to take theology.

By wisper on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 02:57 pm:

    well, the new scans are up now, i think.
    treeodeathbig and treeodeathbbig.
    I made them bigger but depending on your browser settings it might just shink them anyway, or crash. I hope not.
    the internet's low-rez + 1950s tiny tiny text is playing hell.

By semillama on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 04:24 pm:

    The tree of death is cool - I think Spider should get it tattooed across her back.

    It's a lot simpler than the Subgenius Tree of Life though. I'll try to find a picture of that.

By Spider on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 04:33 pm:

    Firewater's "The Ponzi Scheme" has an album liner illustration of the way that prayers and indulgences pass among Earth, Purgatory, and was a neat drawing; I wish I could scan it. And yeah, I guess it is a Ponzi scheme.

    I always thought if I had to get a tattoo, I'd get a Sacred Heart on my back over my left side. This one's animated!

By wisper on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 06:11 pm:

    did the other scans work?
    must i list the words?
    if it didn't, i could even make it a PDF file, if yer into all that kinky Acrobat shit.

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