men What are you afraid of?: men

By Cat on Saturday, September 2, 2000 - 01:52 am:

    My phone rang last night and at the other end there was just the breath of the listener. And it brought it all back.

    The last two years have been life-changing for me. Two very wrong men came into my arena. One was invited and the other forced his way in.

    The forced entry was a stalker who followed me for a year, off and on as his medication wavered. He's in a correctional facility now. Hopefully he's having his brain corrected so he doesn't think he's married to complete strangers.

    I wasn't the only female he chose to live out his complex warped fantasies on. But I was the one he was "married" to. There must be something about me that screams "wife", because that brings me to my invited gladiator.

    Mike was a lot of things I thought I wanted. I was a lot of things he own. After six months, he proposed. I said no. It went downhill after that.

    I know my psychology and I should have seen him coming: the resentment over my job, the dislike of my commitment to family and friends, the "suggestions" about what I wear, the jealousy of any man who looked at me, his dislike of any sexual positions where he wasn't dominant.

    I spent a year trying to get out without hurting him. In the end, I got out when he hurt me physically. Just one hit was enough.

    I told myself I would take a break from men, to reassess and revaluate. I think the truth is I'm just too scared (or maybe scarred) now. Can you find a way back to innocence, or is it too late?

By dave. on Saturday, September 2, 2000 - 02:42 am:

    ummm, why is it that fucked guys like this have no problem finding women. there are stable, lonely guys out there who would never abuse you that never get a chance, but you "hot" chicks are always looking for the dangerous type. you want the excitement. well, i say tough shit. i've pined over women like you back in my youth. i've heard all about and watched you all struggle with total assholes. tough shit. your over-inflated ego took you where you shouldn't have gone. get over it. learn from it.

By Cat on Saturday, September 2, 2000 - 05:57 am:

    So it's all my fault for choosing the wrong guy? Thanks, that helps a lot.

    Dave, are you sure you're not just bringing a whole cooler full of your own rejections/bias whatever to the party?

    My stalker chose me, we never dated, he just picked me out of a catalogue or something (I still don't know why and probably he doesn't either).

    Believe me, I've tormented myself endlessly with wondering whether my shirt was too tight the day he first saw me, or if I somehow flirted with him somewhere (I used to talk to people everywhere, in shops, airports wherever).

    Mike attracted me exactly because I thought he was so stable and emotionally strong. Nothing glamourous, good looking or exciting about him, he was just an ordinary bloke. The only thing dangerous about him was his right fist.

    Shit I wish I'd never posted this whole thing.

By dave on Saturday, September 2, 2000 - 10:49 am:

    me too.

By agatha on Saturday, September 2, 2000 - 10:50 am:

    dave gets ugly when he drinks too much beer. i know how you feel, cat. i am a stalker magnet. you didn't do anything wrong.

By Hal on Saturday, September 2, 2000 - 01:45 pm:

    I understand both sides of this horrid argument... I unfourtunatly fall into that "lonely why do all the nice good looking women go out with abusive ego driven assholes," and yet also I've been the after affect of the obsession.

    I'm sure a couple of you have read about Marcy on Sorabji at one time or another. I had a problem with her Ex who wouldn't go away, he figured that after two years of dating her he owned her. Hell I cared about her so much that when he caught her between a rock and a hard place in making her choose me or him, I realizing that it would hurt her either way told her to not worry about me, I will step aside gracefully and let him win. That I loved her to much to see her hurt so I let her go. To make a long story short, she saw what I had done and dumped his ass for good.

    Anyway, Cat I understand your hesitance and deserving mistrust of men, its easy to see why you would, just look at it from this angle. "You have been treated bad in the past, you know the signs, there are men out there who would treat you like a princess everyday of their lives if given the chance, like I do for Marcy." Find one of those, not easy I know, but now from exp. you know the signs of the domonating and possesive. Avoid that and seek one who will stand up to you but will worship you as well.

    As a whole, don't fear men in general, fear men as individuals. We all aren't self-centered losers, some want just as much love as we are willing to give which is a hellova lot.

By crimson on Saturday, September 2, 2000 - 04:05 pm:

    cat, anybody who's been stalked can certainly relate to your post. i've been through that bullshit, & all the fancy blame-the-victim crap in the world doesn't make it one iota less terrifying. i sympathize w/ you. just remember, stalker or not, you don't have to put up w/ bullshit from men. not now & not ever. however, these situations are, like most unpleasant events, learning experiences. it's hard as hell to get a really determined stalker off your ass. believe me, i know. but for the other stuff, i feel that many women feel such a need to hook up w/ men that they'll take any old so-&-so that comes slithering up, which is a pity. i've seen far too many women sacrifice themselves in the name of snagging a maaaaaaan...what crap. conversely, i've seen far too many of my male friends sell their souls for the dubious pleasure of snuggling up w/ some vapid trophy bitch--they usually end up knocking up said trophy bitch & spend the rest of their pathetic lives trying to rationalize their hellish, miserable existence.

    if i were young & single, i think i'd probably fucking well stay that way & enjoy my life. i have a very happy marriage, but it's extremely unconventional, & i doubt i could ever be happy w/ some average, ho-hum, status-quo joe. why do folks who have nice lives w/ plenty of freedom jeopardize everything by hooking up w/ morons? i don't get it. people have all this freedom, & they've got to throw it all away in the name of "romance". puh-leeeze. carve out a significant chunk of time for yourself (i'm talking about years, not months) & don't share it w/ ANYBODY. it's yours. it's your freedom & your liberty. wasting it on a relationship is usually like casting pearls before swine.

By Bell_jar on Saturday, September 2, 2000 - 05:50 pm:

    ahhh. crimson i think you're on to something.

    i bow to the wise one.

By The Dinner Lady on Saturday, September 2, 2000 - 08:57 pm:

    This is so good to read. I just found out my ex is probably getting married this weekend. We lived together for 2 years together for 3. It wasn't bad, it was just never right. He had no goals or ambitions. He made me less of a person as I tried be be as small as he wanted me to be. Still, we loved each other and I wish he wasn't getting married, instead I wish he was sitting at home getting drunk and telling people how he dumped the best thing ever in his life ME. Ah well.

    As for stalking, christ, don't blame yourself, these people are nut jobs! It's not your fault that some psycho stalked you! As for bad ex beaus, well I would be quite suspicious of anyone who had never had a shitty relationship or gone out with someone who was wrong for them. The important part is you are no longer with the bad man and you will not go with someone like that again in the future I hope.

    Open letter to all boys who say 'all girls like the dangerous types while nice guys like me never get a date': Whatever. Not like my phone is ringing off the hook with nice guys. It's the losers that stick to me like old gum. What I wouldn't do fer someone ready to treat me like I deserve... Then again, maybe by some standards I'm not 'hot' enough for someone really nice? All the really nice men I know date women who treat them horribly.

By Hal on Saturday, September 2, 2000 - 09:57 pm:

    M'Lady, I'm sure by my standards, as well as the standars of a few gentlemen I choose to call friends. You would fall far beyond the range of hot into the incinerating pile...

    Dear, I would like to extend my apologuise in making an above statement. Yes, I have to make the cliche' 'all girls like the dangerous types while nice guys like me never get a date...' And I now realize how wrong I was... Yes it is true, but only at the bane to the persistense and the testicle fortitude for a "quite" nice-guy to open his mouth once in a while and speak up, and let yon' self be known... Other wise how are they to know whether your a nice guy or a creep... I told Marcy I liked her, treated her like a princess from day one, and I haven't regretted a moment of it...

    Guys, step up, don't sit on your ass waiting for them to come to you... It ain't gonna happen. Go to them... Yeah you'll get shot down, learn to deal with it even the losers get that one, but at least with us quite nice-guy types, hopefully not as often.

By Antigone on Sunday, September 3, 2000 - 02:25 am:

    "Can you find a way back to innocence?"


    Just say to yourself, over and over, "Yes."

    When you find yourself saying it without even trying, then innocence has come home.

By Zephyr on Sunday, September 3, 2000 - 02:37 am:

    Cat, I'm very sorry that you had to go through that kinda crap.


    same to any and everyone else.

    i do depart now.

    until next time.

By Cat on Sunday, September 3, 2000 - 04:23 am:

    Thanks everyone...I needed to hear some of that. It's been a tough weekend with this crap just creeping up around the corner to find me. I think, the harder you try to run from the things that scare you, the more they find you when you're weakest.

    And Hal, you're right about nice guys never having the guts to ask women out. I never used to turn down dates while I was single, cause I know how much guts it takes to make the first move. Unfortunately, it's usually the assholes that come a-calling.

    Maybe the only alternative is for me to ask men out...that way I'm in control. Or maybe I could just revert to my childhood intentions of becoming a nun.

    I love what Crimson said about sucking up the joy of being single. I just want to make sure it's a choice I'm actually making, not one forced on me by my fears.

    Antigone, unfortunately, just saying "yes" is not enough. It would only be a false mindset that would crumble with the next prank phone call or possessive guy trying to tell me what to do.

    Anyway, I'm glad this shit happened to me. Hard to explain, but it has made me tougher and more realistic in my attitude to men - less like a bloody little romantic prom queen. I just wish the lesson hadn't come at such a high price.

By Cat on Sunday, September 3, 2000 - 04:29 am:

    "As for bad ex beaus, well I would be quite suspicious of anyone who had never had a shitty relationship or gone out with someone who was wrong for them."

    I'm really glad you said that Dinner Lady... you're soo right, I ain't Robinson Crusoe here.

By Antigone on Sunday, September 3, 2000 - 10:41 am:

    It doesn't have to be a false mindset. First, make your acceptance of the world flexible. That way it won't be brittle and crumble. Second, make your acceptance of the world fast and accurate. Don't let bad events bash up against you. Get out of the way!

    I guess what I'm trying to say is don't close off. So often when I hear people say they're becoming more realistic all I see is them becoming more cynical. But a cynic doesn't actually see the world. You'd just be trading in your rose colored glasses for dark shades.

    Part of saying yes is seeing the world as it really is and accepting it. To see the world you must be accurate and dispassionate. However, the acceptance can take any form you like: optimism, sad resignation, fatalistic, joyous, dispassionate.

By Hal on Sunday, September 3, 2000 - 07:56 pm:

    Antigone is right in his own sort of way... And I compleatly understand the idea of trading in the rose colored glasses for the dark shades... But you don't necissarily have to see the world as it is to accept it... You just have to accept what happens, whether or not you realize that, "that is the world we live in and there is nothing you can do to change it."

By dave. on Sunday, September 3, 2000 - 09:33 pm:

    i'd like to retract my statements up there. not because i think they're wrong (they may be), but because they don't belong in this thread. i need to read more thoroughly before i spew my crap at everyone.

    or not. i figure nobody really gives a shit about my opinions. maybe i'm wrong. (my theme song.)

By Sorabji. on Sunday, September 3, 2000 - 09:57 pm:

    ah, go fuck yourself

By dave. on Sunday, September 3, 2000 - 10:01 pm:

    sure thing, bitch.

    go on irc. asshole.

By blindswine on Sunday, September 3, 2000 - 11:00 pm:

    i'm off to the stop 'n'go.

    beer, cigarettes, condoms, and peanut butter.

    how many boxes of tampons do you two vaginal motherfuckers need this time?

By Sorabji on Sunday, September 3, 2000 - 11:10 pm:

    i'm going out for the case of anal meats.

By dave. on Sunday, September 3, 2000 - 11:10 pm:

    gimme a couple and pick me up a 6-pack of moose drool.

By Antigone on Monday, September 4, 2000 - 02:17 am:

    ...and a pack of wolf nipple chips...

By The Dinner Lady on Monday, September 4, 2000 - 02:34 am:

    Hal, You know, you're right. Nice boys don't speak up and that stinks! And you know, even though I am really pretty outgoing I know I can be a total freak when it comes to dates. Scared! As a M.O., I just try to stand in their way or something and be like 'Uh, hi, if you wanted to ask me on a date or talk to me or something I'm here' which is so dorky.

    This weekend I went out dancing with my friend, she goes to this club here all the time and it's sort of fun. But you know, I always see guys there on their own. They come in alone, drink a beer alone, watch people dance alone, go home alone. It's sad! But then it feels like talking to these people gets so loaded. Like as if just talking to them might get me in for more than I want. Probably exaggerating it in my mind. Such a meat market though. It's a very fucked up time you know when people will post to web boards and chat w/ strangers and yet people right in front of them are like 'eek!' and you never say a word.

    I really do think that people spend a lot of time dating folks who make them miserable until they learn to do otherwise. Some of you learn so fast and I am so jealous (and others never learn). I dig too what both Crimson and Antigone have added about singleness and being realistic. I know for me suddenly I've been just thinking about the kind of pressure I've put exes under to be perfect or get out, or picking people who were not right for me and then suffering while it didn't work out. In some ways it is hard to accept a romantic partner's flaws (for me anyway) in a different way than a friend, but they are just people, you know.

    Damn, I'm feeling all grown up now.

By dave. on Monday, September 4, 2000 - 04:49 am:

    can i borrow twenty bucks?

By semillama on Monday, September 4, 2000 - 02:38 pm:

    I finally figured out my problem with women a couple years ago. And being one of the proverbial "nice single guys who are constatnly passed over for jerks" I do say this with a straight face, being serious:
    I was raised by feminist parents, I ended up with such a respect for women at an early age that I now probably have too much of it for my own good. What has stopped me from walking up to women I hven't meet before in social settings and try to talk to them is this loud voice in my head saying "She gets enough of that from a lot of dumb ass guys. She probably doesn't need another one doing the same." There is no counter voice in the head that should say "you're different from most asshole guys, so go talk to her."

    Plus, I am utterly incapable of breaking the ice, no matter what the situation. Every single time I have tried it, I fail miserably in some way, so I just stopped trying. If it can't be fixed, move on, I feel.

    I know this has probably cost me a lot of opportunities, but what can you do? I can't seem to get over the whole respect issue as it relates to my dating life. I'm definitely the type of guy who needs friends to set him up. I sort of don't believe anyone ever does that now.

    I'll shut up now, that didn't add anything.

By Antigone on Monday, September 4, 2000 - 05:18 pm:

    Ya know, sem, I had your whole post, almost word for word, written out a couple of days ago.

    I didn't post it.

    Not sure why.

By Cat on Monday, September 4, 2000 - 05:33 pm:

    But this is the problem. Blokes like Sem and Anti sit on their butts, afraid to take chances. And they're the very men you want to approach you.

    However, if they approached you that wouldn't make them the men you wanted to approach you. Get it? It's the Catch 22 of dating.

    The only alternative for women is to buy a big rope and practice on a few calves...then get out there and lassoo the blokes who are standing in the corner, hogtie 'em and drag 'em back to your swag and do bad things to 'em.

By R.C. on Monday, September 4, 2000 - 07:15 pm:

    LOL! Hey Cat -- s'nice to know I'm not the only one who resorts to rope tricks.

    "Tie him up & bring him to my tent!" was my motto for a while/back in the day. Worked like a charm for meeting the shy-guy types. You had to make sure they were within earshot when you said it. And once they stop laughing & blushing/they're usually up for a conversation.

    Of course/you can only use a line like that in public places when you've got pals around. Maybe I
    was just lucky/but I managed not to toss off that line to any closet-psychos.

    Most mature women (vs. chicken-heads & dizzy bitches) WANT the nice/kind/reliable guy. Alpha males & bad boy types are something you shd outgrow by the time you reach yr late 20's. "Been there/done that/don't need to do it again." But the fact that a guy is nice shdn't automatically mean the woman has to make the 1st move.

    Sem/you say you're patently incapable of breaking the ice -- well, why? Obviously you can talk to the new research assistant/or dig-helper/or whatever you call the rock-hunting minons in yr profession. I'm sure when a new face shows up in an academic or workplace setting where you'll be required to interact w/this female/you have no trouble walking up & introducing yrself. Why is it any different in a bar/or waiting on line for movie tkts.?

    Why do men have to make this 1st meeting shit so hard? It's not like you have to walk up to the most gorgeous girl in the room & say something.
    The decent-looking girl standing at the bar w/her 2 friends/the one who keeps looking over at you/ is hoping you'll walk over & say hello. So why don't you?

    If you can be chatty w/the waitress or the bank teller/it shdn't be any harder to chat up a girl in a coffee shop or a bar.

    It doesn't have to be Oscar-caliber dialogue. Just a casual compliment on something she's wearing -- "I like your earrings. Where'd you get them?" -- is enough to start the ball rolling.

    It's really not that hard, fellas.

    And Happy Labor Day, everyone!

By The Dinner Lady on Monday, September 4, 2000 - 08:55 pm:

    All this meeting and talking to strangers thing is a big friggin pain in the butt. Probably because we all allow it to become far larger in our minds than it really is. I mean, if the person is dreamy and you want to talk to them and they are an ass well, I guess they weren't so dreamy then, eh? And if they are cool, well that should be cool, shouldn't it?

    Still, I feel like if I am the one who does the aggressing, meaning if I ask the boy to do something or I call them etc. it never goes well. They usually get all weaselly and then since they didn't respond to my first overture I back off entirely and am peeved that it didn't work.

    Case in point (yes, maybe some of you remember this rant?) the guy who lives an hour away. I knew him for 2 years and he wasn't just foxy he was also really really cool and we really got along well. Every month or 2 he'd drive an hour to come here and buy me dinner and tell his life story. Fab conversation, lots of laffs, but NO ROMANCE. Finally AFTER 2 YEARS of trying to figure it out I say point blank 'So are we ever gonna have a *real* date?' and he reads me that tired line called 'Oh I once had my heart broken (just before I met him 2 years ago) and now I just don't know what I can feel for someone/now is not a good time for me to be in a relationship because I need to focus on my work....' Well groovy man, but if that is the case, why are you driving an hour to buy me dinner and flirt with me every month or so? Other platonic male friends don't buy me meals and hold doors open and drive hours to see me.

    This is not a new thing for me, guys I lurve pulling this 'I want to do everything but touch you routine.' I'm not a dawg! I feel like if I don't say something I'll never get an answer and when I do I still don't have an answer (he alluded to the fact he might get a job near here in the next few months and that would change things - whatever). I just hate taking initiative and getting shot down, it just seems to be the rule and never the exception.

    Meanwhile on fabulous ass nite (see other post) I had 2 boys make googy eyes at me who are friends of mine, both of who I'm not physically attracted to and one of who is a former boss and professional contact. It's the ones that I just find physically unappealing that always want me. That stinks too. But at least I don't do things to lead these people on.

By Hal on Tuesday, September 5, 2000 - 12:46 am:

    Life always seems to creep up and nip ya' in the ass that way doesn't it... Damn, I need a beer.

By Isolde on Tuesday, September 5, 2000 - 12:38 pm:

    It does. I don't have a tent. What do I say?

By patrick on Tuesday, September 5, 2000 - 01:00 pm:

    wow he spoke

    cat, i had a stalker for a brief while, it was limited to strange phone addition my wife was nearly raped.

    i understand how you feel. you ask yourself over and over why they had to violate you,take that away from you. People steal from others and affect other people in such violent and dramatic ways...nevermind the damage he did to my wife, but to me as well......a bat to some knee caps still couldn't subside the's never fair. But ultimately, they only take what you wish to give them.

    i've noticed something with a handful of friends, and I've heard several girlfriends mention a type of behavior seemingly more prevalent in men my age.

    Is it generational or otherwise?

    Men who can be incredibly sensitive, sweet, respectful, thoughtful, loving, protective, and masculine just enough for her pleasure, but not too male......


    from time to time, evil is unleashed.......selfish, bratty, and downright vicious come to mind.

    Mean, sometimes unprompted or with little provocation...certainly not warranting the emotional explosion.

    I am guilty of this behavior, and I have heard from a few girlfriends who have experienced boyfriends like this.

    I often advise that perhaps a tough, bitch approach remedy the sitaution

    "you are being a brat little ass (punch!) now sit down and stop barking (punch!)"

    but i know if i were being told this, or dealt with in this way, it wouldn't work.

    I was spoiled as a kid, but I don't think this is a direct result of that. I think there is more.

    Usually the emotions, aggressive and such taper off in time, we realize how evil we were being and crawl , low!!!

    A few of the guys in these situations grew up without father figures...or in a limited sense.

    Such as myself......

    do you know any men like this?

    does this sound familiar?

    am I on to something or is this just how it looks from my window?

    Rhi, i'd like your expertise on this, and nate, as always i look forward to your rhetoric on it.

By Nate on Tuesday, September 5, 2000 - 01:15 pm:

    i had a strong father figure.

    i dunno. i rarely get angry, and when i do i can't stay angry. i think i hold happiness above anything else.

    the only time i have to pull the belt off is when the bitch won't do the house work.


    i mean, i'm at work all day and what does she do? make messes. she should be cleaning the shit up.

    and then she gets all pissy because the house is a mess.

    and if i mention that she should clean a little, she starts going on about how i make her seem worthless because i work all day and then am critical of the state of the house.

    but you see, i'm not really critical of the state of the house. i'm critical of her being critical about the state of the house.

    because the last thing i want to hear when i get home from work is someone bitching about how dirty the house is.

    as if i'm supposed to end a 14 hour day with 5 hours of cleaning.

    i mean, really, as if it would be too hard to schedule a little dusting into a full day of oprah and getting fat on the couch.

    so off comes the belt.

By patrick on Tuesday, September 5, 2000 - 01:51 pm:

    my half does the "i don't do dishes" thing going on. The current apartment not having a dishwasher, this was proclaimed upon move in.

    About 2 weeks ago, i proclaimed "I don't do cat boxes"

    When she's not looking I secretly encourage the little ones to pee on her clothes, on the floor, that she refuses to pick up.

    It's working......

    on the whole, I cook and clean more than she. She does her fair share about 60% of the time. She makes a little more money than I, so I let it slide most of the time.

    I don't stay angry for long either, and after the fact its always "what the fuck was i thinking"....

By Nate on Tuesday, September 5, 2000 - 03:02 pm:

    ah shit, if i have to explain the whole no dishwasher on a septic tank thing one more time i'll crack. dishes are a sticking point.

    i make a lot more money than she does. she doesn't work. but i don't even think of it in money, i think of it in time. I spend X hours away from the house in order to buy us food, pay our mortgage, buy us clothes and toys and beer and gas and all that other stuff that we enjoy. I think it is fair that she spend X hours with the house work before we start spliting stuff up.

    but no, somehow that invalidates her. i get a whole lecture about traditional gender roles. fucking psych degree. then i remind her that if she could get a job that would maintain our standard of living, i'd gladly change places with her. then i get the lecture about how i don't think she's worth as much because i bring in the money instead of her.

    whatever. women are the sticking point between mankind and paradise.

    it's really not the problem i make it out to be. probably because i am a sucker for pussy.

    of course, she's a sucker for sushi.

    i should start withholding.

By R.C. on Tuesday, September 5, 2000 - 03:05 pm:

    Nate - how come yr fiancee doesn't have a job?
    I can't see you going for the hausefrau type.

    Y'all don't have any kids yet, right?

    How did she support herself before she moved in w/you?

    If she's really a kept woman in the traditional sense/then hell yeah she shd be doing the housework. I wd LOVE to stay home all day & write & cook great meals & work out/knowing that someone else taking care of the bills.

    But how much of a mess can 1 woman make anyway?

By Trace on Tuesday, September 5, 2000 - 03:06 pm:

    That's why we use styrofoam plates.

By patrick on Tuesday, September 5, 2000 - 03:18 pm:

    ....interesting, mine has as psyche degree too....


    ...your argument makes perfect sense...

By Isolde on Tuesday, September 5, 2000 - 03:33 pm:

    It sounds like she's not a Hausfrau, and that's the problem...Whatever. If I wasn't working, I would be more than willing to do my share of the housework and more...of course, I prefer working to doing housework, so one can see the inherent problem.

By Nate on Tuesday, September 5, 2000 - 03:35 pm:

    we must be the "fixer upper" psyches that brings these women like iron filings to magnets.

By Tired on Tuesday, September 5, 2000 - 03:56 pm:

    jesus, I thought Nate was kidding on the first post. . . well, I guess he was kidding about the belt, but really, he's the last person I'd envision having an "I-work-all-day-and-you-can't-dust-the-counter" argument. Or maybe this is an extended multiple-post gag?

By J on Tuesday, September 5, 2000 - 04:04 pm:

    If she isn't working,that is pretty bad that she won't do any housework,wtf,does she just think you look forward to coming home to dirty dishes and a house that needs dusting? She might be good for nookie,but she sounds lazy,and that psych degree must help her play the head games when you call her on it.I'm glad you bought your house before you married.

By patrick on Tuesday, September 5, 2000 - 04:08 pm:


    she called your girl lazy nate

By Cat on Tuesday, September 5, 2000 - 05:39 pm:

    Don't tell anyone this, but I would secretly adore to be a, gardening, pottering around doing up antique furniture (sigh).

    But because I earn more than most men I date, it's not likely to ever happen. I'll be a slave to a desk forever probably.

    I think the only thing I'd find hard is being financially dependent on someone. It would suck having to actually justify why you spent $400 on lingerie or whatever.

    p.s. Nate - I've got a dishwasher and I'm on a septic tank. No probs with the grease trap. But all my grey water (shower, sinks, dishwater) gets recycled out onto the garden...maybe that makes a difference?

By Mavis on Tuesday, September 5, 2000 - 06:01 pm:

    wow, cat! how does your greywater get out there?

    i have a pretty wicked domestic streak myself.
    it's funny, i don't think a lot of people would guess the about me, given my feisty nature and all the asskicking and such.....

By Cat on Tuesday, September 5, 2000 - 06:25 pm:

    <Earth Mother mode on>

    It's the coolest system...and the secret to my stunning gardenias and bloody huge tomatoes.

    I just have this enviro system...(remember I live on acreage) splits the grey water and sewage the grey water goes to a filtration tank then out to the garden...and the sewage goes to the septic.

    <Earth Mother mode off>

By Mavis on Tuesday, September 5, 2000 - 06:38 pm:

    that's incredible cat!

By crimson on Tuesday, September 5, 2000 - 07:05 pm:

    it IS incredible.

    i've never had the slightest hint of a domestic streak. ever. i don't know why. doing housework, gardening, any of that stuff just turns me off in the extreme. the phrase "earth mother" in itself absolutely gives me the willies. yet, i have a vague admiration for people who can actually pull it off. i don't do housework, grow plants, any of that girly shit. bleh.

    but it almost makes me wish i had a wife, so she could do some of that strange domestic crap around the house while i watched from a considerable distance.

By semillama on Tuesday, September 5, 2000 - 08:29 pm:

    IF it's just the two of you in a house (generic two - not referring to specific people here), then cleaning up after yourself shouldn't have to be such a hassle. You may have to set up cleaning schedules, though - I often make every other saturday my manic house cleaning day.

    in answer to R.C.'s query above, i don't know why it's easier to talk to female coworkers or what not, but actually, I have something of a hard time making casual conversation right off the bat there as well. Come to think of it, in just about every situation where I deal with women about my age and I find attractive, I just blank. that's why it's so hard to break the ice. I can come up with the "like your earrings" bit, but after that, I just can't sustain a conversation, I seriously go blank and freeze up, and the silence gets uncomfortable, and by then, it's over, the woman has judged me insufficient, and I go back to sitting in the corner, even less likely to to talk to another woman, and then I just go home, feeling miserable.
    The thing with work situations is that you will see the person again and again on a regular basis, so gradually I become comfortable enought to talk to them. It's then that i hear about the fiancee/boyfriend/crush/whatever.

    So, fuck it. I'm pretty tired of having my heart toyed with. I give up. Obviously, I was not meant to be with anyone.

By Daniel ssss you figure what the ssss stands for on Tuesday, September 5, 2000 - 09:10 pm:

    Cat, my water goes one way and my shit another too. And it is illegal to have a split sytstem like this and yours in this county and in this state.

    Can you believe it? Idiots those bureaucrats, and they keep the plumbers and septic tank people in business. And waste resources by contaminating dishwater with crap.

    Actually, crap is quite innocuous too, if composted properly, which takes about a year. It's cities and over population and congestion and legislative boondoggles which create septic systems. Pun intended.

    Don't get me going on crap handling. (This is the right thread isn't it?)

    I wanted to put a composting toilet in at a lake house, a house that actually was anchored into and sat upon a large rock: i.e, no where for a septic system. The Department of Natural Resources said I had to put in a pump, pump the shit uphill, to dirt in a forest land, above a spring, and let it filter back down over the solid damn rock into the run-off headed for the crystal clear spring fed lake.

    I finally gave up trying to buy the place after months of wrangling with the DNR.

    Yeah, so may be old lovers would be better in grey water, or in a macerator aerator septic system?


By R.C. on Tuesday, September 5, 2000 - 10:19 pm:

    I think Nate shd just get a damn dishwasher & run the hose out to the garden or in back of the house. You can use castille soap in dishwashers --it's enviro-friendly & biodegradable. And cheap.

    There -- the dirty dishes problem is Solved!

    As for the rest of the domestic chores/methinks yr girl needs a serious talking to. Housework is NOT an imposition on or devaluation of someone who isn't out there meeting the man every day to earn a paycheck. If the shoe were on the other foot/I bet she'd expect you to do the household chores. I hate cleaning too/but I'd have no problem doing it if I didn't have to be a wage slave.

    [But I *truly* cdn't stand not having $$ of my own that I didn't have to ask anyone for or answer to anyone abt.]

    Sem, darling/methinks you are terminally shy/until you get a few beers in you. :) But are you cool w/the woman being the aggressor? Or do you freak out when a female shows interest in you? And what abt attention from an older women?

    Ya can't have it both ways, man. Ya can't be the Shy Guy AND be terrified of a woman who makes the 1st move/or you'll never get a girl!

    ARRRGH! This is giving me bad flashbacks to The Hungarian Prince/who was here last weekend to return my finally-fixed computer to me. Which runs like a charm w/the new hardrive he installed. Now/my baby's as fast as a cockroach in the projects!

    Altho' I've got 4 yrs. worth of inaccessible stuff on the old hardrive/which he screwed uproyally. He said it's one big DOS file now becuz the partitioning is all fucked up & he refuses to touch it again. But hey -- I got Windows 98/MS Office 2000/Adobe Acrobat 4.0/Adobe Photoshop 5.5 -- which is prolly too hard for me to ever learn/ - so I can cancel AOL!/some shit called Diskeeper 5.0/MS Web Publishing Wizard 1.6/Paintshop Pro 6.0/& a bunch of other shit I haven no clue what to do with/plus a new 56k modem & a cool black keyboard. All for $130!

    I offered him $150 but he said that was too much. I asked him to name what he thought wd be a fair price/but he demurred & kept hemming & hawing abt how this is just something he does as a sideline to help out his friends/& he never knows how much he shd charge/so whatever I thought was fair wd be fine...

    Izzat not charming? Downright chivalrous even? Shit/I've spent more than $130 on bar tabs in a single week! I cd've gotten away w/only paying him $100/but I don't believe in exploiting friends.

    And I sat there/watching him drink my Margaritas from one of my killer martini glasses & munch on the crab cakes I made for Allen's dinner party/& I was oh-so-adult abt it. Completely refrained from asking him "So, why did you never respond to that letter I wrote you/you bearing my soul abt how much I dig you & how terrifying it was for this confirmed Ice Princess to actually feel something for someone again after so long -- esp. someone so young & White & totally different from me?"

    Nononono -- I was a good girl/I was. Never laid a lip or a finger on him. Never put him on the spot.

    *sigh* But I've never been this crushed out over ANYONE for this long! FUCK!!! It's like being 15 all over again/but w/out the great body & the sense of wonderment & all that other cool stuff that goes w/being young.

    And I still don't see *how* he can be so maddeningly oblivious to all the unspoken shit in the air btwn us!! What *is* it w/younguns?!

    But I guess when it's unrequited/there's nothing to be said...

    Fuck this -- I need a nice tall drink & some cinematherapy!

    But Sem -- if you're ever in Sarasota/I'd love to play yr girlfriend-for-the-weekend. I'd be proud to have a May-December fling w/a guy as sweet & chamring & funny & smart as you are.

    Altho' you'd prolly run screaming from the room the minute I tried to kiss you...

By Isolde on Wednesday, September 6, 2000 - 12:01 am:

    Sem? Will you be my boyfriend?

By Pez on Wednesday, September 6, 2000 - 01:02 am:

    i hate having a septic tank.

    a couple of times, it overfilled and flooded the downstairs bathroom while i was taking a shower.

    it was messy and i had foot troubles for a while afterwards.

    recycling grey water is a good idea, but not here. i think it's illegal b/c everyone drinks groundwater around here. then again, i think what's in the septic tanks is worse.

    they're starting to build apartments a mile from my house. that means in two years they'll want to come out here.

    where's a good old fairy godmother when you need one?

By Isolde on Wednesday, September 6, 2000 - 09:24 am:

    My septic tank never overflows. It is a very well-behaved tank.

By Nate on Wednesday, September 6, 2000 - 09:58 am:

    If you pump your septic responsibly, you shouldn't have shit fill your shower.

    my grey water was illegally dumping into the creek when i bought the house. my section of creek is protected trout spawning beds, and all my property drains to the creek.

By Dougie on Wednesday, September 6, 2000 - 10:10 am:

    Damn, you got a trout stream in back? My idea of heaven. Please tell me you fly fish.

By Nate on Wednesday, September 6, 2000 - 10:46 am:

    well, not in my back yard. for the same reason as why it is illegal to dump the grey water.

By Czarina on Wednesday, September 6, 2000 - 10:51 am:

    Pez,unfortunately,I got a real visual on your foot problem,I'd never be able to look you in the eye,without first[subconsciously]taking a peek at your feet.Did you shield them from the eyes of small children?[Hopefully,my imagination was worse than your actual foot problem]

By Dougie on Wednesday, September 6, 2000 - 10:55 am:

    Ouch, that's rough. Cutthroats or rainbows? I usually make a yearly trek out to Montana or Wyoming to fish and camp.

By Pez on Wednesday, September 6, 2000 - 11:22 am:

    it wasn't the shower that flooded. it raised about a foot above the rest of the floor.

    the septic tank water flooded around the toilet. apparently there was a plugged-up-pipe in the septic system that had to be removed. the lawn is still recovering.

    we never had anyproblems until about a year ago, and now it's just fine.

    the only foot troubles were a direct result of the "watering". they continued to grow until the only place where i can get any decent shoes anymore is nordstrom rack.

    i hate the rack. overpriced, odd-fitting items.

    i should learn how to cobble.

By Nate on Wednesday, September 6, 2000 - 11:24 am:

    you have huge feet, pez?

    i think they're rainbows. i haven't been closer than about 30' to any of them. i feed them bread from my back deck.

By Czarina on Wednesday, September 6, 2000 - 11:37 am:

    Theres something kinda erotic about a cobbler---
    oh no,I think I was thinking of hobbles.
    But now I'm more intrigued about your feet,do you mean they now require odd fitting coverings?

By Pez on Wednesday, September 6, 2000 - 11:45 am:

    no, it's just that nobody has pretty shoes that are in my size. my feet are too long and skinny.

    i was going to get a pair of doc martens yesterday. i found a cool pair of funky brown mary janes. but they don't make girls shoes in a size eleven.

    i got a pair of nikes two days ago on clearance for $7. size 12. fits perfectly except they pooch on the sides. like i need a reminder that i have narrow feet.

    i wish i could work barefoot, but that sorta defeats the purpose of selling shoes for a living.


By Mavis on Wednesday, September 6, 2000 - 12:22 pm:

    imelda's on hawthorne specializes in large sizes....sort of pricey though.

By Pez on Wednesday, September 6, 2000 - 05:14 pm:

    oh geez. i feel like a homebody.

    for a second there, i couldn't remembe where hawthorne was.

    i've been spending too much time alternating between shari's and crown point.

    i need to get out more.

    i can't wait until classes start. maybe then i'll meet some guys that can be trusted. but not too much.

    am i obsessed? geesh!

    i think i can wait for a while on shoes. i've bought four pairs over the summer.

By semillama on Wednesday, September 6, 2000 - 07:38 pm:

    For the record: I have dated every single woman who has come on to me.

    At least the ones I could tell were coming on to me.

    And that's so fucked up about Daniel and the bureaucrats. Should've started to pester your congressman, or at least the ones on the committee that funds those bureaucats.

By Isolde on Wednesday, September 6, 2000 - 08:18 pm:

    I have such tiny feet that I have a huge problem finding shoes. I commisserate.

By Pez on Wednesday, September 6, 2000 - 08:29 pm:

    want a lucky rabbit's foot? mine are like that, only less fuzzy.

    i can't wear my favorite shoes while working. hurts too bad 'cause i went for too small so i could get a pair of shoes.

    oh well.i should be happy. i have both feet. even if it makes me the tallest woman in the family.

By Daniel ssss on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 01:04 am:

    The new place has four toilets, four bathroom sinks, three kitchen sinks (on two floors), two showers, and one bathtub and one two person/four midget hottub. I'm single and live alone. Go figure. I try to conserve water. The inspectors could never figure out where the grey water went, but it's not to the septic.

    I've got about an half acre of great looking ivy though. Oh yeah, the hummingbirds have their own full sized bath tub outdoors where the eaves drain and keep them happy. I think the deer drink from it too, but I've yet to catch them at it. It's ten feet outside the bedroom.

    Trout fishing at Rainbow Trout Lodge, Rockbridge Missouri. I'll go with anyone anytime.

By Gee on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 01:19 am:

    I need to buy a new pair of shoes. I hate shoe shopping. usually I just buy one pair of shoes that will go with everything and wear them till they get all religious, then I buy a new pair. But for some reason the past few months I keep thinking "I need a new pair of shoes". now I have five pairs of shoes and I need another.

    I realize that five pairs of shoes means nothing to you people, but I've Never had that many pairs of shoes in my life. two of those pairs are even sandals. Sandals aren't practical at all! what is happening to me?

By droopy on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 01:42 am:

    i have one pair of dress shoes. my everday pair of shoes for the past ten years (maybe more) has been the same pair of converse sneakers.

By Czarina on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 01:48 am:

    Well Imelda,as long as you don't build an air conditioned closet just for your shoe's,you'll probably alright,but lets not forget what happened to the real Imelda and her shoe fetish

By Cat on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 01:48 am:

    I am so into shoes...I can't even tell you how many pairs I have. It's like a disease. Stop now Gee or you two will end up hopelessly addicted to the feel of fine italian leather caressing your instep as the snazzy heel cracks on the pavement.

    I just bought a pair of fake snakeskin square-toed and black with this little crooked heel. Bitchin'

By Gee on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 02:10 am:

    do they have fine italian leather at Payless?

By Isolde on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 09:18 am:

    I have two pairs of shoes, one dressy, one regular.

By Nate on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 10:14 am:

    boots, berks, running, casual and dress.

    5 pair.

    more than many men.

By Daniel Sshort On Sshoess Too on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 11:04 am:

    one pair Nike ACG hiking boots, one pair New Balance running shoes (worn and will be replaced by new Nikes soon), one pair old old old boots I don't wear unless my good uns are wet, one pair new and uncomfortable RockDressports tasselled penny loafers.

    These last made by some importer and not as good as the Dressports I've worn for yeaaars.

    Things are getting more expensive and less well made. Consumerism, bah. I paid a pretty sum for some Berks dress shoes and couldn't wear them and gave them to my son.

    And one pair Rocksports boat shoes with slippery soles. Coming apart but I can't throw them away.

    Six only, three of which I seldom wear.

    Why would women be afraid of guys with so few shoes? Is that the question?

    May be we should buy more shoes.

By semillama on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 01:02 pm:

    Lately I've been wearing boots almost exclusively.

    I have a pair of Nevados all-purpose boots, which are low tops and serve me as every day shoe-things.
    I have a pair of tough ass steel toe high top work boots with hiking treads for archaeology.
    I have a pair of steel toe Doc Marten's.
    I have a pair of black jungle boots.
    I have a pair of sandals.
    I have a pair of Dr. Scholl's, which I wear when I need to wear somewhat nice shoes, like at weddings and conferences.
    I have a pair of rather nice dress shoes, which rub my ankles raw.
    I have one pair of sneakers, which I wear in the gym.
    I have a pair of flip-flops, for the shower at the gym.
    Back north I also have a pair of Sorels for snow.

    that's 10 pairs of footgear.

By Pez on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 01:27 pm:

    i admit it. i love shoes.

    (1)a pair of doc marten's mens dress up shoes with "dalmatian" fur and a buckle
    (2)a pair of high-heeled booties which are slighltly too small so i can wear them to school but not to work
    (3)a pair of mens airwalks with flames on the sides
    (4)a pair of brown leather closed toe sandals
    (5)a pair of black strechy slide sandals
    (6)a pair of brown dr. scholls with wooden soles which i plan to redo in white velvet and lavender ribbons
    (7)a pair of "boy killer" shoes that i bought for the purpose of going out dancing but haven't worn yet
    (8)a pair of white sneakers with purple laces and platform soles
    (9)a pair of blue and white nikes which i got on clearance for $7 which now have blue laces with rainbows (ohhh, so comfortable)
    (10)a pair of tennies that i spray-painted and went scissors-happy until they're the worst shoes a person could wear
    (11)a pair of sketchers shoes that i wear for hiking
    (12)a pair of bongo shoes that i hardly wear anymore (they turned the stairs green to the dismay of my mother)
    (13)a pair of navy-blue berkies with an ankle strap that i haven't worn for quite some time
    (14)an old pair of black cowbow boots which won't fit unless i cut off my toes
    (15)a pair of blue foam thongs that i wear everywhere
    (16)a pair of white chenille thongs that i use for slippers
    (17)a pair of papillion berkies (brown) that are my favorite shoes to wear (but not to work)
    (18)a pair of black ballet slippers that i slip onto my bare feet when i'm writing poetry

    dammit. no wonder i'm in a shoe department.

By patrick on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 01:44 pm:

    2 pairs ankle boots 1 with buckles 1 without
    low cut blacks, real shit kickers (these work for dress and otherwise)
    low cut sneaks
    hiking boots
    docs (from highscool mind you, still going)

    i like shoes too, but mind you, men, like all other men apparel, get screwed......good men's shoes (aside from tennis shoes) are $$$$$$ and we have so few options......

By Dougie on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 02:21 pm:

    I keep all my old nasty tennis shoes even when I buy new ones. I can't throw them away, just like my old jeans. I've got tennies and jeans back from the 80's. Otherwise, 1 pair black dress, 1 pair oxblood dress, 1 pair brown suede casual.

By Tired on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 03:50 pm:

    Walk much, droopy? I can't imagine any pair of shoes lasting 10 years of almost-everyday usage.

    My list (1 of each, in approximate reverse order of purchase):

    Adidas Missle Launchers
    Reebok raver sneakers
    Leather shoe-shoes that are uncomfortable but only worn to weddings and thanksgiving and christmas dinners.
    Converse sneakers (not the canvas thingamabobs)

By Mavis on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 03:59 pm:

    okay, here's my list:

    two pairs clunky black dressy/not so dressy shoes, for wearing with dresses or not
    1 pair skeechers hiking boots with thinsulate.
    1 pair mary janes
    1 pair black rubber ginas (flipflops to you gringos)
    1 pair over the knee shiny black clunky boots.
    1 pair black motorcycle boots
    1 pair yellow beige and silver new balance tennies
    1 pair funny old school black runner airwalk for rocking out, biking, and wearing with some skirts
    that's it.
    unless i left some shoes at sem's house....did i?

By patrick on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 05:20 pm:

    (uncomfortable silence)

By Mavis on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 05:40 pm:

    okay, i remembered that i left the esprit wearing-to-a-wedding shoes and my double insulated boots that say "venus girl trap" on the side that are too warm to wear out here but perfect for the lake superior/central wisconsin bioregion.

    hey sem, get yr ass home and get back on sorabji!!
    ha ha!

    why don't you make a list of all the stuff i ever left at your house? could you even do it? could it be a thesis?

By patrick on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 05:52 pm:

    my silence was directed at tired

By Mavis on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 05:58 pm:


By cyst on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 06:19 pm:

    droopy uses a wheelchair to get around.

By Tired on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 06:27 pm:

    Oh dear, terribly sorry, droopy, I had no idea. That was dumb and rude of me.

By semillama on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 06:29 pm:

    Ithink tired showed up after the last time Droopy made reference to that, but I could be wrong. If so, he guilty of an extreme lapse of tact. Otherwise, he's guilty of not having read every single trhead ever posted here.

    It's not like we have little "trading cards" with our vital stats on them.

By sarah on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 09:07 pm:

    2 pairs of clogs (work shoes, beige and black)
    1 pairs kickboxing shoes
    1 pair running sneakers
    1 pair cross trainers
    6 mismatched pairs slippahs
    1 pair white anne klein sandals with heel (worn once)
    2 pair misc dressy sandals
    1 pair hiking boots
    1 pair punk rock boots (as if)
    1 pair fuzzy slippers

By Cat on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 09:27 pm:

    2 pairs fuzzy black slippers
    1 pair fuzzy pink slippers
    4 pairs ballet shoes (still in use ones...another 5 deceased pairs are hidden somewhere cause I can't part with them)
    1 pair ballroom dancing shoes (never worn for that purpose)
    1 pair red satin buckled shoes
    1 pair red loafers with cute little gold bear thingy
    1 pair blue loafers with tassle
    1 pair blue runners (used for gardening now)
    1 pair blue suede lace up shoes
    1 pair red doc martin boots
    1 pair black patent knee high boots
    1 pair brown hiking boots
    1 pair surfing bootie thingies
    1 pair black grandma shoes (for work)
    1 pair big-mistake cream court shoes
    1 pair grey and black silk shoes
    1 pair navy sandals
    1 pair clear plastic sandals with wild multi-coloured heel
    1 pair pink suede court shoes
    1 pair bitchin black stilletoes
    1 pair red patent stilletoes
    1 pair cream/navy high heels
    1 pair pink strappy high heeled sandals with little blue flower
    1 pair silver tragic sandals
    1 pair gold cut out kinda shoes
    1 pair black flat loafers with little holey sides
    1 pair brown jesus christ sandals
    1 pair runners
    1 pair rock-climbing hikers
    (There's more but that's all I'm confessing to)

By droopy on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 10:48 pm:


    the ambulatory are way too sensitive.

    and spend too much money on shoes.

By Antigone on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 10:51 pm:

    Cat, ya want fries with that?

    I love shoes, too. However, I love only two pairs of them: one pair of black SAS loafers, and one pair of Catskill Mountain moccasins.

    I also wear a pair of cheap white Nike sneakers, but only because neither black loafers nor knee high moccasins go well with shorts and a tee shirt. (My work wardrobe...)

By Antigone on Thursday, September 7, 2000 - 10:52 pm:

    And, we have somehow mutated from man-fearin' to shoe-lovin'...


    I don't think so...

By agatha on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 12:23 am:

    i am going to buy some new shoes next week. it's time. my adidas running sneakers smell so bad that i can smell them while standing up. daniel, for shame with all the nike.

By Bell_jar on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 12:30 am:

    i've been contemplating giving away all of my shoes, i have many many pair, and buying a pair of rain boots. what more would i need.

    rain boots everyday might encourage rain.

    i like rain.

    besides i feel badly about having so many shoes. material things make me feel guilty. as i explained to antithesis, i gave away my computer a few months ago due to guilt of materialism. i'm a freak.

By Pez on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 01:54 am:

    wow. i was the recipient of a chumbawamba cd because a friend of ine was going hiking. for a year.

    he came back a month later and works at texaco, as i hear...

By Daniel the glovaholic on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 01:59 am:

    I can't help it. I buy a new pair of Nikes each year except last year NONE fit right, same model, right size, wrong fit, so I tried a pair of New Balance, which I have not liked, didn't like when I bought em, and still - though wearing everyday -still hate.

    I am on the search for a good Nike air cross trainer. One pair of Nike ACG boots I wore for week in the desert at Flagstaff at 5000-6000 feet, and couldn't wear any longer...and gave to my youngest rock climber; he loves em. They are indestructible. I have a pair I've had for at least eight years, before they started handling ACG's locally. Still a better boot.

    The only shoes worth having for ten years were the Rocksports loafers. And with new soles Vibram of course they lasted over ten years daily wear before the uppers wore out. I bought two pair, different colors, in 1989, and finally gave them to the Salvation Army in 1999. New soles before giveaway.

    Cat, get a grip. Two feet. Seven days. No more than fourteen pair. What about gloves?


    grey for the grey camel winter topcoat;

    black for the black/blue/driving coat;

    light grey Eddie Bauer thermos for driving and walking and holding hands in the winter woods;

    old smelly raunchy but never will I part with em sheep fuzz lined winter work gloves with tough leather outers;

    three pair old pigskin work gloves, some with holes;

    one good pair pigskin without holes;

    new engineer's leather and cloth lawnmowingtreepruning gloves;

    one pair blue and white vinyl palmed fingers cut off winter gloves for hand work when I need fingers;

    and one pair green knit fingered black little nubbly things on the palms for driving (I don't like these);

    and several pair of those little hand size stretchy knit thin layering gloves.

    Geez, glad we're not inventoring condoms.

    I am working on voluntary simplicity. Honest.

By Pez on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 02:16 am:

    i have dozens of single gloves in my sock drawer.

    but i have two whole pairs.

    neon green one-size (too small) that i've had since i was nine


    fluffy purple fleece.

    i keep 'em in my car.

    i've also cut up old socks to wear as fingerless gloves while being the voice of the pep band.

By Isolde on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 08:23 am:

    I bought these shoes almost two years ago. They're docks. I'm expecting at least two more years out of them. My Docs always live forever.
    Not, of course, 10 years, know. Good shoes are expensive. I hate that about them.

By Cat on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 08:52 am:

    Back to man fearin'...Someone I cared about let me down tonight. I asked him not to tell someone something, and he promised he wouldn't, but then he did it anyway.

    I'm surprised because I had him picked as the honourable sensitive respectful-of-feelings type. Guess I just have really lousy judgement.

    Best to stick to shoes, me thinks. I have excellent taste in footwear.

By Nate on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 10:17 am:

    i own one pair of work gloves.

    don't need no warm gloves where i come from.

By patrick on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 12:23 pm:

    hey cat so I'm learning about Australia....the documentary continued last night.

    One question for you.....

    Republic or Monarch? How did you vote? I only got the jist of the situation, perhaps you could enlighten me.

    Also, the camera shots of some of the beaches, presumably around Sydney were unfriggin believeable. Grabnted they filtered the camera lense but the water and the sky looked so appealing.....Nico and I thought perhaps we would come visit in the we both need a vacation, it's just a matter of timing, money and planning.......we have vouchers, so our airfare would be nearly free........

    but then again we drooled when the commerical came on for British Airways offering cheapo flights to London.....we are whimsical.....

By semillama on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 12:53 pm:

    One pair thinsulate winter gloves
    two pair Plainsmen goatskin work gloves, one still in box for back up (my all time favorite work gloves, tough yet still allow a good deal of finger use (such as picking up small things))
    One pair weightlifting/sport gloves

    That's it.

By Isolde on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 01:09 pm:

    Sorabjifest Austrailia, here we come!

By dave. on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 01:34 pm:

    one jock strap. nothing else. my nipples are hard.

By droop on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 02:02 pm:

    i used to wear riding gloves to protect my hands (you know, like for bikes - no fingers and reinforced palms), but i would always shred them in no time. i'm an active guy. in my wheelchair. i stopped wearing anything and let my hands callus.

    i think i'm going to start shopping around for a new chair next month. i usually get black, but maybe i'll try a new color.

By patrick on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 02:05 pm:

    what kinda of options are you shopping for? is your chair more of a minimal sporty type or is it more functional, equipped with a bull horn, motorized and curb feelers?

By Mavis on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 02:17 pm:

    i have one pair of bike gloves
    a pair of fleece mittens i made for when i go home, and a pair of expensive handsewn women's work gloves that are the best thing i own....i wear them for woodworking and yardwork and while spanking naughty boys!

By droop on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 02:33 pm:

    patrick - minimal sporty in a vaguely sexy way. just like me. but i do like to accessorize. gimme some suggestions.

By Mavis on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 02:37 pm:

    STREAMERS!!!!!!!and glow in the dark stars.

By Dougie on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 02:40 pm:

    How about boat running lights, droopy? Red on your port side, green on your starboard, and a white anchor light above and behind your head.

By patrick on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 02:51 pm:

    actually obtain a airplane landing strobe for when you are making you way into buildings, autos and such.

By droopy on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 02:59 pm:

    heh-heh. don't be so subtle. let you're imaginations run wild.

    i actually do have a jpeg of me (when i was in a band) in a chair that was kind of decked-out, but you can't actually see it. the chair. pity.

By blindswine on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 03:01 pm:

    i'd go straight ninja-- matte black frame, ATV wheels with black metallic rims, sunken tazers and stun baton holder.

    throw in a mounted cattle prod on the front grill and watch shopping at the mall get a hell of a lot more fun.

    you'll never have to wait in line again.

By patrick on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 03:04 pm:

    "instant pooblitz"

    this term has been in my mind for the last 20 hours or so.

    I don't know why, but it's there. Take it back would ya!

By blindswine on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 03:24 pm:


    no way, man.

    that's just the beginning.

    paradigm subversion is in full effect, baby.

    by the end of the year i'll have you squealing like a pig.

By blindswine on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 03:26 pm:


    that didn't come out quite right...

    fucking deliverance.


By Isolde on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 03:59 pm:

    Mount a row of dildos on the back.
    That's all you need.

By Cat on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 04:23 pm:

    (into fashion consultant mode)

    Droop, the colours for this season are pastels and soft neutrals with a lot of asian influence.

    I'm seeing the chair in a delightful shade of aubergine with some asian characters painted in a muted gold. Since no one can read the characters, make 'em say something like "jump on bitch, let's ride".

    And you need this season's "must have" accessory...the little bubbling stone fountain mounted on the back of the chair (it will have the unfortunate effect of making you want to pee constantly, but style costs baby)

    Throw in some dinky little fringed satin pillows and you'll be very this year.

By Cat on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 04:31 pm:

    Oh and Patrick, our beaches seriously rock. We're talking deserted white sand slices of paradise with water so blue it's like dipping into Paul Newman's eyes.

    Let me know if you're deciding on Oz and I'll bring some travel info over with me when I come a-calling. Australia's a big country and you have to know where to go etc (and I'm just the gal to tell you where to go.)

    You want to think about Thailand too. It's cheap, the food is heaven, the beaches paradise and the shopping...words desert me. Check out this url (sorry, can't remember how to do links) - It's the most beautiful spot in the entire World.

By patrick on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 04:34 pm:

    my wife is partly responsible for that asian influence in fashion this season, as thats her job, designing specialty textiles, for BCBG, Donna Karen, BeBe, Esprit........

    mainly construction deconstruction

    she has some neat stories about these little mills in the Japanese countryside......

    unfortunately, since her company is considered a vendor, nor different than the guy who supplies the buttons so she rarely gets credit for her work.....

    however she did get invited by Max Aziriah to the fall show in NYC in 2 weeks......which is a rarity

    im proud of my girl

By cyst on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 04:41 pm:

    max azria. that's neat.

    I feel like a living gap ad in my knee-length black leather today. it's ubiquitous. the downtown secretaries all look like dominatrixes.

By sarah on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 05:12 pm:

    i have a date tonight with a beautiful latino boy who moved here recently from LA to go to law school. and he's a former olympic boxer.

    don't call it a comeback!

    i saw lavernis anthony walker last night at the gym. i've started calling him O.G., which cracks him up. i don't know what is up with that boy. i'd like to be good to him, but he works too hard, too much.

    i am not afraid of men. not anymore. no matter how badass and scary they are. i think i'm finally getting it now. it's like losing weight. once you learn the trick, it's like DUH.

By semillama on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 05:36 pm:

    My acquaintence Justin, late of man Ray 19, gets around in a flat black chair, no back. On eof his favorite things to do while playing is to chuck it into the audience.

    (He has MD, which is why he needs the chair)

By Cat on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 05:40 pm:

    Oh and on the republic vote..I was definitely for dumping the monarchy. It's one of pet peeves about my country...that we're still shackled to England. Given our multi-cultural population and our global location, it totally blows.

    And don't even get me started on the Union Jack on our flag.

By Pez on Friday, September 8, 2000 - 07:27 pm:

    that reminds me...does australia have a patron saint?

    if you're shackled to the brits, something of austrailia's should be on their flag.

    makes sense, i think.

By Gee on Saturday, September 9, 2000 - 01:06 am:

    I heard they don't have a one cent piece in australia. I cannot fathom that.

By Cat on Saturday, September 9, 2000 - 01:37 am:

    The patron saint of Oz is Steve Irwin.

    We have no 1 or 2 cent coins. We use beads instead.

    The only thing of Australia on the British flag should be our shit after we've wiped our asses with it.

By Suck My Dick on Saturday, September 9, 2000 - 02:53 pm:


By semillama on Saturday, September 9, 2000 - 03:59 pm:

    You rock Cat!

By patrick on Monday, September 11, 2000 - 12:24 pm:

    i suspect we have more in common with you folks down under simply due to our were a bunch of convicts exiled from the queens arse...and we were a bunch of religious nuts exiled from said arse....there could be a connection.......we both have a sticky residue of a puritanical culture that taints our contemporary culture.....

    i think i wanna come to australia now.

By Scarred straight on Monday, September 11, 2000 - 01:40 pm:

    im afraid of a vagina with teeth that will bite my penis off!

By Isolde on Monday, September 11, 2000 - 01:52 pm:

    Then don't come over to my house.

By Trace on Monday, September 11, 2000 - 02:02 pm:

    i thought you were not a meat eater??

By Isolde on Monday, September 11, 2000 - 02:05 pm:

    I never said my vagina was vegan. Plus, I'd be "intimately" involved with the food source, ya know?

By patrick on Monday, September 11, 2000 - 02:48 pm:


    trace trace trace.....

By Dougie on Monday, September 11, 2000 - 03:04 pm:

    I think Trace meant that Scarred Straight's penis would be the meat, and that Isolde's vagina would be the meat-eater, hence the confusion about her being vegan.

By semillama on Monday, September 11, 2000 - 05:45 pm:

    Scarred Straight: One simple line of advice -

    You have to de-beak them FIRST.

By R.C. on Tuesday, September 12, 2000 - 01:30 am:

    Droopy: Is it considered excessive or gauche to have multiple wheelchairs? I know they're horribly expensive. But so are Manolo Bhlaniks & I have at least 6 prs. sitting in my closet from my city girl days. (You cdn't pay me to put on a pr.of 4-in. stiletto's now. I'm just a sandals/loafers/sneakers kinda chick now. Well, you cd pay me/but I'd have to get at least 4 digits for the nite. But we're off the shoe thing now...)

    Say a matt black one w/ATV wheels like Swine described for everyday.

    Then a built-for-comfort model w/thick glove leather armpads & a nice firm backrest so yr dates can ride side-saddle across yr lap down the hilly streets w/their thighs swelling gorgeously beneath their skirts & their hair swirling around you like ribbons in the wind. (You still owe me a spin!). And a bar rack on the back w/a shaker & a couple of martini glasses. And a slide-in holder for yr smokes & lighter.

    And of course/a CD player w/a headphone jack. And maybe a small pr. of side-mounted Bose speakers for picnics in the park or on the boardwalk/when you want to bring yr own groove & not keep it to yrself. And a slot for a couple of books & pens/or a laptop.

    Then a real gnarly titanium chair in gunmetal grey or metal-flake blue w/big fat inflatable tires for when when you want to wade thru the surf. Becuz even the best wheelchairs suck in sand.

    Do you know anyone who has more than 1 chair? Or 2 or 3/for different uses? I have a friend whose parents have 4 fucking cars. For just the 2 of them -- Pigs!

    Hell, Larry Flint has a 14k-gold plated gold chair/so what the fuck?

By TBone on Tuesday, September 12, 2000 - 07:10 pm:

    I'd add a HERF gun to stop traffic. Maybe flashing lights, a siren, and a gas engine.

    You'd need a cattle guard or big-ass bumper then. Plow the peds out of the way.

By Isolde on Tuesday, September 12, 2000 - 07:23 pm:

    We could design you some sort of badass custom cattle prod that could reach out and grab people.

By Mavis on Wednesday, September 13, 2000 - 12:06 pm:

    yeha it could be called the

By Mavis on Wednesday, September 13, 2000 - 12:56 pm:

    come on! that was funny!!!

By Trace on Wednesday, September 13, 2000 - 01:39 pm:

    that was a good song

By droopy on Thursday, September 14, 2000 - 01:38 am:

    this is the wheelchair i get around in. mine has a small pouch under the seat in the front and, occasionally, a cup holder.

    i don't actually know any other people in wheelchairs, so i don't know what the etiquette is on multiple ownership. the last chair i had literally fell apart on me, so it might be handy to have a backup.

    i don't actually have plans to get a new chair. i just find it makes people feel comfortable when they get to objectify the wheelchair and play dress-up with it. the results always remind me of that episode of the simpsons where homer's long-lost brother has him design a car.

By Cat on Thursday, September 14, 2000 - 03:19 am:

    It's nice to see not even wheelchairs are free from the advertising copywriter in full flight. I mean, you change one word and you could be talking about a plane:

    "The first aircraft combining the durability of 3A1-2.5V Aircraft-grade titanium with the rigidity and shock damping of carbon fiber. The result is two world-class performance materials in one world-class performance aircraft. The Vision Nitro. Light. Resilient. In a word, remarkable. And just possibly, the most technologically sophisticated aircraft design ever put into production."

    Actually maybe we should forward it to Mark for a Sorabji entry statement.

By Trace on Thursday, September 14, 2000 - 07:04 am:

    It looks like you could fly on that thing

By droopy on Thursday, September 14, 2000 - 12:20 pm:

    i think cat is on to something. though i think the barracuda copy might be better. "perfect 10 on the Techno-Lust Scale."

    these chairs sound like they should have a radio commercial using the monster truck rally guy:


    but here's something even better.

    "Each wheelchair is a custom-made, quality product, built by me, with integrity and pride. I stand behind the workmanship on my wheelchairs for dogs.


By Isolde on Thursday, September 14, 2000 - 12:40 pm:

    You should get it just because it's called a Barracuda. That;s awesome.

By Pez on Thursday, September 14, 2000 - 08:21 pm:

    wheelchairs are cool. my sister and i used to play with my great-grandma's discarded wheelchair when we were little.

    you must have kick-ass (or maybe punch-ass) arms, droopy.

By agatha on Thursday, September 14, 2000 - 10:59 pm:

    i think i'm going to pee my pants.

By Pez on Friday, September 15, 2000 - 12:38 am:

    isn't that what a toilet's for?

By Gee on Saturday, September 16, 2000 - 01:33 am:

    you put your pants in your toilet? That's just gross, man.

    I am So funny.

By Isolde on Saturday, September 16, 2000 - 01:48 am:

    I put the toilet in my pants.

By pez on Saturday, September 16, 2000 - 01:57 am:

    i wear the toilet for pants.

By Isolde on Saturday, September 16, 2000 - 01:59 am:

    Toilet the i put for pants.

By pez on Saturday, September 16, 2000 - 02:03 am:

    i once took the words "i write in orange ink" and put them in every possible combination without repeating a word. took me a couple of days and about five pages of my book.

By Isolde on Saturday, September 16, 2000 - 02:04 am:

    I remember doing math problems like that. They were always so much fun.

By pez on Saturday, September 16, 2000 - 02:10 am:

    math is okay, but only if it requires lots of work without explanation.

    i used to spend days solving matrices...

By Antigone on Saturday, September 16, 2000 - 11:07 am:

    A couple of days and five pages of a book? It's only five words!

By Isolde on Saturday, September 16, 2000 - 11:22 am:

    Pssssst--do the math!
    Maye they were large pages, though. And a couple days...anyway. Yeah. Do the math.

By Antigone on Saturday, September 16, 2000 - 12:01 pm:

    There's lots of different interpretations of "every possible combination without repeating a word," but the math is easy.

    All different permutations (orderings) of 5 words is 5!, or 5 * 4 * 3 * 2 * 1, or 120.

    No repeats, all combinations (with using or not using a word, no ordering) is 2^5, or 32.

    All permutations of every combination is a bit more complex. With (m n) being the number of combinations of n items taken from a pool of m items, the total is:

    (5 0) + 0! + (5 1) * 1! + (5 2) * 2! + (5 3) * 3! + (5 4) * 4! + (5 5) * 5!


    1 * 1 + 5 * 1 + 10 * 2 + 10 * 6 + 5 * 24 + 1 * 120



    Want some code that will spit out all combinations of any n words? :-)

By Douglas on Saturday, September 16, 2000 - 05:18 pm:

    Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing the code for all permutations of every combo. Here's a simple recursive function for a plain old factorial:

    int factorial (int x)
    if (x == 0 || x == 1)
    return 1;
    return x * factorial(x-1);

By semillama on Saturday, September 16, 2000 - 06:28 pm:

    Someday I will be a large scar.

By Antigone on Sunday, September 17, 2000 - 12:12 am:

    Try this Java code:

    import java.util.LinkedList;
    import java.util.List;

    public class perm
    public static void main(String[] args)
    LinkedList stuff = new LinkedList();

    for(int i = 0; i < args.length; i++)

    long loopMax = numPerms(stuff.size());

    for(long i = 0; i < loopMax; i++)
    System.out.println(getPerm(stuff, i));

    private static final long numPerms(int n)
    long numPerms = 1L;

    for(int i = 2; i <= n; i++)
    numPerms *= i;

    return numPerms;

    private static List getPerm(List stuff, long permNum)
    if(permNum < 0)
    throw new IllegalArgumentException("You are an idiot...");

    int numElements = stuff.size();

    if(permNum > numPerms(numElements))
    throw new IllegalArgumentException("Fuck off! Max permutation: " +

    long permNumTmp = permNum;

    List toScramble = new LinkedList(stuff);
    LinkedList scrambled = new LinkedList();

    for(int i = numElements; i > 0; i--)
    scrambled.add(toScramble.remove((int)(permNumTmp % i)));
    permNumTmp /= i;

    return scrambled;


    java perm i write in orange ink

By Cat on Sunday, September 17, 2000 - 01:32 am:

    Is that the secret formula for Coca Cola? Or is it just geek for "Want to come up to my place?"?

By Antigone on Sunday, September 17, 2000 - 02:16 am:

    Nah, it's geek for, "How much can I possibly fuck up?"

By Isolde on Sunday, September 17, 2000 - 02:18 am:

    I heard a band called Weeping Anus tonight.

By patrick on Monday, September 18, 2000 - 12:45 pm:

    thats one of the dumbest names i've heard in a long time.

    a silly band name that i sorta like....Nostradumbass....

By Isolde on Monday, September 18, 2000 - 12:49 pm:

    It is. The band's pretty cool. I just thought it was appropriate Sorabji material...

By Pandora on Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 10:10 pm:

    who is this sarah and how do you know Lavernis anthony walker? Are we talking about honolulu?

By Antigone on Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 10:38 pm:

    This was a good thread.

By Antigone on Sunday, March 6, 2005 - 12:29 am:

    Don't reply? Sheeeeeit...

By kazu on Sunday, March 6, 2005 - 09:24 am:

    "I give up. Obviously, I was not meant to be with anyone."

    Obviously not.


By Platypus on Sunday, March 6, 2005 - 12:44 pm:

    It's entertaining seeing how my attitudes about shoes have changed. I now have a collection that I would imagine rivals Cat's.

    And where is that girl anyway? I miss her.

By Antigone on Sunday, March 6, 2005 - 06:01 pm:

    She's around and apparently talks to Mark every day. She just doesn't talk on the boards. I can give you her e-mail address, if she approves.

By Platypus on Monday, March 7, 2005 - 01:47 am:

    Hrm, how sad. Her presence is one the boards sorely need.

By ... on Monday, March 7, 2005 - 02:06 am:

    only the saddest talk to Mark on any kind of a regular basis

By patrick on Monday, March 7, 2005 - 01:04 pm:

    man, im mixed about the thread revivals in which i banter on about the ex. she had no idea...

    whats the opposite of 'instant pooblitz' and does anybody have some?

By Antigone on Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 12:40 am:

    ..., does that include Mark himself?

By patrick on Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 01:20 pm:


By Pandora on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 10:49 am:

    Antigone, are you talking to me? And if so do you mean sarah? I will give you my email address know problem, I am just not sure if we are talking about the same person..

By Antigone on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 01:23 am:

    Dunno, am I talking to you?

    And I was talking about Cat.

By Cat on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 04:27 am:

    Don't talk about me. Don't talk to me. Don't revive old threads where I was talking out of my ass. Don't talk through my ass. Don't do anything to do with me.


By dave. on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 05:16 am:


By J on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 11:44 am:


By jack on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 01:46 pm:

    good post.

    when you post stupid shit under someone else's name, feel free to use mine instead of j's.

By Antigone on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 05:50 pm:

    I just read a post by you, inadvertantly disobeying your request. Sorry...

By Antigone on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 05:51 pm:

    And Platy, I assume this means she would not approve.

By Pandora on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 06:46 pm:

    who is sarah?

By jack on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 06:48 pm:

    she used to live in hawaii. she used to post here.

By jack on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 06:58 pm:

    my browser displays dates on this page.
    perhaps yours does not.
    sarah mentioned seeing "lavernis anthony walker" at the gym in September, 2000.

By Pandora on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 10:08 pm:

    I know it sounds crazy, its hard to explain. Thanks for your help though.

By jack on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 11:08 pm:

    you're welcome.

By Janny on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 02:24 am:

    Hey Cat,girlfriend,would that mean to just forget you,or just your ass?

By Platypus on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 12:46 pm:

    "I assume this means she would not approve."

    Funny, I was just thinking that myself.

By patrick on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 01:42 pm:


By V on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 02:20 pm:


By Cat on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 03:59 am:

    Platy - will get me most times. Or you can try Or

    J - you can still pull up a bar stool next to me in Hell, dear.

By V on Sunday, April 3, 2005 - 01:59 pm:

    ...better still,sit with me.,v is allways more charming.

By J on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 01:40 pm:

    Cat,how the hell you doing? Sorry v,I'm really more charming.

By V on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 08:55 pm:

    J,if I get the time,need to come over and shake your hand or what ever,split 10 bots of j.d. with you perhaps?5 for you,5 for me,myself I just run out,bummer...on sat, v will have vast amounts.

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