or am i too freaking fat?

sorabji.com: Do you love me?: or am i too freaking fat?

By Bell_jar on Friday, March 17, 2000 - 02:53 pm:

    just last fall i gained a whole bunch of weight. i try not to buy into the whole image thing, but it is hard. my dear grandmother aides me in my feelings of obeseness. she told me that she would take me shopping for christmas after i lost some weight. it's march and i haven't lost any weight. some days i feel the pressure of being a "bit chunky" and other days i feel it is somewhat liberating to be against the status quo.

    today finds me in horror of the way that i look when naked. argh...

By cyst on Friday, March 17, 2000 - 09:50 pm:

    eat less. exercise more.

By Gee on Saturday, March 18, 2000 - 02:07 am:

    wow! Why didn't I think of that?

By Kymical on Saturday, March 18, 2000 - 10:31 pm:

    or you can always try the jenny crank diet.

    pick up an addictive narcotic habit (crack, heroin, speed, coke or crank) stimulants are best.

    and eat what you like.


    you can shop for clothes anyway.
    i garuntee either way you will be battling with image.

    i do, i think of myself as volumptous.
    on the road to vegan and not at all waifish. never have been tho.

    if your grandmother wants you to be ashamed you have to remember that it is all a matter of what people have seen or gone through. i lived 18 years of my life in the shadow of my mother's disappointment in her figure. beliving that i was cursed, fat, ugly and undesireable.

    one thing is certain, the opposite sex are happy no matter how you look. if you don't like it tho, you choose to change. don't let people's opinion fueld by their experiences guide you.

    even me.

By Jina on Sunday, March 19, 2000 - 03:17 am:

    Go to Rio de Janiero.

    I just watched a thing on Discovery where people in Rio enjoy the woman's figure. Every figure. Es muy bellisimo. There is no steretypic Brazillian. Everyone's mixed. And happy. Spanish speaking Swedes, Africans, all kinds.

    My friend's belimic. She's got control over it now, but there's still the voice in her head that she battles. Don't even think about it. It screws with your electrolites, and everything else. You need those electrolites to transport electricity through your body from your spinal column, they're the little conductors. It messes with your mood swings too. And it was all because of her uncle in 4th grade, when she got her appendix taken out. He told her she'd put on a little weight during the surgery. Fuck. If he'd only knew.

By cyst on Sunday, March 19, 2000 - 03:31 am:

    develop an obsessive crush.

    that's what gets me to the gym every day.

By BLAKESNAKE on Monday, April 3, 2000 - 03:33 am:

    Live your life more healthy. Remove excess stress.
    Ignore those who make remarks. Exercise and accept yourself for who you are.If you put on the weight it can be taken off. What comes up must go down. Same for weight. Stress usually f-cks things up so don't be so self concious. Then again I can't give good advise I'm unhappy with my body as well. Except for the SNAKE part.

By semillama on Monday, April 3, 2000 - 01:06 pm:

    eat only what you can catch with your bare hands in the wild.

    That'll melt the pounds like butter!

By J on Monday, April 3, 2000 - 01:40 pm:

    Get a job cleaning businesses,not only will you make alot of money,but the pounds just won,t stay on when you work your ass off,I,m thinking of doing it again,I,m sick of just sitting around all day.

By Bell_jar on Monday, April 3, 2000 - 03:10 pm:

    mr./ms. semillama i am forever (or maybe just five minutes) in your debt for being such a funny fellow.

By J on Monday, April 3, 2000 - 04:21 pm:

    While we are praising Sem like we should,I,d like to thank him for turning me on to the Tom Green show.

By moonit on Monday, April 3, 2000 - 04:22 pm:

    Have your boyfriend cheat on you and move out to live with your mum.
    Its been a week and I am 3 kilos lighter.

By Margret on Monday, April 3, 2000 - 04:45 pm:


    He WHAT?

    He did fucking NOT.


    You sure as shit don't need this right now.

    Uh, is there any kind of moral support I can offer?

    Other than this: http://www.pinstruck.com/ ?

By patrick on Monday, April 3, 2000 - 05:22 pm:

    oh my! The Grump?

By moonit on Monday, April 3, 2000 - 11:30 pm:

    Yup the grumpy one. Decided to sleep with someone I knew.

    I punched him. Its the first time I've ever hit anyone.

    I am living at my mums, computerless. But thats okay. I can still get here from work.

    I am a lot better now than I was.

    That link made me laugh, thanks Margret. Gee has offered to help me hide the bodies. You can bring the shovel.

    Actually to be quite honest I am in the place of don't care (at least right now anyway). Its really weird. So yay SINGLE! or something.

By Gee on Tuesday, April 4, 2000 - 01:16 am:

    a. kissykissy, Moonit. We love you.

    b. Blake, it's okay to swear. Go on. Type the WHOLE word next time.

    c. Semillama's a mister. In theory, anyway.

By J on Tuesday, April 4, 2000 - 12:15 pm:

    Moonit remember how J likes to fuck with people anyway?What can I do ?For you,I will pay my own money and call international to fuck with the bastard.You get right back out there honey,get even.It always works for me.

By patrick on Tuesday, April 4, 2000 - 12:24 pm:

    ouch.......what is going on?

By J on Tuesday, April 4, 2000 - 01:09 pm:

    The Gump fucked Moonit and she knows he did,I,m just offering my avenging service,and Patrick,ever hear Elvis Costello sing You Better Watch Your Step?It reminded me of someone.

By agatha on Tuesday, April 4, 2000 - 01:11 pm:

    heh. the gump. you should start calling him that, moonit.

By semillama on Tuesday, April 4, 2000 - 01:13 pm:

    you can refer to semillama as MASTER, thank you.

    And don't worry, BLAKESNAKE, I have already collected on the debt...

    (evil laughter, fading away)

By The Dinner Lady on Tuesday, April 4, 2000 - 01:49 pm:

    Yes please kill ex-beau Moonit yes. Bad man, bad, bad!

    As for being fat: How did you put on that weight? You could go on that crazy Dr. Atkins Diet, work to lose it, or you could just focus on trying to be happy with who you are unless we're talking about you putting on like 40+ lbs and you are seriously morbidly obese now.

    I mean, I'm fat and at that April Fools Party I went to I was told by this man that I was 'so lovely' and I got kissed by another one. Beats the fuck outta me. Then again did anyone else see Queen Latifah at the Academy awards? She was so totally fabulous and beautiful and she is fat so it takes all kinds.

By mistaswine on Tuesday, April 4, 2000 - 02:27 pm:

    queen latifah isn't really "fat", per se.

    she's just a whole lotta sista.

By The whole lotta Dinner Lady on Tuesday, April 4, 2000 - 02:45 pm:

    I'll tell someone that next time I describe myself.

    "What do you look like?"

    "Well, I'm a whole lotta sista."

By sarah on Tuesday, April 4, 2000 - 03:43 pm:

    i usta be a whole lotta girl, but now i'm not.

    eat lots of meat and go for walks. simple.

By moonit on Tuesday, April 4, 2000 - 04:17 pm:

    Its a slow process - I am going to get a personal trainer in a couple of weeks and start really pushing myself to get fit and healthy and strong. Altho I am already quite fit - my best buddy Jules who is thin cannot keep up with me when we go dancing because I exercise way more than she does, but i love food a lot more too.

    I have lost about 7 kilos in the last 8 weeks tho, so that is a good start - I plan to be able to wear a swimsuit in August when I go on holiday to Bali.

    Everybody does call him the Grump - just behind his back - think I should start a new trend?

By J on Tuesday, April 4, 2000 - 04:33 pm:


By The Dinner Lady on Tuesday, April 4, 2000 - 05:05 pm:

    Hating to state the obvious but If this guy was really such a Grump (and he's cheatin' scum) you are better off without him. Definitely start a new trend. And there really is nothing like falling in or out of love to help you take off the weight.

By semillama on Tuesday, April 4, 2000 - 05:10 pm:

    i lost 3 pounds last week on the first week of my new workout/nutrition regimen. My goal is to drop 4 inches from the waist and add about 3 to the chest in 12 weeks.

    good luck to you moonit. ANyone whose nicknameis the grump can't have been all that healthy to be with anyway.

By Margret on Tuesday, April 4, 2000 - 07:50 pm:

    I can remember the good old days when Sarah didn't offer advice about weight loss, but rather offered corrections to culturally induced self-esteem problems.

By sarah on Tuesday, April 4, 2000 - 10:36 pm:

    you know what happened, Ms. Meatmobile? i committed the worst social crime imaginable: I just got tired of fighting.

    here's something from my hidden online journal. this isn't the smeg i write for public consumption, this is the real shit:

    02.18.00 - 4:38 p.m. HST

    i'll start with the breasts of course, because the breasts are, after all, the most important thing. there is no denying that, it's just fact. maybe i can get a breasts and upper arms two-in-one deal. i want them both taut. i've worked hard for these muscles, in my chest and arms. they deserve to be seen. later the stomach area. and perhaps sometime down the road, ass and thighs.

    i'm going for the whole deal.

    if i've learned anything at all from losing all this weight, it's that superficial beauty is everything. how politically incorrect of me. a blaspheming feminist. but you know what? i already have brains. i have ambition. i have the self esteem and the right attitude. i am a strong, independent woman.

    but do you know how much love those things have gotten me?


    i know the real truth about both sides of that coin. and they are equally disgusting and abominable truths. but the bottom line is this: brains don't get you any lovin'. not without the looks.

    and fuck you and your naive idealism if this statement makes you angry. no, i take that back. i accept your anger. it's my anger too. only i've learned not to fight reality. beaten into submission, perhaps.

    i'm just someone who has gone too long without love and acceptance. i've been alone for too long, and fighting too hard against forces seen and unseen. and i'm tired of fighting.

    i laid in bed this morning with a hand-held mirror. i held it as far above my body as my arms would reach, so that i could see what someone else would be seeing if they were to look at me laying in bed naked, if they were on top of me, if they were fucking me. there's too much skin all over the place. my rib cage sticks out, yes. my muscles are clearly defined, from neck to shoulders, arms to legs. yet the extra skin does not contain them well. the natural feminine fatty substance of my breasts and stomach spread outward to my sides, emphasized with deep lines of stretch marks. it's unsightly, and even uncomfortable. physically discomforting.

    i will have it fixed. and i will be proud of my new body. a body i worked hard to achieve. a body that may match my brains. more than a meatmobile. perhaps even a temple.


    02.29.00 - 4:08 p.m.

    I'm leaving work early today to go to 24 Hour Fitness and take an intermediate step aerobics class. They sent me a free 10-day membership, which I plan to take advantage of, since my regular step aerobics instructor quit teaching on Tuesdays and Thursdays and I need a replacement class.

    I can do the machines, but I get bored. I prefer class. It keeps my brain occupied.

    All I can think about is exercise. Not in a bullimic way, but in a heroin addict way. Stronger, leaner, faster. Endorphines, sweat. Pain.

    I met with Dr. C last week. The cosmetic surgeon. "You have a lot of extra skin," he noted as he examined me. Later he said, almost to himself, "Yes, just like someone who has lost a hundred pounds."

    There's a lot of skin. Removing so much makes him worried about scars.

    I'm already scarred, I told him.

    Now it's just a matter of choosing my scars.

    The breasts will not be first. He said the stomach is first. He said he would pull the skin from just above my navel all the way down to my pubic bone. He will fabricate a new belly button in the process. Healing time is at least a month.

    Upper arms and breasts come next, one at a time. Whichever one I want done first, it doesn't matter. Arms, I'm thinking, though I would have thought the breasts would be of utmost priority. But I guess the breasts are more easily accommodated in other ways.

    Long incisions will be made all over. A cesearianesque incision, another along the underside length of each arm, from pit to elbow. The breasts will be cut along the sides. The flaps that have formed on my upper side flanks will be removed. At least one month, but probably more, will have to pass between surgeries. Perhaps by the end of this year I will be completely reconstructed.

    That's how I see it, at least. It's not cosmetic surgery, it's reconstrucive surgery. I'm putting my body back together again, after years of immobility, dysfunction, disassociation, disease, ugliness, hatred, and confusion.

    I'm off to the gym.


    so don't give me any shit about the good old days, alright? because you can't even begin to imagine the horror of what you call "good old days".

    and if you can, then i'm sorry. and i have a diet and exercise program for you.

By Gee on Wednesday, April 5, 2000 - 02:00 am:

    is there anything people won't give up for the possibility of love?

    the above question is not directed at Sarah, but it is based on her post.

By heather on Wednesday, April 5, 2000 - 02:07 am:

    you should give up anything you don't need

    not yourself

By heather on Wednesday, April 5, 2000 - 02:11 am:

    sarah is healthier and happier.

    if it took some idea about love to make her that way, who cares. no, not who cares.. how fucking fantastic

    congratulations sarah

By NZA on Wednesday, April 5, 2000 - 04:44 am:

    Sarah, I was just wondering, do you still get a period with the amount of exercise you do?

    Because exercising to the point your period stops will cause osteoperosis. So that your bones would be as weak and brittle as an eighty year old at the age of 35-40.

    There is such a thing as too much exercise.

By The Dinner Lady on Wednesday, April 5, 2000 - 01:46 pm:

    OK, first let me say that I'm all for people doing whatever they can to make themselves happy with how they appear so long as it is within the bounds of safety.

    As for weight loss - if you really get into finding out a lot about nutrition, and your own personal nutrition needs etc., go to the doctor and have them run blood scans on you to see what vitamins you're missing, foods you're allergic to, insulin levels, measure your frame, and take your family history, etc. I had this done and it was super enlightening to understand that all people have a limit of how low their weight should be and what kind of diets bring out the best in them (ie: not everyone can be a vegitarian without being fatigued, etc.). This info about yourself is empowering because it gives you a blueprint of what your body needs and what it can handle rather than a 'diet of the month' strategy. With this info you are working toward personal fitness.

    What I find appaling though, is how women in this country (and doubtlessly others) will diet and excercise to the point of starvation and fatigue and undergo surgeries in order to recieve love, approval, etc. Of course this is nothing new - check out foot binding and corsets so tight they made women faint, you'd almost think women were crazy for physical abuse that leads to sexual appreciation. In modern times it's like some crazy martyr complex - that you're not worthy of love unless your tits are big enough or your stomach flat enough. Yet certainly I've met women who were physically imperfect with big noses or flat chests or bulging midriffs who were recieving love/sex and had happy marriages/relationships with worthwhile, attractive men - well, how did they do it?

    Like all things - in America especially - we concentrate on the appearance rather than the bigger issues: self esteem, depression,... That's why I asked why bell_jar put on weight. I mean is she depressed? Did she start medication? Is it just natural (getting older)?

    I guess I just find it more and more disturbing, this cult of self-hatred women like to be in. Women who are size 10's who want to be 6's but are perfectly healthy at 10. I'm in it too to some degree - it's very hard to escape. Why do women hate their appearances so much? Is it really just a male fueled media designed to keep women obesessing on the unimportant things (desert) rather than gaining real power in the world? Or is it more that women love to support other women in this insane quest for love that can never really be satisfied (there's always 5 more lbs to go aren't there)? That women like keeping each other down? I have no idea.

By patrick on Wednesday, April 5, 2000 - 03:26 pm:

    it's not soley a male fueled imagery. Many man are not impressed by the big tits and flat bellies. I think it's a combination of things you touched on.
    I think you have healthy attitude about it. I appreciate that.

    If you want to talk about media induced hyper images, look at what men are fed via mags like GQ, Maxim and countless others. Washboard abs, rock hard biceps, full heads of hair, large peni, tight butts and so on. How many more products and services for men have we seen comabout in the last decade....cosmetic and otherwise?

    I think women tend to thrive more on attention than men.

    I think most intelligent women who may not fall into the media sponsored "ideal" know that not all men WANT that image, yet many go through this self torture anyway.

    Seriously, would you, as a woman, want to have a man that will fall over backwards for huge tits and a tucked tummy. Sure some men genuinely find it appealing and thats fine. There are plenty of Pam Andersons to go around for those schlubs.

    Furthermore, have you seen up close and personal , women who have had tit jobs? My god, the sag lines on the sides, the lack of bounce........i mean damn, it's like an aesthetic trade off.

    I think more men need to be vocal about this, and then when nothing changes maybe society and feminists who have blamed a male driven media will be forced to look at other possible sources of this insatiable appetite for the perfect body.

By mistaswine on Wednesday, April 5, 2000 - 04:16 pm:

    man, you're way out of your element.

    the best thing to do in these situations is just step aside and let the train crash.

    after all, once someone starts viewing their body as a commodity whose stock must be surgically elevated in order to compete in the sexual marketplace, they've already been derailed.

    anyway, whatever.

    i like to rubberneck.

By sarah on Wednesday, April 5, 2000 - 05:17 pm:

    fuck you.

    i've tried it both ways, you bastard.

    my body is not a commodity to me. to me, my body has always been beautiful, in ever shape and size. but it's not to you and people like you.

    so fuck you and the self righteous ego trip you rode in on.

By mistaswine on Wednesday, April 5, 2000 - 06:10 pm:

    "my body is not a commodity to me. to me, my body has always been beautiful, in ever shape and size. but it's not to you and people like you."

    do i really need to bother stating (and questioning) the obvious here?

    anyway, good luck with all that shit.

    one last thing to keep in mind:

    your lack of lovin' problem might not have anything to do with the fat.

    it might just be you.

By patrick on Wednesday, April 5, 2000 - 06:57 pm:

    re: heather

    "sarah is healthier and happier."

    if all of that she is going to go thru equates being "happier"....MY GAWD!......

    we are no different than the victorian age in which women sucked and tied in their waists to deadly porportions.

    You have been forthcoming with all of this sarah, i so i feel it's ok to mull it over here.......

    it doesn't sound like "reconstruction", it sounds like destruction and mutilation.

    I just don't understand how you can say breasts are the most important thing. It seems you are the only person saying this. Female species have breast for the most obvious reason, but also they are MEANT to attract male attention. So if you are basing this on the fact that many guys probably stare at your breasts while you talk, take pride in the fact they stare, for after surgery, they may not stare as much. The optimum guy will not only stare but actually listen and respond at the same time.

    "All I can think about is exercise. Not in a bullimic way, but in a heroin addict way. Stronger, leaner, faster. Endorphines,sweat. Pain."

    I am not a doctor or shrink by any means, but this doesn't pass me as healthy. It seems obsessive.

    I know you don't regard me or my opinions.....you have bluntly called me pathetic...and thats the beauty of this forum, i can pick and choose what to regard and what not to regard.....but despite that, I am concerned, as much as i can be for a near stranger.

    I just don't think all of this will make you happy. I certainly hope it will, but I think you may find yourself even less happy afterwords, not to mention out a lot of money. I mean jesuschristoshitfuck, it sounds like a Hawaii Chainsaw Massacre.......

    I understnad being "tired of fighting" but why does there have to be a fight? Why can't there just be a term of understanding with yourself? An acceptance, and a little faith that you can and will meet someone who will make you happy? A little faith in well.....fate? Are you gonna be happy with the guy who never talked to you before but does now thanks to your new tits? Thats seems hardly the quality of man you deserve.


By sarah on Wednesday, April 5, 2000 - 07:14 pm:

    you push and push and push and i fight and fight and fight. and then i fall down.

    then you blame me for falling down. and mock me as well.

    that's nice. glad you've got it all figured out.

    oh, except that love thing. i'm fairly certain that my idea of love is much different than yours. i've been loved and i've been in love, and maybe you have too. my body doesn't deliver me love, my friend. all it gives me is a chance. i know the rest is up to me.

    luckily i got it all now. no, not luck. it has nothing to do with luck.


    it's funny though, you know? they hate you for your weaknesses and they are intimidated by your strengths.

    there's no winning.

    especially around here.

By sarah on Wednesday, April 5, 2000 - 07:14 pm:

    btw, hope you had fun watching my webcam last night...

By sarah on Wednesday, April 5, 2000 - 07:15 pm:

    at 1:30 in the morning.

By sarah on Wednesday, April 5, 2000 - 07:17 pm:

    was your lady hanging out at your place at that hour? did you just finish making love with the woman of your dreams, the smart, beautiful, gracious woman, the one of many who obviously must adore you... did she enjoy the webcam as well?

By sarah on Wednesday, April 5, 2000 - 07:25 pm:

    "God help you if you're an ugly girl
    'course too pretty is also your doom.
    Everyone harbors a secret hatred
    for the prettiest girl in the room."

    -- Ani Difranco

By Jina on Wednesday, April 5, 2000 - 10:17 pm:

    Well, you are being frank about beauty. If you're in a bar and you catch eyes with a great looking guy, you KNOW he isn't checking out your brains( as he swindles up to the bar to buy you a drink).

    I thought you looked good already. I don't see what the problem is. I think Patrick's only trying to help. But I think it's like asking Why are you a Catholic? Why are you a Democrat? Aren't you afraid of hell? Things always get heated up quickly.

By Jina on Wednesday, April 5, 2000 - 10:49 pm:

    I probly should have read the finishing of your diary. I'm grossed out. Why that much?

By Sheila on Wednesday, April 5, 2000 - 11:13 pm:

    Dear Sarah,

    Are you coming to Bear Valley this year? If so, please call. I would love to see the remaining half of you again, and maybe this year I can meet you up there. I'm sure I won't have a job by then, so schedule is not a problem. Yay for you and yay for you again. The look and the feel are everything. Believe me, I know this stuff.

By Bell_jar on Wednesday, April 5, 2000 - 11:29 pm:

    i'm completely frightened by sarah's outlook. jesus sarah. i'm a hypocrite to say that no one is worth that much pain, but for you i feel it. someone completely awesome is going to fall in love with you and you with him/her and it's not going to matter. if you're beautiful on the inside it will illuminate to the out. you're stronger than your surface shows. i mean it's not strong to change for the people around you. it's strong to stand up and say here i am, i am beautiful, fuck you if you think different. i love myself and that's more important than anyone else's love.

By Gee on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 01:52 am:

    with the exception of one or two people, none of us have the right to judge Sarah or even much comment on what she does with her body, so shut up. her posting something personal doesn't mean everyone gets to jump on her.

    as for my question, I was thinking about love. is it the most important thing in life? people act like it is. They do anything for it. things they never thought they'd do. When I was in love I gave up everything, now I don't want to be in love again because I don't want to give up anymore.

By Mother of Pearl on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 02:54 am:

    If you're looking for love in a looking-glass world it's pretty hard to find

By BLAKESNAKE on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 05:21 am:

    Tom Green is the shit he can be such an idiot yet he is incredibly funny. I watch it when I get the chance. I still can't believe he got this guy to suck directly on a cows nipple in the middle of a grocery store. Then Tom rode the fucking cow out of there!

By MapleLeaf on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 10:24 am:

    I'm stepping aside to watch the train crash.

    But I must say I admire Sarah for what she has done and does..... Looks good on you!!!!

By J on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 11:01 am:

    I love Tom Green,did you see the one with Monica L.(made a million for a blow-job)?Where is everyone thinking Sarah had a boob job?If I remember she has cans of her own.I,m not getting any younger just holding out better but it,s not going to last forever.I checked out the plastic surgeons in Costa Rica.I would never have implants,I know some gals that have them,plus I think I said this before I had a vision once(when I was a 34B and thinking about it)of being in a nursing home drooling and not able to feed myself,and some orderly was feeding me soup and copping a feel at the same time.But when the time comes,I,m all for having things lifted and tucked.You don,t want to do this till you really have to though.Think Helen Gurley Brown,the living cadaver,you know her face has been lifted so often that she must have a knot on the top of her head.

By patrick on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 11:46 am:

    i don't think anyone is judging her Gee. We are talking about what she posted.....If offering our opinions and thoughts on the matter equates judgement then we should all shut up about everything. If the discussion is too much, then perhaps she shouldn't have posted. Thats fair right? I mean I would never jump on anyone's ass for discussing something I bring up about myself...

    ...being uncomfortable in one's own skin is a terrible thing.

By Dougie on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 01:06 pm:

    Tom Green is almost too painful to watch. He's hysterical though. The one thing that always surprises me is that the people he fucks with don't pop his skinny little ass back to kingdom come. I won't be surprised to hear it when he lands in the hospital for going just a little too far.

By J on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 01:11 pm:

    I,ll be one of the first ones to send him flowers and a get well card.

By patrick on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 01:18 pm:

    who the fuck is Tom Green?

By J on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 01:27 pm:

By patrick on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 02:57 pm:

    for clarification, i think sarah was talking to swine....at least about the 1am visit to the web cam

    my mom's name is sara

By cyst on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 03:53 pm:

    I love you, sarah. if it's not dangerous and you can afford it, then do it.

    new-found hot chickdom rocks. sort of. for a while. I guess.

    but, anyway, it sure beats the hell out of being fat and ugly!

By Bell_jar on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 04:43 pm:

    mutilating your body for the praise of society is better than weighing too much?

    and who said anything about ugly? i don't remember anyone saying that anyone was ugly? ugly doesn't equate with fat.

    anyway... in my naive-hippy-love-flower world no one is ugly. people look ugly when they do ugly things, but deep down they are super beautiful. kick me in the head because not everyone believes that. we'd all have flowers in our hair if we lived in amanda's world

By sarah on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 06:05 pm:

    being obese is mutilation of the body just as much as cosmetic surgery is. and i would define obese as fat being 50% or more of your total body weight. and that's generous, i believe, compared to how the medical community defines obesity, which in my opinion, is unrealistic and unfair.

    i was fat and generally healthy and generally happy, though i had gone many many years with undiagnosed hyperinsulimia. i got the diagnosis last march. now i'm thin, strong, lean, and much much much healthier. and happier because i'm healthier.

    fat does not equal ugly, unless you're an idiot and/or shallow and/or a victim of american culture. ugly equals ugly. beauty and ugly both come in many, sizes, shapes and colors.

    getting fit was not painful nor torturous nor difficult. i had been exercising 5-7 days a week for years and years before i started losing weight. all i did was get myself educated about nutrition. you have to teach yourself human nutrition and how it relates to your biology and physiology and, more specifically, your digestive system. that's what i did. i learned the food and eating trick, and the rest just fell into place. i got results.

    you should see my legs and arms and abs. i'm ripped. with clothes on i look like i weigh 130 but i actually weigh 150, because of the incredible amount of muscle mass i've gained. i've rediscovered my inner athelete. i'm on my way to being a competitor in state-wide outrigger paddling competitions. i run an 11 minute mile (faster for short distances) and recently finished my first 8k race at the end of february.

    but you know what? i did not lose weight and get fit for love. i did it because i could. because i found something that worked. and i made it the #1 priority in my life. above work, above boys, above friends and a social life and leisure. i rarely compromised my nutritional and exercise regimines in the last 12 months.

    what some of you people have failed to grasp is that my desire to have reconstructive cosmetic surgery and my desire to find love are not at all related, psychologically speaking. that's the association *you* people have made, not me.

    what i said was that as a fat person i had gone too long with love and acceptance and that i was tired of fighting.

    and i am tired of fighting. i got tired of trying to convince myself and others that being fat shouldn't matter. and i got tired of it long before i was able to lose weight. but before i lost weight, it's the only weapon i had. i always did have self esteem and confidence. i alwayd did think i was a beautiful and special person.

    my point is that nobody else did.

    people, ***in general***, do not love you if you are fat in the same way they love you if you are thin or medium. this is true of your family (right bell jar?) as well as your friends.

    well, a few love you the same. but i always had to try extra extra extra hard to break through the initial barrier of my weight.

    and we can sit here and say, yeah, but those people who love you when you are thin and hate you when you are fat, those people suck! what losers! they are destroying the social fabric of this world! they are discriminators and assholes.

    this is true. they are. in fact, in my opinion, a good lot of the people in this world are assholes. why? i don't know why. but a shame, because everyone has good in them and bad in them. and every day we wake up we have the choice to either be the good that's in us or we can be the bad that's in us. too many people choose to be the bad.

    and then there's people like Kevin. this amazing man i met in Austin. he's a genuinely good human being, as well as incredibly attractive, successful, funny, and probably one of the brightest, sharpest, most intelligent men i've ever met. he's the bomb. we met at an industry party, we were only vaguely familiar with each other's work. we ended up hitting off, in a way i've never known before.

    i'm so grateful that he was attracted to me, because i sure as hell had a lot of fun talking with him, exchanging ideas, and geeking out together all week. and later sitting in his jeep at 3 am making out like a high school kid. and when i spent the night at his house, he treated me with respect. he laid out on his bed a pair of flannel boxers and t-shirt for me to wear, and we cuddled up and fell asleep. and in the morning when i asked him why he didn't try to have sex with me (!!), he told me that he was very attracted to me but that when you move too fast you don't get a chance to grow emotionally.

    wow. what a mindfuck that was for me.

    and i am absolutely certain that my entire encounter with Kevin probably would not have happened even 50 lbs ago, let alone 100 lbs ago. does that make Kevin an asshole? because he wouldn't have been attracted to be back then?

    when i was fat, i would have answered that question with a vehement Yes. but now... i really don't have the answer to that question anymore.

    all i know is, when you are fat, you have to fight all the time. when you are thin, things come much easier to you. everything comes easier. love, jobs, success. you are more comfortable in airplane seats. men find you more attractive. people respect you more and take you more seriously. of course, it's ridiculous to think that your weight should have anything at all to do with these attributes, because essentially it does not. but that's not reality.

    and i'm not saying this is right. it's not. it's wrong wrong wrong. but just because it's wrong doesn't make it not true.

    why are you completely frightened by this outlook? jeezis, this is not MY world view. don't give it to me, it's not mine. this is not unique to my brain, my reality, my experience. this is the way the world works. period. and if you don't think that it's true, then you are lying to yourself.

    unfortunately the thin=beautiful paradigm is real. it is so deeply ingrained in our culture in ways so obvious and in other ways so subtle, that it's like fighting a demon ghost. and nobody understands that more than a fat person.

    and moreso, nobody understands that better than a fat person who got thin.

    and i'm going to have surgery not for love but because i deserve it. i'm already good, inside and out. and i'm going to be even better.

By heather on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 06:30 pm:

    you are tremendous, gigantic, huge- you could never have enough body to hold all of you

    you are beautiful, fantastic, unique

    to the rest of you:

    beauty on the inside. beauty on the outside
    it's all got to be there for you. don't lie to me

    i hope there are no gross misunderstandings concerning this post

By patrick on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 06:56 pm:

    ok then. lets take this a step further. I am confident that all of you, sarah, heather, cyst woudl call yourselves feminists, textbook definition, at the very minimum.

    So whatever happend to the feminist movement notion that altering your bodies was an appeasment to the male establishment? Giving in to the hype, the media induced sexist insitituiton? My wife is like all of you.....when i first met her she was coming out of school, writing for a feminist paper on campus, showed me radical t-shirts she used to make and sell.....and so on.

    NOW, in the last 3 years or so, she has seriously considered physical adulteration procedures, though none as radical....I don't get it. It seems many women have abandonded some of the principles they were screaming about just 10-20 years ago. I just don't get it.

    Can you please offer some sort of insight to this? Does this have anything to do with age? I suspect you are all around the same age as my wife..28ish...so this could be an interesting insight for me in talking with her about this subject and vice versa.

By sarah on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 08:14 pm:


    who are you to talk of feminism? you are someone who shoots nudes of thin women's body parts and you work in the porn industry. i hereby disqualify you from this discussion.


By sarah on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 08:16 pm:

    thank you, heather. thank you, gee.

    i love you too, cyst.

By patrick on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 08:24 pm:

    who am I to speak? I am a feminist by definition. I take pictures of what i take out of beauty, respect, admiration, being raised by a sister, a mother and grandmother, i have more in common with most women than you think. thats quite superficial of you to say sarah. If you have taken a minute to look at what i shoot, nudes are only 50% of what i shoot. Furthermore, they are nudes of consenting women, women like you, who have similar values as you, women who call themselves feminists..........you make it sounds as if i am somehow taking advantage...thats facetious of you (as usual towards me).....furthermore, i work in a porn industry for MEN.....get it....men on men..the great equalizer.By the way, you would be surprised to find out who our publisher....the publisher is a women, a lesbian a ex-hippie/feminist...she marched her ass off in the 70s and has probably done more for the women's movement than you ever have, but thats specualtion. and above all, look where she works now...so how that disqualifies me is above and beyond me.

    by the way you know sarah, i have never been able to pin point why you have the attitude you have towards me, i don't just don't get it. But you "disqualification" of me from this discussion is silly. You sound bitter.

By patrick on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 08:28 pm:

    by the way, speaking of skinny women that i shoot. it's not like i have fat women banging on the door to pose.

    on second thought, that REALLY sounds bitter.

    You barked up the wrong tree.


    going to go print pics of skinny nekid girls....

By sarah on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 08:35 pm:

    ok then. i disqualify you for being annoying and an idiot.

    and if you want your questions about feminism answered, go ask your publisher. she'll certainly have some materials for you, and maybe even some answers.

    and i'm not bitter, dear. on the contrary, i've never been happier.

By cyst on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 09:10 pm:

    I think I'm the one about whom it could be said that I was changing myself physically for the sake of love. not sarah.

    and that may be true. the cosmetic surgery I'd had all planned out since junior high, though. fuck that "I'm just fine the way I am" crap. I never believed it. it was a line I repeated in my head, but it never really took hold.

    sarah sounds way healthier than I am, mentally and physically. I don't care if I'm strong. I want to look frail.

    I have fully bought into the mass media's opinion about what looks good. tall and thin. and I don't fucking care if a bunch of men and women think that's bullshit. go ahead. think that. prefer short, dumpy women who wouldn't change a thing about themselves because they're already filled to the brim with self-appreciation. enjoy shopping at lane bryant. tell me I'm a gender traitor. take the last slice of pizza. happy fucking trails to you.

    I couldn't care less if my views got me classified as feminist or misogynist. I don't care if three guys asked me out at work last friday.

    so what if my hobby is trying on clothes in chi-chi boutiques and fucking ruining some rich bitch's day because she will never be six inches taller and she will never be able to wear that dress the way I can?

    life isn't fair. wah.

    I used to play pretend and think that the only guys I would ever want to go out with wouldn't care about what a woman looked like. hahahahhahahahahaha.


    hi, I'm a 6'3 woman and I have no problem finding good dates. what the fuck is that about? I'm not totally sure, but I know that this wasn't the case 50 pounds ago. (ok, I still did ok then, but now it's fucking crazy. so much attention. I think pretty much every guy I've ever wanted is now available to me. wow.)

    I don't know. sort of looking like a model (not that pretty but better-read) can be great fun. it opens doors. I can walk among men and know my presence will not be resented. I can take photos of strangers. I get away with so much fucking shit. all the time. I can get things done very easily. I can use the computer at the mall even though the guy knows I'm not interested in buying a porn filter. I get served first. I get free cosmetic surgery.

    it's just better this way.

    too bad it won't last. better enjoy it while I can.

By moonit on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 09:31 pm:

    prehaps fat chicks dont want to pose for you Patrick because once you posted here about how fat people should just get off their asses and do something.

    In other news my nana had a major heart attack yesterday, but shes okay today. Which is my reason for going to weight watchers and going to the gym as much as I can.

    I dont want to be super skinny, I want to be healthy and fit and strong. Which is what I think Sarah is.

By Jina on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 09:46 pm:

    I'm skinny. I'm glad what I eat doesn't show up on my thighs.

By Willie Dixon on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 10:22 pm:

By moonit on Thursday, April 6, 2000 - 11:26 pm:


By agatha on Friday, April 7, 2000 - 02:24 am:

    i'm not skinny, and i don't care. people are still nice to me regardless, and the men that i have liked have mostly liked me back, which is more than good enough for me.

    i have stretch marks, and a double chin, and cellulite, and varicose veins. i don't mind them very much, because i don't really have the time to notice them.

    i'm not sure how i ended up being not too cute, but not worrying so much about it. most women i know who are cuter than me seem to worry about it all the time. i'm glad that i don't worry about that stuff, because i'm sure that it's a bottomless pit.

    i would like to be strong, though.

By sarah on Friday, April 7, 2000 - 03:05 am:

    agatha, you're an alien being from Planet Perfection, which is why you lack neuroses and pretense.

    but what do you know anyway? you may not be skinny, but in no way could you be construed as fat. so hush up.

By Isolde on Friday, April 7, 2000 - 08:25 am:

    I never really considered cosmetic surgery that much--I never thought it was worth the effort. I haven't really been in this discussion since I don't get online often right now, but it was interesting to read over.
    I dont' think it's my place to criticize anyone who has cosmetic surgery, because maybe in twenty years or whatever I'll be wanting it too.
    I recognize the desire to be fit--I used to be really ripped, and then I sat around reading too much, and I've only recently been bothering to get into shape--it has nothing to do with beauty or dates or whatever, it's a desire to feel more in control of my body, much healthier, and, yes, happier. I don't know.
    I'll probably come up with something to say while I'm hitchhiking back to my cottage, and lament my missed oppurtunity.
    I like Patricks photos. I don't think he's objectifying women. Maybe that's just me. But he's making the nude into an art form, not something to masturbate over, and I appreciate that. He does things with light and dark and bodies that I could never hope to do with a camera, and I respect him for it.
    So bleh.

By patrick on Friday, April 7, 2000 - 12:36 pm:

    hey moonit, that was different context. It's not my all-out philosophy towards people overweight. Furthermore, each person has a different definition for overweight. If I recall a pic you posted of yourself moonit a while back, you are not fat in my definition, agatha is not fat in my definition, there are many voluptious women I find sexy and aethetically interesting to work with in my photography....some women on that Rubenesque link are fat, in my eyes. And when I say fat, I mean people upwards of 300lbs, people who have a hard time walking, people who have a heart conditions because of the strain it puts on them to walk to the mailbox, or the horrible diet. When I see a 300lb woman OR man in a grocery store waiting in line, with a shopping cart full of potato chips, sodas, twinkies and such all the while looking at a weight watchers insert in the latest issue of People magazine.... i am inclined to have that attitude. That was the context i meant that in moonit. My opinion of fat people has nothing to do with feminism or why people do or don't model for me. My photography all boils down to aethetics....i never know where they will lead me next.

    Furthermore my photography and women. Raise your hand if you think the female form is more aethetically pleasing than the male form. I suspect I would see alot of hands. Women who have modeled for me and those that haven't, in fact i have never met anyone who disagrees with this. This is why i photograph more womens bodies then men's, with the exception of my own body. Again, this has nothing to do with feminism.

    Finally, if i would have know my posing of this question would have gotten folks up in arms i would have refrained.....well, maybe not.
    sarah I have never intentionally been a dick to you and apologized the times that i did but i see now as good time as any to start, my opinion of you is permanently modified, i give up trying to be civil and polite. I am not an idiot, i am actually quite intelligent. I seem to have hit nerves with you and well thats fuel to my fire. I pose a question and look at the response I get...shoot the messanger why dontcha. Despite what you say sarah, i don' think you are as happy as you say, i think you have built a nice facade to hide in, to keep you distracted, keep your eyes on the prize, and well the prize is an illusion, created by your arch enemy, the one you gave up fighting. You are obviously uncomfortable in your own skin, so far as to start grafting and well thats truly sad and seeps outside. No skin procedure you do will ever take that "ugliness" away.

    agatha and her attitude is by far the healthiest here in my opinion. And in my eyes, her attitude extends her beauty outside and i must say dave is a very lucky guy.

    thanks cyst for actually answering the question i posed, in your own personal way which i find entertaining.

    taking a break, see ya around

By J on Friday, April 7, 2000 - 12:56 pm:

    Let,s not get our tits all tangled here,nobody got in the cage.Yet.Anyway I know what Patrick means,and if you get to weighing 300 pounds,all I can say is you really must be working hard to get that fat.I had a girlfriend whose mom was so fat she could only get in and out of the house through the back patio door,she was really huge,but a good person,both my friend and her brother were very thin.

By sarah on Friday, April 7, 2000 - 01:07 pm:

    patrick, love. haven't i made it abundantly clear ever since you appeared at sorabji that i couldn't care less what you think? i don't care about your opinions on *anything*, let alone me and what i think and feel and do with my body. you have proven yourself over and over to have one of the worst reading comprehension skills of anyone on this list - misconstruing, misinterpreting, and basically starting assinine discussions based on your unsound, vague, and faux-intellectual paradigm of life and the world you live in; conversations that mean nothing and go nowhere.

    and i'm serious when i say, please go talk to your publisher about feminism. please please please, for the love of god. go get answers.

    have a good day.

By sarah on Friday, April 7, 2000 - 01:32 pm:

    i'd like to pose a real question to the rest of the group.

    in what *specific* ways do you feel having cosmetic surgery is (or is not) a violation of the premises of modern feminism?


    in what *specific* ways do you feel the (gay or straight) erotic and pornographic photography industry does (or does not) influence and/or damange sexuality and body image, for both men and women?

    hint: in this case, it might help to understand the paradigm of modern feminism.

    you don't necessarily need to write your answers here, but please feel free to do so. even if you just want to think about it in your head, that's good enough for me.

By Margret on Friday, April 7, 2000 - 01:44 pm:

    oh, wait, there's a single paradigm for modern feminism?

    when did we vote on that, again?

    or did someone forget to tell me that i've been excommunicated?

By cyst on Friday, April 7, 2000 - 03:00 pm:

    my personal answers:

    I don't care.

    I don't care.


    I have a date tonight. I haven't kissed anyone in years. I've only received kisses. I need practice.

By sarah on Friday, April 7, 2000 - 03:00 pm:

    ding ding ding!!

    god that's so funny. i was going to write something like, "First up: Margret", but decided to just sit back and watch.

    anyway, i knew you'd get it.

    no matter how fat i am, you'll never be excommunicated. can i still come to your wedding?

By mistaswine on Friday, April 7, 2000 - 03:12 pm:

    you buy that?

    i got a bridge to sell ya.

By sarah on Friday, April 7, 2000 - 03:17 pm:

    why do you always get so bitter when i'm right? i'll admit it's fun to watch you squirm, but jeeezis man, get a grip.

By mistaswine on Friday, April 7, 2000 - 03:19 pm:

    i'm not squirming.

    i'm just being intimidated by your strengths.

By sarah on Friday, April 7, 2000 - 03:28 pm:

    is still that easy to get to you? god i love pushing your buttons. of all people around here, your reactions are the most satisfying. dare i say intriguing!

    because these blanket statements of your are so mysterous, with their implications of superior understanding and intelligence. yet you never actually say anything at all.

    ok, maybe it's not intriguing. maybe it's just that self righteous ego tripping thing you got going. they are cute little one-liners though. that i'll give you.

    love you, swine. always will.

By mistaswine on Friday, April 7, 2000 - 03:36 pm:

    you're so nutty.

    i bet if i kept posting you'd keep responding...

    it'd be like pong, except not as interesting.

By sarah on Friday, April 7, 2000 - 03:41 pm:

    actually, in hindsight here... what i should have written was "Margret, don't answer this" because you sorta blew it for my sadistic little fantasy.

    oh well.

By J on Friday, April 7, 2000 - 03:49 pm:

By Margret on Friday, April 7, 2000 - 04:03 pm:

    Uh, thanks J.

By jane on Friday, April 7, 2000 - 11:57 pm:

    swine was right earlier: what happens when you find out it wasn't the fat that was the problem, that maybe there are other issues for the person who wrote years ago about the excitement of getting on a plane to seattle to cheat on her ignorant lover?

    hope you're as happy as you stridently insist.

    and by the way: it takes much more than a condescending attitude towards patrick to qualify as an intellectual. if you've ever written anything that wasn't shallow, derivative, egocentric, or simply pathetic, it wasn't here.

By Jina on Saturday, April 8, 2000 - 12:17 am:

    I appreciate the body. I love the curvaciousness of having a woman's body, it's a wonderful thing to draw. It's mysterious. A LOT more soft porn paintings of nude women were drawn in the history of art than men. I can only think of one artist off hand that drew naked men and that was Pousan, (of course there were many more but..) and a handful of nude drawings by artists like Delacroix, Manet, Renoir, Dali, Hokusai, Gauguin, Munch. And it's obvious why. If I was a famous painter, it'd be naked chicks by me in the books too.

    Men have hellaciously erotic things about them as well. Take that indent on the inside of their hips. Not really 'hips', but that area. The torso is a WORK OF ART. Prime Example.

    What influences us to love one body part of the opposite sex more than the other? Why do some women have fetishes for a man's ass while for some it's the pectorials?

By sarah on Saturday, April 8, 2000 - 02:18 am:

    christop? is that you? looks like you from this distance. oh wait, no. not christop. christop's got a life. and he's not a coward.

    hey, i got a date tonight. gotta run. mmmmwah! love you all... have a great weekend!

By sarah on Saturday, April 8, 2000 - 02:33 am:

    btw, i just wanted to add one more thing before i leave the house, in case anyone should assume i think otherwise:

    it's ok to be fat. even though it's *really* hard, try not to listen to what the rest of the world thinks. love yourself and your body no matter what, because that's all you got. be who you are and be the good that is in you.

    all the rest is just surgery.

    ok, now i really gotta go. bye.

By agatha on Saturday, April 8, 2000 - 02:54 am:

    wow. harsh.

    by the way, sarah, i have lots and lots of other neuroses, my weight and appearance just happen not to be among them.

By cyst on Saturday, April 8, 2000 - 01:45 pm:

    hey, sarah, how was your date?

    we ate steak and drank cosmopolitans at a trashy bar then went (to someone else's) home and made out.

    there wasn't any hawaiian beach or anything, but it was pretty goddamn fun.

By sarah on Saturday, April 8, 2000 - 08:43 pm:

    frankly, julie, it was underwhelming. we were set up by a former colleague. he's a young social psych professor, though to his credit he's not drab nor overly cynical. a romantic beach date would have been nice. instead we ate chilli and drank beer, but i didn't laugh much. i don't know... he sorta reminded me of the milk drinker [who, btw, is now a good friend, which is how it should have been from the start]. so i bailed early and went to my friend Rae's house where all my girlfriends were hanging out making beaded jewelry and playing guitar. much more fun.

    part of the problem may have been that, when i got home from paddling practice - before going out last night - there was a message on my voicemail from Kevin. my focus was a little off.

    i called him back first thing this morning before aerobics class and we talked for 90 minutes. it made me Very Happy. the man rocks my world. fact is, nobody else may stand a chance in hell compared to him. we both like The Tick and Coupland and old motown; and the level of geekdom we can achieve together is unsurpassed. also, i don't think any guy has made me laugh more. and i'm not talking about that polite, girlish giggly type laugh when the guy's trying really hard to be charming and cute and you want to laugh because it's the appropriate thing to do. i'm talking like deep, belly aching laughs.

    he'll be coming to visit soon, i suspect.

    i gotta go eat some meat now. glad you had fun last night! if you ever come to hawaii i'll take you to this place downtown honolulu that serves up the best goddamn cosmopolitans you've ever had.
    and you'll wear your bitch boots, i hope.

By J on Sunday, April 9, 2000 - 12:35 am:

    Sarah,I don,t think it,s even a man, woman issue,men get hair transplants,pec implants,viagra,some dye their hair too,it,s a self esteem(God,I wish I could remember how to spell).When you feel good about yourself it,s all good.I aready said when the time comes I,ll have everything lifted,as high as I can.

By simon on Sunday, April 9, 2000 - 12:26 pm:

    it's almost as if cyst and sarah are merging...

By sarah on Sunday, April 9, 2000 - 01:41 pm:

    that's impossible. no matter how much sugery i have, i'll always be short and dumpy, whereas cyst is anything but that.

By R.C. on Sunday, April 9, 2000 - 09:33 pm:

    Methinks Jane (& Hi to you -- welcome to the Sorabji Asylum) pretty much scored a bullseye on 4/7. But hey -- that's just One Woman's Opinion.

    But Sarah/Pls. allow me to offer Some Practical Advice:

    I thought you were only going for a breast-reduction. Having scanned yr comments here/it sounds like you're up for a lot more major & serious surgery than just reducing the size of yr breasts (assuming you plan to have them lifted as well/otherwise what's the point?).

    I know nothing abt the state qualifying rules for cosemtic surgeons in Hawaii. But if there was ever a time when it was worth spending a few extra bucks for a plane tkt. & a hotel/this is it. I STRONGLY suggest that you fly back to Cali & get yr surgery done in LA. Cali. has more board-certified plastic & cosmetic surgeons than any other state in the country. If yr surgeon isn't board certified by the American Society of Plastic & Reconstructive Surgeons (http://www.plasticsurgery.org/),then find one who is.

    Also/make sure you meet w/yr anaesthesiologist f-2-f BEFORE yr surgery & give him/her a thorough once-over. Make the anesthesiologist PROMISE you that he/she will remain in the O.R. during the ENTIRE TIME you're in surgery. Most people who die on the operating table don't die from surgical screw-ups --they die from problems w/anaesthesia. Believe it or not/surgeons can leave clamps/scissors/all kinds of hardware inside yr body accidentally/& you'll survive the surgery just fine. But there is very little margin-for-error when it comes to anaesthesia/so check out yr anaesthesiologist's credentials thoroughly. Don't sign the surgical consent form until they fill in the name of the anaesthesiologist AND give you a chance to meet w/him/her personally.

    If you're talking abt having a breast-reduction liposuction on yr upper arms & an tummy tuck + abdominal liposuction (which is the only way to remove all the excess skin you mentioned & give you the 6-pk. you crave) then you're not talking abt an office procedure -- you'll need to be hospitalized for such extensive surgery. And it won't be overnite- - you'll be in-hopsital for at least 3 days after such radical surgery. And the recovery period will be HELL. The excercise you're so addicted to will be off-limits for at least 4 wks. You'll be practically bed-ridden/which means you'll have to have someone to look after you for at least the 1st week. And you will be in SERIOUS PAIN for the 1st 4-5 days after surgery. You'll look & feel like you were hit by a train. And you will probably have some scarring -- abdominoplasty always leaves some telltale scars. Which is why I've never understood why those who are as body-con as you put themselves thru such serious mutilation in the 1st place. Anyone who sees you nakes will know that you've had work done/that yr perfectly-toned & sculpted body wasn't just the efforts of yr own hard work at the gym. You may have excess skin & stretch-marks now/but those aren't nearly as glaring as a big-ass scar across yr abdomen. So you might wanna think abt that.

    Lastly/make yr surgeon show you before -&-after pictures -- of his best & worst outcomes. And ask the surgeon flat-out if he/she has ever lost a patient on the table. It sounds rude/but this is yr life you're talking abt. Sure/surgery is risky. Anything can happen when you're under the knife. But I wdn't let a plastic surgeon who'd lost a patient during the operation cut into me/I don't care what kind of excuses he makes for why they died. Most of these folks are into it for the $$/which is why they perform breast augmentations on teenagers who haven't finished growing yet/& rhinoplasties on young girls who might learn to like their noses by the time they're in their 20's & have gained a little more confidence in themselves. They only want yr money & for you not to sue them. That's basically the bottom line for cosmetic surgeons. They're not loking to cure diesases or disfigurement or make people well. You aren't sick, Sarah -- just overly-concerned w/yr physical appearance.

    For the cost of the work you're talking abt having done ($15-20k easy -- & you're a fool if you go looking for a bargain) you cd afford a downpayment on a house. Or a graduate degree. You cd buy a lot of things that will ultimately improve yr quality of yr live a lot more than plastic surgery will. Becuz ultimately/as much as you protest that it's not abt finding a man to love you/I think that's precisely what you're hoping for.

    And altho' there is no love lost btwn us/the aforementioned is the same advice I wd give my own sister.

    Now/for some Impracticable But Still Pertinent Advice:

    Last weekend/The Chef (who is 29/gorgeous/makes considerably more $$ than I do/& treats me like a goddess -- altho none of that will convince me that we're Right For Each Other) had me over for a Farewell dinner of sorts at this present residence. The owners he was house sitting for were due to return from Hong Kong this wk. They had already offered him the guesthouse if he wanted to contine staying w/them/but he declined. He's off to Miami after getting a tip that they're looking for a sous-chef at Jennifer Lopez's restaurant down there. He left on Wed. & I miss him too much already.

    But while we were having our usual post-prandial cognacs on the terrazo last Sat./I decided I wanted to go skinny dipping. And I asked him if he'd mine if I disrobed & went for a swim. (The back of the hse. he's been at since Dec. overlooks the gulf... private beach/the whole 9). But I asked 1st becuz I've already made it plain/after one passionate suck-face session/that I was not abt getting physically or romantically entangled w/someone I knew was too young to be able to offer me what I want from a man & a relationship. And I wasn't abt sending mixed-siganls that might jeopardize our friendship. But he said it was no thing/so I disrobed & walked off into the Gulf in the moonlight.

    And he soon followed me/naked as a jaybird/& we swam in silence for a bit. But my craving for the profiteroles that he'd made which were waiting in the fridge soon overcame me/so I went back to the hse.

    Now/at 39/I'm sure I haven't got the kind of body that cd rival yours/Sarah. I've never had kids & I am not a gym rat/but the extent of my excercise program is walking 3-4x a wk.for 45-60 min. & doing yoga at home in order to keep in shape. I refuse to spend my hard-earned $$ on gym memberships which are useless unless you have a trainer there to walk you thru the proper useage for each piece of equipment. Plus I detest the hyper-competetive atmosphere that most gyms project on their memners. I'm 5'9/156 lbs w/generous hips & thighs. My legs are fairly well-defined from walking & yoga/but I'm sure my muscle-tone can't compare to yours. I've got a big round ass you cd stand a glass of champagne on/which I am very proud of/becuz the Brothers like it as much as I do. And I was not the least bit self-conscious abt disrobing in front of this Black Adonis/10 yrs. younger than me/becuz I wasn't trying to entice him w/my body. But more importantly/becuz my body is a machine that serves me well. It allows me to do all the things I want to do in my life. It can walk briskly for more than an hour (wearing ankle weights) w/out getting winded/or for a couple of hours w/out tiring. These less-than-taught arms can lift & stretch & carry anything I need them to/& I don't care if my triceps are a bit flabby. I don't have a gut or a double chin/altho' I am sure the gentle concave curve that rests below my navel wd horrify someone like you/I like that little protuberance. It's not big enuf to make my pants fit too tight (except when I have my period) or to get in my way when I'm doing my yoga poses & folding my torso down onto my legs. But when I look at it every morning as I step into my underwear/it reminds me that I have curves where a woman is supposed to have curves/& that a woman's curves are a beautiful thing.

    And apparently/The Chef thought so too/becuz when he came out fo the water as I was drying myself on the terazzo/he was in full salute! And we both had a good laugh abt it. And he did have the decency to grab a towel & cover himself. But later/when we were both fully dressed & sitting on the couch oustide looking out at the Gulf (have I ever told y'all how mich I adore real furniture outdoors? I wonder how rich you have to be to buy rattan furniture w/great, thick cotton-covered cushions/& leave it outdoors all year long...) eating our profiteroles unde the stars/The Chef turned to me & said. "Youv'e got the most magnificent body I have ever seen. You really shd show it off more than you do..." And he went on to profess his grand passion for me/& his desire for me to quit my (new) job & move w/him to Miami/becuz he suddenly realized that "I've been walking around w/this fabulous Black pearl in my pocket & didn't have sense enuf to know it until now." And he offered to give me $5000 cash money/so I wdn't have to worry abt paying my maintenance & utilities & homewoners insurance/or planefare home/while I was away in Miami w/him. And he promised me everything I've ever wanted a man to promise me. But he was young & foolish & terribly sweet/I am too old & wise d not to know that I've played that scene before & know that it always ends badly for the leading lady.

    So I turned him down. Altho' I did give him a very nice set of Pratesi sheets for his new digs in Miami/wherever he ends up staying.

    That kind of reaction from a gorgeous man/dear Sarah/is something you can't buy w/plastic surgery. It comes w/being nearly 40 & not giving a fuck what others think of you (which is one of the many belssing of Getting Older). It comes from learning to live in & w/yr body & loving it -- despite all it's flaws. I've lost 25 bls. since moving to FL/which is nothing compared to the 100 lbs. you lost. I was never obese/as you apparently were/so perhaps I never had to deal w/ the discrimination & difficulties one faces from being severely overweight. But as a Sister/I live in a world where Jennifer Anniston/Cameron Diaz/Cindy Crawford/are the male ideal/& I have never & will never fit that mold. Even amongst the Brothers/it's the Toni Braxton's & Nia Longs that you see hanging from the walls of most men's bedrooms. So I know what it's like to feel you are not attractive enuf/good enuf/desirable enuf/to be worthy of a good man's attentions & affections.

    But I wdn't let someone slice-&-dice me for the sake of meeting some impossible ideal. Becuz if a brother like Marcus can like my body as much as I do/I've got it going on in ways that even I never dreamed possible.

    And you probably do to. If you'll just stop valuing yr body so much mroe than the woman who lives in it. And stop belng so defensive towards those who point out that fact.

    Anyway/'Fail Safe' is on/so I gotta go. Becuz I'm all abt catching some great talent on LIVE TELEVISION!

By sarah on Sunday, April 9, 2000 - 10:20 pm:

    again, you misunderstand. i'm not the one who values my body more than the woman who lives in it. i've always valued my mind and spirit just as much if not more than my body.

    it's the rest of society that didn't.

    but anyway, thanks for the advice about cosmetic surgery. it's not going to cost as much as you estimated because hawaii has A LOT of plastic surgeons and they need to compete for patients. also, i'm lucky. my insurance is going to pay for 1/2 of all the procedures.

    i've looked at photos. i know what i'm in for. i know there will be pain and probably some scars. it's ok with me. i feel, after careful consideration, that i've chosen the better of two evils, or the better of two scars. but again, i really do appreciate you taking the time to give your thoughts and advice.

    also, i'm glad you have a nice man that appreciates you. you sound very happy too :)

By heather on Monday, April 10, 2000 - 12:29 am:

    i guess i never realized that graduate school would set aside any plastic surgery possibilities in the near future- but i guess it will. oh well.

    i have small scars on my abdomen from my gall bladder surgery- are they somehow less 'bad' then if the doctor had been changing the shape of me?

    rc. i don't understand. do you think there's a possibility that you're being too careful? that much resistance to that much good is suspicious to me. (but then i have no strength of resistance to stuff like that)

    a question:
    does anyone know then, does skin tighten up with time and more exercise? shouldn't it?

    my mom. my- 'be comfortable, don't worry about how you look'- mother, told my sister that she wanted plastic surgery this past christmas.
    it makes me think that she's afraid of something and that makes me sad.

By sarah on Monday, April 10, 2000 - 04:30 am:

    i had a full ride to grad school and got my masters already. but that is neither here nor there.

    i wrote to my mom about the breast redux thing and she wrote back: "big breasts have been the curse of the women in our family and the delight of our husbands. your cousin wren had 3 reductions but her breast tissue just keeps regenerating itself. good luck."

By Margret on Monday, April 10, 2000 - 10:21 am:

    I'm not afraid of platic surgery.

    I'm afraid of the creepy plastic surgeon cyst somehow located.


By semillama on Monday, April 10, 2000 - 01:39 pm:

    jesus, I knew that something like this would happen if I left.

    Sarah: go for it. I've read about the skin thing. If you need it, do it. and to the right guy, scars can be sexy. I've always thought that it's the so-called imperfections that make women beautiful.

    R.C.: you should get paid to write advice columns.

By R.C. on Monday, April 10, 2000 - 07:34 pm:

    Unfortunately/skin doesn't tighten up w/out a nip-&-tuck job. Sad but true. Which is why Sarah wants surgery. Losing 100 lbs. will leave you w/a lot of loose excess skin.

    I don't think I was overly-cautious abt The Chef. I was sorely tempted/sure. But in the back of my mind/something kept telling me "You know this one's not gonna be around for the long haul, Miss Thang... Are you really old enuf for yr wants not to hurt ya?" [We older chicks have these kind of internal dialogues often/becuz yr Common Sense simply refuses to sit down & shut up once you pass 35. Generally/it must be drugged or drunk into submission.)

    And the fact is/I know I am not. I know I wasn't up for a few months of hot sex/then Hasta la Vista, baby. I want a big, long-running (at least a year) epic romance w/somebody fabulous. Hey -- I've been on the bench for too long & I think I really do deserve a 1st-rate affair. So I know that settling for anything less than that was prolly gonna piss me off/or worse/leave me w/a broken heart.

    And lo-&-behold/he's in Maimi now. With no return date in mind. But he's emailed me nearly every day & we've spoken on the phone twice. Who knows -- if he decides he simply can't live without me & comes crawling back in a couple of wks./maybe I'll finally shut my brain off & succumb.

    But someone will have to scrape his reamins off the ceiling when I'm done! ;)

    And Sarah -- pls. get yr Mom to come & stay w/you during yr post-op period. If there's one time in a woman's life when she needs mommy-style TLC/it's after surgery.

    Good luck -- I hope you love the results.

By J on Monday, April 10, 2000 - 07:54 pm:

    It really depends on what kind of mother you have,I lost it again today and told her she needs to be in managed care(she does),she hung up on me.Good a good excuse to not having to the crazy mother from hell.

By J on Tuesday, April 11, 2000 - 01:51 am:

    I meant not having to see the thing,mom

By BLAKESNAKE on Tuesday, April 11, 2000 - 03:24 am:

    What debt have u collected Semillama, Bel_jar said he was in your debt-not I-so what did u mean by that statement? Whats with this evil laughter fading away shit? Must be a mistake.

By J on Tuesday, April 11, 2000 - 03:38 am:

    I think Sem saw my mom and it pushed him off the edge,thank God it skipped a generation,I have always been there for my kid,s.Blakesnake...pay attention.

By sarah on Tuesday, April 11, 2000 - 04:11 am:

    thanks Sem. you rock out the mostest.

By semillama on Tuesday, April 11, 2000 - 12:51 pm:

    I try. That's all one can do.

By patrick on Tuesday, April 11, 2000 - 01:25 pm:




    (soaking that one up)

    OK, so the bride of Frankenstein is telling me my intellect is faux? Conversations that mean nothing and go nowhere? MY GOD!!! Have you reread your masturbatory website recently Sarah? And you tell me my conversations are meaningless? Don't get me wrong, I am not one to knock masturbatory websites, I gots one myself, but to call my words meaningless. As if YOU are the definitive word on the matter.

    I don't proofread, life's too short....screw me eh?

    fucking A

    oh wait. she has a masters degree. I didn't finish college.

    she must be right

    damn my feeble brain

    you can almost see the hamster spinning right now just contemplating those profound words.

    she told me

    I just love the judgments I receive at this place. I am judged, labeled and insulted in ways I have NEVER been in reality. Friends, former friend, ex-girlfriends, hell even a wife scorn.

    Never has my mind been called "faux".

    So I am left to one of two assessments of Sarah's harsh (who is harsh agatha, jane or Sarah?) words. 1) She is so profound and insightful that she has seen beyond those around me, those close to me, those who know me. Sarah must have a red phone to my brain, she is so intellectual* she must be right!!!!! 2) She is completely full of shit, and making me a target, and enemy, a vent for something she hates in her. Well, leave that part for her therapist, and just stick with the full of shit part.

    A very close friend, who had just graduated college with an English degree, once said, in a conversation regarding intellect, to a young, naive, and slightly arrogant skateboarder......

    "I just finished school and I am no smarter than Will (pointing to another close friend, who never graduated high school). Intellect is relative. I would never say I am smarter than anyone"

    The irony in that statement is beautiful.

    This isn't fun anymore

By agatha on Tuesday, April 11, 2000 - 02:39 pm:

    i agree with that last statement, patrick. i'm getting bored.

By J on Tuesday, April 11, 2000 - 03:04 pm:

    Swine, could you bring my mom here?

By sarah on Tuesday, April 11, 2000 - 04:00 pm:

    i didn't want to have to do this. *sigh*. my apologies to agatha.


    "I take pictures of what i take out of beauty, respect, admiration, being raised by a sister, a mother and grandmother, i have more in common with most women than you think"

    therefore patrick is a feminist.

    "nudes are only 50% of what i shoot"

    is a sound justification for publishing photos of thin women's body parts while calling oneself a feminist.

    "Furthermore, they are nudes of consenting women, women like you, who have similar values as you, women who call themselves feminists..........you make it sounds as if i am somehow taking advantage...thats facetious of you (as usual towards me)"

    even if i was implying that you were a) taking photographs of unconsenting women and b) taking advantage of them, neither of which was written nor implied, how could that be defined as "facetious"?

    "i work in a porn industry for MEN..... get it.... men on men.. the great equalizer"

    therefore you can be a feminist just as long as you work in *gay* pornography.

    correlate: because it is homoerotic pornopgrahy, it equalizes whatever negative implications can be made about the porn industry and/or being employed in the porn industry.

    "the publisher is a women, a lesbian a ex-hippie/feminist...she marched her ass off in the 70s"

    my publisher is a feminist, therefore it is ok to work in the gay pornography industry.

    my publisher marched her ass off in the 70s, therefore she is a feminist.

    "so how that disqualifies me is above and beyond me."

    uh huh.

    "by the way you know sarah, i have never been able to pin point why you have the attitude you have towards me, i don't just don't get it."

    how about now? do you get it now?

    "But you 'disqualification' of me from this discussion is silly."

    fine then, patrick. please forgive me. perhaps i've indeed misinterpreted. by all means, have at it. enlighten me.

By Nate on Tuesday, April 11, 2000 - 04:20 pm:

    i like porno.

By patrick on Tuesday, April 11, 2000 - 04:44 pm:

    sorry to do what? what exactly are you doing?

    Webster's facetious-"joking or jesting in appropriately." I have always interpreted the term in a more negative manner than which it's defined in a dictionary.

    Perhaps spiteful would have been better suited there.

    Feminism has NOTHING to do with a gay-male pornography. You are dealing with acts between the same sex, of which is not female. It's an oxymoron to even mention the two in the same sentence. My publisher recognizes this and her job is not a conflict of interest for her personally.

    if you want to stray from the topic of feminism and female aesthetical/cosmetical mutilation to pornography and it's negative implications then we can, just say the word.

    But the "erotica" on your website is different right?

    Jesus christ, i have to crack a dictionary to have a conversation with an intellectual.


    Feminism-theory of political, economical and social equality of the sexes.

    I am a feminist in this definition.

    My up bringing had alot to do with how I view women, so YES, that played a huge role.

    How I earn a living has nothing to do with my personal values, or at least very little. I distribute magazines. If I were a writer or a photographer for them then we may have a discussion here.

    (do you really want to get into all of this anecdotal info? I will be happy to, you know I would)

    My photography is about aesthetics. Period. It may be fantasy, it may be reality, but nonetheless, it's about me and what I find aesthetically pleasing to MY eye. It's about me and my relationship with whom i am photographing. It has nothing to do about breaking a woman down to her sheer body parts or objectifying a pair of breasts. Unfortunately my site only displays about 20% of my work. I do not publish photos of thin women's bodies. I publish photos of women close to me, who let me into their lives, I develop a relationship, a relationship of which I convey through film. The fact that they are skinny in your eyes is really coincidental and irrelevant. My photography is above and beyond your attempts to question my position on feminism.

    I am surprised, as an intellectual you don't see the irrelevance of this. Being the intellectual you are, i have to wonder why i am defending my position on feminism to you.

    Need I spell out verbatim what I think of the female species. I have I not made it clear through my various posts of my subservient nature to my wife, my indefinite fondness of her strength, beauty, body and mind. Despite my fuck ups, my failures, my weaknesses, nothing remains more constant or true. Same goes for my grandmother. My mother and i were a little rocky for while because she was single working mom and was hard on me, but that is changing over time? Need i mention to you my appreciation for single moms who manage to raise kids? Need I explain all of this to convince you I am a feminist, that my opinion in the matter is just as valid as yours or anyone else's and my art and my job have no deterrence value from being able to participate?

    Are you really questioning whether or not I can be a feminist?
    Since you are far more intellectually superior than I, I am fucking amazed i am having to go through this.

    *Spell checked for intellectual integrity

By patrick on Tuesday, April 11, 2000 - 04:46 pm:

    ironically, i was introduced to this site and the first thread i recall speaking on was about female genital mutilation. And here we are (were) on a similar topic, this time, consentual mutilation of the female body.


By mistaswine on Tuesday, April 11, 2000 - 04:51 pm:

    ever see "three the hard way"?

    triple-entry extravaganza.

    now *that's* my idea of feminism.

    why don't you people take a break from your cyber-wank and check out some radiskull.

    it's far more interesting.

    trust me.

By sarah on Tuesday, April 11, 2000 - 05:02 pm:

    Feminism-theory of political, economical and social equality of the sexes.

    If you are indeed a feminist according to this definition, then I ask you to please outline in detail the specifics of the political, economical and social equity theory to which you adhere.

    "if you want to stray from the topic of feminism and female aesthetical/cosmetical mutilation to pornography and it's negative implications then we can, just say the word."

    no, i do not wish to stray from this topic.

    let's begin, shall we? first, please tell me why cosmetic/aesthetic surgery is now considered "mutilation"?

    then, please explain how having cosmetic surgery for the purposes of removing excess skin after massive weight loss violates the feminist theory you've detailed for us.

    i think that's about it. other than that, your latest has proven to me beyond doubt that you are indeed an intellectual. just clear up that last little bit and we'll be square.

By patrick on Tuesday, April 11, 2000 - 06:01 pm:

    you know swine I have been having lots of fun here

    sarah, i didn't think i would actually have to back up and qualify how i am a feminist to you. I find it exhausting how I have to qualify myself to YOU to participate in a conversation. In fact i don't want to.

    I really just wanted to address the part where you called me a faux-intellectual and how I never say anything with meaning.

    Maybe it's the philly cheese steak settling in. I am done here for now anyway.

By patrick on Tuesday, April 11, 2000 - 06:16 pm:

    thanks you swine, thats a great place considering i have exhausted newgrounds.

By Nate on Tuesday, April 11, 2000 - 06:57 pm:

    pornography is socially equiv. to monogamous marriage.

By semillama on Tuesday, April 11, 2000 - 07:12 pm:

    Get more bass ...fast!

By sarah on Monday, April 17, 2000 - 02:47 am:

    i have been extraordinarly tired for the past 2-3 weeks. which is very unlike me. usually i need about 6 hours of sleep a night, and i can work all week and party all weekend. but lately all i can do is work, work out, and sleep.

    and it sucks because i can't get anything else done, like taxes and laundry and freelance deadlines and shit.

    and i'm not used to not having a lot of energy.

    but the tiredness is so extreme that i've begun to worry that something is physically wrong with me.

    and then i had a thought today...

    i was thinking that i'm still losing weight - at this point without even trying to. and my body fat is getting pretty low. not dangerously low, but certainly lower than it's been in the last 8 years. i think i'm reaching cocain addict weight, or close to it (but with way more muscle mass).

    so then i was thinking about how fat stores up all kinds of toxins. and now i'm starting to burn away fat that's been in my body for a really fucking long time. fat that's seen a lot of years, a lot of pollution, a lot of pesticides, and a whole lot of drugs. and i'm wondering if, as it burns off, if bunches of toxins are being released in my body, which is making me so tired and weakening my immune system a bit.

    i honestly don't think i'm tired because i've lost too much fat. hahahah wouldn't that be nice. but no.

    do you think it's possible that i'm poisoning myself somehow? or am i just making this shit up in my head?

    all i know is i'm drinking about 5-6 liters of water a day just in case.

By Nate on Monday, April 17, 2000 - 10:43 am:

    maybe you're tired because you're stressed?

    i've been tired all the time myself.

    i'm certainly not losing weight. but i changed jobs and gained a roommate.

    and the market tanked.

By mistaswine on Monday, April 17, 2000 - 11:48 am:

    i took a walk up broad street through the financial district this morning before coming into work.

    talk about stressed out people.

    no smiles, no chatter, none of the customary bullshit and swagger.

    just a whole lotta depressed suits twitching and moaning in unison.

    i don't have a dime invested in the market.

    this morning i feel like a million bucks.

By patrick on Monday, April 17, 2000 - 12:05 pm:

    as of friday...my 401k was on the up and up over the last quarter........can't complain too much, except the one mutual fund my mother in law invested for the wife and i bombed over the last year. Word to the wise, Oakmark mutuals suck large pus filled something something....

    thats irrelavent

    there is something there swine....those market peeps....the market trends....you could be on to some sort of bizarre documentary.....noting expressions based on market action......excellent soruce for something interesting

    i have been meaning to cut my drinking and smoking...at least the cheeba anyway, and beer. red wine doesn't contribute to the gut so much.....some would call me a lush

    that has me tired.....

    stress does some amazing things.

By Bell_jar on Monday, April 17, 2000 - 12:38 pm:

    i have gained a new outlook on life and today in the mess of things i realize that things are going to be alright. the room seems to be on fire around me, and i can either huddle in the middle and die from the smoke or jump through the fire, risk getting burned and escape to where i can actually breath. i am sad that people in suits are walking around in grouchy moods.

    i am giving away my posessions as people are needing them. yesterday i gave away my computer. i felt liberated. last summer i was super sad so i bought a new car. brand new. all the goodies. it didn't make me happy. well... the air conditioning made me a little happy, but i'm starting to feel as if things are just that, things. i'm no longer attached.

    feel free, give away something you thought you needed today.

By semillama on Monday, April 17, 2000 - 01:02 pm:

    less of me to go around. last three weeks, lost 3 pounds, 1 1/2 inch around the waist, gained 1/2 inch on thighs (they always respond the quickest for me) and 1/4 inch on bi's. No gains yet on the chest. What I like about my current program is that the workouts are always geared towards improvement. It's all about how intense you work out, not about how fast or far you can run, or how much you can bench.

    Anyway, if i can keep this up, I think i will reach my main goal of losing the spare tire.

    Sarah, you should go to the doctor and get a blood test. you're right about the stored toxins. They have to go somewhere when the fat disappears, and I have read about people who have failed drug tests several years after they stopped using, because of recent weight loss. You might want to scale back for two weeks on your workouts, just go for mild maintenance stuff like walks and light weight single set weight lifting. When your body says you need a break, you need a break. After teh rest period, you'll be even more rarin' to go in your workouts, and probably will come back stronger as well.

    I don't think it's stress, though. Usually, when you are stressed, intense workouts are the best way to burn off the stress chemicals in your body.

    good luck with it all.

By Meatless wonder on Monday, April 17, 2000 - 01:29 pm:

    watch out for the growth hormones,antibiotics and who knows waht else is in the meat-based fast-food . . . .uh, "all you care to eat" specials. They fatten up the calf and the chemicals or hormones get passed on to the consumer. Youngsters maturing at early ages. . . . doi! (especially weird is the odd habit of drinking real milk! heavily concentrated with hormones and preservatives. In the animal kingdom, once weaned stay weaned... nothing like ice cold vanilla soy milk and croissants, comes in powdered form to mix with spring water)

By MW on Monday, April 17, 2000 - 01:40 pm:

    "Milk is the most cruel drink (unless one considers the blood drinking of some tribes). Bovine mothers are separated from their babies with electric shocking rod.
    Cows' milk, cheese, yoghurt and ice cream are dangerous for human consumption, particularly

By heather on Monday, April 17, 2000 - 02:06 pm:

    my great grandfather didn't have an electric shocking rod- he just went out and milked a cow.

By mistaswine on Monday, April 17, 2000 - 02:09 pm:

    electric shocking rod.


    i think i may have to invest in a new toy.

By agatha on Monday, April 17, 2000 - 03:17 pm:

    i thought you already had one of those, swine.

    sarah, go see a doctor. quick.

By Demented on Monday, April 17, 2000 - 04:42 pm:

    " Take the Quiz

    1.Milk is
    a) a small town in Peru.
    b) a leading candidate for the 2.Milk is
    a) only for pirates
    b) only for kids
    3.If I take calcium supplements, I
    a) am not able to wear socks.
    b) can communicate with fish
    4.The milk I drink with my coffee and cereal
    a)is evil and must be destroyed.
    b)gives me all the calcium I need.
    c)laughs at me when I leave the room."

By mistaswine on Monday, April 17, 2000 - 04:50 pm:


    i was gonna order the 300,000 volt stun baton last year when i was considering going to mardi gras for vacation, but i decided against it after i realized i'd most probably only succeed in shocking the living shit outta myself when i was all liqoured up.

    but goddamn if i don't have an affinity for high-powered electro-shock toys.

    maybe i'll compromise with a happy medium and just get the tazer instead.

By patrick on Monday, April 17, 2000 - 05:13 pm:

    i have always found the tazer car protection system amusing. It sends a fat jolt through the steering wheel when your car is broken into.

    yeah thats the one for me...

    driving home drunk.....the system malfunctions something horrible

    dribble and slobber mouthed upside down on the shoulder of the freeway

By sarah on Monday, April 17, 2000 - 06:51 pm:

    last time i went to the doctor because of fatigue, my insurance wouldn't cover the office visit because apparently fatigue isn't a legitimate health concern.

    and i don't have an HMO even.

    besides, my new insurance doesn't kick in for a month i think, so it will have to wait anyway.

    i also need glasses. can't see shit anymore.

    fuck, maybe i'm just getting OLD!

By sarah on Monday, April 17, 2000 - 08:01 pm:

    i just came up with a new dieting tip.

    only buy or wear clothes that are just barely too tight, in only a slightly uncomfortable way. esp if they're too tight around your middle. this works as the most effective appetite suppressant ever. really.

    so far the only theory i've come up with for why it works is that maybe it tricks your body by making you think you just ate a whole load of food, like that feeling you get after thanksgiving dinner when you have to let loose the top button on your button fly 501s.

By cyst on Monday, April 17, 2000 - 10:32 pm:

    I'm gaining weight again.

    obsessive crush isn't exactly fading but stabilizing. christ. what am I going to do now.

    plain oatmeal with skim milk
    a 200-cal. protein bar
    a slice of birthday cake
    a 500-cal. chicken burrito
    a little sushi platter

    later I'll probably have some plain, non-fat yogurt with some frozen raspberries and maybe a pear or banana

    my birthday is on friday. my friend is coming. I have to look really good. I will go to the gym every day.

By Antigone on Monday, April 17, 2000 - 11:10 pm:

    I was such a good boy today: 1/4 lb of mixed
    veggies, tofu, and black beans. I got home and my
    girlfriend had purchased a package of fudge
    covered oreos. Of course, I had to eat half of
    them so she wouldn't eat all of them. Yesterday
    she wanted to get a box of fruity pebbles, and I
    gave in. They tasted great.

    I ain't buyin' her no more shit, tho.

By NZA on Monday, April 17, 2000 - 11:54 pm:

    Happy birthday cyst - my b-day is Friday too!

By droopy on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 12:03 am:

    breakfast: 2 aspirin; toast with butter and honey; 3 cups coffee, black.

    midmorning refresher: one jigger scotch.

    lunch: 2 martinis; hamburger with lettuce, tomato, mustard, and jalapenos; french fries with salt and vinegar; 2 cups coffee, black.

    cocktail hour: 2 jiggers scotch.

    dinner: 2 martinis; 3 quail, braised in butter; 1/2 cup pilaf; steamed vegetables; 2 cups coffee, black.

    night cap: 4 jiggers scotch.

    i keep to this diet religiously. i generally feel healthy and happy. occasionally i break into song.

By heather on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 12:17 am:

    want to know what i ate today?

    instant grits

    (diet coke)

    ritz cheese-n-crackers from the vending machine

    raspberry/lime flavored water

    a twix

    (i'm not gaining weight yet but i'm well preserved)

By R.C. on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 12:43 am:

    Sarah -- maybe you're tired becuz 6 hrs. of sleep really *isn't* enuf for you. Hormonal changes can contribute a lot to feeling tired. And if yr body fat is that low/yr hormonal levels have also dropped. Try getting the doctor-recommended 8 hrs. per nite for 3 or 4 days/& see how you feel.

    It's sad that Sleep is such an under-rated pleasure. People think you're a sloth when you like to sleep. Everyone brags abt how little sleep they can get by on. I remember Donald Trump bragging abt how he only gets 4 hrs. of sleep a nite -- & then his real estate empire took a serious kick in the ass. (But of course/the banks hadda bail him out.) But I adore sleeping. No matter how much I drink/no matter how bad a cold I have or how wicked my cramps are or how shitty I'm feeling/just give me a nice, comfy bed to lie down in & I can sleep off or thru anything. Esp. when it's raining. Give me 7-8 hrs. btwn 3:30am & 10am or so & I feel like a million bucks.

    And my work schedule changes to 11:30am - 8pm starting next wk./which makes me hap-py hap-py!

By R.C. on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 12:48 am:

    Add Sem -- don't go gettin' all buff on us, now. If you have the hotties running behind you all summer/I'll be heart-broken!

    (When do we get to see the Before & After pix?)

    It's sad/but true. Watch how much play you start to get once you get a hardbody. Girls who looked right past you 3 mos. ago will be draping themselves all over yr muscle-shirt clad bod.

    Then again/you're kinda overdue for some major Action. ;)

By sarah on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 04:44 am:

    breakfast: two cups coffee with splash of whole milk, 1/2 cup cottage cheese, 1 plum, some turkey breast.

    lunch: 1 cup coffee; marinated steak; salad with lettuce, cuc, tomato, sprouts, carrots, cheese, walnuts, ceasar vinegar dressing

    snack: 1/4 box of tic tacs.

    pre-paddling fuel: curried cabbage, tofu, broccoli

    pre-aerobics fuel: tofu, long eggplant stir fry.

    post-aerobics needless eating before bed: a bite of cottage cheese, the remaining bit of long eggplant, a teaspoon of peanut butter (couldn't help it), and 3 cups fresh ginger tea.

    6 liters of water.

    yesterday i hit 105; 145 on the scale exactly... and dropping.

    cyst. happy birthday girl. be bad. eat like a horse. it's fun.

By cyst on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 09:45 am:

    I'm going to a "southern bistro" (so many restaurants in portland are called that now). I'll start with a margarita, have some hush puppies, then I'll eat a big piece of meat smothered in some fatty sauce and maybe a twice-baked potato or something. wash that down with a couple glasses of overpriced cabernet. and I'll be sure to save room for pecan pie.

    I'm not sure what I'll do on friday day if it rains, which it is supposed to. I took the day off because I thought my friend would arrive early, but he can't.

By cyst on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 09:50 am:

    105 is a lot to lose.

    a few weeks ago I got too stoned and went and sat in a movie theater, where I did not watch "the ninth gate," which was playing in front of me, and I started freaking out about things that are going on and not going on, but the one thought that was always really comforting was -- christ, I am in great fucking shape and I feel really good in my body and I never ever want to go back.

By semillama on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 10:33 am:

    "After" pictures - ya'll gotta wait a couple months. If Margret would settle on a date for her wedding, I could tell you when you'll get to see me.

    Went to the gym at 6:40 this morning, but all the treadmills were in use, so I tried out on those ellipitical machines for the first time. Thsoe things are decpetive - they look pretty easy on you, but damn if it didn't kick my ass at the end! I had to sit on the bench in the locker room feeling slightly ill for 5 minutes before I could hit the showers. I probably got a good 600 calorie loss out of it (including the period after you're done when you're still burning K like crazy). Got to work, ate half a Myoplex Deluxe bar (peanut butter) and scarfed some water, then headed out for an hour to my site to clear more brush. I'm getting ready to eat my normal breakfast which is 2 cups of h20, a cuppa yogurt and 2 morningstar farms veggie sausage patties ( i love their products because they are so high in protein and low in fat). Lunch will be s turkey sandwich and a handful of red grapes, then a midafternoon meal of the other half of the myoplex bar. Then dinner will be a chicken breast, sweet potato, and some mixed veggies. Last meal at about 9pm will be a myoplex shake with some Betagen mixed in (HMB and creatine).

    pretty easy.
    I only spend about 3, 3 1/2 hours a week working out too. I don't think i could do more aerobics than the 20 minute deal, 3 times a week without gining up (i hate them so much).

    maybe Sarah and I could have a posedown for the rest of y'all! Just kidding.

By mistaswine on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 11:39 am:

    what's a "posedown"?

    what does "gining up" mean?

    aerobic exercise truly sucks, but those elliptical machines beat the hell out of stair steppers. stair steppers kick my ass into all sorts of ill conditions. last time i attempted 45 minutes on one of those contraptions i came close to blacking out and damn near fell on top of some frail little ally mcbeal look-alike. with giuliani in gracie, i woulda been looking at 5 to 10 in the big house for sure.

    thank god for my cat-like reflexes.


    i'm blowing off the aerobic torture for a while and sticking to pushing weight.

    anyway, i guess it doesn't really matter. i don't work out to lose/gain body mass. i do it for stress management. otherwise i'd be walking around growling at strangers and beating everything within punching distance.

By J on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 11:58 am:

    Hammering nails in wood and throwing glass objects ,smashing them in the garbage can,help me relieve stress.I buy used cups and dishes at yard sales and keep them in my garage.I,ve been under alot of stress lately,crying,it doesn,t help anything really,but at least you let something out so your heart doesn,t break.

By Margret on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 12:26 pm:

    I think we're actually beginning to settle on the weekend before Hallowe'en. The forests are too dry here because of a very mild winter.

By semillama on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 12:33 pm:

    That'd work for me.

    I meant "giving up" - typo.

    posedown - when a musclebuond person flexes in different poses to show off their development.

By patrick on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 12:57 pm:

    "posedown"- that must be wrasslin lingo

By agatha on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 02:44 pm:

    breakfast: coffee.

    I think I really am going to start yoga next week. I mean it.

By sarah on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 04:53 pm:

    the elliptical trainers are for pussies. right now i can burn that thing at 180-190 reps per minute for 40 minutes and barely get my heart rate up... though i do sweat a lot. i only use that thing when i'm forcing myself to "crosstrain".

    of course, no offense semi. my quads, hamstrings, and glutes are made of steel at this point. and i've been training hard for nearly two years.

    i love aerobic exercise. i love the adrenaline of the workout and the endorphine buzz afterward, and how my body feels all wobbly and floaty and relaxed, almost like after an orgasm.

    no paddling on tues and thurs. tonight is advanced step, 90 minutes. 60 aerobics, 30 of sculpt and abs. i use a step and two sets of risers. then i sprint a mile on the treadmill. then i lift. then i go home and write a little bit and collapse.

    get up. repeat.

    except this morning i got a bug up my ass and i got up before dawn to surf since a) i haven't surfed much since taking up paddling and i miss it and b) i got a new (used) surfboard, which an easy sweet spot. i was trying to recapture the feeling of catching my first big long wave which happened years ago. i can't remember actually catching it, just riding it and laughing my head off. and wanting to do it over and over again, just to see what the rest of the world does while i'm on the wave. when you're surfing you have no idea what was going on around you. time stops and the water is so clear and sparkly. you can see the rocks and the fish darting between them. then the ride was over and there's Diamond Head crater and the water around was all foamy and the sailboats looked so romantic against the sunrise sky and i was so happy that i brought myself to hawaii so many years ago.

    i thought about the small gift someone sent me from the mainland (does it get a capital "M"?) and wondered why, after all these years, i feel drawn back there again, and how truly scary that is. but maybe it will pass. then i remembered i had to go to work in a bit, but decided to push it a little try for one last long ride in.

    then I thought about an ex and tried to discern if i missed the sex or the friendship or being a girlfriend or a bit of it all.

    so all these thoughts running through my head and feeling that good things were going to happen today, maybe tomorrow too. then the set comes in. catch the wave, ride, and everything else is lost in sea spray.

    whoooboy. i'm hungry. almost time for lunch.

By Nate on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 07:11 pm:

    i'm going to break 200 before long.

    damn girlfriend damn moves in damn always stocks chocolate damn stoner damn always unstocks chocolate.


By Daniel ssss. on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 09:31 pm:

    Interesting line of talk, folks. No one has suggested eliminating the coffee, the booze, the valium and the like...which may assist in boosting one's feeling of health. Or in fact may boost health. We live in a toxic environment; we eat toxic foods; we do toxic exercises - feel toxic feelings - think toxic thoughts. Write vitriolic verse. Alienate friends. Lash out at lovers. Rage at people we don't even know. Yeah.

    RC, you are one balanced, articulate, assured voice.

    Yeah, getting on a plane to Seattle. Yeah. I know that one.

By agatha on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 09:39 pm:

    Sarah doesn't booze it up or drink too much coffee, as far as I know. This is why I haven't mentioned those things. Speaking for myself, that is. Coffee is bad. I think I will make some.

By droopy on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 10:00 pm:

    give us this day our daily toxins.


By sarah on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 10:01 pm:

    i do yoga nearly every day and eat mostly organic produce and buy organic milk. the protein i eat is mostly not organic and i don't like to think about that too much.

    5 mg of valium helps me sleep at night. not every night, not even once a week. but otherwise i don't sleep, i'm not a sleeper, even when i'm exhausted. you would say "take valarian" but that's ridiculous. you're not supporting a more viable, eco-friendly, or righteous market by buying into all that ginko crap. not all drugs are bad for you. they simply extract the most powerful part of the plant. you have to take less to get a better effect.

    sometimes i drink too much coffee, but generally i don't. besides that, for most people, caffiene is not toxic to your body, despite the rumors. do some research on it... no scientific studies have resolved conclusive evidence. in fact, caffeine is good for your metabolism, increases alertness and improves mental functioning. the only bad thing about caffeine is that it's addictive.

    but then again, so is water. and tic tacs :)

    in a perfect world we'd all hunt for our own meat and grow our own produce without pesticides or chemicals and we'd meditate ourselves to sleep and participate in drum circles to take out aggression and create bonding in communities.

    unfortunately, that's not the world i live in. maybe it would be if i moved to kauai or to a remote island in the fijian archipelago. but i gotta find me a boyfriend before i do something like that.

    i think i'm going to eat chocolate ice cream tonight. just for the fuck of it.

By sarah on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 10:08 pm:

    scratch that.

    actually, in a perfect world we'd all eat chocolate ice cream for breakfast and margaritas for lunch and filet mignon for supper and fuck each other silly without fear of disease and die in our sleep at age 40.

By Jina on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 10:58 pm:

    My birthday is on Thursday.

By Me on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 12:37 am:

    Birthy Hapday Jina! The full moon tonight is setting the mood indigo. Enjoy your self. The planets are lining up for your event. When trying to ignore a birthday for me, have found that you can't. When the day hits you can't help feeling specially mystical.
    Happiest of birthdays to you and on Friday, Cyst and NZA so far!
    mardy hardy. party hardy.

By Gee on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 01:11 am:

    happy birthday, girls. Eat lots of cake! I love birthday cake. You're allowed to eat junk on your birthday and not gain anything.

    sleep is good. I love sleep. Lying in bed half asleep is one of my favorite things to do, and I don't care how lazy that sounds. it gives me a chance to let my mind wander peacefully.

By R.C. on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 01:33 am:

    I'm thinking of switching to organic meats.

    There's a new joint called the Roadkill Cafe opening up near my house. Daily all-you-can-eat specials. For just $5.95!

    Seriously tho/I've been eating a lot of shellfish lately. Mostly shrimp. Which I love. Which is prolly farm-grown. Does that make it organic? I mean/crustaceans don't need fertilizer, right? I don't know anyone who can afford organically-raised meats. And even if I cd/I ain't paying $6.00 a lb. for free-range chicken/no matter how pure & natural it may be!

    Altho' I'm very particular abt my coffee -- strictly organic. And my tequila. Only the additive-free, 100%-de-agave-labeled stuff. That Sauza Reposada Nate turned me onto is like magic. A whole pitcher of Ritas & no hangover the next day! (But I think the real trick is using Nutrasweet in 'em instead of sugar.)

    I owe ya one, Natorious.

    So Sarah/you're the perfect person to ask abt this: I've decided to buy a piece of excercise equipment. Just one. But I can't choose btwn a Pilates Performer or a used treadmill. I found a good treadmill at this used sporting goods shop for $600 -- a model that sells for $1500 new. But its' fucking huge! Even if I put it here in my computer room/it will occupy most ofthe floor space & I'll be climbing over it to get to my hutch. Which I can live with/I guess. (It looked to big to be one of those fold-up models.) The Pilates Machine will run me about $450 inc. the additional equipment. (They have them at iqvc.com if anyone wants to have a look at one.) It's considerably smaller & less bulky. So it's cheaper than the treadmill. I enjoy doing yoga & Pilates is very similar to yoga. It's supposed to give you that long, lean, dancer-like look. I really like walking too -- it's just that it's too unbearably hot & steamy here from June-Oct. to walk comfortably outside/even late at nite. (The skeeters down here are insanely hostile! Not to mention wondering if carrying pepper spray is really useful in the event that some deranged SOB happens to cross my path during my midnite stroll...)

    I'm leaning towards the Pilates machine/but am still undecided. You've prolly worked out on every machine except the space shuttle. Got any recommendations?

    The only other piece of equipment that interests me is one of those huge gyro thingees that you can spin around on 360 degrees in all directions by shifting yr body weight. I hear they're a great workout. But they cost practically as much as a car/& I cd never fit one in my house.

    And a general but heartfelt Happy Birthday to all you April Sorabjians! (And to Cleo/belatedly.)


    I have this deep yearing to hear some Steely Dan right now. Anything atall from Aja. Or Gaucho. Or The Royal Scam.

    Where the hell are my SD CDs anyway? I haven't seen them since I moved into this place...

By cyst on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 02:21 am:

    they had a lawyer come in and talk to the managers about sexual harassment at work today. they're going to pass the information on to the lower-downs.

    I wonder what they're going to say. I hope I can still go out with the cute guy from work. I hope that the blond guy can still tell me he can see my underwear and whisper into my hair. I hope that that married manager in engineering still flirts with me and lets me work on projects I'm not really qualified for.

    on my birthday I'm taking the say off and I'm going to drive to an old farmworkers town 30 miles south of here. it's now half russian and half latino. I'm going to take pictures of people and not ask their permission in english, russian or spanish. I am going to eat pilmeny. I am going to pretend I am turning 15 instead of 29 and visit the quinceanero shop and look at frilly dresses. I am going to eavesdrop.

    I am also going to go to the nearby outlet mall and see what I can find at the banana republic hand-me-down shop. then I will go to the tulip fields and buy enough cut flowers to fill my apartment with red. for my birthday night. for my first houseguest.

By semillama on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 08:52 am:

    Here's one thing I really liked about the elliptical machine: No shin splints after wards, which I get on the treadmill big time. Plus, with the variable resistance, instead of variable speeds, it seems to make me push myself harder than the treadmill does. I think I'll try it again tomorrow morning.

By Daniel ssss on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 09:01 am:

    valerian has nothing to do with valium. The latter does not come from the valerian plant.

    Chocolate is nice, releases endorphins, and is a combination of sugar (toxic) caffiene (not as much as in a cup of decaf coffee) and cocoa (not at all related to cocaine, and processed with alkalye to make it palatable and this results in a chemical called theobromide which, when it hits the brain, releases an adrenyl-like enzyme from the pituitary gland called prostaglandin...a super stimulant). The brain doesn't know the difference - when it comes to prostaglanding at least) between a hot fudge sundae and a maragarita.

    I wouldn't wanna die when I'm forty as I'd be dead nine years...but everything else you suggest would make for health. And sometimes death is the next step in the healing process, yes?

    Happy nonbirthday health this glorious breathing day to all you road kill fans. In a perfect world we wouldn't even need drums...hey, look, it's a perfect world. Surf's up on the Mississippi! Pass the peanut butter and chocolate please.

By Margret on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 09:38 am:

    It is my sincere desire to be shot the second I have to take my aggressions out in a drumming circle in lieu of the current method (psychologically torturing cats). Swine, you've got my back on this, right? You'll find me and put me down when they drag me from my house and hand me a tambour, right?

By J on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 10:24 am:

    I get most my calcium from my antacid tablets.

By marquis de swine on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 11:56 am:

    take out your aggressions by beating drums with a bunch of hippies?


    yeah, put me in that circle.

    you'd have a blood bath on your hands before anyone could mumble "aiko aiko".

    so yeah, margret.

    i got your back one hundred percent.

By sarah on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 02:50 pm:

    semi: for shin warm-ups try standing up with your knees slightly bent and tap your toes, bringing your toes up really high, for 2 minutes without stopping before running. end of shin splints, guaranteed.

    let me know when you get up to level 9 resistance on the elliptical trainer and then we'll have a posedown. or whatever you call it. :)

By sarah on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 02:53 pm:

    RC: i have no idea what a Pilates machine is. sorry.

    if you think you'll *really* use it, get the treadmill. walking and running are really the best cardio activities you can do. also, you can always sell the thing if you find that it takes up too much room and you don't use it. just pass it on to the next person.

    have you ever bought in-house fitness equipment before? i have not. i only have some free weights.

By sarah on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 02:55 pm:

    oh yeah. kickboxing is the #1 best way to release aggression. beating the living crap out of people who are bigger than you is so satisfying.

By Daniel ssss. on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 03:50 pm:

    Just for one MUCKING moment, I'd like to see one gaddam shred of mucking ASSHOLE rat-induced laboratory SCIENTIFUCK report to substantiate that a MAD HATTED gaddam VEGAN CAJAN burned out HIPPIE (who is pleasantly drumming ON THE LEFTOVER stretched over the skull edge of BRAIN OF A GODDAM philatilist) takes out any mucking aggression at all, gaddam it.

    Then again, I don't read widely. Me, I use the drum to change my brain waves. To work out aggression, the internet and or email seem the place to be.

    My second choice, would be, hmmmm, running barefoot with Auggie's buffalo across the street. But my simple appearance in their pen appears to startle the gentle beasts. Love and mutual respect to all, (I'm just being playful...)

By Jina on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 04:18 pm:

    Geez. I'm embaressed. Mine's Friday too. I just thought yesterday was Monday the 18th. Cheers to the rest of you birthday people. I'm having the family come over for a nice dinner and then a friend is going to stop by and we'll figure something out to do from there. I don't really want to do anything conventional either. I had a great time with her once. We were just driving around in Olympia trying to figure out something to do. So I drove really fast down the neighborhood streets, met this guy downtown who was with this other stranger wanting so badly to smoke him out, and got him to buy us a jug of wine at Ralph's on top of the hill.

    I want to do something for 4/20. I had a dream that I smoked a big fatty last night.

By mistaswine on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 05:26 pm:

By patrick on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 06:19 pm:

    holy shit thats the best!!!!!!

By semillama on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 08:58 pm:

    Sarah, this is what I did on the Elliptical:
    on a 2% grade:
    2 mins at level 4 (warm up)
    1 min at 5
    1 min at 6
    1 min at 7
    1 min at 8
    1 min at 5
    1 min at 6
    1 min at 7
    1 min at 8
    1 min at 5
    1 min at 6
    1 min at 7
    1 min at 8
    1 min at 9
    1 min at 2, 0% grade (cooldown)

    It's all about pushing up to that last minute, where you try to do your all out effort (meaning you couldn't keep up the pace a second past a minute). Efficient. Thanks for the advice on the shin splint cure.

By Enter_the_Sandle on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 09:05 pm:

    Is it Jina, or Jyna', Clymadis, or Krokus. Cuz when big fatty talks, everybody listens. Curly girl waves of wax dripped denim. You ever have dark roots, you know....the 80's thang. But you
    ain't no Madonna-wanna-be. You're the smiling
    creature....the one where you meet someone, when he laughs, and you can see the little piece of his heart that makes you lose your breath for just a nano-second, and you can see he's clumsily trying to hide it. The more he tries, the more he gives himself away. When your eyes meet, he farts really loud while grabbing your tit, and you just know you're right for each other....

By J on Thursday, April 20, 2000 - 06:03 am:

    This guy is trying to tell us something...I just don,t know what.But he sounds real romantic.

By Jina on Thursday, April 20, 2000 - 08:59 pm:

    It's Jina. Jinafishes. Jina ghotis. Like Jeena, not Jyna, you bad boy. (I think he's more like a distortioned philosopher.) But that first part, When big fatty talks everybody listens, oh god, you sound like Fiona Apple. I cringe. I prickle. I read an article on her quite a while ago on her latest cd and I hate her more than ever. Not hate really, but uhm, a sort of hard feeling of sympathy. I think she purposely says fuck too much. And the part where she doesn't drive, dude, that's already been done. Thom Yorke of Radiohead. Not only does he not drive, but he's deathly afraid of the things. That's kind of cute in a way, but he's ugly as sin. Cute in the same way that color copiers refuse to xerox money.

By heather on Thursday, April 20, 2000 - 10:13 pm:

    my friends that refuse to drive are a pain in the ass. especially on the few and far between road trips.

    they make you drive them everywhere (well, he did, i don't have a car now and haven't for a few years).

    so now i guess i'm the pain in the ass.

By patrick on Friday, April 21, 2000 - 11:38 am:

    i don't understand not wanting to drive or being afraid to drive. But then again, I ALWAYS drive. I am pretty good at it.

By Daniel ssss on Friday, April 21, 2000 - 01:59 pm:

    Jina: was the big day Thursday or Friday? Anyway, hope it was swell. It's still a perfect world here.

By J on Friday, April 21, 2000 - 03:59 pm:

    Happy B-day to Cyst,Jina,and NZA,have fun,be happy!!!

By cyst on Friday, April 21, 2000 - 05:58 pm:

    I ate baba ganoush and bought 30 tulips today.

    now I'm going to take a nap.

    later I am going to dress up and drink wine and see friends and eat dinner and listen to music and make out.

    my apartment is clean and I have three dates this weekend.

    thanks for the happy birthday wishes. I'll do my best.

By Nb on Saturday, April 22, 2000 - 12:29 am:

    it's men that always have to be the driver, that can't stand to be passengers, that I don't understand. when i go to dinner with my sister and her so, he always asks to drive even if we take my car. i can understand when its her car. her driving scares me too. but i'm not that bad.

By Enter_the_Sandle on Saturday, April 22, 2000 - 11:02 pm:

    I like it when clown dwarfs drive, a big strong dwarf with a pudgy bulldog face, that runs after you in the house with a big spanking paddle...yelling at the top of his lungs "Daddy wants Mommy to drive....I'll show you what daddy drives, c'mere you naughty little girl"

By patrick on Monday, April 24, 2000 - 12:50 pm:

    i have control issues.

By semillama on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 09:19 am:

    What, like do you miss the toilet half the time?

By patrick on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 12:03 pm:


    i married man. thats not an issue anymore.

    (marriage humor #429, take note marg)

By mistaswine on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 12:07 pm:

By agatha on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 01:22 pm:


    that is truly hilarious. look at their big heads!

By patrick on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 01:31 pm:

    yeah thanks man....great mundane office pleaser. I am still reeling from whiptheworker..

By mistaswine on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 03:07 pm:

    whiptheworker is a classic.

    but i'm kinda liking pico goes to school, too.

    newgrounds is the shit.

By patrick on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 03:26 pm:

    have you played that 3d pool on the shockwave link you posted? diggin that. yeah Pico is fun, i can't seeem to win the Bear game though. I beat him on the porch but when i go inside...i get reamed very quickly. have you found the joint in the locker on Pico/School?

By patrick on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 03:27 pm:

    america's work ethic is slowly deteriorating

By mistaswine on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 03:41 pm:

    did i find the joint?

    man, i *always* find the joint.

    which may be why i can't seem to recall ever posting a link to some shockwave site...

    but by all means, hook me up with the 3D pool thing.

    i'm all about distractions.

By patrick on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 03:49 pm:

    all you had to do was

    look up

    on this very thread

By patrick on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 03:49 pm:

    click on the "games"

By Tangra on Friday, July 1, 2005 - 04:23 am:

    i want to get some money every month ......i think i will get it////

By Sam on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 02:51 pm:

    hi h r u hope will be happy so i just want to know this that how could i make my dick fat and big just tellme this ok i realy need this ok waiting for your mail

By jack on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 06:43 pm:

    rub it.

By V on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 07:05 pm:

    jack,ignore the last posting from "sam",its a 13 year old troll.,the thing has a new name most nights.

By Lol on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 08:29 pm:

    Oh yes, please do tell us all about the trolls, v.
    You would know.

By V on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 08:36 pm:

    Lol,as Boss troll,I dont miss much.

By V on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 08:41 pm:

    Sam/raju,if I send you an e-mail it will be a virus.


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