No. I hate you. Do you love me?: No. I hate you.

By bell_jar on Sunday, August 12, 2001 - 05:00 pm:

    I used to pride myself in not hating anyone, but now I realize I just didn't want to hate anyone.

    My list of people I hate, in no particular order:

    Stepfather #1
    Stepfather #2
    The boy I fucked in January.

    There are probably more, but I can't think of them. I don't feel like such a good person now, but it feels kind of nice to say it out loud.


By Pug on Sunday, August 12, 2001 - 06:51 pm:

    Hate....sometimes it's all we have left.

By semillama on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 08:48 am:

    Nothing like a dose of Righteous HATE to get the blood flowing in the morning. Yessir, HATE and a cup of coffee, I'm ready to go.
    I get my HATE from the Today Show. I watch it before I go to work on purpose to get that hate injection from Willard Scott and Al Roker, plus all those insipid weddding features and the herd of mrons screaming outside. That's some Grade-A HATE for you right there.

By Hal on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 10:20 am:

    I can honestly say there is only one person in this world I HATE, someone who if given the chance I as a non-violent person would cause certain violence to without a second though. Shit it would be meticulus.

    Ex-girlfriends, ex-boyfriend. When her and I were dating that stupid fuck never got the hint and left till the day when he pushed her, I came out, he told me he was going to kick my ass and me and my baseball bat had to tell him to leave. That day I told him if I ever saw him again there would be bloodshed and I meant it, still do. I'm thinking that unless somethign drastic happens between now and the year 2010, he shows up for the reunion and I'm going to beat the fuck out of him.

    God I hate violence.

By Platypus on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 11:05 am:

    See, there are lots of people I used to think I hated, but then I thought about it. I don't really hate them, I just want them to never appear anywhere near me again. I think that's different from hate. I mean, if I never see them, I don't hate them. It's not like I sit around all day thinking about how much I hate them--it's when I run into them at the movie theatre or something that it suddenly occurs to me. "Oh yeah, I hate this person."

    That didn't make any sense. Maybe I should just love everyone instead.

    Ugh. Nevermind.

By Hal on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 11:13 am:

    I tried to think that once about this kid.

    But no, fuck it I hate the sonofabitch, he deserves bad things. I'm hoping one day that Karma just up and boots him in the fucking nuts, but somehow Karma isn't that malicious.

By bell_jar on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 11:19 am:

    i don't think about them all of the time, and i certainly don't wish anything bad upon any of them.

    it's just when i think of them... well... i get angry and want to scream. is that hate?

    actually with my father and stepfather #1, i don't want to scream. i just get really sad and wonder why. maybe i don't hate them.

    what is hate?

By Nate on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 11:48 am:

    that's not hate.

    hate is self destructive. it is you allowing a person to reduce your life.

    hate is pointless.

By patrick on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 01:08 pm:


By Nate on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 01:46 pm:


By patrick on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 01:48 pm:

    pointless nate pointless

By Nate on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 02:29 pm:

    that wasn't hateful.


By pez on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 02:36 pm:

    i used to use the word hate all the time.

    but what is hate?

    i know fear and pity and sadness.....

    but i can't really claim to hate anything.

By bell_jar on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 02:40 pm:


    To feel hostility or animosity toward.
    To detest.
    To feel dislike or distaste for: hates washing dishes

By patrick on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 03:17 pm:

    no nate, but the words "pointless" surrounding your name, made me think of your name between two breasts. the t and l being nipples.

    it was a counter offensive to your hate.


By Nate on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 03:42 pm:

    oh, sorry.

    thanks for the breasts.

By Hal on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 03:46 pm:

    <This was written by my ex, Marcy for her College english class, it was probably one of the best explinations of hate I ever read. Not very fun reading it and thinking of her, but I figured you all would enjoy it.>

    If we miraculously became the people we hate, how lovable we would find ourselves.
    -George Bernard Shaw
    I feel I am a fairly open-minded, freethinking individual. I am able to listen to people voice their opinions-regardless of how short-sighted or unfounded they are- and stomach almost anything they have to say with at least an ounce of understanding and compassion. Also, I am of a certain rearing that renders me able to hear a wide range of profanities and vulgar expressions spoken without so much as batting an eye. In short, I am able to tolerate a great variety of verbal peccadilloes and misguided thoughts with a certain amount of grace. There exists, however, one single and unassuming word that tends to get a rise out of my fairly pacifistic self. I absolutely hate the word hate.
    It never really occurred to me how much it has become part of our daily verbal exchanges either until I started to contemplate what exactly hating something means to me. Just walking around campus, one is bound to hear the word peek its ugly head from amongst the midst of an otherwise peaceful conversation. While standing in line to get coffee the other day, I found myself eavesdropping on a seemingly normal, vapid, and "like totally!" conversation amongst a group of giggly girls. Disinterested to the point of slipping into a coma-like state, I was struck by a few utterly random and emotionless sentences. About a professor two of the girls had, "Ödon't you just hate him!" Also, concerning a phone call one had received the night before, "Can you believe he called me? Doesn't he know how much I hate him?" I must first distinguish the difference I see between saying that one hates an object or thought and expressing that same hate toward an actual human being. Granted I am not too terribly found of the word in any situation, but I find myself especially disturbed when someone talks about hating another person.
    Now I am not naÔve enough to believe that this emotion does not exist between people in the world. There are undoubtedly those that do in fact feel a pure and unadulterated sense of hatred towards an enemy. I am, however, firmly convinced that for the most part, the declaration has become a wasted feeling. The word hate has become trite and lost the true emotion that use to lie behind it. I feel this is due in part to society's tendency to take everything they are feeling to the superlative: we're never tired; we're exhausted: we're never hungry; we're starving.
    There are those that can honestly say that they have had something so drastic happen in their lives that would cause a feeling as strong as hate towards another person. I, on the other hand, have never succumbed to this feeling. Whether this is out of sheer luck or not, I can honestly say that while not too terribly fond of some people I have met throughout the course of my nineteen years on this earth, I hate no one. To arrive at this conclusion though, I will have to admit there were some pretty close calls that I have experienced that have enabled me to reflect upon how I view the word hate.
    I met Heidi my sophomore year of high school while on swim team. The two of us hit-it-off fairly well from the beginning if for no other reason than our similar skill level on the team-we were both pretty rotten. Also, and perhaps incidentally, we shared the same unique sense of humor, which provided us with solace and created a unique bond between us. Not only were the two of us on swim team together, we also shared quite a few of the same classes in school and even life guarded at the same pool during the school year. As a result, Heidi and I spent nearly ever minute together for a quite a few months out of the year. To say the least, we became very close. I loved everything about Heidi and even thought her to be a sort of kindred spirit, the likes of which I had never seen before. I t was refreshing to have someone in my life I not only enjoyed spending time with but also felt as though I could talk to about anything. Both of us had come from less than ideal family situations and having had self-esteem issues in the past, we both relied on each other for quite a bit of emotional support. Over the course of our three years of knowing one another, I felt as though I could tell her anything and she would always be there to lend a non-judgmental ear and allow me to vent. I told Heidi a lot of personal things about myself because I trusted her impeccably-or at least I thought I could.
    Despite all the positive aspects that existed in our relationship, there came to be a major bone of contention between us that would eat away at the very core of our friendship-quite simply, Heidi had a big mouth. I guess I always realized this fact but chose to ignore it because I thought that there was something sacred in the nature of our relationship. It came to my attention about halfway through our senior year, however, that nearly every private detail about myself that I had been entrusting in Heidi was becoming public knowledge. To say the absolute least, I was crushed by this realization and felt like I now had nowhere to turn and no one to talk to. My world was shaken; my best friend had betrayed me.
    After quite a bit of feuding and one final confrontation that ultimately ended an up-until-then decent relationship, I vowed never to talk to Heidi again. She had deceived me, used me, and even lied to me about it. Our intimacy with one another had always been based on trust, and now I could no longer freely confide in her ever again.
    My first instinct after all was said and put out in the open was to pass of the anger and frustration I felt toward Heidi as hate. It would have been a lot easier to disregard all of her positive traits and curse her to everyone I knew as being the most despicable person in the world. However, whenever I think of all the horrid things she did to me, I cannot help but find myself conversely thinking of the good times the two of us shared. It occurred to me then that hate has the ability to blind a person to both reason and compassion. Hate renders one unable to see anything redeeming in an enemy and more than eager to discredit every good thing a person has ever done. It was through this experience that I finally realized that while I could hate a person's actions passionately, I would never say that I truly hated someone in my life. With Heidi, the depth of my hatred was always mirrored by once strong degree of my love.
    Along with this, I also realized during this time how futile hatred of someone is in most cases. I feel when we hate our enemies, we are giving them power over us. It is only when we feel this strongly towards another that they gain control over every aspect of our lives: over our sleep, our health, and our happiness. For myself, hate is a waste of time and energy. This is why even though people like Heidi may pass through my life, leaving a wake of utter disillusionment and paranoia in their paths, I am able to move on with my life and not allow them to make me feel anything but love toward my fellow man.

By patrick on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 03:49 pm:

    i SOO skipped through that

By Nate on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 04:26 pm:

    that's a college english paper.


By Hal on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 05:06 pm:

    Yeah I know, I didn't say it was perfect. And Patrick I don't blame you for skipping over it, I didn't realize how long it was till I posted it. Sorry.

By pez on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 06:07 pm:

    it happens.

    i've been hated for long long posts on boards

    amoung other things.

By Czarina on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 01:55 am:

    Hate is right up there with jealousy.Two emotions I have no use for.Both are extremely destructive.

    If someone fucks me over,I don't waste my time or energy hating them,or,for that matter,wasting any emotion on them.

    I simply write them off as a non-person.

    I never forget,and I seldom forgive.I am simply done with them.I won't waste my time seeking revenge.

    On the other hand,should an opportunity ever present itself,to pay them back,[and this could be 10 years down the road],I won't hesitate to utelize this.It doesn't matter if they ever realize it was me,that caused their misfortune,I am content with just having this knowledge myself.I wear a wry smirk.

By crimson on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 03:07 am:

    forgiveness isn't my forte, either. i was recently told by someone that i'd never evolve spiritually until i could forgive everyone who'd ever wronged me. i find that hard to deal with. if i forgive these people, then it condones their actions. it becomes perfectly OK that they treated me like shit, that they abused or fucked me over, because the burden is suddenly on ME to forgive them for their inexcusable actions. still, it's hard to carry around a grudge sometimes. forgiveness just doesn't strike me as the answer. i mean, there are VERY few people i wouldn't forgive. when it gets to that point, it means that they have mortally fucked w/ me. so forgiving them seems...well, a trifle difficult. like it ain't gonna happen. still, maybe that's a great moment in spirituality...the act of forgiveness. letting that burden roll away. or maybe forgiveness just makes you a giant cosmic patsy.

By patrick on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 11:20 am:

    i dont think forgiveness condones anything other than the simple fact that you arent going to waste anymore of your energy being angry, bitter or hateful to said person. Forgiveness doesnt address the issue that pissed you off, it just addresses everything since. In fact to me, its just the opposite.

By crimson on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 11:49 am:

    it just seems to me that forgiveness is really like opening up the floodgates. you might as well announce to the world that it's perfectly fine for people to run roughshod over you. and if it's OK for one person, why not everyone? hey, forgive n' forget! come one, come all! i'm not a masochist enough for that game. it DOES seem to condone their brutal actions, at least the way i see it. if you can forgive, then you obviously don't give a crap about what happened to you. how could you, if you're so hot to forgive every little thing? there are great christian profundities about the forgiveness of christ. how the hell did he manage it? and WHY? christians are supposed to forgive as christ forgave. i don't understand how or why they would (or possibly could)...but it seems to be important & it's something that i'm increasingly wishing i could do. one of the people i can't bring myself to forgive is now a senior citizen & i'd like to be able to forgive them before they die but i find it all but impossible to do.

By J on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 11:57 am:

    I've always been a grudge holder,I can't help it,I remember when somebody fucks with me and it makes me feel better if I can fuck with them.But that's just me.

By Czarina on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 12:00 pm:

    You're the best grudge holder I've ever known :)

By patrick on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 12:01 pm:

    forgiveness deals with resentment. resentment stems from what they did. forgiveness doesnt address what they did, only the resentment that occured because of what they did. this is an extremist view of yours. i mean, view it anyway you like, but i think my way is better for your soul and health. it is possible to convey to someone you do not approve of what they did to you, but you arent going to let it eat you up anymore. There is a way to articulate that. IF people are continuing to run you over, then well, thats seems another problem.

By Hal on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 12:03 pm:

    Fuck forgiving, if someone does something horrible to you why should you be expected to bite the bullet, take it up the ass and be a nice person. No Fuck that, some one is an asshole to you should by all means have to deal with you as an asshole.

    I mean give a person a chance, don't just write everyone off as an asshole and tell them to "go fuck themselfs" no give them a chance, and then tell them.

By patrick on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 12:11 pm:

    because it can be about maturity hal. resentment is up there with jealousy. Its one thing to not associate with someone because of something they did. its another to let resentment, hate and anger eat at you.

    its baggage, dead weight.

    bunch of vindictive fucks.

    really evauluate whats important.

    you only have so much room in this trunk, what are you going to fill it with?

By crimson on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 12:24 pm:

    i'm not a vindictive person. i can think of very, very few instances where i ever "got back" at someone. i'm not carrying around that particular type of anger. i'm not vengeful & i don't sit around nursing revenge fantasies. it's just that i have a seeming inability to say, "hey, it's ok...let's be pals" after somebody has persistently fucked w/ me. i want them to disappear. i never want to see them again. but half the time, i DO end up seeing their ugly mugs, again & again. i just want them to fucking evaporate.

By patrick on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 12:30 pm:

    i can imagine where you live its hard to not run into the same people.

    i dont think forgiveness has anything to do with being pals. I think it just means you aren't going to resent them for what they did. And if someone is repeatedly dicking you over, im more inclined to ask YOU why you keep giving them a chance to dick you over.

    in big cities or isolated remote areas, its great because you never see the people you dont like.

By Czarina on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 12:33 pm:

    Unless you felt inclined to hunt them down,like the rabid dog they are.

By crimson on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 12:40 pm:

    i'm mostly talking about shit that people did to me when i was a little kid. at that time, i let them do it again & again because i felt i HAD to. there was no other choice (that i could understand at the time). you live in the same house w/ your abusers. you can't possibly escape. i'm mostly talking about people who tortured & raped me when i was a child.

    i'm not holding any kind of grudge against anyone who did anything to me after i hit adulthood. some people have certainly fucked w/ me after i was grown, but i put a stop to it. there are people i dislike, even detest, but i seem to have dealt w/ them effectively & gotten on w/ my life.

    i'm talking instead about the people who'll glad-hand you at family reunions, knowing all the while that when you were in grade school, they fucked you while holding a knife against your throat. shit like that. beating you senseless for no apparent reason. locking you up & literally torturing you. i havn't been able to find it in my heart to forgive them yet. i don't understand why i'm really supposed to, either. but i kinda wish i could, so maybe i could stop seeing those awful images every time i think of them.

By TBone on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 12:46 pm:

    I think it depends on your definition of "forgive". Indeed, there are people who i'd rather not see again due to the way they've treated me. You could say, though, that I forgave them. If I saw them on the street, I'd say hi. I'd be pleasant, but I wouldn't buy them a beer.

    I don't hold hate for these people anymore, I'd just rather not be around them. I don't think people walk all over me because I'm forgiving and don't hold grudges. It's a lot easier this way, actually. Not that holding grudges is wrong, really. I'm sure you're justified.

    If forgiveness means, "let's be pals" then I that's not what I'm doing. I'd have a really hard time being pals with someone who treated me like shit. But that seems normal.

    I can just say "I don't have to care that you fucked me over, because you don't need to be part of my life." Forgiveness for me tends to be a hindsight thing though. If I had to see some fucker daily due to work or school or something, I wouldn't exactly be Ghandi. If they kicked me in the nuts, I wouldn't say, "I forgive you, man" while I'm still on the floor.

    I think people are less likely to intentionally fuck with you if they know they can't get to you.

    I'm rambling. Much of the time, people don't meant to hurt you. In these cases, I think forgiveness is particularly appropriate. If it was intentional, then you've got every reason to leave that person in your past.

By crimson on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 12:53 pm:

    "I don't have to care that you fucked me over, because you don't need to be part of my life."

    actually, that's a really cool way to look at it. unfortunately, some of these people want to continue being part of my life, especially as they grow older. but my capacity for caring is limited. i'm always polite, no mistake about that. i'm very civil & kind to them. but there's tension there, at least on my part. for them, there's no tension. they don't give a shit. it's as if it never happened. they don't talk about it, so it didn't happen.

    i can't seem to shake the memories. but in middle age, i'm getting tired of carrying it around w/ me. to forgive would seem the easiest approach for most people, but for me personally, it's the most difficult thing i can imagine.

By TBone on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 12:53 pm:

    Okay, my post seems shallow now.

    It was supposed to be up there, somewhere higher.

    There are some people who don't deserve forgiveness.

By patrick on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 12:58 pm:

    if it would do you good to confront your abusers by all means. Maybe a good confrontation is what you need. Not forgiveness, but to verbalize exactly what these fucks did to you and discard them from your life.

By crimson on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 01:03 pm:

    no, i liked your post. like i said above, i especially like the part about not having to care that someone fucked you over. that's a cool way of looking at it. i think i'm closer to forgiveness than i ever have been in my life. i wonder if forgiveness would open me up in some sense & make me a better person...or if it would just open me up to becoming a hopeless chump who finds bad treatment acceptable.

    patrick, i just read your post. i don't think i could ever confront these people. i tried once when i was in my 20s. they told me to NEVER speak about such evil again. then they stood there & said stuff like, "it never happened, right? say it! it never happened! you're a lying whore!" it's just impossible. it gives me a sense of dread & terror just thinking about it.

By crimson on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 03:22 pm:

    i always hated that...the way people in my family will stand there saying that things never happened, when you (& they) know damn well that they did. it used to freak me out when i was a kid.

    anyway, i just got some random mailing from a local church (the churches around here are big on that stuff). i usually give the mailings a cursory glance & then deposit them in the circular file. well, this little flyer from the church was about...forgiveness. it was also about "walking in the light", another motif that's been recurring in my life w/ alarming frequency. i keep hearing about walking in the light. for some people, the light is christ. for others, it can mean joining a mystical or fraternal order. maybe it just means playing nice & not harming others.

    i've always considered myself a darkside person. i don't like light. i mean, i don't like physical light. it hurts my eyes terribly. i don't like being out in the daytime. i hate summer because not only is it too damn hot, but it's light outside for so excruciatingly long. i don't like what light stands for figuratively. i've just never seen walking in the light as a pleasant image.

    but everything i'm encountering these days keeps sending a basic message...turn toward the light. i wonder if there's anything to it. i worry that "turning toward the light" could make me lose my creative edge...that i'd become all nice & wholesome & turn into some kind of sappy goody-two-shoes kind of twit. i don't want that to happen, but i want to feel a few burdens roll off my shoulders, too. there must be some middle ground. nobody's composed of all light or all darkness.

    maybe it's time to forget about light & darkness & just take a more subgenius kind of approach.

By Pilate on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 04:52 pm:

    Forgiveness is overrated. I have two people in my life that I find difficult to forgive. One is a guy who screwed me over when I was a teenager and the other is my dear old bitch of a mother. I think that truly forgiving either of them is something that will probably only happen on my deathbed and only if I'm on a hell of a lot of morphine. My former teacher is easier to forgive than my mother. He only raped me. Anyway I've forgiven most of the other people who have treated me badly. I don't know that forgiveness would help. It won't make the emotional scars go away. It can't turn back the clock. It all seems kind of futile. I did eventually forgive my first lover for abandoning me. I wasn't angry about it. I was just kinda bewildered and hurt, not knowing what I'd done wrong.

    And I do, for the record, forgive Oswald for eating the last goddamn Twinkie.

By wisper on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 05:26 pm:

    crimson- i swear, i had the same debate with myself a few years ago. I know just what youíre talking about. The light you speak of isnít becoming a sappy twit, thatís simply called "being a sappy twit". There is nothing for you to fear.
    back to the topic at hand: i have no concept of forgiveness. I donít know if i can explain it.

    When i say i hate someone, it usually means that i find their existence so useless to me and the world as a whole that i canít express how unfortunate it is that they continue to breathe. If someone is cruel or fucks me over, they must have had a thought in their heads in order to pull it off, and i donít hate them. I dislike them intensely, i will avoid them, but not hate. Hate is reserved for the insignificant drunk tarts dancing in the bar.

By Pupchop on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 02:58 am:

    i feel hate as a liberating experience; an event
    as meaningful as any life milestone. You can
    do it for a minute, for a week, for ever and ever
    without cease, and you can stop it any time.
    That is, the focused active intentional aspect
    of hating someone. (Hating things is a waste
    of time. Things are easy to get rid of.) It is
    useless unless the object of your hatred is
    aware of every nuance. Each barely
    perceptible tweak in a different direction of the
    hateful vibes, each blink of the evil eye, should
    cause the
    receiver to shudder. Sooner or later, they will
    ask, "Why do you hate me so?"

    Be prepared for that priceless opportunity;
    hurl yourself into the moment, put it exactly
    where it belongs., as if you are casually
    divesting yourself of some baggage Not
    Wanted on the Voyage.

    You must have a LISTof recipients
    You must a repertoire of VENGEFUL ACTS.
    You must coordinate it, not just pick one from
    Column 1 and One from Column2.

    Keep records but in a safe place. You will
    dine out on these stories for years.. while the
    victims will lose their will to live.

    I dont believe in torching structures, getting
    individuals fired (the gum issue is altogether
    separate. Hatred of gum is in a different
    sphere, where bad things can happen) or
    having the misery go beyond a certain small
    circle, of my choice. You will be amazed at
    how much free time you can make available to
    channel the hate right to where it belongs.
    Remember: they deserve it. Some will swear
    thet don;t care if you hate them. A Big Fat Lie.

    If someone says to you "Oh you must not hate
    anyone", remove that person at once. Don;t try
    to explain.. They don't listen,

    For you own spiritual elevation, instead of
    having a "gratefulness" journal, have a list of
    categories of things which you hate, a roster if
    persons you know who do those things, and a
    catalogue of deliciously wicked life
    threatening pranks. Mix and match.
    I hope this is on the subject. i tend to veer

    Let's make a big giant list. Anything goes.
    Two categories: Hate, and Would Kill

By spunky on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 01:14 pm:

    I will forgive.
    I will not forget.
    And, the only way I will forgive is if you admit you did it and tell me you are sorry, and will never do it again.
    Otherwise, forget it.
    I apply this towards annie and mike.
    I will not forgive unless they admit what they did and appoligize and show that they are taking steps to ensure it never happens again.
    But I will never forget.

    My mom told me if I did not forgive her for choking me to the point of passing out, and spitting in my face and telling me she hated me, i was going to hell.

    She did not say she was sorry. She will never get a chance to do that again, to me or my girls, and I will not forgive. I certainly will not forget.

    Forgiveness is an odd thing. It can be seen as permision for others to do the same, but without it your soul can become consumed with hate and anger.

By pez on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 02:37 pm:

    you should never forgive anyone because they'd tell you that you'd go to hell.

    that's a threat.

    my dad owes me money. he also owes my sister money. she owes me money.

    why am i posting this?

By crimson on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 10:21 am:

    and why am i posting this? like i said above, the forgiveness bit has been chewing at me for quite a while. i keep running into the whole forgiveness thing. it's insane. i pick up a magazine & there's an article on forgiveness. i pick up a book & there's a chapter on forgiveness. i'm involved in a certain organization, which shall remain unnamed (not the bavarian illuminati)...their latest flyer was about freakin' forgiveness. it's like some kind of cosmic assault.

    enough, already. i get the message.

    i think i'm almost ready to forgive my tormentors. like maybe today. just drop the two-ton rock i've been carrying on my back. forgive w/o condoning the actions. i kind of need to get on w/ my life. i've carried around such heavy negative feelings about these people for decades now. i need to move on. i'm not sure if i can make any more spiritual or psychological progress w/o addressing this.

    i'm still spooked about turning into a sweetness n' light patsy, though. i don't want to become a grinning brainless idiot spouting lame, warmed-over mush about "stepping into the light". i'm terrified that all this niceness & happy-think is going to absolutely kill my creative edge.

    otherwise, the forgiveness ritual (yes, i've actually got one here) may help a bit in my quest to get my shit together. hope it helps. it better help. it's going to be one of the hardest things i've ever done.

By Hal on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 12:45 pm:

    God says forgive...

    Yeah right, like he was forgiving shit when he nuked sadam and gramora...

    Fucking religious zealots needing to convert my ass to their fucked up belifes... I'll forgive my foot up their ass.

By crimson on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 01:29 pm:

    see, there's the quandary. we're supposed to forgive others, or god won't forgive us...or at least that's what they hammered down my throat when i was a kid. and even if the old testament god seems unforgiving, there's the forgiveness of christ...& the whole "do unto others" bit. so if i can't forgive, i can never be forgiven. i guess that's what gets me. i don't want to die completely unforgiven & unredeemable.

By TBone on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 01:31 pm:

    Does that make God unforgivable?

By Hal on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 01:40 pm:


By crimson on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 01:45 pm:

    good point. of course, there's the whole xtian take on the forgiveness thing...that god can forgive you through christ (but why not personally, one-on-one?)...i vaguely remember asking something like that when i was a kid. after getting slapped down for blasphemy, i was told that god can't abide sin, so he can't really forgive it. but he's so merciful that he sent christ to make a way toward forgiveness by proxy. christ was also a way to permanently replace animal sacrifice...formerly the only way that god could forgive people. i'm not sure i understood it when i was a kid, & i'm not so sure i understand it now.

By J on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 01:55 pm:

    I'm just going to wait till the last minute,and then ask the big spirit in the sky for forgiveness,and then hope I get lucky.

By crimson on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 01:59 pm:

    yeah. i'm just scared i won't get that last minute of consciousness...that an anvil will suddenly drop out of the sky or something, killing me instantly. then i won't have those 3 glorious seconds to snivel & cringe for eternal pardon.

By The Watcher on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 05:08 pm:

    I heard an ineresting proverb once; Hindu I believe.

    It went something like this:

    He who sits patiently upon the river bank will eventually see the remains of his enemies float by.

    I can attest to that.

    Once when I was in the ER for a minor problem. I saw one of my childhood tormentors, death threats and everything, wheeled in from a major car accident.

    I didn't care weather he lived or died. It just felt good to see him suffering.

    I think he lived though it.

By heather on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 05:13 pm:

    how could it feel GOOD to see anyone suffering?

    a fucking childhood tormentor? big deal.


By The Watcher on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 06:12 pm:

    I wasn't that much older at the time.

    You obviously have never been the victum of sadistic people.

    It felt good to see him recieve some of what he had given out.

    It also felt good that I hadn't caused any of his pain. But, it still was nice to see.

By Frank on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 06:14 pm:

    What heather said.

By Frank on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 06:17 pm:

    So, Watcher, you're sadistic about enjoying seeing people suffering but you're not about to inflict it yourself?

    Also, are you really saying that this person put people into Emergency Medical Services regularly and maliciously?

By crimson on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 06:19 pm:

    i understand what you're saying, watcher. anyone who dismisses the effects of childhood bullies was never bullied quite enough. anyway, that's the hell of it...i can see both sides of the forgiveness issue. i can see the side that leans toward some kind of great cosmic forgiveness & i can see the side in which i'd smile serenely while watching my enemies hit the wall at 200 MPH.

By semillama on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 06:55 pm:


    Thank "Bob" for righteous hating. That feels GOOD!
    The hell I'm forgiving those nuts outside the abortion clinic every time I go to get a donut. The last thing I want to see before I eat a good donut is some dumbshits waving signs and harassing women.

By Nate on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 07:06 pm:

    you can see an abortion clinic from somewhere you can eat a donut? how cool is that.

    from the deleted scenes in fight club i saw the orginal line HBCarter spoke to BPitt instead of "i haven't been fucked that well since fifth grade" (or whatever she said.) cut line "i want to have your abortion." how cool is that.

By agatha on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 07:40 pm:

    not very cool at all.

By Nate on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 09:49 pm:


By Pug on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 04:36 pm:

    I sort of dug that....they had to cut the potentially controversial line and so they inserted one that was WORSE. VERY cool.
    Watcher, I've been there, I know what you're saying....I had that much hatred and more for my childhood tormentors....but I think I managed to successfully purge those demons with my first novel(as yet unpublished)....
    It's hard to tell Crimson what to do, knowing her situation up-close and personal.....the thing about light (in my opinion) is darkness and light aren't that clear-cut, and sometimes one is really the other. I also know people who claim to "walk in the light"....they're some of the darkest motherfuckers I know.
    But that's why I can't wrap my head around any kind of religion, or any institution that has clear cut definitions of light/dark and other things. That kind of absolutism has nothing to do with reality.

By Antigone on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 08:33 pm:

    No doubt about that, Pug.

By semillama on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 03:12 pm:

    Well, no, you can't see it, but I have to drive by it to get to the Tim Horton's where all the crazy people eat.

    see what you miss Mavis?

By sarah on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 05:01 pm:

    this is the job i didn't get.

    those fuckers. fuck fuck fuckers. i am SO qualified for that job, it's unreal.

    in the 2nd interview i was asked questions like, "what is your favorite food?" i answered, "chocolate".

    i should sue them. if i had the energy.

By Platypus on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 09:18 pm:

    And they rejected you because...why?

    That's very lame, Sarah.

By pez on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 02:37 am:


    people i wouldn't mind having voodoo poppets of:

    kroger corporation.
    brandon smith (management asshole, the makeup boy).
    and the guy who decided that it was time to let me have an obscene phone call.

    i screamed as soon as i got outside afteer the end of my shift.

By patrick on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 11:54 am:

    i love obscene phone calls.

    I wish i would get one.

By pez on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 11:59 am:

    it's not fun when you're having a bad day at work already.

By Hal on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 05:10 pm:

    Never gotten one...

    No one loves me enough to call me up and say obscene things to me.

By pez on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 01:46 am:

    note to self.....

    buy another phone card.

By wisper on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 03:24 am:

    i knew she was going to say that

By TBone on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 10:02 am:

    I knew wisper was going to say that.

By semillama on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 10:56 am:

    I know that Tbone is touching himself.

By TBone on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 11:05 am:

    Damn. I gotta keep the blinds closed.

By Hal on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 12:21 pm:

    I've been telling you that for years.

By Chupacabra on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 12:43 pm:

    I know the Chupacabra!

By Hal on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 12:50 pm:

    Alright I'm sorry to all of the rest of you, I know I've been repremanded for this in the past... But the GOAT FUCKER is pissing me off.... SHUT THE FUCK UP ASS.

By Nate on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 12:55 pm:

    actually, he's a goat sucker.

By Chupacabra on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 01:00 pm:

By bell_jar on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 01:54 pm:

    very disappointing. i was expecting something obscene.

By Nate on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 01:55 pm:

    that rotting cat was kind of obscene.

    er, rotting chupacabrita.

By semillama on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 03:16 pm:

    Was that a cat? I kind of thougth so, but then I thought it was one of those blunt-faced dogs, like a pit bull or rottweiler.

    Chupacabras taste fine with minced garlic in a vinagrette sauce, I find.

By Chupacabra on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 03:40 pm:

    Chupacabra will not make pithy counter pun ala Hannibal Lecter! No! You shove your fava beans up a goat, filthy pigdog!!!

By Nate on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 04:32 pm:

    shush now, chupacabrita.

The Stalking Post: General goddam chit-chat Every 3 seconds: Sex . Can men and women just be friends? . Dreamland . Insomnia . Are you stoned? . What are you eating? I need advice: Can you help? . Reasons to be cheerful . Days and nights . Words . Are there any news? Wishful thinking: Have you ever... . I wish you were... . Why I oughta... Is it art?: This question seems to come up quite often around here. Weeds: Things that, if erased from our cultural memory forever, would be no great loss Surfwatch: Where did you go on the 'net today? What are you listening to?: Worst music you've ever heard . What song or tune is going through your head right now? . Obscure composers . Obscure Jazz, 1890-1950 . Whatever, whenever General Questions: Do you have any regrets? . Who are you? . Where are you? . What are you doing here? . What have you done? . Why did you do it? . What have you failed to do? . What are you wearing? . What do you want? . How do you do? . What do you want to do today? . Are you stupid? Specific Questions: What is the cruelest thing you ever did? . Have you ever been lonely? . Have you ever gone hungry? . Are you pissed off? . When is the last time you had sex? . What does it look like where you are? . What are you afraid of? . Do you love me? . What is your definition of Heaven? . What is your definition of Hell? Movies: Last movie you saw . Worst movie you ever saw . Best movie you ever saw Reading: Best book you've ever read . Worst book you've ever read . Last book you read Drunken ramblings: uiphgy8 hxbjf.bklf ghw789- bncgjkvhnqwb=8[ . Payphones: Payphone Project BBS . torturechamber . . receipts . contact