Dereliciton of Duty Last book you read: Dereliciton of Duty

By spunky on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 03:53 pm:

    Dereliction of Duty: The Eyewitness Account of How Bill Clinton Endangered America's Long-Term National Security


    PP 129-142

    Chapter Seven
    The War on Terrorism

    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war is worse...
    A man who has nothing which he cares more about then he does about his peronal safety is a miserable creature who has no change of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself

    -John Stuaret Mill
    "The Contest in America"
    Dissertations and Discussions

    Abridged or word for word quotes?

By Antigone on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 04:47 pm:

    "has no change of being free"

    "John Stuaret Mill"

    Abridged and misspelled.

    So, this is a quote of John Stuart Mill from a book on Bill Clinton?

    You're quoting a quote of a quote from this book?


By Antigone on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 04:48 pm:

By Antigone on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 04:52 pm:

    Try this quote:

    "When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people. A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice; a war to give victory to their own ideas of right and good, and which is their own war, carried on for an honest purpose by their free choice--is often the means of their regeneration."

By Antigone on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 04:53 pm:

    Note the phrase "honest purpose"

By Antigone on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 04:57 pm:

    Also note that this is a pamphlet justifying the North's war against the South, the so called "War of Northern Aggression."

By spunky on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 04:59 pm:

    Page 139

    Durring the summer of the 1996 attacks, I myself learned first hand that the administration knew that terrorists were plotting to use commercial airliners as weapons. The president received a Presidential Daily Brief, or PDB, every morning.
    One late-summer Saturday morning, the President asked me to pick up a few day's worth of PDBs that had accumulated in the Oval Office. He gave them to me with handwritten notes stuffed inside.
    I opened the PDB to rearrange the notes and noticed the heading "Operation Bojinka"
    I keyed on a reference to a plot to use commercial airliners as weapons and another plot to put bombs on US airliners. I can state for a fact that this information was circulated withing the US intelligence community, and that in late 1996 the president was aware of it.

By Antigone on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 05:17 pm:

    And, the Clinton administration tried to brief the Bush administration on terrorists threats.

    The Bush team wouldn't give them the time of day...

By spunky on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 05:25 pm:



    BETWEEN 1996-2001 (FIVE YEARS)
    The best they could do was brief the next administration???????????????????????????????

    Weak, tiggy, fucking weak

By spunky on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 05:32 pm:

    lets look at the facts.
    1993-2001 10 seperate al-queda attacks against US targets.

    They wait until december 2000 to put a plan together?

By Antigone on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 05:46 pm:

    If you read the article, the plan was in response to the USS Cole.

    October, 2000

By Antigone on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 05:47 pm:

    I think you're afraid to look at the facts. Otherwise, you would have read the whole article.

    BTW, when are you going to bet me about the anthrax?

By Antigone on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 05:49 pm:

    If you're so keen on the issue, why don't you list out all of Clinton's responses to Al Queda during that time period?

    Or, are you afraid to?

By Antigone on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 05:51 pm:

    And, try to not use Mill to back up your arguments.

    He will fucking destroy you.

    Try actually reading some of his writings, first.

By patrick on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 06:08 pm:

    when Clinton did respond for the two embassy bombings in Nairobi and somewhere else I can't recall he was accused by the right as 'wagging the dog'

    the motherfucker couldnt win one way or the other, because the conservative right tied his hands domestically with trivial shit.

By spunky on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 06:37 pm:

    Sure, let see here....

    Aside from a few FBI investigations, a couple of cruise missiles lobbed at Afganistan and the Sudan, that is it.

    Except for turning bin Laden down, and this following episode:

    THE WHITE HOUSE SITUATION ROOM was bussing. It was fall 1998 and the NSC and the "intel community" were tracking Osam Bin Laden.

    "They've succesfully triangulated his location" yelled a sit room watch stander. "We've got him"

    Beneath the West Wing of the White House, behind a vaulted steel door, the Sit Room staff sprang into action. The watchofficer notified National Security Advisor Sandy Berger, "Sir, we've located bin Laden. We have a two-hour window to strike"

    I am paraphrasing the rest, it would be too long otherwise:

    Berger went to call the President, who was not available. He tried to call him 2 more times, no answer. The men were in position, the tomahawks were ready to go, just waiting for authorization.
    Two hour window closing rapidly.
    Finally, clinton accepted his call. there was discussion, pauses, but no decision. He wanted to study the issue further. the president called back. he was still indecisive. The window closed before he came to a decision.

    Remember, this is after the first wtc bombing, Mogadishu, where we fought Al-Queda because they were helping disrupt the humanitarian aide, 11/95 in Riyadh wich cost 7 lives and 40 wounded, June 96, Khobar Towers wich cost 19 airmen and 515 were wounded, August 7, 1998 US embasies in Nairobi Kenya and Dar es Salaam, 224 killed, 5,000 wounded (that was what spurred the missiles into sudan and afghanistan) followed by the Cole, which cost 17 seamen and 29 wounded.

By Rowlf on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 06:46 pm:

    if it was supposedly such common knowledge that terrorism was a problem and clinton was dodging it, how come terrorism was never an issue in the campaigns, and nothing ever happened til Sept 11? Bush since then has only been taking advantage, in the same way any other president would take advantage of a nations fear and rage. If Republicans inherently get to the root of these problems the war on terror would have begun on Day One of Bush's fake presidency.

    the Reps are playing revisionist history, for 10 years they didnt rise up and encourage the leaders to do anything about it. Its politics. Cynicism speaking:
    They sat and waited around for THEIR guy to be in office and reap the rewards, rather than let the OTHER guy get the credit for their idea.. who knows? there could have been a phony war under Dole, long before any attack. Or, if nothing happened with 9/11, or the next couple years, noone could have done anything about it til 2009. Lets not pretend the Reps were elected to protect America. I seem to recall some penis issue people were voting in revenge for.

    I recall clinton being accused of wagging the dog by the right AND the left.. it probably dug him a deeper hole.

By spunky on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 06:48 pm:

    "and nothing ever happened til Sept 11?"

    Rowlf, you been paying attention?

By Rowlf on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 06:48 pm:

    well you can argue about the scale of what each of them has done spunk, but without 9/11, Bush possibly could have worked the same strategy. A few bombs here, a few bombs there. You dont know and will never know because 9/11 happened on 9/11/01 and not 9/11/96. Its not the same playing field. Knocking out two towers in the most heavily guarded airspace in the entire world required too many failures to count and should be regarded as typical.

    Clinton and Bush have a couple things in common: neither caught Hussein or bin Laden

By spunky on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 06:52 pm:

    "Day One of Bush's fake presidency."
    Wow, look at that. You just ended this conversation.

By Antigone on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 06:59 pm:

    This was never a conversation.

    You can't defend your man, so you're trying to dredge up irrelevant stuff from the past. Simple as that.

    Besides, this isn't an argument you can win. If you prove that Clinton was irresponsible about terrorism, you immediately prove that Bush was too. Bush did nothing before 9/11. So, go ahead! For you, it's a lose/lose.

    Anyway, I've got two words for you: ANTHRAX BET.

By Antigone on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 07:06 pm:

    If you really believed we would find WMD in Iraq, you would bet me $50.

    But you don't. So you won't.

    It's as simple as that.

By spunky on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 07:09 pm:

    2 words for you
    HELL NO.

    I don't think there are any WMD left in country.

By jack on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 08:12 pm:

    is this a new conversation or is this the one that "ended"?

By Antigone on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 04:11 pm:

    So, all of the WMD (and any evidence of their destruction) were just spirited away, eh?

    How awfully convenient.

By spunky on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 05:20 pm:

    how stupid of them not to have been...

    Udday and Qussay are no more.

By spunky on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 05:43 pm:

    Sorry, Odai and Qusai are no more

By patrick on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 06:40 pm:

    Odai and Qusai avehay oughtbay hetay armfay.


By Antigone on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 07:45 pm:

    dimlu, I'll bet you're just itching to say "I told you so" or something like that. Ain't ye? Come on...admit it!

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