My life What is your definition of hell?: My life

By spunky on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 12:34 pm:

    that's all, just my life.
    I make everyone around me miserable.
    I hurt those that I hold dearest to me the most.

    I am HELL.

By spunky on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 12:39 pm:

    let me reprase the title of this thread.
    it should be What is your definition of hell?
    Life with me.

By kazu on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 12:48 pm:


    Please open up. You have to know that despite all the arguing and the insults that we care about you a lot. Or at least write to one of us. I know that if I really needed to, and didn't feel like I could post it here, I could write to someone get some advice.

    Please Spunky, I'm worried. Maybe it's not my business, but I do care.

By spunky on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 12:51 pm:

    It's not me I am worried about.
    It's eri.
    I don't want to make this about me.
    I am of the leaste concern here.

By kazu on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 01:03 pm:

    That's not how it works.

    In a long-term partnership/family thing taking care of yourself is part of taking care of other people.

    The two are not so easily separated.

By patrick on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 01:04 pm:

    take a week from work, spend money you don't have on a credit card and hit the Days Inn somewhere on the Gulf for a week and sort it out on the beach as the kids play in the surf and you and your wife polish off some bloody marys at 10:30am.

    and if you havent by now....lay off the tylenol pm.

    and its ok to make it about you sometimes.

    you can be a rock all the time.

By patrick on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 01:06 pm:


    you can't be a rock

By eri on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 01:12 pm:

    I posted something on here but it apparently dissappeared. All the better. It doesn't need to be said again anyways.

    Spunky needs to stop thinking that this is his fault. That he is the sole reason for all of this. There is no time to change it. There is nothing that we have enough time to do. So I am resigned to going along and staying in my little cave of loneliness and frustration.

    I will be a good wife and go back into my cave. After all, what else can I do?

By patrick on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 01:15 pm:

    pack the fucking car, spend someone else's money and head to the god damn Gulf for a week.

    im telling you.

    do something risky and selfish at the same time guys.

By eri on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 01:30 pm:

    No money, no car, no babysitter, no time.

By patrick on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 01:44 pm:

    credit card. rental. bring kids. make time.

By eri on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 01:57 pm:

    no credit card....and there is no time to make. All I have time left for is to say goodbye.

By Antigone on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 02:10 pm:

    Ooo. That don't sound good.

    Hang in there, yall. I hope everything works out.

By semillama on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 02:34 pm:

    Hey, we may have different worldviews, but in other realms outside the political, the both of you seem like good people and I hope whatever it is can be worked out.

By spunky on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 03:52 pm:

    thanks sem.
    i think you know how eri and i feel about you two...
    This too, shall pass.

    The job's moving on us.
    This happened before, and we moved to San Antonio.
    It looks like it is getting ready to move again, to Montgomery, AL
    Only last time, we had just lost Eri's grandmother, and wanted to get away from her parents and her sister and my folks.
    This time is way different.
    Within the past few months, eri has told you all what she is doing.
    Now she fills full filled, and moving will rip that apart for her. And it's killing me.
    She told me she would never be the same again, that she needs this group as much as she needs me and the girls.
    So now I am Mr Ogre, ripping her apart from something she needs.
    And I don'tknow how to feel.
    I could quit my job, but is that really a good idea?
    Network Security/Sys admins are a dime a dozen out here.
    I asked my boss yesterday what the alternatives would be, and he laughed.
    "we have worked on getting you moved out there for 6 months so you can keep your job, it is a bit late to be asking about alternatives"......

    What do I do?
    hurt the person I charish more then life and move us so I can keep providing?
    Or quit, and hope I can find another job before her dad jumps in his truck and comes down here to kill me for not paying the student loan he co-signed for, and loose my truck? not to mention getting evicted and starving.....

By patrick on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 04:20 pm:

    "What do I do?
    hurt the person I charish more then life and move us so I can keep providing?
    Or quit, and hope I can find another job before her dad jumps in his truck and comes down here to kill me for not paying the student loan he co-signed for, and loose my truck? not to mention getting evicted and starving...."

    WHooooooa now.

    One thing at a time.

    If you havent been looking for other work, you should. ASAP.

    I think you should also play hardball with your employer.

    If you're going to transfer me...fine. But Im not moving my family, and I'll need a small one-bedroom to live in if you want to work for you in AL.

    They sound like they are taking full advantage of the fact that you're a good 'Yes Man' and thats not a shot at your integrity. Its a compliment to your work ethic. Im just saying, you need to stiff arm them a bit more. Don't forget you are an asset to them. Utilize the power of negotiation.

    All while simultaneously finding new work.

    Don't worry about her dad and don't worry about loosing your truck. These worries are useless at this point in time.

    So fine. Net/Sys security admins are a dime a dozen. Can it get you a foot in the door in a related position? Why stick to that one niche. Expand your horizons. Look at everything as anything is possible. Think of all the places your skills are useful. Don't simply rely on the papers and classifieds. Search up corporate websites and contact human resources of say...some of the biggest corps in San An. Surely some of the bigger employers have positions in their tech depts. Again, maybe not exactly what you're doing now but something.

    I don't think you should move for the sake of well as your wife. I said this before when it came up.

    You just need to get the hussle on to find other and im pretty confident you can if you get creative and aggressive enough.

By Antigone on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 04:39 pm:

    Persue the apartment perk. Apartment rent is insanely low in Alabama.

By semillama on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 04:41 pm:

    I figured this was what was going on.

    On one hand, I sympathize with how Eri feels, and on the other, I'm totally with you as well. It's hard to let a good job go in this job environment, especially one that seems to have let your family have a parent around at all times. That's pretty rare nowadays.
    And it's also hard to leave a group of friends, especially after successfully making them in a new place. I know how hard that is to do, I still don't have any friends outside the office context (not counting those friends who used to work for me).

    I don't like dishing out advice like I was some sort of guru, but if you asked, I would say what you both need to do is put this into the perspective of the long-term of your lives. It may suck now, but what are the advantages for the long term? Do they outweigh the disadvantages of the short term?

    Can you at least push your boss for more/better benefits and a raise?

    I know that this situation is going to come up with Kazu and I, as I have a pretty good stable job here, but there will be a point after she gets her PhD that she will be looking for that professorship, and we'll have to move to where the job is. Hopefully by that point I will have my debts paid off or close to paid off so a time without work for me won't break me financially. Of course, the best scenario would be that I will be able to find a comparable job right away in the area she finds work.

By patrick on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 04:41 pm:

    and they should cover travel costs for you to come back home twice a month.

By eri on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 05:14 pm:

    See I read this and I feel like a selfish, greedy little bitch.

    We left my best friend in the world behind when we came here. It's very hard, on her, and us and both of our kids. We still do everything we can to see each other as often as possible. It works out kinda, cuz her parents live in Denton, so she can come down here and visit us when she goes to visit them, and vice versa. This transfer will nip that in the bud and whenever a special holiday comes around she will be trying to decide whether to see her family or me. I don't want to put her in that position. Things are hard enough as it is.

    There was the possibility of this transfer a long time ago, so I stayed here in the apartment, played the whole Donna Reed role of the housewife, and didn't bother making friends, because what is the point if we are going to be leaving anyways. I was not happy at all, but just dealth with it.

    Then they told Spunky that there was no way he was going to get this transfer and that we were going to be staying here for good. I was really tired of this game of where we were going to live and was glad to have it settled. So I got out. I made friends...good friends...and have this whole amazing life going on where I am so happy, with everything in my life being full, family, friends, marriage, children, a night out here and there, the ability to just be myself and no longer play games of being someone I am not. These past two months have probably been the happiest of my life. Ever. So now....fuck you, you get transferred. Oh, and the contract is signed on Monday, so tonight will be the last time I see half of the clans and the drumming circles on Saturday will be the last time I see my friends from PNO. And I get to go back to what I had and what I was before. The miserable, lonely do gooder fucking housewife. The person I don't like.

    And I have to face not seeing S but maybe once every couple of years, and face doing the same thing with everyone here, including Kebron, who is just about as close to me as S is.

    Last time I knew there was a reason for this change in my life and I accepted it. I knew when I lost my grandmother that I was being prepared for a major change in my life and the ONLY hard part about the whole thing was being farther away from S and her kids. I only cried once, as we left and her daughter broke down crying cuz she didn't want me to go. But I don't have that feeling this time. There is no major life change that Spunky and I need to make. We don't have some "next phase of our lives" that we are preparing to move on to. We don't have things we need to escape in order to grow. This isn't the same at all.

    I said I would be perfectly happy taking some night-time job (so we didn't have to pay for day care) to help make up for some money lost if he took a lower paying job. I guess the money isn't as important to me as what we are losing. We could go back to working at Wal-Mart or whatever, so long as we find a way to pay the bills. I don't fucking care where the money comes from or if I have to go back to work myself.

    And this isn't even going to touch the kids. Micki has playmates and friends for the first time ever in her life. She gets invited to slumber parties. Hayley is going to be ripped out of a school and put in a new one yet again, in the middle of the school year, yet again. New teachers, new friends, new everything, and she has finally built up some decent friends here and is progressing like a normal kid, instead of a transplant. Now we are making her a transplant all over again.

    I don't know if I have the strength to go thru all of this again. It hurt so much last time, but this time it is opening and old wound and adding more to it. I am not just going to be farther away from S, but I also have to say goodbye to all of these people here whom I care so much about.

    And I don't get the priveledge of being able to break down for much longer, cuz once this is rolling (like next fucking week) I will have to be the rock, to get things done, to make sure my kids are allright and help them to adjust, and make sure they are emotionally healthy. Get the place packed, and then unpacked, and make sure all goes well for Spunky at his new job. I get to go back to hiding in my four walls, and wishing I were someone else, somewhere else, not knowing where I will end up when all I want to do is to STAY THE FUCK HERE.

    And to top it all off Spunky's boss says something to him about how new jobs are easier to find there than they are here thus insinuating that once the contract is up (like within 1 year) he will be jobless anyways. And Spunky has said countless times he wants out of this contractor shit.

    So I want to do that...get out of the contractor shit, get a decent job with security that he likes, and STAY HERE where we have everything we need both physically and emotionally.

By patrick on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 05:25 pm:

    i think you guys need to circle the wagons and stay in SA.

    it may be tough on paper, but i think the emotional ramifications of doing tought things as one unit is a lot more rewarding than taking the easy way out and going to AL

By TBone on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 05:28 pm:

    If you guys really think they'll drop Spunky after a year, I can't see any good reason to move.
    And they gave you only a week or two notice that you're to move? Do you really want to work for an employer with so little regard for the people who work for them?
    And all that stuff everyone else said.

By semillama on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 05:33 pm:

    I agree with patrick. At least in San An-tone you have a group of people who can lend support, whereas if, as Spunky's (jerk- sounds like one) boss implies, he's going to be SOL after a year in Montgomery, then it doesn't sound worth it.

    And a job that requires you to rip up your roots every year or so does not sound like a keeper for a guy with a family. So, go two income. Spunky may not have a lot of luck finding another job doing the same thing, but he seems like he's a very hard worker and responsible and is pretty bright. He sounds employable to me. Although you guys may have to settle for service industry management jobs and crap like that.

    After all, when you die, they don't put "Beloved Employee of BlandCorp" on your headstone, do they?

    (although they may end up putting "This headstone brought to you by Pepsi - the choice of a new generation" on it, the way things are going)

By Antigone on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 05:36 pm:

    Ya, sounds like a pickle, all the way around.

    Dunno what to tell you.


    eri, you're not being a selfish bitch.


    spunky, you're not making everyone miserable, it's primarily the shitty circumstance you're in.

    If it helps any, there does seem to be a pagan community in Montgomery:

    Also, there's a Unitarian/Universalist fellowship there:

    The UU church in Birmingham was a very tight knit, service oriented community. Maybe the Montgomery group is the same. At the very least they'd know of the pagan groups.

    So, eri, it's possible to find people sympathetic to your beliefs in Alabama. Spunky, of course, will have no problem. :P

    Anyway, moving sucks, but in this labor market times are tough. Spunky may not be able to find another job, even a lower paying one. All of the laid off folks from the higher paying jobs are looking to take them...

By eri on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 05:53 pm:

    I have no issues with doing the two income thing. I don't care if I have to take some crappy fast food job.

    We made ends meet, though not always easily, before, and we can do it again, but it has to be something we both want.

    Although I don't have a problem taking those steps backwards so to speak to stay here, I don't think Spunky feels the same way. He has worked hard to get where he is and I know that.

    I don't blame Spunky for the transfer. It's a shitty situation, but in the long run, I don't know how much of it I can take. Right now I am being asked to give up everything I have built myself. Throw it away. In many ways asking spunky to take a lower paying job would be asking him to do the same thing and that is not fair to him either.

By patrick on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 06:27 pm:

    he has worked hard to get where he's at but if there is no foreseable future or advancement by going to AL then it doesnt really matter.

    my step dad has travelled a lot in his prof career.

    i mean a lot.

    he's a civil engineer project manager

    where ever the company had a contract, he went. BUT, they set up living quarters and paid for flights back home.

    He's been with Glaxo Smith Kline for 10 odd years now. He has had stints in Shanghai, Toronto, and very recently it was a possibility he would be in Brussels overseeing various construction. Granted he is in senior mgmt, but they've always paid his way and with an apartment, car and traveL expense account. They even had a program where, when he was in Shanghai for an extended amount of time, they would fly my mom to visit. But then again Glaxo has been notorious for being very good to their employees.

    Such a type of work environment is hard. It sounds like they are taking you for granted spunk.

By eri on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 06:39 pm:

    My Dad used to do that for AT&T. My mom and us girls stayed home in Torrance and Dad travelled. Then we moved to Apple Valley and he travelled. Then they moved to Kansas City and he didn't have to travel. Forced retirement, went to Sprint, now he is travelling.....again. They only put him up in hotels, though and never apartments.

By spunky on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 06:41 pm:

    we have not gone into relocation negotiations yet.

    That student loan i mentioned? 17k, at 250 a month for 15 years.
    that is for my network engineering, network management, network security, system admin, system network, system engineer, etc etc etc

    in this field, well, really the entire MIS field, you miss a year, you might as well hang it up.
    Booz Allen Pays up to 10K a year for education, plus, Lockheed Martin is in Montgomery, and they say they cannot find ANYONE with my knowledge and experience, in and around Montgomery, and they start out at about 20k a year more then I am making now.

    I have to work for a year in Alabama so Booz Allen will not make me pay the relocation expenses back.

    And for the record, not once did I think you were being a selfish bitch. I would never think that of you......
    I am trying to do what's best for us, and for the kids.
    I know I wont be able to pay for the kid's college, but by the time they are ready to move out, I want us in a position to be able to pay to have thier electric or phone or cable or what ever turned on, or kept on if need be, I want to be able to pay a couple of car payments for them when times get tough.
    And wal-mart or best buy will not cut it.
    And I made a promise to you that I would make something of myself professionaly so I could take care of you like you deserve.

By J on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 07:00 pm:

    I had to move several times when my husband started out,not out of state but to isolated dams I hated it,one place was so isolated they had a one roon school house and it took 2 hours on a terrifying road to go to town every two weeks for groceries,one we didn't even have a phone,but in the end, that experience for my husband got him where he is today.Looking back it was the best way we could help ourselves.I'd go along with the move and see if Spunky can bid up to a higher position once he's there.You'll make new friends(but keep the old)and so will the kids.I bet there are plenty of things to do there.

By patrick on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 07:08 pm:

    you're a lot closer to the gulf in AL for sure.

    hey, maybe you can negotiate paid time off spunk.

    take the family, while your shits being all moved and crap, and head for the panhandle for a week, then do the bloody mary, beach 10am deal.

    its technically off season so rates in hotels should be really really really cheap.

    im tellin you, nothing spells relief like some time on the beach, in salty air, getting a buzz before lunch.

By Antigone on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 07:13 pm:

    "...and they start out at about 20k a year more then I am making now."

    Now, that's something to consider. In Alabama, that 20k will go a lot further. No kidding. Cost of living there is WAY lower than anywhere else I've lived. I even considered buying a house there and making Birmingham my base of operations if I were to become a travelling consultant.

    With an extra 20k per year you could buy a house instead of living in an apartment. Eri? You listening? :)

By spunky on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 08:40 pm:

    we will figure something out.
    I am going to suggest i fly back and forth until after the holidays, since they are coming right up

By dave. on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 10:58 pm:

    yay business!! let's give the sonsabitches even more autonomy. screw that worker's rights shit.

    sorry, spunketeers. that's one shitty sitch.

By eri on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 11:22 am:

    The extra 20k a year isn't important to me. It is to Spunky, but it isn't to me. Money is not the reason we are in an apartment. Money is not the reason we aren't in a house. The instability of when/where/what would happen with this transfer was the reason and then we just signed on for 6 months so we would have time to look for a house. We were going to have a house in February anyways.

    I guess this is where it is getting difficult. We don't need to be rich to survive or be happy. We don't need lots and lots and lots of money.

    So to me, the money isn't all that important. So yes, I am listeneing, but I don't really care.

By patrick on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 02:46 pm:

    but money can offer you the freedom and flexibility to handle these situations better in the future.

    if spunk earned an extra 20k, he'd be in a better position to tell his boss and AL to fuck off and could buy himself some time to find another job in SA, without everything being so critical.

    plus you could hit the Gulf for a week and follow my cocktails/morning/beach remedy.

By Antigone on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 02:50 pm:

    You do need extra money do do things like save for college, handle unexpected health expenses, etc.

By eri on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 03:13 pm:

    OK, I know all of the reasons to have extra money, but I am past that point. I simply don't fucking care anymore. I am so emotionally worn out. I don't care.

By Nate on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 03:32 pm:

    one big thing i learned when i was laid off was that life is more important than career. more important than having the extra money. i'd rather be dirt poor and enjoy my life than have a six figure salary and live at the office.

    i understand not everyone holds this view, though.

    and i have only myself to look out for.

By patrick on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 04:16 pm:

    but it took being laid off to realize that no?

    its a personal view but i think it depends on where you are standing.

    your close to the beach and the pre-noon buzz in the surf (until recently) was an easy option for you. id rather be poor in CA than any where else, thats for damn sure.

By hetaher on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 04:50 pm:

    sure is easy to be poor in california


By trace on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 05:15 pm:

    well guys, thanks for all of your suggestions and support.
    in the end, it is family that counts.
    don't ever loose sight of that.

    Thanks sorabji.


By V.v. on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 10:37 pm:

    regarding money,the secret is try to get all them small bills sorted with one consoledated loan,so you go from 30-33 percent interest down to 8 or 9 percent,its not allways easy to get,but if you do it can turn your life around.

By V.v. on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 11:09 pm:

    ERI,if you do have to move,lean on your friends for more contacts in the new location,people know people.Regarding Drumming circles there must be an underground network of like minded people.For what its worth im allways trying to look out for you,clear your path of obstacles.You are a fine person and a blessing upon humanity,tonight i will light two blue candles for you and pray for your wellbeing.Lady Bless.

By spunky on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 01:50 pm:

    Sometimes, you have to drive all the way into hell before you realize you have taken a wrong turn somewhere, and gotten off course.

    But, that drive into hell saved your life.
    And you come back out stronger and better then before.

    I am talking to my boss on Monday.
    If we cannot find a way to allow my family to stay here in San Antonio, and I can still do what they want me to do, then I will have to look elsewhere.

    I married Eri, not Booz Allen.

By agatha on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 02:29 pm:

    Yay! I was hoping you would say that.

    Pardon my saying so, but the company you work for treats you like shit.

By spunky on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 02:45 pm:

    no need to pardon anything. Thanks.

    I think I have cried more durring the last 24 hours then I have since we lost eri's grandma.

By heather on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 02:50 pm:

    so many companies treat people shitty these days, it's sad.

By V.v. on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 03:57 am:

    Jobs are like lottery tickets,most are shit,but some are winners.

By patrick on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 02:15 pm:

    hey spunk you might be interested in this.

    Booz Allen named in top 100 of companies for working moms.

    "These companies are very committed to work/life programs for their employees despite the tough economic conditions," says Jill Kirschenbaum, editor-in-chief of Working Mother.

    just incase you didnt feel like a chump today.

    feel free to use this to make your case, if need be.

    you should have to have a vagina to benefit. working mother. working father.

By semillama on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 02:28 pm:

    Should or shouldn't?

By patrick on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 02:34 pm:

    should not

By spunky on Wednesday, September 24, 2003 - 10:42 am:

    Thanks for that Patrick.
    Funny I had to hear it here before at work.......................................

By V.v. on Wednesday, September 24, 2003 - 06:04 pm:

    Spunky,just dont ever give up,right?you know what the Red Indians say?A MAN DIES WHEN HE NO LONGER WANTS TO LIVE.

By semillama on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 10:23 am:

    wow. I don't think I have ever heard anyone actually use that term before. Interesting.

By spunky on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 11:23 am:

    There was a period, from around 1 in the afternoon on Friday to around 1 on Saturday afternoon when I no longer wanted to live.
    Those wounds are not as quick to heal as I would like, because when your heart is broken that completely, and your trust is smashed, and you loose all faith, you are devestated. I was in this trance, like I was no longer connected with any form of reality. I slept on the couch that night, or rather tried to sleep. Mikayla knew something was wrong, however I doubt she knew exactly how close her life as she knew came to being totally obliviated. All she knew is she needed to sleep on daddy's shoulders, needed to be in physical contact with daddy. after i finally got her settled at around 3, i fell into fitfull dreams, nightmares.
    When eri and i talked again the next day, first thing in the morning, it still looked hopeless.
    Then, for some reason, after she talked with her dad, she said if I was committed to making this work (I never said I was not, I thought "I'm not the one giving up") then we could give this one, last chance.
    I was thrilled, beyond belief, but I still cannot help but think that I blundered into this so blindly, without any clue that things were so rotten that the time had come to end it, that how could I ever be sure to avoid this again? I knew we had problems, but what marriage is perfect? There are always issues, always room for growth. What had I done that was so bad, so rotten to the core, that there was no choice but to kill our marriage? How could I avoid repeating whatever that was?

    But, of course, I am just being insecure and questioning myself too much.

    It is fading, that feeling. I am feeling better every day. But for now, when I see her upset or seemingly depressed, I still cannot help but fear that i had done what ever it was I did before again.......

By Nate on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 01:57 pm:

    'red indian' seems to be the common term in the UK.

By semillama on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 02:17 pm:

    i've noticed that, actually. it's likely because when an Englishmen refers to an 'Indian', due to their colonial history, is taking about someone from India, whereas due to OUR colonial history, it's a Native American.

By Nate on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 02:21 pm:

    i've found that in the uk when talking about someone from india they call them 'asian', whereas when talking about someone we would normally call 'asian' the call 'chinese'.

    though i may be wrong on the last bit. it just seemed that way.

    also, both cases are british colonial history, aren't they? i mean, when you consider manifest destiny, you aren't really making colonies, are you.

By V.v. on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 11:45 pm:

    Sem,i just need to get a WEBSTERS,so i can speak American,and i dont ever feel ENGLISH,cuz at school,i was allways regarded as a foreign bastard,and told to go back to my own Country.Nowadays,im proud of my background of wealthy [ex] landowners from Lithuania.

By V.v. on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 12:10 am:

    Nate,i expect there are a few old colonial English about,but an awfull lot of Londoners seem to have black skin.The way its going,white folks may no longer exist 1000 years from now.Ive got no hate for blacks,i only tell you what i see with my own eyes.

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