Hillary Clinton


sorabji.com: What is your definition of hell?: Hillary Clinton
THIS IS A READ-ONLY ARCHIVE FROM THE SORABJI.COM MESSAGE BOARDS (1995-2016).

By Rowlfe on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 04:34 am:

    wow, remember the days of constant fighting on here before the war began... seems so long ago now.

    But i'm intrigued where people are standing today with the primaries running, favorites on either side.

    I have to say over the last couple months I've really come to hate Hillary Clinton. I'm not an out and out supporter of Obama OR Edwards, I find strengths and weaknesses in both, but Bill and Hillary's tag teaming and Rove-style politics have pushed me over the edge.

    on the other side despite everything you could say and against all logic, I've always found it hard to out and out hate McCain. The idea of him in the white house is easier to swallow than any of the others and at least its not Giuliani.


By Rowlfe on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 04:38 am:


By platypus on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 02:59 pm:

    I loathe Clinton and Obama, myself. And I like Kucinich, but he's totally unelectable, so there goes that idea. This primary cycle has me pretty depressed about the whole American political system, actually. They're all just political animals, blown around by the wind of popular opinion, constantly changing their stances to do what's politically convenient, so I have no idea about the real ethics behind the facade.


By Spider on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 03:16 pm:

    I like John Edwards, and I'm sorry he's not doing better in the race thus far.


By Antigone on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 04:31 pm:

    I'm leaning towards Obama, but his meteoric rise from nowhere makes me suspicious. Why would the GOP try to oppose him in his senate run with Alan Keyes, for example? (A last minute carpet bagger and completely unelectable candidate...)


By Rowlfe on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 06:11 pm:

    "Why would the GOP try to oppose him in his senate run with Alan
    Keyes, for example? "

    noone was going to stop him. he had the keynote, and its frigging
    Illinois. A teenager could beat Keyes in Illinois.


By Antigone on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 05:50 pm:

    My point exactly. Keyes was a straw candidate.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm going to support Obama, most likely. His meteoric rise just gives me pause.


By heather on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 06:18 pm:

    someone take his face off so we can see the clockworks

    hi!


By sarah on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 09:25 pm:



    Lewis Black for President.



    i'm going to write him in.






By sarah on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 09:26 pm:


    actually, i wish i had more time and more hands to write more on this topic.



    but yeah, that about sums it up.






By Nate on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 11:20 pm:

    Lewis Black would be a travesty.

    Speaking of travesties, dada for president. the first dada, breaking the dada ceiling, going where no dada man has gone dada before.


By semillama on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 12:40 pm:

    I've been undecided since the whole series of shenanigans began. I'm leaning Edwards now, since I think he has a good clear vision of what America is facing in the near term. He's the only candidate that so far seems to have any idea about what to do about New Orleans, for example.

    I don't envy the next president at all - they're inheriting a total wreck from the Bush administration. I don't think there's any question about that.


By beta on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 01:46 pm:


By Rowlfe on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 01:51 pm:

    I think much of my frustration comes from the fact, and it seems to only being noticed by the media now, that Hillary isnt really the 'first women president' candidate, she's a trojan horse for Bill Clinton's third term. I'm hoping people reject that simply out of principle


By heather on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 04:51 pm:

    i think that is simple, condescending, and bullshit


By platypus on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 05:51 pm:

    I like Edwards too, I hope he makes a comeback on Super Tuesday. I feel like this whole election is being treated as an inevitable contest between Obama and Clinton, and I don't like that. I don't like Obama because he has no substance. And I don't like Clinton because, well, I just don't like her. She's a hawk. I don't like that.

    You know what would make this discussion easier? Candy.


By sarah on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 07:23 pm:

    i wish Edwards was doing better, because i think he's the only truly electable democrat.

    i like Mitt Romney's idea, though, of doing away with income tax altogether, and just raising sales tax.


    oh god, would i love that.


    i think it was Romney, and not Huckabee... right?

    my brain, my brain, o long lost brain.


    you know, each election year that i've been a registered voter i keep thinking "it just can't get worse" and yet, unimaginably, it does.











By Rowlfe on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 07:37 pm:

    "i think that is simple, condescending, and bullshit"

    is it? where does her 35 years of experience come from? does
    that include campaigning for Goldwater? working for WalMart? is
    she counting being a first lady?

    I'm sorry, but she's running on bill's coattails, went to the mat
    on health care and never got up, meanwhile being bought and
    paid for and a friend of the healthcare industry, and all of a
    sudden shes speaking the same old language for the first time
    since then now that shes campaigning, is a pseudo hawk who
    has never apologized for her war vote...

    I really dont see the upside of her other than that maybe people
    want Bill back in the whitehouse behind the scenes, or because
    that shes enough of an attack dog that she can fight the
    republicans... she's a lousy candidate on the record, on
    experience, and on electability. and if McCain's the opponent,
    between the two of them she's the Clintons are the dirty
    politicians. "simple and condescending" to me would be the line
    of 'just because shes a woman' - i hope you're not reading
    between the lines to that, because thats not what i'm saying.
    Hillary Clinton simply isnt her own candidate.


By heather on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 08:46 pm:

    'just because shes a woman'

    is not something i would ever expect to hear from you.



    i still think your analogy does not fit with what you are saying. i also don't agree with everything you are saying, but i will probably never explain myself.

    i do appreciate you saying what you think.


By Rowlfe on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 09:00 pm:

    "i still think your analogy does not fit with what you are saying."

    all I can say is I've gotten too interested in everything lately, and as much as you can see rotten shit from all sides, in debating actual policy ups and downs, who's electable and who isnt, upsides/downsides of character, the Bill issue plays big time among most Hillary supporters.

    Its a tough dog to fight because his presence in the White House again makes Hillary seem a 'safe' choice, but simply out of principle, and especially seeing how much he's stuck his head in now that theres a challenger, I get a much much much more negative outlook on those two, and I think he drastically undermines and overshadows Hillary's chance to prove herself. With the exception of this past debate, for the most part she is more likeable and believable as a candidate on her own than she is on the trail. When she stumps to me she turns into everything the Republicans ever said she was.

    I get the impression she can galvanize Republican turnout in the fall better than any of their own candidates can, which not only loses the presidency, but hurts the house and the senate - and in my opinion keeps the country just as divided as it is now.

    Edwards and Obama, for all their apparent faults, aren't going to inspire Republican turnout that much above its current pathetic showing in the primaries. When it comes to their actual strategic changes, yes I think its POSSIBLE that the current bickerings hurt Barack among women, its POSSIBLE that theres a Bradley effect among voters... with Edwards I'm mostly concerned that he got his clock cleaned debating Cheney in 04 even when Cheney was blatantly lying and even I knew the proper comeback... however in neither case if you want to get down to the nitty gritty of who can win, who can make sure the senate and the house pull through, who can on personality alone be strong 4 years from now, they have the upside.

    on current policy, they're a lot closer on the issues than most people admit, and I dont think Barack is the agent of change that he says he is in that regard. But of the things he does promise, I think he and Edwards are more likely to get it done than Hillary, who time has proven to me isn't much of a team player. if she'd had actually cooperate back in the early 90s "Hillary care" might have been a success rather than a colossal failure that she's now mysteriously treating as a positive experience...


By Rowlfe on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 09:04 pm:

    (also on Edwards, if he were the candidate - he'd get killed not on smears, but the word MILLS would become a ridiculous caricature of him that would make him look foolish. I can see the SNL parodies now. a very minor point but he certainly does have his own silly repetitive talking points)


By Nate on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 11:23 pm:

    holy crap. rowlfe has made me unnecessary.


By Nate on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 11:25 pm:

    i wonder what they're doing over at ytmnd.


By Rowlfe on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 11:45 pm:

    they're making fun of Heath Ledgers death.

    I havent ytmnd'ed anything in a while. most of my favorite site
    creators got disillusioned with the site runner's terrible
    organization.


By Nate on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 11:55 pm:

    i don't think anyone should make fun of heath ledger's death.

    if hillary w. gobbels clinton becomes president i might move to canada. i am so sick of presidents in the pockets of corporate america.

    i ran out of pills three days ago. i finally got the next batch today. i don't know whether to laugh or cry.

    get it?


By Rowlfe on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 12:05 am:

    Even Maureen Dowd seems to be on board. Among a full Clinton
    bashing article:

    "Itís odd that the first woman with a shot at becoming president
    is so openly dependent on her husband to drag her over the
    finish line. She handed over South Carolina to him, knowing that
    her support here is largely derivative."

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/23/opinion/23dowd.html?
    _r=1&hp&oref=slogin

    even Ted Kennedy wants him to lay off. The scorched earth
    policy helps nobody but the Republicans.


By Rowlfe on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 12:07 am:

    as for Heath, I wasn't dramatically affected by his death - I've only
    seen a couple of his movies. That said, YTMND will pretty much
    sink to any depth and I've kind of gotten accustomed to seeing that
    sort of reaction. What they're doing with Heath is nothing
    compared to whenever a wrestler dies.

    As you may guess theres a lot of wrestling fans on the Internet. The
    same people who would otherwise make fun of Heath there today
    would go on massive rampages about tact.


By Antigone on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 02:12 am:

    Rowlfe: "Edwards and Obama, for all their apparent faults, aren't going to inspire Republican turnout that much above its current pathetic showing in the primaries."

    That's actually part of Obama's appeal for me. He has an odd Republican following, which I'm guessing stems more from some kind of back room deal with right wing power players than anything else. (Resulting in positive media/whisper coverage and only weak/ridiculous negative coverage.) That gives him a better chance in the general election than others, if only from a combination of right wing voter demoralization and a propensity to not vote against him. Right wing voters always need some(thing|one) to oppose to motivate them to turn out. Obama could be palatable enough for them to vote by not voting. Hillary would motivate them to show up and vote against her.


By Rowlfe on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 03:08 am:

    "Hillary would motivate them to show up and vote against her."

    ...and that doesnt just hurt her, it hurts ALL Dems in office, and it hurts any special ballot.

    ...and this is all without Bloomberg on the ballot.

    ...anyways, right now I'm finally watching the big Barack speech from this week:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf0x_TpDris

    ...and while I'm skeptical that its as mindblowing as its now hyped to be, it should be noted that in the 40 hours or so since it was posted its getting way more views than any of this other bickering shit. I have no idea what people really want to see regardless of what the media tells me we're looking for.

    If Barack were to win, the main thing I would not look forward to watching for 4-8 years isn't the supposed lack of experience (which I still dont get, by my math legislatively I don't see what makes Edwards or Clinton more qualified). Really I'm wary of how much he stutters when off his stump. It's kind of grating, I feel like I'm watching my dad.


By la on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 03:41 pm:

    as far as democratic candidates go, i'm definately into either edwards or obama.

    but i'm investigating other candidates as well, i'm not sure a democrat candidate really deserves my vote.

    i wish there was more information on electoral college reform.


By Spider on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 08:33 pm:

    Goddamnit, I just heard Edwards has pulled out of the race. I was going to vote for him on Tuesday.


By platypus on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 10:41 pm:

    I already voted for him on my absentee ballot. Grrrrr. This is why we need ranked choice voting!


By Rowlfe on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 02:21 am:

    I'd be shocked if Edwards endorsed Hillary.. he'd have to be a pretty major sellout for a pretty major position to look past all thats happened between them (much of which hasnt been major press, but is there, even a couple days ago the Clintons were running some pretty nasty robo-calls against him)


By semillama on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 02:30 pm:

    Yeah, I'm disappointed Edwards pulled out, but I was having some misgivings about him. I'm sort of glad he did, he'd be a good choice for Attorney General, I think.

    Speaking of Wrestling fans, Hulk Hogan has thrown his support behind Obama.

    This is now what I would love to see in a campaign commercial:

    "Whatcha gonna do....when BARACKOMANIA runs WILD over YOU???"


    (oh, and Sarah, it was Huckabee who wants to do away with the income tax and just have a 25% sales tax. He's also the guy who wants to bring the constitution in line with biblical values, so thank god he's not the republican front runner anymore)

    One thing I want to know: What the fuck was Guiliani thinking?


By wisper on Friday, February 1, 2008 - 05:11 am:

    9/11


By Antigone on Friday, February 1, 2008 - 01:06 pm:

    Obligatory genuine question: who is Trace supporting? Inquiring libtards want to know.


By Rowlfe on Friday, February 1, 2008 - 03:53 pm:

    I remember when he forgave bush everything because we were apparently going to Mars.

    I honestly have no idea where ol'spunky would sit right now.


By Dougie on Friday, February 1, 2008 - 06:11 pm:

    I would guess he likes Romney.


By kazu on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 03:12 pm:

    I think Spunky is a Ron Paul guy.


By Dr Pepper on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 09:57 pm:

    Semillama, I thought that guiliani was likely to suceeded a president, based on his experience as a attorney general and mayor of new york city...


By Nate on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 10:17 pm:

    i'm nearly a ron paul guy. i bet spunky is really disappointed that goul dropped.


By sarah on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 01:28 am:


    Guiliani reminds me of a mouse.




By semillama on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 03:07 pm:

    I was interested that Ron Paul was apparently anti-war, but when I looked more closely, I didn't like what I saw at all. My big problem with Ron Paul is what he allowed to go out in his newsletter back in the late 80s and 90s. There was some seriously bigoted material published under his name for an extended period of time, and his explanations for how that occurred are pretty weak.


By sarah on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 07:46 pm:


    oh, and Spunky? i heard a rumor he was campaigning for Hillary!





By platypus on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 08:50 pm:

    I thought that was Spunky calling from the Hillary campaign the other day!


By wisper on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 02:47 am:

    well we could check Spunky's blog, if anyone still has the link. I didn't want to read it because it made me sad, but someone else can check for me.


By droopy on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 01:37 pm:

    i have his blog bookmarked - http://spunkytexan.blogspot.com/ - and i've been checking it every so often for exciting election rants. but nothing has been forthcoming.


By Spider on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 07:20 pm:

    "I didn't want to read it because it made me sad"

    Wisper, I LOLed.

    Then I clicked on that link and I :~(ed.


By Rowlfe on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 08:02 pm:

    I read a bit and became sad... Oscar rants about the song about a pimp being awarded and celebrating homosexuality, presumably meaning Brokeback's 06 noms in particular...

    bah.


By jack on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 08:22 am:

    "99% of the content is not my own"


    hm. imagine.


    i had to google "vrwc"


By Dr Pepper on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 09:22 pm:

    jack, so tell me, is hillary clinton a founder of vrwc?


By Spider on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 09:25 pm:

    Veterans of Riots, Wars, and Conflict?

    Victims of Razor Wire Cuts?

    Valedictorians of the Royal Women's Circus?


By jack 3000 on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 10:39 pm:

    well, following that link led me to a blog with this headline:

    "Spunky Texan, proud VRWC member "

    we can safely eliminate spider's three creative guesses.



    dr pepper, that is a trick question! you are so clever! but you can't fool me! ha-ha-ha!


By Dr Pepper on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 11:17 pm:

    jack, fool you on what? I simple asked you a question....


By agatha on Thursday, February 7, 2008 - 12:16 pm:

    Trace sez: "I am not tyring to change anyone's mind, just share what's on mine."

    Don't you think he might have noticed that in his header after all this time?


By jack on Thursday, February 7, 2008 - 09:06 pm:

    no


By platypus on Thursday, February 7, 2008 - 09:08 pm:

    Wahoo, Romney's out!


By sarah on Wednesday, February 13, 2008 - 01:10 pm:


    yeah, but i bet he gets chosen as a vice presidential running mate.


    he knows he can't win the nomination, so it may even be his strategy at this point. pulling out before it gets too ugly to get a shot at vice president.



By Nate on Wednesday, February 13, 2008 - 02:22 pm:

    i wonder if huckabee wouldn't be a better choice.

    i have a feeling obama will pick edwards.


By semillama on Wednesday, February 13, 2008 - 02:46 pm:

    Huckabee would be a good political choice, but pretty awful for the country. Then again, I think any republican at this point would be pretty awful.

    I can see Obama picking Edwards, but I don't know if Edwards would accept. perhaps, but once bitten, twice shy?

    Dodd would make a pretty good veep, I think.


By platypus on Wednesday, February 13, 2008 - 06:29 pm:

    I think Edwards would be a good veep. It's what I'm rooting for. I'm also curious to see how the whole superdelegate situation works out. I feel like if Obama takes the popular vote and doesn't get the nomination, there's going to be hell to pay.


By Nate on Wednesday, February 13, 2008 - 11:37 pm:

    superdelegates tend to follow the pledged delegates.

    Obama is all but mathematically in.


By Rowlfe on Thursday, February 14, 2008 - 12:25 am:

    i think someone like Jim Webb is the more likely veep pick rather than Edwards.

    most talk I've seen has Edwards as an Attorney General.


By semillama on Thursday, February 14, 2008 - 01:52 pm:

    He'd make a good attorney general.


By wisper on Thursday, February 14, 2008 - 02:36 pm:

    MILL WORKERS


By Nate on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 12:51 pm:

    nothing like cutting dovetails into the men on the chain gang.


By semillama on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 12:56 pm:

    well, if you want a snug fit that's attractive to look at...


By Rowlfe on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 12:40 pm:

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8667.html

    I'd like to spit in her fucking face right now. She's resorted to "muslim email" level fear mongering tactics. what a sorry excuse for a human being. right now I'd trade the rest of my own votes for the rest of my life for one Texas or Ohio vote.


By Nate on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 01:48 pm:

    well, you know, i heard that Hillary keeps her hair short because long hair requires a true lady to wrap a towel around her head after getting out of the shower.

    but wait, you might say, she started keeping her hair short long before the whole islam terror thing blew up.

    to which, i reply, now you are beginning to see my point. i am not going to go so far as to say that Hillary is a high ranking, america hating operative in the al qaeda organization, but with evidence such as this it is hard to even begin to imagine thinking otherwise. why else would she start taking steps to distance her public self from the fierce islamo-fascist lifestyle and all its trappings? can you draw any other conclusion than her hatred for america has led her to join forces with severe underground terror movements?


By heather on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 02:04 pm:

    my opinion of her was not actually all that high when i made my original comment

    over the past few weeks it has dropped considerably


By platypus on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 02:28 pm:

    Yeah, I have been monumentally underimpressed by the Hillary campaign, and my opinion of her is sinking fast, not that it was favourable to begin with. This whole election makes me want to urinate copiously on the Capitol and then flee to Canada.


By droopy on Tuesday, February 26, 2008 - 12:27 am:

    the texas primary/caucus is fast approaching. i think both obama and clinton will be in fort worth in the next week or so. not that i give a shit, i've already done my early voting.

    if i was really moved enough to flee to canada as a political protest, i'd have done it years ago. but if i did, i'd like to go to halifax, the home of ellen page and porn legend peter north. seems like people i could relate to.


By Rowlfe on Tuesday, February 26, 2008 - 02:33 am:

    I'll trade you Ellen Page and Sloan for Willie Nelson...

    I can't stand Ellen Page's acting style...


By Rowlfe on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 12:00 pm:


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