Why Mrs Haversham, you're beautiful!

sorabji.com: Sex: Why Mrs Haversham, you're beautiful!

By Bagpuss on Monday, January 18, 1999 - 07:06 pm:

    So right, I've just been round one of my best friends house and she's had a new haircut. So far so good.

    The problem is she looks STUNNING. Really double-take, thank you God, gorgeous.

    She looks good normally, but I don't think of her in that way. We really are just friends. (Stop guffawing at the back).

    Does anyone have any suggestions how to overcome this ENORMOUS urge I have to kiss her newly exposed neck?

    I want to go back to being friends. But my hormones are already clammering for action.


By Blindswine on Monday, January 18, 1999 - 07:18 pm:

    try huffing mace before you meet her.

    the mind-boggling sinus pain you'll experience should free you from any amorous thoughts that would otherwise be a distraction.

By TheGoddess on Monday, January 18, 1999 - 08:50 pm:

    Tell her u think she looks incredibly hot n if you weren't friends u would definately wanna try something... Sometimes it helps to tell someone what's goin on in your head.... then put it past ya...

By Ace on Monday, January 18, 1999 - 10:44 pm:

    tell her how wonderful she looks and is, THEN kiss her neck, dammit

By Sheila on Monday, January 18, 1999 - 10:58 pm:

    then ask her where she got her haircut and please post the address

By Swine on Monday, January 18, 1999 - 11:34 pm:

    stick with the mace.

    as unlikely as it sounds, chances are you'll save yourself a lot of pain and discomfort.

    trust me.

By R.C. on Monday, January 18, 1999 - 11:46 pm:

    I'm with Ace. So Bag,/next time you're standing next to her/just tell her again how great she looks w/her new 'do/then plant one on her. Guarantee she won't slap you -- you're her bud. Such occasional lapses of decorum on the part of male friends are permissiable when a woman has undertaken a stunning new look.

    (She might even kiss you back!).

    I'll bet the other men in her life barely noticed she had new hair. Believe me/an appreciatory buss is certainly not out of line. (But be sure you get the phone# for her hairdresser!)

    *sigh* What I wdn't pay for a new 'do that wd make men besides themselves w/the desire to kiss me...

By Agatha on Tuesday, January 19, 1999 - 01:36 am:

    my hair is so ugly these days, it makes me want to cry. i'm trying to "grow it out", a type of torture invented by a society that forces women to believe that long, shiny tresses are the answer to all of life's problems. i'm thinking of going back to the quarter inch all over haircut that i have found so comforting in the past, but dave begs me not to cut it that way every time i get weak.

By R.C. on Tuesday, January 19, 1999 - 02:04 am:

    But Aggie -- there's a million great cuts out there now for "in-between" length hair. Just turn on yr t.v.! If it's at least to the top of yr collar/I'm sure you can find a stylist who'll come up w/a new look that you'll like. Since you & Dave are sick of the Pixie cut.

    (I've always like that gamine, I'm-so-fabulous-I- -don't-need-hair cut. But you've gotta have perrrrfectly balanced features -- & a nice long neck -- to pull off hair that short. Not to mention a substantial collection of really great earrings.)

    Go splurge on a cut (& color!) at one of those upscale salons. I hate those places -- but for women/you really do get what you pay for when it comes to a great haircut. (Which is why I keep mine all one length & keep those ducats for other things!)

By Whet on Tuesday, January 19, 1999 - 07:26 am:

    I got to go with TheGoddess. With real feelings (not talking about a momentary loss of blood pressure due to redirected flow) its damned if you do and damned if you don't, but if you are honest and express yourself, that usually makes *you* feel better in the long run whether it works out good or bad - because that way you were at least real. Sometimes a friend is so wonderful it makes you cry just thinking about them. BUT you can't have them. Thats just life in certain situations. You can't help being attracted, especially if you love them, so be honest, tell them how hot you think they are, if she smacks you probably won't be hard cause you're buds, then take a deep breath, try to clear your mind, and be proud of them. DAMN, she's my friend, and she looks FAB! If you're both available and never say anything about it you will never know what potential is there. Some women like compliments, others don't. So do it for yourself - if its really affecting you say something, then move on.

By Bagpuss on Tuesday, January 19, 1999 - 10:55 am:


    The 'go for it' scenario is not one I'd like to try. Besides being pretty sure it wouldn't go anywhere, I am her best friend and she really could do without *that* complication right now.

    Mace is illegal in the UK. Yep, that's right kids. Over *there* you can buy disposable shotguns, over *here* it's an offence to carry anything bigger than a pen-knife.

    What am I going to do?

    I suppose a regime of vigourous masturbation and cold showers is the only answer. (well, an increased regime anyway)

    Unless anyone else has any suggestions?????


By Swine on Tuesday, January 19, 1999 - 11:16 am:

    snort lines of paprika.

By Xena on Tuesday, January 19, 1999 - 11:21 am:

    Mmmm. Baggy dear. I think you should smootch her. This is so the problem with Modern Love. The ones you should be with ie: your best friend who looks fabulous and leads to much masturbation is the idea that seems too problematic. Boys n' Girls, always problems. At least tell her she looks fab. I mean people don't get haircuts so that they look lame.

By Bagpuss on Tuesday, January 19, 1999 - 11:36 am:

    I did tell her she looks great. She is a friend after all.

    Aw, man all this 'go for it' stuff is changing my mind. Stop it. I need help as to deal with *not* kissing her.

    She's coming round tonight. Uh-oh.

By Agatha on Tuesday, January 19, 1999 - 11:47 am:

    if you don't want to go for it, don't listen to all of these people. do what you feel is best. it is possible to separate a physical attraction from an emotional connection. i suggest that you keep her as your best friend, until your intuition tells you otherwise. in nine times out of ten, the friend lasts longer than the lover. keep in mind, none of us are there with you, so we couldn't possibly give you accurate advice unless we actually knew you and the ravishing chick a little better. good luck.

By Bagpuss on Tuesday, January 19, 1999 - 12:06 pm:

    Agatha, once again injects clarity into our lives.

    I know you're right. Besides, to tell her how *I* feel regardless of how she feels is a bit selfish. Well, more than a bit.

    I'll see if I can cope tonight. I'll try.

    But she looks soooooo goooooood


By Zoe on Tuesday, January 19, 1999 - 12:12 pm:

    Has anyone had a close friend proclaim undying love for them?

By Agatha on Tuesday, January 19, 1999 - 12:16 pm:


By Everyone on Tuesday, January 19, 1999 - 12:23 pm:


By Sheila on Tuesday, January 19, 1999 - 01:28 pm:

    i am starting to wonder how bad she looked pre-haircut, that there would be such a change. is it she who is different suddenly?

    do you imagine she is oblivious to the fact that you are horny in her presence? i'm certain the vibes are emanating like mad from what you have said here.

    maybe her hair covered her eyes before. perhaps yours were covered too.

    will she *accidentally* read this stuff? if you could arrange that, you could make it a hypothetical question concerning an anonymous stranger. you know, like, doctor, i have a friend who thinks he might have . . . . . . . .

    it sounds as if you see her every day, is that so?

By Markus on Tuesday, January 19, 1999 - 01:38 pm:

    BP -

    Your instincts are dead on. You just want someone to confirm them, because what feels right isn't what feels good, and it would suck if you were mistaken and gave her up for nothing. So I'll do just that. The Swine is correct; telling her will only weird her out. The friendship will never be the same; she'll always be eyeing everything you do with suspicion towards the motives.

    Snort the paprika, wank in the cold shower, and file this under "Can men and women ever be friends?"

    Incidentally, I think that's the source of my long hair fixation: when a women finally pulls it up on her head, it reveals that long-concealed highly kissable place right on the back of the neck.

By Swine on Tuesday, January 19, 1999 - 06:07 pm:

    no doubt.

    i always wonder why that place always smells so good...

    but anyway, huffing mace and snorting paprika aside, some of the worst mistakes i've made involved overstepping friendship bounds with female friends and taking the relationship into the sexual realm.

    not that my experiences will neccesarily be anything like yours, but i've placed that little kiss on the neck a few times before and the results were always bad to disastrous.

    "bad" was getting laughed at and having a once trusting friend consider me a sex-starved dog with all the scruples of a raging erection.

    "disastrous" were the times it ended in me getting laid and having a once trusting friend eventually consider me a treacherous sex-starved dog with all the scruples of a raging erection.

    it's pretty much a no win situation.
    even when you think you're winning, you end up losing in the end.

    looking back i wish i had that can of mace to inhale instead of deciding to be "honest" about my "feelings".


    straight, no chaser.

By R.C. on Tuesday, January 19, 1999 - 06:34 pm:

    Yes -- my ace boon-coon homie from across the street declared his undying love for me the summer I came home after my Frosh year of college. This was the person who was w/me when I got my 1st period in the middle of a backyard baseball game (I was playing shortstop) at age12. He talked me out of running away from home becuz I was so mortified (the whole neighborhood saw my little 'accident!) Dropped the bomb on me complete w/ 4 gorgeously tortured, written-but-unsent letters. (I wrote to him a few times that 1st year/but he never wrote back. And we always missed each other when one of us wd call.)

    In retrospect/I shd've scooped him up right then & there/dragged him back to Boston w/me & turned him loose on the Beantown club scene. (He was a d.j. & wanna-be rapper at the time.) It probably wd've saved him from the last 20 yrs. of
    mediocrity w/the boring chick he ended up with.
    (They've been living together for 15 years but never married. At least they didn't have kids.)

    But as for the particulars: We made a date to get together & finally do the thing everyone had been accussing us of doing for years a few days later. Spent the nite on a futon in his basement while our respective Parental Units were away for the weekend. The sex was FABULOUS & the talk afterwards left me in tears. Then we got high/drunk some more & went to the beach to watch the sunrise. Seems he'd kept his feelings from me for so long becuz he knew I was "destined to get outta this half-assed place that won't let you be nothing if you stay here" & do grand things w/my life.

    Well/I got an expensive education/spent a few years as a Buppie corporate princess/traveled a bit/did a lot of coke & partied at a lot of clubs back in the 80's. Now I'm just an over-educated slacker/unproduced screenwriter w/a cat, a condo & a computer. If I'd have said "The hell w/yr girlfriend -- you say you don't love her/so pack yr shit & come back to school w/me!" who knows where fate wd've taken us?

    We remained tight afterwards/but it's been years since I've spoken to him (he & his girl never seem to have a phone). But I know if I knocked on his door tomorrow & said 'Let's go -- we're hanging out. You can bring _____ or leave her here -- don't matter to me" he'd be up & dressed in a minute. But I tried to be 'good' & not 'interfere' w/his relationship at the time. So much for ingetrity.

    I've only met one other man in all my life who totally 'got' me the way he did. So R.C. says
    "Best friends make the best lovers -- becuz they remember the days & the times & all the stupid shit you did & how awful you looked w/braces -- but they love just the same. If what you feel is real (& not just a case of the I-ain't-been-gettin'- anys/it's worth risking the embarassment of confessing those feelings/rather than spending forever wondering what if..."

By Blindswine on Tuesday, January 19, 1999 - 06:38 pm:

    damn... you really are a hopeless romantic.

By Crawford on Tuesday, January 19, 1999 - 08:36 pm:

    that happened to me once. the friend-getting-a-haircut thing.
    shoot, it was three months ago.

By Bagpuss on Tuesday, January 19, 1999 - 08:41 pm:

    I figured it out.....here's what you do to get over the feeling horny in a friend's presence.

    First of all you get her to come over to your house in tears at all the heinous shit that is going on in her life.

    Then you both go out to the pub as she gets more depressed and fills with self-loathing. You take her home and watch her cry herself to sleep in your arms. You leave her dreaming with a look of such complete sadness on her face that your heart breaks there and then.

    You go home switch on your computer and write about it at an oasis of sanity that is sorabji dot com.

    You go to bed with a slight tinge of regret that you didn't get what your body wanted. And sleep with relief because you didn't fuck over a friend who you love.

    Here endeth my lesson.

By Bagpuss on Tuesday, January 19, 1999 - 08:43 pm:

    You still want to know what happened to Agatha though.

By R.C. on Wednesday, January 20, 1999 - 12:42 am:

    Truly. Just go get a chi-chi haircut/Aggie. God knows/you deserve to splurge a little!

    And Thank You/'SwineMeister/for dissin' me on ther Sorabji boards. So I admit that my homie & I always seemed to bring out the best in each other. Becuz we believed in each other/in spite of all the opposing forces in our lives. He wd read my writing & critique it/& I wd critique his rap compositions/& show him where the form & structure needed work. He was the 1st person I ever knew who dealt w/industrial music (circa 1977)/before I'd ever heard the term. (He called it 'street sounds'.) We wd cut school & go into the city & just hang w/a second-hand Scully he'd bought from a cokehead for $50 bucks/& record the basic soundtrack of NYC life. Taxi horns & car brakes & police sirens & conversations from payphones & jackhammers & bodegas & Puerto Rican mami's screamin' at their wayward men & import stores in the Village blasting their newest fare on Christopher St. And we'd come home hyped & feelin' more alive than we'd ever felt in sterile-ass suburbia/in spite of the ass-whippin' we were each gonna get (And we never ratted each other out. I ratted out my own brother for less/but never my homeboy.) And we'd crash at some misc. person's crib & I'd watch him splice magic out of the Sturm und Drang of everyday city life. (Not mixing on a board -- but splicing tape/old-school style.) And then he'd rap over it -- syncopated rapzillious rhymes. The years of tutelage in Gershwin & Billy Strayhorn by our parents had paid off for him in a new genre. But it was poetry lost in the ether. Becuz he was just that BAD & just that authentic & never wrote anything down. And he was just that much in need of the right kind of woman to help him breath life into his dreams/insteada some "Go work for UPS/ you'll get good benefits & a pension plan" type chick. Buty I was too busy being cautiously middle-class to realize that. Puff Daddy & half the muthafuckers out there today think they're 'artisists'. But I think my homie had what it takes to make the grade. He just never got his shot at the title. For various reasons.

    And I am a Hope-FUL romantic/if anything. But I've long since given up on any haps btwn me & my homeboy. Some men always hold a place in yr heart. But if you're lucky/one man IS yr heart. But still -- I'm a grown-up now/& if if I wd break up a 20-yr relationship for a bunch of 'what-ifs'/I deserve to be drawn & quartered. And 'hopeless' or not/I'm better than that.

By NZAngel on Wednesday, January 20, 1999 - 01:24 am:

    The mutual friend who introduced my hubby to me later fell head over heels in love with me.

    It was pretty awkward, because I was in love with the man who is my one true love, but I really liked our friend as a friend, and didn't want his feelings to get in the way of that. Also, at the same time that he started telling me how he felt, my love and I were having a break from each other (mostly because we were pretty young and needed to figure if we wanted to get so serious at that time). So one night when my friend came over to comfort me when I was feeling bad and that we might not get back together, we kissed. That was all, and I made him leave.

    But for months afterward, when I was back with my true love and we had sorted out our issues with each other, I would see my friend at university. Every time we had lunch, or a class together, he would tell me how much he loved me, and that if I wasn't with my love he wanted to go out with me.

    It was the most difficult situation to deal with, because I liked him as a friend, and didn't want to lose that, but I didn't love him back in the same way. It took him about six months of at first gentle reminders that I loved his friend, and then straight out telling him that we could never be more than friends before he stopped declaring his love for me.

By Agatha on Wednesday, January 20, 1999 - 01:49 am:

    what happened? first time, nothing.
    i wasn't attracted to the guy the first time it happened.

    second time, different guy. i let him slide into my life, and it was a mistake. we had been friends for a long time, he used to sleep over platonically, we hung out nonstop. i started having sexual dreams about him. i found the dreams very disturbing. they were plaguing me, i was unable to look at him the same way after that. he finally professed his love for me, we went out for about six months, had an extremely rocky relationship full of youthful drama, and i finally broke up with him because he was completely emotionally impaired. two weeks later, he was going out with my best friend. i flipped out for a while, it was very unpleasant. they stayed together for about a year or so, and then broke up. now we are all friends again, the way it should be. we take turns picking on him when he complains about his girlfriend troubles, because they are all his fault. things are okay now with that one.

    the last one was my best male friend in high school. he professed his love to me indirectly by letting me read several poems he had written about me. i was touched, but at this point in time he was already married to the first woman he ever slept with, and i was a mom and with somebody else. i was the best man at his wedding, i wore a pretty black dress. every time i go home for a visit and make plans with him, his wife insists on coming with us. she is extremely jealous of our friendship, but i like her just fine. i think they make a good match.

    one other friend recently wrote to me after eight years and professed his love for me in the letter. we were really good friends in college. we were always in about two or three classes together. i considered a friend only. i would never have been attracted to him in any other way. he wrote to me about six months ago, and i moved two or three weeks later and can't find the letter anywhere. i don't know his address, but i know he lives in brooklyn somewhere now. i feel terrible that i have never gotten to write him back. it took some balls to write that letter after eight years. someday, i am going to find his address somehow and write him back.

    that's all. hope that wasn't too boring, but y'all asked twice.

By Xena on Thursday, January 21, 1999 - 04:21 pm:

    No friend of mine has ever confessed their love for me. This bums me out. Still there are many I have loved more than platonically but I have been too scared to do anything and the times I did it ended in disaster. What an evil fate.

By Whet on Saturday, January 23, 1999 - 08:15 pm:

    BP I think you acted like a true friend.

    I also think women have sex with 2 categories of men (though its all pure speculation since I've never had sex with a friend). There are some complex equations going on in the background, but still boils down to 2 categories:
    1) Those they think are hot.
    2) Those they marry/soul mate.

    'friend' is not in there anywhere.

    Women make *wonderful* friends. But anything involving sex outside of those two categories is just so damn complicated its not worth the effort. Perhaps the ideal situation would be to have close women friends, and male buddies to go fishing with then shag in the back of the bass boat. Go home, take a shower/change, then take yer best female friend out on the town for a night of dancing and conversation.

    btw, if you ever find a woman that you can be friends with AND be totally honest with, talk about your feelings, emotional/sexual/whatever, then joke about it later when you've worked it out - hang on to her. She's one in a million.

    (insert fine print on tv shows where the broadcaster doesn't want to be sued by someone offended by program content ;)

By A woman on Monday, January 25, 1999 - 04:02 pm:

    Funny how the risk of pregnancy, disease and physical abuse will ruin someones yearning for meaningless no strings copulation. Men seem to miss this somehow. Also they seem to miss the thing where they have sex w/ the woman and get really hung up on her and then you have to feel bad when you tell them to piss off. Luckily if they then stalk you you don't have to feel quite as bad.

By R.C. on Monday, January 25, 1999 - 04:59 pm:

    I shoot stalkers on site. But I've never been involved w/one of those obsessive-stalker types.

    Then again/I only have sex w/'friends'. If I don't like the guy enuf to just hang out/talk/do silly stuff/watch videos/etc/& if I haven't known him long enuf to have done most of the aformentioned w/him/then he ain't gettin' btwn my sheets!

By Whet on Monday, January 25, 1999 - 11:26 pm:

    I should clarify.
    I met a girl, had sex on the first date (first time) and in a few weeks was engaged then later married.
    Not necessairly my idea either.
    Learned was a mistake. Few more years to wake up. Few more years trying to make it work, get better, councelling/etc. Finally decided to move on for self preservation, been trying to leave for about a year n half now but no cooperation so finally have to sue/go to court to end it. So not yer typical love em/abuse em/leave em kind of guy. Thought I had the storybook real deal, been faithful/etc. In my mind it was. I wanted it to be, made myself believe, but was a fool. At least now I can admit it. Hope I'm not too old to start over and learn who women really are.

By R.C. on Monday, January 25, 1999 - 11:45 pm:

    You're never too old, Whet.

    If you know you gave it yr best effort/don't sweat it. Just try to keep yr dignity intact/divvy things up fairly/& move on.

    At least you didn't brings kids into that mess...

By Bagpuss on Tuesday, January 26, 1999 - 11:03 am:


    Thanks for that. I know I made the right decision and I'm back to seeing her as a friend now.

    As for being too old to figure out who women really are, I personally think unless the male species can live to a few thousand yrs old then we're all too young to try.

    I *know* this is a cliche and it's a bit too close to "women eh? Can't live with them" type sentiments, but speaking from a bloke perspective women have it so much easier to figure men out.

    We're dumb basically.

    I think there should be a truth or consequences type board where the men and women of sorabji can tell the opposite sex what's *really* going through their mind in a given situation. How about it folks? You know you want to.

By Markus on Tuesday, January 26, 1999 - 11:16 am:

    What's to tell? As you noted, men are embarassingly simple. As for the other perspective, we're not likely to make it to a thousand.

    But the attempt would be ugly. It would be a truth and consequences situation. Besides, isn't that at least the underlying theme on half of these topic boards already?

By Whet on Tuesday, January 26, 1999 - 09:16 pm:

    I still kinda like women though.

By Markus on Wednesday, January 27, 1999 - 01:34 pm:

    Well, yeah.

By KAT on Wednesday, January 27, 1999 - 03:10 pm:

    I was in a relationship that had been going on for 10 months, we brook up prior to that for 4 months, and were together for 4 months before that. Things were wrong from my side. See, he was Mormon(Later Day Saints), and I was not. He wanted to get Married and I needed to become Mormon to do that. After many class from his bishop I still would not join. And one night I told him I would never join. Shortly after that he told me he would leave the Mormon Church for me. YIKES!!!! Thats when I knew we would have BIG PROBLEMS.

    At the same time I ment this guy at the ski resort where I worked (the guy worked there to) who was wonderful. One night while on a ski break I twisted my ankle and had to dragged back to the lodge by snowmobile. Not being able to drive this wonderful guy JOEL, offered to drive my car and me down the Mtn. This was the first time we got to talk all alone. My boyfriend was meeting us at the bottom of the hill and I whished that he wasn't. When we got there my boyfriend carried me to his van and we gave Joel a ride to his friends house. My boyfriend had to get out to open the door for Joel, when he did I turned arround to thank Joel and shake his hand. When he let go of my hand and got out of the van I felt like I was lossing the most important and wonderful person in my life (and we had only spent about an hour together). My boyfriend was very jealos just 'cuz another guy drove me down the mtn. Over the next week Joel and I started hanging out and getting to know each other. And my relationship with my boyfriend kept getting worse. I finally told him I needed my space and I wanted to put things on hold. I still loved him, but knew that our relationship would go no wear.

    Joel and I became great friends and we felt a connection with one another. I didn't want to ruin our friendship with a relationship.

    What do you thing I should have done?

    Then I'll tell you what I did, and how it turned out.

By Joe Smith on Wednesday, January 27, 1999 - 04:48 pm:

    You converted to Mormonism, but a matriarchal polygamist sect, so you could have multiple male relationships of various aspects simultaneously.

By Markus on Wednesday, January 27, 1999 - 04:59 pm:

    By this time in the narrative, you should already have broken up with your boyfriend if you knew it was going nowhere, instead of giving him the decrepit cliche about needing space.

    And maybe he wasn't jealous "just because another guy drove you down the mountain", but rather because he saw you mooning at someone you considered the most important and wonderful person in your life while you clung to his hand.

By A thoughtful Semillama on Wednesday, January 27, 1999 - 06:04 pm:

    Here's something to mull over:

    I read a lot of stuff in this really awesome discussion that made me think, but one thing that disappointed me.

    That's the underlying assumption that all men are somehow less complex or intelligent or wise('simple' is the term used,I believe) than all women. Overtly humorous and assuaging to male guilt over the huge bucket of crap that's been dumped on half the species for millenia, but inherently bad logic. Here's why.

    None of us will ever meet more than a tiny fraction of all the members of the opposite sex in the world, not even a fraction of members who speak the same language! Therefore, how can we judge the entire "other half" when we really can only judge the few we've actually met? It would be much better to say "SOME men are simple" or "The men I've met are simple" rather than the all-inclusive "(ALL) men are simple." This clears up a lot of confusion and leads to a better clarity of thought if you do the logical extention and phase out all generalities in your life. If Hitler had thought, "Some of the Jews I have met have been right bastards" instead of "All Jews are right bastards," would there still have been a holocaust?

    We need to judge each other as individuals, not as walking sets of genitalia.

    Otherwise, I am VERY impressed by the wit, intelligence and most importantly compassion people here show to folks they may have never ever met.

By Jon on Wednesday, January 27, 1999 - 06:18 pm:


    This adds nothing to the romance/soap opera string above, but you have an interest in E-Prime don't you?

By R.C. on Wednesday, January 27, 1999 - 06:47 pm:

    What's E-Prime? (Jeez -- I m SO out of the loop!)

    And Sem -- we can't but help but generalize/
    mainly becuz we only have our own experiences w/the opp. sex to draw on/or those of other people we know. But after a while/you do pick up on certain patterns of behavior within the sexes.

    Like strip clubs -- men go there/usually alone/to spend $$ staring at nearly-naked women whose breasts are usually fake/knowing full well that 95% of those women will NEVER end up in bed w/them. (Some of those chicks aren't even good-looking!) Becuz most of them don't trick on the side/they just dance for the $$. Yet men are willing to SPEND BIG $$ to sit there slack-jawed for hours/sucking down over-priced drinks/just to get aroused by watching women they can never have? It's totally idiotic! They'd do better to just rent a classy, attractive call girl for the evening /& actually go home satisfied afterwards.

    But when women go to watch male dancers/we make a party out of it! We laugh & dance w/the guys/goad our girlfriends into stuffing $$ into some guy's g-string -- it's big fun. And if we go home horny/that's just a bonus. The whole point of going wasn't just to get aroused -- it was to laugh & drink & dance & have fun w/our girls & some good-looking men. Sure/some of us might hope to drag one of them home at the end of the nite. But women watching male strippers don't sit there all deadly serious/concentrating on every inch of flesh/the way guys do. For us/it's a goof -- something fun to do w/the girls once in a while. And I've never known a woman to go to a male strip club alone -- we always bring at least one friend to giggle with.

    Sure, it's a cliche -- men are more easily aroused visually/women are more aroused verbally. But aren't all cliches untimately rooted in the truth?

By Bagpuss on Wednesday, January 27, 1999 - 07:25 pm:

    nah it's true. ALL men are bastards.

By Cyst on Wednesday, January 27, 1999 - 07:50 pm:

    male-female het friendship without sexual undertones is dull. or maybe it's just depressing. I want all my male friends to want to sleep with me. it's flattering.

By Bagpuss on Wednesday, January 27, 1999 - 08:08 pm:

    they do, trust me.

By Markus on Thursday, January 28, 1999 - 10:27 am:

    Holy shit, we've got a chance with 5% of strippers?

By Semillama on Thursday, January 28, 1999 - 03:12 pm:

    R.C. just proved my point. She could have said "Some men.." and "Some women..." but instead did generalize, using the excellent (and most well-suited to this thread) example of the strip club. You would think that R.C. has special knowledge that the rest of us don't have, knowing the motive of every single person of whatever gender that goes to strip clubs. Hey, I'll admit i have gone with friends (never alone) for the purpose of looking at live nude girls, but also to enjoy camaraderie with my pals who seem to get off on the show more than me. ( it's also neat to talk to strippers who are tripping, but that's another story...)

    So, before I get too far away from my point, cliches (thanks for reminding me of the word) are not based in THE TRUTH, but in some people's experience of some part of whatever THE TRUTH is.

    (E-prime, btw, is far too much for me to go into here, check out http://www.rawilson.com for more info)

By XENA on Thursday, January 28, 1999 - 06:23 pm:

    Bagpuss - I love the idea of the given situation and seeing how men and women see it. Fire away. I know that I have been having some big insights in this fashion lately.

    KAT: sounds like you're avoiding intimacy or him if a guy says he's willing to give up his religion to be with you if you won't do it be with him (um, to a Mormon this would mean he was willing to sacrifice his place in heaven to be with you). I too would be pissed if you decided that some guy you just met was so important but not the guy you were engaged to. I don't know what you did but I hope you were honest with the Mormon and spilt with him and that you waited for the infatuation to pass before you made plans to marry the next guy in line.

    Semillama: Sugar there are two types of men on this planet, the ones who KNOW women are more complex and often smarter than them and those who really want to believe that they are the smart ones. The latter aren't for me. Too many problems. I'm sorry but enuf with the PC stuff, stereotypes come from a place based in but not limited to reality. I am a woman and fit plenty of the stereotypes. So do the men I know whether they are great or losers. Big whoop. I'm with R.C. on this one, like usual. Boys and girls, they just ain't wired the same and that's the truth.

By Swine on Thursday, January 28, 1999 - 07:10 pm:

    i view women who believe they are smarter than men with pretty much the same disregard that i have for men who believe they're smarter than women.

    "two types of men on this planet"?


    cease and desist.

By Markus on Thursday, January 28, 1999 - 07:18 pm:

    Besides, being "more complex" isn't necessarily something to boast about. Ted Bundy was more complex than I am, and look what it did for him.

By KAT on Thursday, January 28, 1999 - 07:27 pm:

    You guys are wonderful.

    Well my point about the episod in my life is that when it fells right it must be right.

    I brook it off with the Mormon because of respect for him and his parents who I think truely believe in thier religion.

    I decided to start a relationship with Joel and it has been like nothing I've ever experienced before in my life. We've been together now for a year (1-31). We plan to get married one day and are the best of friend and the best of lovers. We fell that we where ment to be together.....FAIT....Soulmates. I can only relate the intensity of my fellings for him to those that I have for my mother. Our bond is that strong to me.

    I wanted to share this so that those who are faced with relationships with people who are their friends, think with their hearts as well as their minds. The time might not be right now, but if it's ment to be. IT WILL HAPPEN!

    I don't think that men are stupid, but they are diffenatly simple. I don't know any men that can change their outfit 25 times in the course of getting ready to go out, and then have a lenghty battle with their hair over who has control. Only to realize that they have a run in their last pair of black pantyhose.

By XENA on Friday, January 29, 1999 - 03:34 pm:

    What Kat said.

    Men aren't stupid, I know lots of very smart ones, but there is a totally different way things are lined up in their minds. Simple, clean, easy, and consequently difficult for women to imagine.

By KAT on Friday, January 29, 1999 - 06:15 pm:

    Hell, I'd like to be able to piss where ever I wanted with out having to squat, or look for a safe looking leaf.

By Blindswine on Friday, January 29, 1999 - 06:37 pm:

By R.C. on Saturday, January 30, 1999 - 04:36 pm:

    Look, I really didn't think it was necessary for me to bracket ever sentence with 'some men' or 'some women'. I assumed we're all smart enuf to know that no rule or observation applies to everyone/& that I wasn't saying *everyone* goes to strip clubs.

    I've known some incredibly intelligent men in my lifetime. But even some of them were willing to make fools of themselves/risk destroying their families/& generally make a mess of their lives over a silly chick w/a nice pr. of tits.

    Consequently/the women I know who have
    cheated on their husbands or boyfriends were ALWAYS careful to be very discreet. Until they were ready to pack their shit & move in w/the guy/their S.O. never knew what was happening. The only one I recall who flaunted her affair was married to a man who refused to give her a divorce. For 2 years/after she'd said "Let's call it quits." Until one day/he found the other guy's shoes in the bedrm. closet/& finally decided to pack his shit/sign the papers & get on w/his life.

    So/which gender seems smarter to you?

    Maybe we're not defining the term 'smarter' correctly. I say that when it comes to matters of the heart &/or realtionships/SOME women are a lot more discreet abt cheating. (Altho' we can gladly play the fool for all to see when we're head-over- heels in love w/a guy & there's no S.O. to worry abt offending.) But maybe that just makes us more devious/rather than smarter. Unless you agree that smart = having the know-how to get what you want w/out ruining what you already have/if you're willing to cheat in the 1st place.

    SOME men seem to lose all capacity for rational thought & understanding of the consequences that will follow when they decide to empty the checking acct. throwing $$ at strippers/or run up the Visa bill trysting w/some bimbo. They KNOW their S.O. is gonna find out once the checks start bouncing/or the bill comes in the mail. But they do it anyway/becuz they're thinking w/their gonads instead of their gray matter.

    Which is just plain dumb/IMO.

By Swine on Saturday, January 30, 1999 - 06:57 pm:

    more clay feet.

By Semillama on Thursday, February 4, 1999 - 03:12 pm:

By R.C. on Thursday, February 4, 1999 - 10:43 pm:

    Thank you, Sem!

    But Plueeze. Who has time for that shit? As if nitpicking abt language will change the the nature of a person.

    "President Clinton is a lying, cheating hoe
    w/poor taste in paramours."


    "President Clinton behaves as a lying, cheating hoe w/poor taste in paramours under certain conditions"

    (And I voted for the guy -- twice. Even tho' I knew he was a horny toad once Gennifer Flowers had her 15 min.)

    That E-Prime guy must be a lawyer...

By Semillama on Thursday, February 4, 1999 - 11:01 pm:

    Naw, a scientist. And besides, which statement is more accurate anyway? He doesn't seem to act as a lyin', cheatin' hoe when he's eating a Big Mac. I think that's honesty. <shit eatin' grin>


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