Those little details that the person you're seeing conveniently fails to mention. Weeds: Those little details that the person you're seeing conveniently fails to mention.

By Lucy Phurre on Saturday, May 1, 1999 - 04:07 pm:

    So I pick up this guy, right. We're sorta seeing each other, but he's not putting out.
    He keeps talking about how he's just not that kinda guy.
    Then I finally ask him something close enough to the right question to get a hint out of him that something is amiss.
    Turns out he's fucking some other girl.
    He expects me to wait around until she moves to Virginia.
    That is not happening.
    Meanwhile I haven't gotten laid since December and it doesn't look like I'm going to find anyone I'm willing to sleep with (I've gotten very picky recently) before the millenium.

    I just can't win.


By Claude on Saturday, May 1, 1999 - 06:44 pm:

    boo hoo!

By R.C. on Sunday, May 2, 1999 - 01:39 am:

    Lucy -- he's told you what the deal is. (Which most men will do/if you let them talk long enuf.) Either accept it & be willing to hang as friends/or wait til he moves & prove you're a silly whoe. (Becuz/not to dis/but he's obviously all abt this chick.)

    You haven't got a lot choices here. He's made it plain that he plans to be faithuful to his current flame for the time being. (Which I applaud. Wdn't you/if you were his woman?)

    Sometimes shit just is the way it is. Y'know?

By Mom on Sunday, May 2, 1999 - 08:40 am:

    Dearest Lucy:

    Slash his tires.
    Drink lots of VODKA.
    Fuck your brains out with strangers.
    Get really skinny.
    I swear, it works.

By Little ANal ANnie on Monday, May 3, 1999 - 02:19 pm:

    If i were you I would takes pictures of myself being sodomized by someone from another race.
    THen post them to his girlfriends windshield. It will make for some interesting conversation. I recommend using a summer sausage. Or you can also fill your vaginal cavity with cottage cheese and videotape it slowly seeping out onto a piece of bread. THen you eat it. GIve it to this guy and show him what he could have had.

By The Rev. Dr. Semillama on Monday, May 3, 1999 - 05:01 pm:


    please go to this website if you haven't already, and check out the psychedelic porn section on the sacred images page:

    then send them $30, cause you should be the Reverend Little Anal Ann.

By Little Anal Annie on Tuesday, May 4, 1999 - 02:24 pm:

    Thanks for the tip Dr. but I am too busy at to visit any other sites.
    Besides this one of course.

By Lucy Phurre on Saturday, May 8, 1999 - 07:51 pm:

    Well, he didn't really tell me what the deal was. He hid it from me until I confronted him directly.
    He swears she means nothing (We all know what that's worth)
    Fuck him.
    I need a new gothboy.
    He should be pretty, skinny, and stupid.
    He should like pain.
    He should not expect to mean more to me than a blow-up doll.
    I think I'll get the other gothboy (the one I'm mad at, who is a nursing student) to clean up the new one and get him out of my sight whan I'm done with him.
    (I wouldn't do serious damage, but nail marks can get infected)
    He feels guilty enough to be bullied into it, and it would amuse me endlessly.

    (I get really mean sometimes. I'm hung over and in a particularly brutal mood right now.)

By Lucy Phurre on Saturday, May 8, 1999 - 08:16 pm:

    Oh, yeah, and the other bit that pisses me off. I consider myself an attractive woman. I am attracted to women who are built like me.
    I am considered a "fat chick" in California because every guy wants Callista Flockhart.
    I am not abnormally heavy. I have the right amount of hips to have a low risk of heart disease, but that's not popular out here.

    I love CA for a lot of things, but it's ground zero for the cult of anorexia in pop culture.

    I keep a Varga Girls calendar in my room to combat these ridiculous images of women that we see (I don't even have a television, and I'm still bombarded by this crap). I will never look like that. I wouldn't want to look like that. I think it's disgusting.
    (I was looking at a fashion magazine. It had a nude pictorial, and I couldn't guess the genders of the models. Turned out they were all female.)
    But everybody wants a supermodel.

    Even the boy that I'm mad at was talking about Kate Moss being sexy, and he knows the survival rates for anorexia (which are very low).

    I was brought up totally feminist, I love my body, I know I'd fuck me if there were two of me, and I'm still having body image issues, living here.
    The one gripe I have about the state of feminism in California.
    (I have other issues with CA, like the lack of rent controls, the sharp class division, and the racist/classist cops, but that's another issue for another day)

    Sorry abt. the long rant. I'm hungover and angry.

By Sheila on Saturday, May 8, 1999 - 08:51 pm:

    and i am sorry to ever have said "get really skinny", not having meant it so wrongly. also, i just assumed you were already skinny, that is how i interpreted your persona (as in Lean & Mean, that as a compliment). i apologise.

    it's not about California. we all have those issues about our bodies, it's a legacy that we will probably pass on even while swearing not to do, because well, here we are, obsessing about it again. i hate it too. i gain control over my body by pushing it to the limits, not by starving it. it is my fixation that with each year the limits close in a little, no matter what i do.

    sorry to go on, this isn't about me, but you seem a little vulnerable right now. and goth boys are fungible, anyway. one is as good as the next, you'll see. use 'em, abuse 'em, lose 'em. they love it.

By Lucy Phurre on Sunday, May 9, 1999 - 02:14 pm:

    Oh, honey, that wasn't aimed at you.
    Just abt. sitting in a cafe in CA, watchin' all the eating disorders go by. Women here really are skinnier.
    It's abt. the fact that, every time I got a Barbie, (they tried not to get Barbies for me, which worked until the first birthday party that I actually invited people to) I would get the "Barbie lecture" about how that's not what a woman is supposed to look like, and the dolls promote an unhealthy body image, and I shouldn't try to look like that, nobody looked like that, it wasn't real, it wasn't attractive, it wasn't even possible for a woman with those proportions to stand up, etc, etc.
    All these efforts and there is still some twisted part of my mind that thinks I should look like a supermodel, even though I know they're anorexic, and anorexia's fucking terminal.

    P.S. To clarify abt. the skinny gothboy, that's not hypocrisy (A vice I avoid as much as possible), it's vindictiveness (A vice I indulge in more or less freely).

By R.C. on Sunday, May 9, 1999 - 07:20 pm:

    When I become Queen of the World/Barbie dolls will be banned. Forever. Ditto for breast implants. (Except for women who've had mastectomies. Funny, tho' -- I've never met a woman who lost a breast to cancer that went out & got implants...)

    All of the Barbies & fake boobs will be rounded up & melted down. Preferable on Hugh Hefner's front lawn. And any woman w/implants who refuses to remove them will have to get FAKE BOOBS tattooed across her tits in red letters. (In the interest of Truth in Advertising.)

    And there will be No More Supermodels. Instead /Margaret & I will hold a contest every year where Madison Ave. gets to pick 5 Real Females/& the design houses & fashion mags & cosmetic companies will all be required by law to use those 5 girls in all print & t.v. ads for the next 12 mos. All contestants will have to be at least a size 9-10. And the judges will have to pick at least 1 Asian girl/1 Black girl/1 Indian girl (dot or feather/I don't care) & 1 Latina. And each of them gets a million-dollar contract/so everyone earns the same amt. Plus/all contestants will have to pass the GED in order to enter -- no more of this snatching 14-yr-olds out of school & sending them off to Paris to work the Collections when that can't even find France on a map/becuz they've barely made it into h.s. They don't all have to be Yalies/but no more vapid glamour queens.

    Seriously tho' -- it may take a couple of years/ but if we put real women w/real bodies all over the media/the change in attitude has gotta spill over into everything lese. Eventually/you'll see size 12 actresses on the soap operas/& lush, curvy women in the movies playing opposite Brad Pitt & Tom Cruise.

    But I truly don't know how to solve the 25-yr-old
    girl-falling-for-a-60-yr-old-man thing. Catherine
    Zeta-Jones said pubicly that she's personally all abt older men. And I've always been into older guys -- but I mean dating 35-yr-olds when I was in my twenties. I don't think most babes who look like Zeta-Jones really wanna hook up w/men old enuf to be their grandpas. Even if they do look like Sean Connery.

    But unfortunately/ther reverse is not true -- most old guys w/dough seem to want to date girls young enough to be their grand-daughters. And we can't put Susan Sarandon & Jessica Lange & Diahanne Carroll in every single movie. There aren't enuf foxy 40+ actresses around to start a Re-Education Program in the movie biz. (I think Hollywood sends actresses off to some gulag once they turn 45. Unless they've got an infomercal out.)

    Margaret -- see if you can pull together a Think Tank to tackle this issue before the coronation.

By Nate on Monday, May 10, 1999 - 11:10 am:

    i am a 25 year old california male who likes a bit of roundness to my women.

    that's all i want to say.

By Cyst on Monday, May 10, 1999 - 12:41 pm:

    warning: this is long and boring and ultimately there is no point.

    the only vargas girl I can think of is the one on the cover of that cars album, and she has pretty damn skinny legs, especially in comparison to her tits.

    according to some british study of college-age men (don't remember where I read this), most guys like women whose body-mass index is 20. supposedly, 20-25 is the ideal bmi for women.

    (I forget how you calculate bmi, it says on the web somewhere. you have to know your height and weight, preferably metric.)

    most guys like skinny chicks. this is the way the western world works right now.

    most american chicks, even in california, are not that skinny, not compared to les jeunes filles francaises or the devushky in russia and ukraine. I remember once in a paris metro station I saw a white girl whose legs touched when she walked, and I was so amazed, I tried to listen in on her conversation, then I realized she was american.

    I should have known.

    I'm pretty sure french women live a long time. in fact, I think the oldest woman in the world (verifiable, anyway) is french.

    I used to weigh more than I do now, and I like being thin a whole lot better because I love clothes. and I think it just looks better.

    a good friend of mine is fat. she had tmj surgery and she couldn't eat solid food for six months and got voluptuous-normal, looked great. she bought new clothes, loved being skinny - told me so all the time. but then she got a boyfriend and lost the feeling that she needed to impress anyone. so she stopped hiking with me, started eating fettucini alfredo for dinner.

    I told her she was at a crossroads. she could keep on taking the steep paths up the columbia gorge with me, she could stay on the no-soda-and-fries wagon. but instead she took the easy drive-thru route. and gained all the weight back. now she spends all this money on a health club membership she rarely uses, complains to everyone about being fat, says that she hates me because I'm skinny.

    well, gee, I'd like to have fettucini and burrito supremes for dinner too, but I don't. that is the tradeoff.

    for most people I know, fat/skinny is a choice. it's like saving up money or something. it's hard, it takes a long time, it requires self-control, there are few short-term benefits. most of my friends do not seem to have glandular problems, some just seem to have a hard time staying away from extra-value meals.

    I think skinny people look good. if I cared a bit more, I would try to look like a j. crew model. like polly jean harvey. but I do not choose to give up the lamb shishkebabs and the big bowls of muesli. but I don't complain about the catalog models because they have made a different friday-night-margaritas-and-nachos decision.

    somebody's gotta wear all those cute cigarette pants. carry on, sisters!

By Cyst on Monday, May 10, 1999 - 12:51 pm:

    and barbie dolls are cool. the old vampy heavy-lidded ones, anyway. I had a zillion barbie dolls when I was a kid. I used to compose little dramas for them then act them out. better for kids than video games, I think. and barbie's proportions are at least as plausible as those of the tomb raider chick.

By Chad on Monday, May 10, 1999 - 01:28 pm:

    Men don't really and truly - neither in deepest depths of their souls nor in the most primordial parts parts of their genetic make-up - "like skinny girls." Men want sturdy vessels for their seed. All this Kate Moss business was perpetrated by the fashion industry. Women seemed to feel there is some tyranny of male opinion that forces them to be skinny, but if we had our way women would all eventually look like Camryn Manheim.

    It could happen.

By Swine on Monday, May 10, 1999 - 01:42 pm:

    annie mcbeal looks like an alien.
    kate moss looks like a malnourished child.
    pj harvey... yikes.

    cindy crawford was qouted as saying something to the effect of "if i had jennifer lopez's ass i would never leave the house."

    poor misguided bimbo.

By Nate on Monday, May 10, 1999 - 01:53 pm:

    if i had jennifer lopez's ass i would keep it in the freezer.

    the oppression of women by physical standard is perpetuated by women. i think that was chad's point.

    i'm just saying i agree. men could care less if your eyeliner is brandied raisin or brown.

By R.C. on Monday, May 10, 1999 - 01:57 pm:

    " I'd like to have fettucini and burrito supremes for dinner too, but I don't. That is the tradeoff."

    Never? Fuck that -- life's too short. Eat what you like. But in moderation.

    Everyone that knows me knows I gotta have my once-a-month B&J's fix. And the occasional plate of pasta. I'm sorry yr friend gained all that wieght after they unwired her jaw. But if not eating solid foods at all for 6 mos. is what it took for her to lose weight/she obviously wasn't very motivated.

    And you were always thinner than her/so why is she busting on you now that she's fat again? I mean/you were friends before & yr size wasn't an issue/right?

    Chad says men prefer women w/curves. :) But if that's the case/why are magazines like Playboy & the Victoria's Secret catalogs so popular w/guys? If men really wanted to see girls w/hips & (real) boobs & the ass to go along w/them/wdn't the marketplace have to cater to that in order to sell their products?

    I read once that only 6% of the women on earth have the body-type displayed in the average girlie/fashion magazine. So there definitely aren't enuf of them to go around. And I agree that some clothes (haute couture esp.) look better on a size 9 girl than they do on a size 14. But I wd think a man wd be more interested in how his woman looks in the buff vs. all dressed up. Yet I've seen guys on the street or out in bars dissing every normal (size 12-14) woman who walks by as though she were a fat cow. They all want the girls w/built like a 12-yr old boy -- no hips/no ass/skinny legs. But w/ C-cup breasts. Figures like that are extremely rare in nature. If a girl's got big full breasts/she'll usually have big hips to match. Becuz Nature loves symmetry. But no one seems to get that.

By R.C. on Monday, May 10, 1999 - 02:00 pm:

    Cindy Crawford said THAT abt Jennifer Lopez?!!
    What a racist bitch! Sophia Loren (believe it or not) has the same ass -- it's just 3 inches closer to the ground. Plus she's just got more tits to balance it. But you'd NEVER hear anyone say La Loren's ass it too big!

By Swine on Monday, May 10, 1999 - 02:07 pm:

    there are lots of women out there that are just tragically confused in regard to what men really want.

By Chad on Monday, May 10, 1999 - 02:51 pm:

    If anybody cares -

    A bit of what I said was the result of watching "The View" for a couple of weeks straight.(I work in a place with a TV in the waiting room that is always on.) I formed the opinion that that show does a huge disservice to women. Among other things, they seemed to spend of time talking about weight loss and diet - this includes the "respected journalist" Walters - and at one point it they looked like they almost brought Star Jones (I kind of like her) to tears.

    That, along with a hundred other things, seems to do more to reinforce stereotypes of women than anything else. So don't come crying to me when it seems that men are forcing you to diet.

    And, maybe it's just me, but most of the Playboy centerfold I see on TV or wherever look worse than on the page. I will never understand the career of Pamela Lee. I think we (men) have gotten to the point that we don't even consider Plaboy women to be actual women.

    Ah hell, I'm just sitting at work bored. I'll stop typing and think about Jennifer Lopez's ass; if I had it at my house I'd never leave.

By Swine on Monday, May 10, 1999 - 02:55 pm:

    no doubt.

    although i've subscribed to playboy for years, i stopped checking out the photospreads a long time ago.

    nobody believes me when i say that, but that's the simple truth.

    after all, how many naked airbrushed silicon blondes does one man need to see in his life?

By Bagpuss on Monday, May 10, 1999 - 03:23 pm:

    Swine's right about the "what men really want" brigade. They're as clueless as the "all women love bastards" posse.

    Personally, I have one criteria for fancying a woman, if she scares me she's in.

    PJ Harvey - ohmygodyesplease

    I have a theory about the playboy collective, I think it's more to do with status and peer pressure than sexual attraction or even lust. Men want playboy bunnies because they think other men want playboy bunnies.

By Cyst on Monday, May 10, 1999 - 04:28 pm:

    ok ok ok, sometimes I eat burrito supremes. but like once or twice a month. ice cream too. today I had a kinder surprise. complete deprivation of goodies would be impossible for me, and I cannot understand people who can do this. and I think that those who do would be totally picky bores who would be no fun to go out with.

    here's the url for a recent study on young girls, fat and dating:

    but here's the key paragraph:

    Not only was more fat a disadvantage for getting dates, but below average fat was a significant advantage, the researchers found, she said. A girl of average height and weight, who is 5 feet and 3 inches tall and weighs 126 pounds, is only half as likely to date as a girl of the same height and physical maturity who weighs a below-average 110 pounds. "One reason adolescent girls are concerned about their weight is that they believe that being slim increases their chances of dating. Our data indicate they are right."

    I think I'm getting too old to worry too much about what men may or may not want anyway. I haven't actually noticed any difference in men's attraction to me based on whether I'm a size 10 or 14. but I personally like being a size 10 much, much better.

    I like to have a concave slope down between the tops of my hip bones when I lie on my back. I like to see the line between the muscles on the sides of my thighs. I like for my legs not to rub together when I walk -- it's more comfortable and it makes pants and tights last longer too. before I wore looser clothes, and now I sometimes wear slutty clothes too. and I feel totally easier about being naked or wearing a swimsuit in front of people when my belly doesn't stick out at all, so life is genrally more fun for me this way.

    my friend I spoke of has always been fatter than I have been. it's just that this difference became very pronounced when she gained all that weight back and I came back from central america with a size 8 waist and pyramid-climbing legs.

    she doesn't really mean it when she says she hates me because I'm skinny, but she doesn't entirely not mean it, either.

By Chad on Monday, May 10, 1999 - 04:36 pm:

    'Tis True, 'tis true.

By Chad on Monday, May 10, 1999 - 04:39 pm:

    (I meant what Bagpuss said. I had typed a long entry and then erased it and posted without checking for any other postings.)

By R.C. on Monday, May 10, 1999 - 05:52 pm:

    Sooooo, Bagpus.... are you scareda me yet? ;)

By Elizabeth on Monday, May 10, 1999 - 06:38 pm:

    Well this is a topic I could go on about forever, so I will:

    FAT RANT: Let me really strongly enforce that 'fat or skinny' is NOT A SIMPLE CHOICE for many, many, women and men. Take a peek at genetics and you'll get your answer. Your parents and heritage will usually determine how large you are as a person, modified somewhat by your own personal behavior. That fact has been proven to me by my thinnest girlfriends who neither 'eat right' nor 'exercise' as the fitness gurus say but stay thin no matter what they eat or do. As for my mother who eats like a bird (and no cholesterol, low fat to boot) and is 5'2" and 190lbs there is also no 'simple' explanation. For some of us, being roundish (but healthy) is a natural - so please don't even bother opening the load of crap called 'if you wanted to be thin, if you had stamina, if you gave up (fill in eating habit of the week) you would be'. It is a load of shit. I know this for a fact.

    EMACIATED GIRL RANT: I share Bagpuss' thoughts about the herd mentality that supports the desirability of bunny type women. To my mind there is something really odd about the current model look. To my mind it seems to be about de-sexualizing women, to make them look pre-pubescent, hairless, so thin they'd never menstruate. I don't get what the attraction is supposed to be (nor do most of the men that I know from what they say). It's sort of pedophilic really. As Sandra Bernhard says 'give me a big titty bitch of rock n' roll any day'. Tura Satana, Lori Williams,.. oh ya!

    WOMEN AGAINST WOMEN RANT: Also, I totally hear Chad's commentary about The View. Women's magazines/TV often act like there is nothing in women's lives but losing 10 lbs. This sad misguided idea that 'if only I would be thinner I would truly be loved' is disturbing. I try to read Mode whenever I can because it is such an anomalie - a fashion mag for size 14+. Just to see women that big in underwear ads and looking seductive is something to get your eyes used to. Quite mind blowing really.

    DESIRABILITY RANT: As for what men like - that's up to men. It should be somewhat obvious that men like women who are fat, thin, kind, cruel, smart, stupid and everywhere in-between. Just like women do. I would say that it is apparent to me that your weight and appearance for both the sexes has less merit than the way you wear that weight, big nose, bad complexion, etc. If being thin and big chested were the only measure of attractiveness for women and (tall and broad shouldered for men) Darwin would argue that is all who would be left by now.

    AND BY THE WAY: Lucy that totally sucks about that guy. He is a dork. But at least you didn't get involved with him only to find out he's the sort planning his next girlfriend before the current one is done with. That is really pretty controlling and creepy and not the sort of thing that a woman who's really picky bothers to get involved with, no? Kill him and you'll feel better


By Semillama on Monday, May 10, 1999 - 07:01 pm:

    Bagpuss: Heard of Nashville Pussy?

    For the record, I prefer women with two eyes. I nose in the center of the face is highly attractive, as is a mouth full of teeth. I really admire a woman with a well- turned clavicle. And don't get me started about the inner ear.

By Margret on Monday, May 10, 1999 - 08:56 pm:

    I dunno. I have been skinny by nature and less skinny when nature and change in lifestyle (became more sedentary) caught up with me. Here's the thing: I wear what I want and dig on what I want and eat what I want and feel sexy all the time anyway. And it's not necessarily good, 'cause part of it is because I treat my body like a meatmobile, like it exists only to get my super sexy funky wowzers brain around. I dig chicks with a variety of physical attributes, but I totally crush out on chicks with brains. Janeane Garofalo, who is quite a hottie in her own right, stars in my fantasies of the perfect me because she's witty and clever and insurrectionist and embraces the existential truth of solitude. I'm the same way about guys. Yeah I like to look at the eye candy but my soul tingles for the repartee, for the brights, for the heart. It's why I would most like to spend my time with Billy Bob Thornton if I got to pick a celebrity date. I have a list of runners up. But you can't go around treating your body like it's not part of you. Bad dualism.

By R.C. on Monday, May 10, 1999 - 11:52 pm:

    I dunno abt Billy Bob. I loved him in "Slingblade"/& when I heard his 1st wife was Black/I was like "Interesting. Lemme take a closer look." But then I read that she left him becuz he beat her. Which his 2nd wife also claimed. So the jury's still out on BBT. But I hear he's a riot in "Pushing Tin".

By Bagpuss on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 02:06 am:

    R.C. - There's a limit to fear, there's scared and then there's TERRIFIED and then PARALYSIS and then R.C. ;)

    BBT does the hicksville thing TOO WELL, I think it's not acting.

    Janeane Garofalo mmmmmm, in the "Truth About Cats and Dogs" I couldn't get it, why would anyone not choose J.G. over Uma Thurman?

By R.C. on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 03:55 am:

    Becuz she was a skinny blonde w/a horsey face? Versus a smart brunette w/a self-esteem problem? (And in the end/he did chose JG.)

    (I never did get the fascination w/Uma's looks during her 15 minutes.)

By MoonUnit on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 05:32 am:

    *hehe* my boyfriend likes my curvy bits.. he said if i was skinny it would be like fucking a xylophone... made my day a heck of a lot brighter after walking into shop after shop that only stock up to the 'medium' size.

    Another thing that makes me laugh is that my pal Jules and I were talking about this store that calls larger women range 'personality plus'. I looked at Jules and said 'I dont think I've got anymore personality than you (she's tiny) I'm just fatter'. Anyway she laughed so hard her drink came out her nose. And everyone around us stared

By Cyst on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 05:54 am:

    I was only speaking from my own experience. I don't know anyone who is genetically fat who didn't eat a whole lot of burger king.

    also, living for such a long time in europe makes me wonder how genetic americans' fatness is. hardly any, and I mean -hardly any- young people here are anywhere near what could be considered "fat." I see one maybe once a month. it's bizarre.

    I'm not sure how much french and ukrainian genes differ from white american genes, but I do know that there is not a single drive-thru in kiev.

    ukrainian and french food is plenty fattening -- I think people just eat less of it. there are also a lot fewer ukrainian fashion magazines than american ones, however that may relate to anything.

    it just seems odd to me that america would somehow get all the fat genes. maybe fat white european youth just never goes out in public or something.

    but anyway, hurray for fat people, hurray for skinny people! everyone is good and beautiful!

By Swine on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 08:20 am:

    that's not entirely true...

By Cyst on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 11:02 am:

    I think americans overplay the role of genetics when they explain why so many of them are fat. I think lifestyle plays a vastly larger role than genes and glands and whatnot.

    for instance, the population of japan has historically not had a problem with obesity. however, recently their diet has switched from vegetables and fish to containing more western elements, such as beef. they're copying the western lifestyle, and as a result the population is getting fatter. this has nothing to do with the infiltration of american genes and everything to do with lifestyle.

    a chart "Adapted from Seidell JC. Int J.Ob 1995; 19:3" (whatever that means, see for yourself at but the numbers seem completely probable to me) shows that about 30 percent of white american adults are obese, while less than 10 percent of swedes and dutch are.

    do the swedes and dutch just have fewer obese genes and glands than white americans? of course not.

    do they exercise more, eat less crap, eat less in general? do they watch less tv, spend more time walking and less time driving? do they have fewer drive-thrus per capita? I have no statistical information on this right now, but I can take an educated guess.

    are the dutch and swedes all anorexic and unhealthy with short lifespans? no. I bet they are healthier, and I'd guess that they live longer too.

    I'm interested in hearing theories about how america ended up with all the fat genes in the world. maybe we got them in england and germany, where people are fatter than other euros (but not so fat as americans). I'm sure it has nothing to do with kielbasa, schnitzel, beer, fish and chips, scotch eggs, etc.

By Swine on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 12:09 pm:

    genetics are just a scapegoat when it comes to obesity in america. i'd be willing to wager that the vast majority of overweight americans are that way because of their behavior rather than anything having to do with their DNA.

    "everyone is good and beautiful"

    they must not broadcast the jerry springer show in the ukraine.

By Cyst on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 12:19 pm:

    my tv doesn't work, but I bet they don't. I listen to short-wave radio and receive propaganda from a different government every time I turn it on -- america, russia, north korea, belgium, austria, canada.

    america has the largest percentage of obese people of any country in the world. this is not because they have special fat genes not found elsewhere in the world. it is because they eat too much and don't exercise enough.

By Semillama on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 02:04 pm:

    I am in complete agreement. I am open to the idea that there are genes that code for obesity, but only with the right environmental factors (ie the american Lifestyle). It really does seem that using the genetics excuse is a cop-out for not taking care of yourself. I also see a problem with the "Fat is beautiful" folks who claim they don't have a problem. How many people will seriously claim there's nothing wrong with anorexia, that it's ok to be deathly thin? Ok, subconsciously, Madison Avenue has been trying to program us to think like that, but when anyone seriously considers anorexia, I doubt that anything but an unfavorable conclusion will result. I see it as all a matter of will power. My small gut could be a washboard stomach if i really made the time to work on it. It's just that right now I am assigning more importance to watching tv and working on my thesis than exercising. I even rationalize it by telling my self that for the next 6 months, I'll be getting up at 5:30 in the morning and working all day outside digging holes, which should do wonders for my body. Still doesn't excuse my current lack of activity.

By Slacker on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 02:19 pm:

    you gotta wonder what's goin' on when you get past that 500 pound mark.

    it ain't from skippin' meals.

By Cyst on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 02:24 pm:

    I always giggle inside when I hear american commercials that tout products or services "for your active lifestyle."

By Swine on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 02:46 pm:

    that's right semillama, you lazy grease-sucking bastard.

    just kidding.

    the american obesity issue is a can of worms. i brought up the points above in a conversation the other week, and before i knew it i was an "insensitive, elitist, misogynist, superficial asshole"... among other things.
    funny how that works.
    and i don't buy the idea that madison avenue is "programming" us like a bunch of pavlovian pigdogs. just because they keep throwing images of emaciated women at you doesn't mean you have to internalize that shit. i've been seeing those images all my life and i still think most of them look a hell of a lot more like aliens than my vision of a "sultry vixen."

    america has embraced a culture of victimization that will only contribute to our combined dysfunction.

    if nothing else, people should at least be able to take responsibility for the size of their own ass.

By Markus on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 03:22 pm:

    There's really no more to be said after that final comment.

By Margret on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 04:13 pm:

    I love my ass. First of all, I seldom see it. That makes it infinitely better than the body parts that manage to impose themselves on my line of sight. For example, I loathe my feet. Iffy on my knees, I used to hate them but then I scarred them up being s superhero, so now even though they work horribly they are muy macho. When I do get a glimpse of my ass in those bad changing room mirrors, I have to marvel at how much it resembles the ass of Lee Majors from his 6 million dollar days. How could you not love your own bionic ass?

By Cyst on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 04:33 pm:

    god. in some paris shops they have these highly advanced dressing rooms, where you can press buttons to call for help with sizes or whatever. and they have these mirrors lined up so you can perfectly see what your ass looks like.

    I don't think I had any creme brulee that night.

By Sarah on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 05:58 pm:

    you all are so full of shit. if you did any little bit of research into genetics you wouldn't be saying these things.

    or maybe you would. yeah, you probably would anyway.

    i work in cancer research. i study genetics. if you people don't think almost everything that you are is because of your genes, you are putting too much faith in psychology and environment.

    you know why pavlov's experiment worked with the fucking bell and the dog? because of biological stimulus response. stimulus -> chemical reaction -> response. the chemical reaction mediates everything.

    the dog didn't read Cosmo, did go to burger king, didn't drive a car instead of walk, didn't let Calvin Klein ads give it low self esteem.

    There are more thin Europeans per capita than Americans because Europeans eat less and walk more. True. But give me a fat european and a fat american and they will have the same (or nearly the same) genetic code that affects appetite and satiety.

    now go fuck yourselves. the lot of you. and try reading facts.

By Nate not a genetics guy on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 06:13 pm:

    if pavlov's dogs hadn't been in an environment where the bell rang at meal time, would they have drooled when they heard the bell?

    just wondering.

By Cyst on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 06:14 pm:

    at least give us some urls, ok?

    I do not believe that one-third of americans are genetically obese. as the years go by, the average weight of americans increases. this is not because of genetic mutations or fat genes being introduced to the gene pool. it has more to do with there being more taco bells and tv channels and cheap gasoline.

    my genes are the same now as when I weighed 35 pounds more three years ago. the difference? back then I drove a car and ate cinnabons at work. I lost weight dramatically, accidentally. and I haven't gained it back because I don't eat a lot of crap all the time and I walk a lot.

    my father, who has a bit of a gut, is the fattest one in his family. his siblings and he have the same basic genes. but they live that healthy euro life in holland, and he leads an american lifestyle. same with my mother, whose family lives in england. genes? no. lifestyle? completely.

    what does the pavlov dog experiment have to do with genes? it's late here in ukraine; I am confused.

    seeing a taco bell makes your mouth water? if I see one on the right side of the street, I am sometimes tempted on a pavlovian level to make a run for the border. but I can override that impulse with reason.

By Swine on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 06:31 pm:

    solid 8.
    without question.

    everything i am is because of my genetic makeup?
    sounds like a tenet of some neo-calvinist bullshit.

    but for all your emotional raving, you end up reiterating the exact point all the people you tell to "go fuck themselves" are making.

    "There are more thin Europeans per capita than Americans because Europeans eat less and walk more."

    that's not genetics.

    that's behavior.

    and you have no way of knowing that any two overweight people will have the same genetic code affecting appetite and satiety. that's just assuming that they are overweight for the same reason and totally ignoring their eating/exercise habits.

    whatever your personal situation or feelings about the issue, you just can't take behavior out of the equation.

By Sarah on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 06:50 pm:

    right. but you can't take genetics out of the equation either. which is what you all were doing.


    Person A and Person B both smoke 2 packs of cigarettes a day for 30 years. Person A dies of lung cancer at 65 and Person B dies of old age at 93.

    Person C and Person D both worked in a school with deteriorating asbestos. Person C died of lung cancer at at 40. Person D died of liver cancer at age 67.

    In Scandanavia, adoption records are not locked. Twins were born. Put up for adoption. Separated. Twin A grew up in a fat family. Twin B grew up in a thin family. Twin A and Twin B were both fat.

    Why do some of your friends eat burger king 5 days a week and weigh 125 and some of your other friends eat salad and tuna fish 5 days a week and weight 200? Why do some people carry weight in their hips and ass, others in their stomach?

    Do you think this has anything to do with environment? Behavior?

    What about some men who have natural washboard abs and barely work out at all? Others work out every day, do 500 situps a day, surf and paddle for exercise and still can't get their stomachs to look like abs of steel?

    Hint: It's called genetics.

    If more americans ate less and walked more, there would be more thinner americans. But the fact is that there are also some americans who can eat less and walk more and still be fat.



    again, i say: go fuck yourselves.

    good day.

By Margret on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 07:46 pm:

    I don't care. I don't care about the supreme code for my existence. I like Burger King, and I like cold zucchini with onions and stewed tomatoes. I like walking. I actually DON'T like driving. My mom informed me yesterday that I am an incredible amount like her: but she got preggers and got married. I have done neither. My culture says it's ok for me to have a baby out of wedlock and it's easy for me to get birthcontrol pills, so I'm thinking she may be right that our brains process information the same way, but I have different information that I'm processing. And I accept the genetic liabilities, and I accept the cultural influences, and all I can say is that it comes down to what's acceptable. It's not acceptable to be fat. It's not really acceptable to be more than lush. And I don't think it comes from men. Women ain't the victims of the male-made beauty myth, women are the victims of a consumer culture and their own willingness to let someone else tell them what and who is hot. Fuck it all, man, I think Kate Moss is pretty. I think her body looks juvenile, but I think those body types show up without anorexia, and it's cool to find 'em attractive. It's not cool to mandate them as the standard of attractive. I think I was wrong before. Based on all this shit I think I'm happy thinking of my body as a meatmobile, and I'll just save up to get it some mag wheels and shit later. I'm just gonna live inside my tiny little neural network and y'all can worry about the flesh. I'm gonna take the path of the holy fucking ghost. have a nice crucifixion. Kisses.

By Sarah on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 08:44 pm:

    is that sorta like the rape victim who could have avoided it, if only she had taken the proper self defense class?

    you can disguise that kind of logic behind clever writing. but i ain't buying it.

    let's blame the victim! oh, except that we are all victims. AND we are all perpetrators. it's inherent in the beauty myth; in the world of fashion and media and consumerism, there is no distinction between victim and perpetrator.

    the fucked up thing is that nobody is willing to take responsibility for The Way Things Are. let's all point the finger instead. let's blame Calvin Klein and pornography and Nike and Cosmo magazine. it's easier.

    but i'll tell you what. i bet most men don't even think to ask their other male friends, "Do you think my ass looks fat in these jeans?"

    it's funny. when we see a fat person we place blame on them. and not just blame, but we assign to them a disfunction of MORALITY. "lazy bastard", "fat cow", "no self control", "how could they let themselves GET that way??" sound familiar?

    but when we come across an annorexic person, we blame the media. "poor thing, weighs 83 pounds and still thinks she's fat. how awful for her." sound familiar?

    eat hot fuck. really. go ahead and binge on a big heaping 98% fat-free plate of it.

By Swine on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 09:06 pm:

    hot fuck is *never* fat free.

By TBone on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 11:53 pm:

    Well, I had a lot to say. I screwed the pooch twice now and lost it all... twice. Argh. I shall summarize again:
    Sarah: settle way down. Your finger is pointing just as frantically as everyone else's. If you calmly read over the other posts, people didn't ENTIRELY discount genetics. Sure, genes can make it harder to be skinny. That doesn't excuse extreme obesity. People DO have some control. There is no relationship between genes and a double-quarter-pounder. Television watching is not genetic.
    My lovely girlfriend is unhappy with her weight. No matter how much I tell her that she is beautiful and has not need to slim down, she sill hates her body. She's not trying to impress men. She doesn't care about that, and I don't want her to lose weight. She is surrounded by sting-bean women who consider her fat. She has come to me sobbing after overhearing such cruelty from her peers. Of course, you can't just blame women, just like you can't just blame genetics or behavior. Sure... Men are pigs. By the same reasoning, Women are sluts.
    My girlfriend is having a hard time losing weight. It may be genetic. But she is doing it. Slowly, but surely. She has been active as long as I have known her. She has always eaten less than I do. My big jiggly parents seem to have had little effect on my weight.
    There are so many variables in weight. People who starve themselves have to keep starving themselves to stay thin because their metabolism slows to a crawl. People like me who have fast-burning metabolisms have trouble keeping enough fat to hold the vitamins. I have to exercise like crazy to gain weight. Things can't be oversimplified like everyone seems to be trying to do.
    Since this is the third time I've typed this, I've run out of fire and have the sneaking suspicion that I'm not getting anywhere and might be contradicting myself. I just think people need to pay less attention to size. (But that could lead to a whole different argument).
    We are all wrong. Including me. Some people are fat because they're lazy, some aren't. But nobody is fat because they run marathons. Blaming genetics doesn't help those people who consider "taking the stairs" a real workout.

    And I'm rambling again. I'm tired and mad at this computer. I'm going to go eat some icecream.

By R.C. on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 02:03 am:

    It's amazing how hostile people get over this!

    Can't we split the difference & agree that the roly-poly 10-yr-old you see waddling along next to his 300 lb. mother probably has a genetic disadvantage/but the Walter Hudson's of this world -- & nearly everyone else under 7 ft. tall who gets above 250 lbs.-- have chosen to eat themselves into a slow death? Nobody's born obese -- it takes time & calories to get that way. But having fat parents will make it harder to avoid getting fat yrself. Harder -- but not impossible.

    Hey, T-Bone -- if that's B&J's/can I have a scoop?

By Cyst on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 07:29 am:

    what does the fact that the average weight of americans is getting higher all the time have to do with genetics?

    what does the fact that the average weight of japanese people has gotten significantly higher since the introduction of the american diet there have to do with genetics?

    why are white americans so much fatter than white europeans? I missed the genetic explanation for that somewhere.

    I am well-aware that there is a genetic component to body size. however, lifestyle plays a much greater role. personal anecdotes are pretty useless in this discussion, I know, but I know lots and lots of families where one of the siblings is obese and another is lean. for instance, my ex-boyfriend works on a farm and he is lean and beautiful, and his little brother sits around and eats potato chips and plays video games all day, and he must weigh twice as much as his brother. genetics?

    my brother, who is my height, is a drive-thru eater, and he probably weighs 80 pounds more than I do. blah blah blah blah.

    I wonder how many obese people have eaten an average of less than, say, 1,800 calories a day and done aerobic exercise for at least half an hour four times a week for the last three or four years. maybe a few, but I bet they still weigh less than they did before they started all that.

By Tbone on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 09:29 am:

    Right on... B&J's is the ONLY way to glut. I'm in such a good mood this morning, I'll be willing to admit that All men are responsible for the genetic increase of fat, potato chips are actually good for you, and tv helps you lose weight if you watch the scary and/or steamy shows.
    Yeah, this is getting pointless. We've all made ours, now we still dissagree. Until free speech crumbles, that's the way it will go. But it's a good thing.
    I'm going to go eat breakfast now because the TV says I should.

By Swine on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 09:57 am:

    eat rank lard.

By Chad on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 10:11 am:

    I once spent 2 years working and traveling in Asia - mostly Southeast and Japan and forays into China. When I came back to the U.S. it was like being in "Land of the Giants."

    Americans are bigger (or fatter) certainly because of the food they eat, and because of the American attitude that "enough is not enough."

    But so what? I know that when we become expatriots for a while we see America with new eyes and all that, but what exactly is Cyst's beef with the size of Americans?

By Heather on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 10:57 am:

    many truths about the younger generations.

    but have any of you seen the older population of the so-called 'thinner and healthier europeans....'?
    english, germans, scandinavian, turkish, russian, chinese, italians...whatever, almost everyone.... not exactly fragile many of them.

    but americans in general live very unhealthy lifestyles. a stereotype, yes, but a wide spread one (was that a pun?) it seems like many people are relying upon 'modern medicine' to keep them healthy to a ripe old age.

By Asia on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 11:28 am:

    okay. here's my deal.

    i work out, hard, 2+ hours a day at the gym, 5 days a week. religiously. i get a minimum of 45 minutes of cardiovascular exersize seven days a week. i crosstrain extensively-i kickbox, take step class, use the stairmaster and the treadmill on those days when im not taking step or kickboxing class. i hike, i climb, i mountain bike, i swim, i lift weights every other day. i havent eaten fast food in more than a year, cant remember the last time i ate red meat. i take in an average 1300 calories a day.

    and i still have a gut, boobs and wide hips. so does my mother. so does my grandmother. is it something in my diet, as an american that gave me these hips? no. its not. i'd be more than willing to bet that i eat *less* and *better* than your standard european, and i get MORE exersize. will that make my basic figure change. absolutely not. *that's* genes. should i get MORE exersize? eat LESS? no. do you really think that me skipping a once in a while dinner out would produce a whole hell of a body type change in me.

    bottom line would be this: i am a size 14. solidly. am i OBESE? not hardly, folks. am i ashamed to wear a swimsuit? oh, PLEASE. i was a lifeguard for YEARS.

    i dont like the implication that i am the size that i am because im busy snarfing down ding dongs inbetween soap operas. my husband, who's thin, by the way, and *still* manages to find me beautiful, if you can believe that, sometimes goes biking with me and cant ever keep up. hmmm. . this boils down to something that i dont remember seeing in this thread:

    because a person is thin does not always mean they're fit. or healthy. they're just thin.

By Semillama on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 11:49 am:

    Tbone was right on the money. As a possessor of an anthro degree, i know it's not all of one or the other. I repeat, there are probably genes that code for obesity in the right (or wrong) environment. the environment in which we evolved was pretty damn unforgiving, and I seriuosly doubt there were chronically obese folks then (would've ended up as lunch...). However, our environment now (I speak only for the American one) is pretty damn safe, and people who might have the gene for obesity can "express it freely" so to speak. They also have a better chance of passing it on. So that might amount for some of the increase in American weight.

    However, it's not accounting for all of it. the real question is, would so many Americans be overweight w/o the culture of convenience? Genetics account for our love of fatty foods, because they kept our species alive for the last 200,000 years. Now, we don't need them as much, but we're still encoded to want them. But just because we are encoded for that, doesn't mean we have to eat the fatty foods anymore. We have a choice in what we eat, and that's behavior. If we choose to eat the high-protien, low carb diet and we lose weight, that's because of a change in behavior. If we choose to eat at McDonald's twice a week and get the supersize 1/4 pounder meal, and we get fat, that's behavior again.

    Another point: you can be overwieght and still be fit. I used to work in a GNC and would read all the magazines to pass the time. I came across one guy with a fair size gut he couldn't get rid off, who spent his free time hiking up mountains. So, maybe he has the "fat gene' but keeps it pretty well in check by his activity. I think what people on this thread are unhappy with are the people who might have the gene but don't do anything to try and help themselves.

By Cyst on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 12:14 pm:

    I read on the front page of the international herald tribune on april 20 (under the unforgettable headline "at bottom, the problem is spreading") that the new cinedome in seattle is going to have wider seats. as is the new sports arena in seattle. and another seattle theater chain is putting in a special section with extra-wide seats for its obese patrons.

    because people are getting fatter. their genes are staying the same, but the rest of their bodies are getting fatter.

    anyway, I have no problem with the average size of americans. in fact, I like shopping in america better because I'm tall so my body is proportionally wide, and it's easier for me to wear, say, miniskirts made for bulky 5'6 girls than eurothin ones.

    but one of the problems I have with american culture is the lack of self-responsibility. in much of europe, they don't block off open manholes. you're supposed to look where you're going, or use your red-tipped cane or whatever. in america, nothing is the fault of the individual. it's all society, the government, parents, genes, the company that made the gun, the restaurant that serves its coffee hot, whatever.

    jesus, I don't mean to sound like a republican. I better be careful.

    and I just can't believe that genetics is the reason that the average weight of americans is 10 pounds heavier than it was in 1980 or whatever the exact numbers are. that just does not make any sense to me. how has american genetic makeup changed since then? I would just like that explained to me. that's all.

By Cyst on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 12:24 pm:

    good points, semillama. the change in average american weight, which has increased dramatically since WWII, cannot be explained in terms of evolution, though. it is clearly because of a change in lifestyle habits.

By Cyst on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 12:30 pm:

    this is going back a ways, but I would say that a roly-poly kid next to a 300-pound mom may have more than just genetics to blame for his overweight. I imagine he's eating the same foods at the same table every night and going out hiking about as often too.

By Nate on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 02:46 pm:

    fat people. hahahahaha.

    skinny people. hahahahaha.

By Swine on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 03:17 pm:

    yo mama. hahahahaha.

By Sarah on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 04:12 pm:

    genes don't make you fat.

    genes control the amount of food your body wants to take in. they control your "full" response. they control your insulin and glucogon responses. they control your brains ability to send out signals of satiety.

    these things make you fat.

    if your body is telling you to eat, it is hard not to eat. if your body isn't telling you to stop in time, it's hard to stop.

    that's like having to take a really big shit and holding it in for a week in hopes that it will go away. then what happens? the big mamma shit load. sorta like dieting and binging no?

    some people can't help what their body is telling them.

    i'm not saying genes make people eat big macs and watch tv all day.

    please get real. except Asia. the rest of you are .... unbelievable. dense.

    i really wish there was a slap mechanism over the internet. because each of you would get a big one from me.

By Swine on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 04:22 pm:

    sarah. hahahahaha.

By Nate on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 04:33 pm:

    big one. hahahaha.

By Nate on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 04:37 pm:

    "and don't give her any explanations. if the bitch can't pass a reading comprehension test, fuck her."

By Chad on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 04:39 pm:

    Don't slap me. I only posted on here the first time to say that I like a big booty. Or at least that was my gist.

By Asia on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 04:40 pm:

    cyst, let me ask you this: why are you thinner than me? do you work out more or harder? do you eat less or better? i suspect that if we were to compare daily lifestyles and menus, i would probably come out the winner.

    and that being the case, why are you thinner?

    just curious.

By TBone on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 04:51 pm:

    why do people keep insisting that their reason is the only reason? Americans eat too much, but it's not just the fatter people, and it's not all the fatter people. Relent!

By Semillama on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 05:15 pm:

    Right on again Tbone. This has been an interesting discussion, although I could do without being called dense because i have a difference in opinion. BTW, Sarah, you argue about points no one here has raised, like feeling sorry for anorexics and not for fat people ( I never said i pitied either, but I recognize that both have problems they should deal with), but then don't argue the points people have raised, like the ties to behavior and genes. You can want to slap me as much as you like, but it doesn't make your argument any more valid. in fact, it weakens your stance.
    Now, I believe I'll go for a walk...

By Cyst on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 05:19 pm:

    sarah - the people I know who overeat (including myself sometimes) are not necessarily doing it because of a fault satiety mechanism but because they're bored or because it'd be a good excuse to get out of the office for 10 minutes or because the cake is there just waiting to be eaten or because it's lunch time or because it will just go bad otherwise or because the mrs. fields store sure does smell good or because if I don't eat it now someone else will or because there really is nothing in the world like a big scoop of ben and jerry's peppermint chunk ice cream on a waffle cone on a nice summer day.

    asia - I don't actually know that I am thinner. when I was looking for urls on altavista, I found one of those bmi calculators

    and found that I'm between 21 and 22 (20 to 26 is considered "ideal" -- not "thin"). I'm actually fairly solid.

    and, by all means, you totally win the diet and exercise award. if you're fatter than I am, it must be because god doesn't love you. ha ha. no, because of genetics, which plays some role in body size. admittedly, some people really do have glandular problems or tend to have their mother's fat ankles or whatever. I think there is some tribe in africa where the women have asses that stick out like those of mandrills. heredity.

    however however however (by the way, anyone who is not calling me names is excused from having to read this), genetics still does not explain why americans get ten pounds heavier every ten years. the primary reason that one out of three american adults is obese is not genetics.

    oh yeah, asia, at least two hours a day five days a week? plus 45 minutes a day seven days a week? are you lying or are you crazy? (if I were a smiley type of person, I would put a smiley face here, I guess.)

By Swine on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 05:23 pm:

    told ya it was a can of worms.

    if you folks want to believe that every one of those 75,000,000 overweight people in the united states suffer from a genetic predisposition that they have no control over, that's your own business.

    you can ignore all the studies that point to poor eating habits and sedentary lifestyles as the cause for these skyrocketing numbers.

    you'll probably attract a large following.
    maybe successfully lobby washington for minority status.

    but that won't change the fact that most people in america eat too much and don't get enough exercise.

    when you do that, you get fat.

    regardless of genetic predispositions.

By Cyst on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 05:39 pm:

    I don't know. at the rate that the percentage of americans who are obese is growing, they won't be in the minority for long.

    it's already a third. higher if you only include women.

    which does make it seem odd that there's only one large-size fashion magazine.

By Asia on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 05:45 pm:

    im certainly not arguing that americans are the fattest in the world. just take a look at how portion sizes have changed over the past 10 years.
    a small NOW would probably been a large in the 70s, and that's just wrong.

    i have no reason to lie about how much i work out, and it doesnt matter whether you believe me,it's something i love to do, and since quitting smoking
    after 10 years, and relearning what it was like to really be able to *breathe*, i just changed to a healthier addiction.

    i just dont think i get what your obsession is, cyst, with the size of american's asses. or what american's eat. or whatever. it disturbs you, obviously, so you have really two choices: do something about it. fight obesity in america! work up a grant, submit it to the NIH and get your research (&eventual cure!) of obesity. or stop worrying and thinking about. it's not your problem. just be thankful you werent born here, else you'd probably be just as fat as everyone else.

    i certainly dont have a glandular problem, the women in my family are wide hipped, as i mentioned, and no matter how long i work out, that wont change. even if i moved to europe, that wont change.

    and you will certainly get a million different answers and opinions to this issue. this is just mine. your milage may vary

By Sarah on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 05:45 pm:

    many americans get 10 pounds heavier every year because of the food pyramid myth. according to the FDA and the Surgeon General, we're supposed to eat an ungodly amount of carbs (which = sugar) and low, or no fat.

    you need to eat fat. you even need to eat fat to lose weight. americans are getting fatter - even those who are NOT genetically predisposed to be fat - because their bodies are desperately storing all of its calories as fat because people are not eating enough fat. and eating too much sugar makes it that much easier for your body to store everything as fat. it's simple, really. simple physiology and biology.

    you don't need to eat so much sugar.

    you need to protein and vegetables.

    americans are getting fatter because they have not been properly educated about human nutrition... combined with their own apathy and lifestyle. for *many* people their behavior exaserbates their genetic predisposition to be fat.

    "BTW, Sarah, you argue about points no one here has raised, like feeling sorry for anorexics and not for fat people ( I never said i pitied either, but I recognize that both have problems they should deal with), but then don't argue the points people have raised, like the ties to behavior and genes."

    i brought those things up to point out how fucked up the world is. how the world blames fat people for being fat (which has EVERYTHING to do with comments made earlier in this thread and is not at all off topic) and how the world takes pity and sympathizes with annorexic people. my point was that it's not about behavior. it's about FAT. being too skinny is met with sympathy and even envy. being too fat is met with hatred. that, my dear, is FUCKED.

    now, if you don't think i've clearly stated my views regarding weight in relation to genes and behavior, please learn some reading comprehension.

    i don't mean to be so combative about this. well, actually, yes, i do. i realize that this makes people NOT want to agree with me or see the validity of what i have to say. but that's just human nature, and to tell you the truth, i don't give a fuck what you think. people will continue to make up their own realities in spite of the facts. but i'm not going to disguise my disgust.

    and believe it or not, i still love you all. even though you piss me off.

By Sarah on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 05:51 pm:


    one word.


    this concludes the "americans are the fattest people in the history of the known universe" discussion.

By Angry Samoan on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 05:57 pm:

    who the fuck are you calling fat?

By TBone on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 06:06 pm:

    what? how? ah, screw it. Everyone's got a completely different battle now. I really don't see why you're so pissed off. If you read closely enough, we are all basically in agreement. You people just like to fight for your right to be more right than everyone else. Woah. So do I. Damnit.
    I declare myself loser of this battle and American Glutton.
    My favorite flavor is "Coffee Coffee Buzz Buzz Buzz." It's one pint of heaven. Enough caffeine and fat to kill most people my size.

By Sarah on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 06:24 pm:

    i'll tell you why else people are getting fatter.

    because of our culture's obsession with body image. people are constantly over-riding their body's own signals. people - even thin people - are starving themselves and following ridiculous diet plans to lose weight. even if they don't need to lose weight. because in our culture, you really can't be too skinny. in fact, if you are too skinny, you get to help make society even more fucked up by representing the human race for clothing manufactures and on prime time television shows and hollywood motion picture features and having your too skinny body blasted all over the media and talk shows and interviews and award programs. and some of them even go on to make infomercials about dieting.

    uh huh.

    if people would just fucking relax and eat when they are hungy and stop eating when they are full, and not eat eat eat all the time, and not obsess about dieting and body image, i bet most people would find their natural body weight.

    unfortunately there are many people genetically predisposed to be fat. but they would still find their natural body weight.

    but it's hard to do that. we are so far removed from our bodies, from our own biology and physiology. food is not about nourishment any more. it's about convenience, it's about a dining experience, it's about image, it's about pleasure, it's about coping.

    part two. we don't use our bodies. we let machines do everything for us so we have the free time to watch the oprah winfrey show. we don't have to farm or hunt for our food, build our homes, tend for our children, chop our own wood (unless you are sheila), and work with our bodies to ensure our survival. instead we sit around in front of a computer 8-12 hours a day, drive here and there, watch TV for recreation, hire people to do our yard work.

    we have outraced and out tech'd our own biology and evolution. we have become so far removed from our own humanity. not only by what we eat and how we live our lives, but also our politics, how we overwhelmingly hate each other, by our obsessions with our egos, our self-actualization, and our constant and relentless self-consciousness. this entire thread is proof of that.

    i'm tired. i think i've given this enough of my energy. i'll let the rest of you battle it out from now on. good luck.

By Nate on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 06:29 pm:

    i agree with sarah.

    you guys are all fuckos.

By Cyst on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 06:39 pm:

    to kick a dead horse -

    1. I was born in america, I am american, I live in europe.

    2. the food pyramid and the fda have nothing to do with americans being fat. if you surveyed americans about what the fda's cute little mnemonic device was about what sort of food they should eat, a few would say "the four food groups," and hardly anyone would say "the food pyramid," and pretty much no one would say that they based their diet on the fda's food pyramid.

    gotta work again now, may bore you more soon.

By Cyst on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 06:49 pm:

    oh, everyone else has already worked it all out. cool.

    I am not actually obsessed with how fat white americans are vs. how fat white europeans are, I just think it's obviously it's not all genetics, and for the next month or so I will continue to have this job where I only need to work on something about 20 percent of the time and the rest of the time I just wait for more work, and I finished my book, so I am just typing out my 2 a.m. internet ramblings waiting till I can go home.

By Cyst on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 06:53 pm:

    oh yeah, and I spent a summer living in a part of hawaii with a big samoan population, and I have two words to say on behalf of nurture over nature:

    fried spam

By Swine on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 07:11 pm:

    yeah. i agree with the spinning monkey.

    that meaningless "clang, clang, clang" sound sure is amusing.

By Cyst on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 07:17 pm:

    sorry for belaboring the obvious; I will try to shut up now.

By TBone on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 07:21 pm:

    I demand to have the last word. That word is "Felching."`

By Nate on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 07:34 pm:

    but only with those cool twisty straws.

    oops. sorry tbone.

By Chad on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 07:36 pm:

    (I would like to add as a postscript that amount of American time and energy put into this thread is a little frightening.)

By Cyst on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 07:39 pm:

    (see how little self-control I have --

    yeah, imagine the number of quarter-pounders we could have eaten in this time.)

By Sarah on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 08:24 pm:

    kiss my verticle smile.

    yes, right there.

    tbone, i thought you were gay.

By Swine on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 08:50 pm:

    well now that we've all gotten in touch with our inner assholes, i think i'll drink a beer, smoke a joint, and sit on my increasingly-sedentary/aint-been-to-the-gym-in-two-weeks/hyper-evolved/egocentric/self-serving/shit-talking/guilty-as-charged butt for a while.

    maybe i'll order a pizza.

    if nothing else, this whole distasteful mess has inspired me to spend much less time online, cancel my health-center membership and join the boxing gym down the street.

    i need to get back in touch with my natural element.


By Agathaagathaagatha on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 09:06 pm:


    (did you all notice how i stayed conspicuously out of this conversation?)

By Swine on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 09:20 pm:

    don't make me kick your ass.

By Margret on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 09:34 pm:

    Just for the record (also, _I_ want the last word):
    I have been with my mom for three days now (I am vacationing in Albuquerque with her). I don't eat healthy, and don't care, but I am eating better balanced meals here, and I'm eating way too much. Shitloads of vegetables and the dinner meat and a starch (I always give my fries away...they don't do it for me save rarely). And it's some sort of horrible thing, some horrible psychological thing. I am eating to please her, to show her I appreciate her efforts, and because I actually do appreciate her efforts. But it's not good. It's not just the whole body image in the media thang. It's being trained that love means brown gravy from scratch.
    Yesterday I escaped her influence and drank pear cider rather than eating. If you haven't had this yet, you really should. Pear cider kicks ass.
    And to reenforce my point about families and eating and your psyche: for those of you who have ye olde traditional thanksgiving with your families -- how many of you have eaten something you didn't want to eat for whatever reason in order to (a) avoid hurting someone's feelings, or (b) because someone made it especially and you want to recognize their gift to you?

By Chad on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 10:17 pm:

    Looking back on it, I don't think I racked up too many extra calories just to please people. You'd probably have to have a bionic ass to get me to eat something I didn't want.

By TBone on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 10:27 pm:

    Gay? Not usually. I don't think my girlfriend would approve of that. No sir. I've asked. She said no. So I'm straight.
    And sorry, I'm only allowed to kiss two smiles, and they both belong to her.
    (it's spelled 'vertical')
    Here's my new last word:

By Genetic SPAM Chomper on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 11:54 pm:

    Not usually gay? Because your girlfriend won't let you?

    well, do you have a fat ass?

    here's a last word: liposuction

By R.C. on Thursday, May 13, 1999 - 12:53 am:

    Fear not -- I have it on good authority that yr ass ir quite adorable, Swine. Esp. in Speedos.

    And before you join a boxing gym/remind me to tell you me "Dating As A Contact Sport" story.
    Altho' I might just be buzzed & bored enuf to divulge same on the Drunken Ramblings board later.

By Agatha on Thursday, May 13, 1999 - 02:02 am:

    last word.

By Sarah on Thursday, May 13, 1999 - 03:25 am:

    Samoans were huge long before the invention of spam.


By Me hot dictionary on Thursday, May 13, 1999 - 02:21 pm:

    Penultimate word.


By Bagpuss on Thursday, May 13, 1999 - 03:19 pm:

    I'm not fat, I'm big boned.

By Semillama on Thursday, May 13, 1999 - 04:51 pm:

    Samoans also have a culture where they eat like crazy, it's a big part of their social life.

    Realization: Obesity= no one's probelm but their own.

    thhhpt! Let's talk about something else.

By Swine on Thursday, May 13, 1999 - 05:49 pm:


By Nate on Thursday, May 13, 1999 - 05:50 pm:

    don't be such a fat head.

By Swine on Thursday, May 13, 1999 - 06:13 pm:

    don't be such a fat ass.

By Sarah on Thursday, May 13, 1999 - 08:41 pm:

    Italians also have a culture where they eat like crazy, it's a big part of their social life.


    ding dong.

By Swine on Thursday, May 13, 1999 - 08:59 pm:

By Markus on Thursday, May 13, 1999 - 09:00 pm:

    I'll take you up on that vertical smile.

By Agatha on Friday, May 14, 1999 - 03:22 am:

    god dammit, can't a girl get a last word in here?

By Mr. Creosote on Friday, May 14, 1999 - 10:52 am:

    No. Fuck off. I'm full.

By Semillama on Friday, May 14, 1999 - 01:50 pm:

    it's wafer thin.

By Elizabeth on Friday, May 14, 1999 - 04:52 pm:

    No, I'm not over it yet. I just wanted to say FYI - when I'm talking 'genetically predisposed to weight' I'm talking about general body size, shape, etc (as in you're never going to diet your body shape away etc). Like I know this guy who is obsessed with working out, fat free diets, etc. but he's never going to have a body like Johnny Depp because he just doesn't have that body AND he's 43 years old. He of course won't admit that and spends a lot of time criticising others and himself for not looking perfect. I think the American obsession with appearance definitely fuels our weight ('oh no I just couldn't have a piece of cake in front of others', I'd rather have a whole cake on the sly) as a culture but, let's get real here, shouldn't The UK's penchant for deep fried foods, cheezes, and regular liquor intake make them a much chubbier country on the whole? It is that they're just smoking those pounds away? It boggles me. That's gotta be a prime genetics in action as far as I am concerned.

    Of course the other reality is that the current 'weight ideals', BMI etc. are largely subjective (ie: they depend on your ethnic background and family history - ask a nutrionist/dietician, I have) and are much disagreed upon by professionals. Surely they are more a 'sign of the times' than a real measure of 'what's healthy'. I mean didn't anyone else grow up in the 70's? Remember that red meat and cheeze = health back then. Only hippies were vegetarians. Though I wanted to be one, my parents would have nothing of it. They changed the fucking food pyramid since I was a kid, all the rules for health, just out the window. What's next? Metrics????

By Swine on Friday, May 14, 1999 - 06:00 pm:

    fuck the food pyramid.

    chew on rank lard.
    suck on raw flesh.
    spew my dead cat.
    choke my cold chitlin'.
    blow my big bipper.
    nibble my nice nookie.
    nuzzle my cum
    swallow swank swill.
    eat hot...


By R.C. on Saturday, May 15, 1999 - 11:44 pm:

    FYI: Eat Hot Fuck now comes in Lite. All the flavor/but only half the fat1

By Swine on Sunday, May 16, 1999 - 07:30 am:

    "lite hot fuck" will never be approved by the FSA.

    eat that shit at your own risk.

By Sarah on Sunday, May 16, 1999 - 03:46 pm:

    it causes loose stool and anal leakage.

By Margret on Sunday, May 16, 1999 - 06:33 pm:

    I just have to say: I love the term "loose stool." I just love it. When drs ask me abt that, as opposed to just rooting around in my reproductive tract or glaring accusingly down my throat, I giggle.

By Nate on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 11:12 am:

    ps. regarding the posted subject of this thread.

    "Those little details that the person you're seeing conveniently fails to mention."

    howabout "i'm married."

    that one threw me.

    relational non-sequitor.

    didn't see that one coming.

By Sheila on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 12:09 pm:

    i used that one a lot. and it was true. stayed married so i couldn't marry anyone else, and brought it out at the propitious moment. then i met someone who was doing the same thing, and we decided to get married, this time to one another. i gave him 24 hours to have the papers filed and served, and i did the same. six months later, it was legal. that six months was crucial, and i wouldn't have had it otherwise. just because someone is legally married doesn't mean there is any relationship with the ex. in my book, exes are as good as dead. but not everyone is like that.

By Swine on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 12:15 pm:

    did you move to the mountaintop by free will or were you banished up there?

By Margret on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 12:29 pm:

    I have worn an engagement type ring on the engagement finger for about 10 years now. If men are discouraged by it, screw 'em. If men are obviously NOT discouraged by it, what sleazebags. The crafty types who say things like "What an unusual ring!" or "That's a pretty stone!" get points, and if I like their style thang going on I say "It was my grandmother's..." and if I don't like what they got going on, I say "I always think antique jewelry looks better for engagement rings, don't you?" or something similar.

By Nate on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 12:48 pm:

    sounds like you weed out potentials with trival metrics.

By Margret on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 12:53 pm:

    What? Is that some sort of L. Ron Hubbard thing?

By Cyst on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 12:58 pm:

    you guys make me feel so well-adjusted.

    sheila didn't get a divorce from her ex as a stop-me-before-I-marry-again thing?

    margret wears a phony engagement ring to ward guys off?

    I am trying to imagine having these problems but can't.

By Margret on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 01:07 pm:

    Uh...what's wrong with keeping the majority of the male population at bay?

By Cyst on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 01:14 pm:

    does the majority of the male population come after you?

By Swine on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 01:17 pm:

    is the majority of the male population *really* barking up your tree?

    i hear women saying shit like that all the time.

    i get the feeling that it's more about feeding ego than anything else.

By Nate on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 01:20 pm:

    you wouldn't be saying that if you'd see margret's costco card.

By Margret on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 01:27 pm:

    No, pumpkins. I'm not saying that everyone wants me. It's more like for the population that would be interested, I have added barriers. The rest of the male population is already at bay for a variety of reasons.
    And Nate, that was soooo sweet.
    But Nate, you've also seen the driver's license.
    Split the difference.

By Cyst on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 01:36 pm:

    how is it that nate has seen your costco card and driver's license (but not seen you)?

    did he find your lost wallet or something?

    this is a strange place.

By Cyst on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 01:39 pm:

    how is it that nate has seen your costco card and driver's license (but not seen you)?

    did he find your lost wallet or something?

    this is a strange place.

By Margret on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 01:42 pm:

    I sent Nate bitmaps of him doctored up from the picture of him posted on PJs webpage. Basically, there was black and white Nate, Nate with Iguanas and Satan Nate. Nate said something to the effect of "thanks for sending me your creepy obsessive modifications of my face, but isn't the system in disequilibrium because I have no idea what you look like whereas you have an idea what I look like and have even manipulated these features digitally?" (not really in those words). So I sent him the work pic they took of me and posted on the intranet here when I started. He was dissatisfied with size and quality of the image, so I scanned in my DL and Costco card. I have nowhere to post them, or I would make all of the mentioned images available to everyone.

By Cyst on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 01:56 pm:

    geocities web pages are free.

By Sheila on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 02:12 pm:

    well how did i get dumped without even having a date? it is sorabjiland, the parallel universe.

By Margret on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 02:15 pm:

    I have one. I just can't upload from work, and that's where I have the images stored. Tell you what, Cyst chica...I will e-mail myself all this stuff at my isp acct. so I can try to upload it tonight onto my geocities web page, of which I am horribly ashamed and shit, so I will have to fix it up before you all start going there. Also, I need to white out some of the info on my DL. I am looking at maybe by the end of the week having stuff ready to be looked at. Happy?
    Maybe I can have my housemate work out some sort of Theme involving Nate too, so I can set it up as a Plus Pack download. But I kind of don't want to do that to Nate.

By Markus on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 04:50 pm:

    Satan Nate? How much doctoring was involved there?

    And yeah, it's time for someone to step up and volunteer an adjunct site for posting the regular lineup so we wouldn't have to go all the way to the post office to see what each other looks like.

By Sarah on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 09:29 pm:

    people who love themselves, who know their worth and are not ashamed of it always seem to get torn down by others.

    how sad.

By Swine on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 09:36 pm:


    i love myself, know my own worth, am not ashamed of it, and have never let anyone tear me down.

    go figure.

By Sarah on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 10:35 pm:

    how sad though that there are people who try to tear down those who do know their worth and wear it with pride.

By Swine on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 10:49 pm:

    that's why the good lord invented ass-kicking.

By Lucy Phurre on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 10:56 pm:

    Sorry abt. the lack of coherency. This post got deleted by my damn browser 3 or 4 times on Saturday, and then I didn't get much sleep last night (ended up missing the last train out of the city and crashed at a friend's house, and had to get up early).

    On the ideal of femenine beauty thread, just a few comments on my lifestyle:

    I am a vegetarian.
    I eat very sensibly, according to the way the human body is meant to eat (large meals before heavy activity, bowl of cornflakes or a bagel for dinner.)
    I do not own a television. When I'm bored, I read or walk somewhere.
    I don't even have a computer in my home (It's still in Baltimore, and it's currently in pieces). I go to the library or an Internet cafe to post.
    I do not own a car. I walk, bike, or take public transit everywhere (and CA is much more spread out, and steeper than the East Coast)
    I always take the stairs (I'm afraid of elevators)
    I have a fairly physically demanding job (moving around piles of schematics and running errands all over an extremely large campus)

    And yet I still have broad hips. Why? Because my body was designed for squeezing out babies.

    And on the standard, and what's "acceptable"

    My issue is with the fact that, if I recall correctly, anorexia has a survival rate of under 30% (I believe, way below), and everybody's talking about how being overweight is unhealthy (I'm not saying it isn't, it's just not nearly as unhealthy as anorexia).

    So, what I want to know is how come "it is not acceptable to be more than lush," but it is acceptable to starve yourself to death?

    Anorexia, bulimia, and compulsive eating are all eating disorders, all mental illnesses, all problems caused by low self-esteem, so why do two of them elicit sympathy, while one is met with contempt?

    My problem is with the standard itself, and its impact in CA (which is otherwhise a very good place for feminism)
    I am quite healthy (except for a couple of bad habits), and my body type is what I consider attractive in a woman. People in California react to me as if I were disablingly obese.

    I think that the current standard of beauty is grotesque. It turns my stomach. These girls look like they're dying, and the sad truth is that they are.

    My problem was with the fact that I'm still getting some leakage from these standards, even though I know I'm healthy, even though I know it's bullshit, even though there is no question in my mind that my body type is pleasing to me (since the women I go for share it), there is still some sick, warped, culturally brainwashed part of me that thinks I should look like that.

By Ridin on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 09:56 am:

    If you guys wanna e-mail me your pics, I'll set up a website so ya'all can see each other.

By Semillama on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 11:25 am:

    I like broad hips. My best friend, from your description, resembles you quite a bit, and I think she's one of the most beautiful people in the world.

    I also think California is a seperate dimension.

By Cyst on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 11:39 am:

    most models are not dying. well, I mean, maybe in a laws-of-thermodynamics way they are, but please.

    if you're really anorexic, doesn't hair start growing on your back or something? I think those models would get fired.

    but I am so bored of this thread.

By Swine on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 12:05 pm:

    my favorite girl friend in high school was a hot little oompa loompa love machine.

By Cyst on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 12:14 pm:

    the bigger the cushion the better the pushin.

By R.C. on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 01:26 pm:

    Lucy said:

    <My problem is with the standard itself, and its impact in CA (which is otherwhise a very good place for feminism) I am quite healthy (except for a couple of bad habits), and my body type is what I consider attractive in a woman. People in California react to me as if I were disablingly obese.>

    R.C. says: Try pimp-slapping the next person who calls you fat. Man or woman.

    Some folks don't understand anything but an ass-whippin'.

By Nate on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 01:48 pm:

    i wish everyone would make a distinction between no cal and so cal.


    CALIFORNIA is not any one thing.

    my part of california involves more dope and self-indulgent pseudo-intellecualism than concerns about body shape and image.

    california is also where everything starts.

    y'all just living in the lagtime.

    we are culture.

    we are the nexus.

By Heather on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 02:14 pm:

    and there's nothing new under the sun

By Sarah on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 02:45 pm:

    california sucks. it is the most overrated state in the union.

By Swine on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 02:47 pm:

    "california is also where everything starts.

    y'all just living in the lagtime.

    we are culture.

    we are the nexus."

    that's funny.

    get off the drugs, son.

By Nate on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 03:01 pm:

    jealousy is so unbecoming.

By R.C. on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 03:05 pm:

    Keep dreaming, Nate.

    In another year or two/Cali will be a heap of rubble under the Pacific & Nevada will be a coastal state. No place w/EARTHQUAKES qualifies as the 'nexus' of anything.

    Better move while you styill can, podling.

By R.C. on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 03:23 pm:

    And bring Agatha & Dave & the baby w/you.

By Cyst on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 03:32 pm:

By Swine on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 03:51 pm:

    i'd like to kidnap nate and drop him off in the South Bronx at 3 in the morning...

    just so i could watch him squirm.

By Nate on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 03:52 pm:

    california will not slide into the pacific. that's a huge misconception.

    i'd rather deal with the occassional earthquake than hurricanes and tornados. freak weather seems to be a lot more destrutive than our earthquakes ever are.

By Cyst on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 04:12 pm:

    earthquakes are fun.

    I remember I stayed out till dawn once during spring break in college and I was feeling guilty about some bad thing I had done (I don't remember what).

    I climbed into bed and was about to fall asleep when my bed started feeling like it was a waterbed and the doors of my closet started rattling, and my first thought was:

    I'm being punished!


    samoans are americans.

By Swine on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 04:15 pm:


    leave that dead horse alone.

By Nate on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 04:30 pm:

    i just remembered this video of a chick sucking a horses dick.

    she's going at it, and then all the sudden there's this whinney.

    and then she's choking and vomiting horse load.

By R.C. on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 05:20 pm:

    Swine's been looking for that tape. He wants it back -- Today, dammit!

By Swine on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 05:32 pm:

    that wasn't a horse.

    and i don't "whinney".

    god damn porn magnates never wanna pay a brotha his royalties...

By Sarah on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 06:00 pm:

    uh, yeah. i'm real jealous of people living in the over crowded, polluted, violent state of california. i can't wait to leave this nightmare paradise i live in now to move there.

    i'm going home to start packing right now.

    actually, my best friend lives in San Diego. she says that the whole california breaking off into the ocean thing is just to keep the weenies out of california. i thought that was humorous, especially considering that the state is jam packed, north to south, with weenies.

    (no offense, sheila)

By Nate on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 06:08 pm:

    i dunno. i live in a little town of 9000 people in the midst of redwoods.

    but that's ok.

    we don't need you.

    (and the jealousy is disgusting.)

By Swine on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 07:28 pm:


    california is 99 44/100% pure monkeybutt.

    and mike the headless chicken is gonna give me nightmares for weeks.


    thank god all the headless chickens in the new york metro area are all shrink-wrapped and on ice.

    that was some disturbing shit.

By Ridin on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 09:44 pm:

    Hey now, easy on the California bashing. Ironically, there are less than a handful of us natives around, the rest is full of you settlers who decided to take a family vacation and never went back. Talk about hell on earth. Welcome to California. Now go home.

    *And I mean that with the utmost affection*

By Sorabji on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 10:16 pm:

    i never dumped sheila

By R.C. on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 10:36 pm:

    You just got tired of treading thru all that goose shit, huh?

By Lucy Phurre on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 10:53 pm:

    Firstly, Thank you R.C.
    That's a good idea.

    Secondly: I'll get a DSM-IV or something and look up the exact number on the prognosis for anorexia if you don't believe me.
    When it doesn't get food, the body eventually starts metabolizing vital organs. Eventually, it metabolizes the heart.

    Nate: I live in the SF Bay Area, thank you very much.

    I see that shit all over Northern California, (and I know LA is worse, I got a sister there. She used to be this total Buddhist hippie who didn't give a damn what anybody thought, now all of a sudden, she's on the cutting edge of fashion and wearing makeup)
    Anyway, the fact that you like real women is not really a statistically significant indication of current attitudes in California.
    Sorabjiite men tend to be a disproportionately enlightened slice of the population.
    I see a lot more skinny women in Cali. I see a lot fewer zaftig women being treated like attractive women.
    I have a hard time getting laid and on the East Coast, I would hardly even qualify as zaftig.

    Now, to defend my state.
    CA has a lot to reccommend it.
    -There is a lot more protection for labor, and labor is actually active here.
    Companies in CA actually follow labor laws. Also, when I lived in B-More, I had 2 gay co-workers and I was the only person they were out to.
    -Northern CA has a lot more tolerance for deviance in terms of religious belief, politics, clothing choice, all the stuff you get endlessly hassled for on the East Coast.
    -There is less institutionalized racism on the West Coast.
    -There is less blatant racism on the West Coast.
    -The Bay Area (not so LA) is relatively non-motor-vehicle-owner friendly, with more public transit and bike lanes than most East Coast cities (although the public transit does stop a bit early in places).
    -Lots of vegetarian food.
    -The Bay Area is a very international community.
    -The cops in the Bay Area, (although they have other problems, see below) are not quite as trigger happy. I have yet to have a gun stuck in my face out here.
    -I am more comfortable in a more left-wing environment.

    Now for the downsides.
    -Both Northern and Southern California have an incredibly sharp class division, largely due to overcrowding and cost of living.
    -The SF Bay Area is now the highest-rent location on the planet (No shit. Beat out Hong Kong this year.), and San Francisco has just eliminated rent controls.
    -The cops out here are incredibly racist, or, more specifically, classist. They're bad on the East Coast, but the problem here is different. I get totally left alone in a Jeep Grand Cherokee with a British driver (who, btw, drives like a complete lunatic), but I was in a beat up vintage Mustang full of people, with a Latino driver, and the cops pulled us over without cause (never even mentioned one) and pulled us all out of the car and searched us.
    You will get pulled over or hassled for looking poor out here. I got a $55 ticket for jaywalking b/c I was dressed oddly (They ignored the chic drunks sweeping everyone off the sidewalk) in one of the suburban towns of the South Bay.

By R.C. on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 11:22 pm:

    Sorry/but I'll take FL over Cali any day.

    The weather's just a good. (Thanks to El Nino/it hardly ever rains here now). Housing is a damn site cheaper than in NY or CA (at least for the next 4 or 5 years). I'm not in the Brushfire Zone/ thank goddess. (Why do people insist on buying these huge plots of land & building houses in the middle of a bunch of scrub pines -- which are the fastest burning trees in the Continental U.S.?) We do get hurricanes/but nothing serious. None at all in the past 3 yrs. (Becuz there's so little rain now. Plus/I'm on the Gulf coast). And I'm not right on the water/so hurricane's don't scare me none. And there are No Earthquakes here. Earthquakes terrify me. Even if they only happen once in yr lifetime.
    I'd be packed up & on a plane as soon as the aftershocks were done.

    But I did visit SF once as a kid -- it was great. I'm happy for you that you can afford to live in the Bay area.

    Oh yeah, Lucy/I almost forgot: Did you ever get a smooch from that guy? Or is he history?

By Agatha on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 11:31 pm:

    florida has too many strip malls. one of my artistic mentors moved to florida to teach, and the lack of culture was so terrifying to her that two years later she fled back to the west coast. i'm glad she's back.

    i am going to be in california in less than two months.

By R.C. on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 11:42 pm:


    IIIEEE KNOW why American's are the fattest folks on Earth!

    Becuz of CHEAP CANDY!

    Thanks to Nestle & the Mars corp./there's cheap candy everywhere in the U.S.! Sure/ Belgium & France & Italy have much better quality chocolate -- but it's expensive. Here/you can buy a candy bar for 65 cents from any machine. And vending machines are everywhere. Candy is very calorie-dense/loaded w/sugar/& not at all filling. You can eat tons of it before you feel satisfied. And most American's are sugar junkies anyway/from being told they must have a starch w/every meal. (All carbos turn to sugar indside yr body/even the one's that don't start out as sweets.)

    I don't think there's the same body-con gym-rat culture in Europe that exists here. Nobody is as fitness-obsessed as the U.S. I agree that Euros walk more/but few of them spend 3 days a week at the gym. So the dirfference isn't excercise. The difference is they don't have dessert every nite after dinner. And they don't eat a lot of candy/like we do.

    There! We've solved the mystery.


    [And I don't believe for a minute that chicken was for real! Nothing can survive w/out a head!
    Shame on the Denver Post for perpetrating such a fraud on the public!]

By Cyst on Wednesday, May 19, 1999 - 06:07 am:

    I am convinced that you can get by in america with only a brain stem.

By Semillama on Wednesday, May 19, 1999 - 12:07 pm:

    Look at Ronald Reagan.

    who's from California.

By Nate on Wednesday, May 19, 1999 - 12:24 pm:

    Semillama- you're just jealous because we have better cheese.

    Lucy - whereabouts in the bay area?

    RC - they pay us more to compensate for the cost of living. it doesn't get so humid as florida. humid sucks.

    we have so many different people in california that i think if you want to look for a particular type, you can find that type. this goes for shallow skinny daddy's girls and mellow progressive hippy chicks.

    neither of which i associate with on a regular basis.

By Sarah on Wednesday, May 19, 1999 - 02:46 pm:

    i am going to be in california from June 24th until July 12th.

    San Diego -> Bear Valley -> Napa -> Peninsula -> road trip down 101 back to LA.

    i'll be visiting friends, camping, music festivals, wine tasting, visiting old lovers and meeting strangers, and i'll have a blast while i'm there because i know eventually i'll be going back home again.

By Swine on Wednesday, May 19, 1999 - 03:14 pm:


    like the little yellow bus.

By Semillama on Wednesday, May 19, 1999 - 05:45 pm:

    I am never jealous about cheese, except if it gets more action than i do (a possibility).

    Actually, several of my friends live/have moved to Cali. My friend Bernie has a studio in Burbank, near the airport, and my pal Emilie has a design business there. Another bud, Whitey, works in music studios as well and reputedly appears in the X-files as an extra. Then there's a band I used to go see from around here, how'syerday, which plays in San Jose, but I may be wrong about that.

    plus great bands: DK, Subincision, etc.

    there is definitely something about folks who live in CA cities, though. Much different from the midwest, like a minute here only lasts thirty seconds there.

    I still don't want to live anywhere near the big CA cities.

By Agatha on Thursday, May 20, 1999 - 12:51 am:

    i'm sorry- did you say whitey?

    semillama knows someone named "whitey." snort.

By Swine on Thursday, May 20, 1999 - 02:10 am:

    sorabjifest '99 should be renamed "deathmatch 2000"

By Gee on Thursday, May 20, 1999 - 04:37 am:

    I wonder if sometimes some of the people here who write their messages just stick a few extra return carrages in between sentances not for dramatic effect or whathaveyou, but just because it looks Cool.

    I get the impression, sometimes.

By Nate on Thursday, May 20, 1999 - 11:13 am:

    excellent obseravation.

    same thing goes for the lack of capital letters.

By Agatha on Thursday, May 20, 1999 - 11:29 am:

    i do that.

    it's like a dramatic pause.

By Swine on Thursday, May 20, 1999 - 11:43 am:

    bobby's aunt shaniqua is big silly jiggling hippopotamus-gut fat.

    she don't pause.

    but she's pretty fucking dramatic.

By Semillama on Thursday, May 20, 1999 - 12:07 pm:

    His real name is Chris Weitenburner.

    and if you saw him, you'd call him Whitey. He used to play in my favorite reggae band and also one of my favorite punk bands up here.

    Ah, swine, such poetry!

By Sarah on Thursday, May 20, 1999 - 02:48 pm:

    it's just fucking easier to read. the print is so small on these message boards.

    ok? you motherfucker.

    now love one another. right now.

By Swine on Thursday, May 20, 1999 - 03:03 pm:

    absolutely not.

    i refuse to love anyone who does not love me first.

    and even then i want the money upfront and in small bills.


By Nate on Thursday, May 20, 1999 - 03:04 pm:

    print's big for me.

    try enlarging your font.

By Sarah on Thursday, May 20, 1999 - 04:31 pm:

    enlarging my WHAT?? you prick, i love you.

    no instead i'm just going to type

    double spaced from now on. this

    should adequately piss off the person

    who thinks that spacing your paragraphs

    means that you want to be dramatic, and

    draw attention to yourself, instead of a

    more reasonable explanation like, gosh,

    it's just easier to read and provides

    a nice rhythm.

    we could all use a little more rhythm.

By Swine on Thursday, May 20, 1999 - 05:54 pm:

    i've been noticing that your powers of perception have been waning.

    you see hostility and animosity where none exists.

    you must overcome this inner angst and merge with the great Oneness.

    once you do this, my child, you will metamporphasize from grasshoppa

    and become


    Om, muthafucka.

    word is bond.

By Sarah on Friday, May 21, 1999 - 01:09 am:

    you are the most beautiful thing
    i've ever seen
    you shine just like sunlight rays
    on a winter snow
    i just had to tell you so

    (dramatic paragraph spacing)

    your eyes sparkle as the stars
    like the moon they glow
    your smile could light the world on fire
    or did you know?


    You mind is full of everything that
    i want to know
    i just had to let you know
    i just had to tell you so


    you're my butterfly
    fly high

    - L. Kravitz


By Agatha on Friday, May 21, 1999 - 01:11 am:










    (wow, that annoyed even me.)

By The Authorities on Friday, May 21, 1999 - 01:44 am:

    This thread has officially been condemned by order of the local board of zoning.

By Gee on Friday, May 21, 1999 - 02:31 am:

    Don't worry Miss Sarah. I understand. It's just your time of month, right?

    I still love you.

By Sarah on Friday, May 21, 1999 - 02:59 pm:

    thanks Gee, i love you too. you're very nice to me and i'm sorry if i wasn't being kind. i'll write a story for you this weekend ok?

    if perhaps i had more than, say, 2-4 cycles a year this might have been my time of month.

    have a good weekend everyone. i'm sailing to Moloka'i tomorrow from Maui. :-)

By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, May 26, 1999 - 11:55 pm:

    Nate: South Bay
    P.S. I'm not a hippie chick, I'm closest, I guess, to being a beatnik (which is my excuse for moving to California for no apparent reason?)

    R.C. He's history.

    Gotta go, the library's closing & my machine's broken.

By Mala-dicta on Thursday, May 27, 1999 - 09:57 am:

    Does the torture ever stop?

By Nate on Thursday, May 27, 1999 - 12:45 pm:

    Lucy Phurre: i work in cupertino and live in the santa cruz mountains.

    maybe we should meet. whenever 1 sorabjite meets another, they both go away feeling scared of humanity.

    this is my hypothesis.

    so maybe we shouldn't meet.

    the torture never stops.

By Mala-Dicta on Thursday, May 27, 1999 - 01:02 pm:

    We all know the sound of one hand clapping.

By Swine on Thursday, May 27, 1999 - 01:07 pm:


    the only things i walked away with when i met dave and agatha was a cd and a vicious buzz.

    of course results may vary...

By Nate on Thursday, May 27, 1999 - 01:17 pm:

    oo. i forgot about that encounter.

    maybe it's just any time i meet someone, both parties go away scared of humanity.

By Swine on Thursday, May 27, 1999 - 01:27 pm:

    humanity can be a scary thing.

    sorabjiites can be scary folk.

    it's all in the juju.

    practice good kung fu.

By Nate on Thursday, May 27, 1999 - 01:37 pm:

    yes, sensi. i will work to be a good grasshoppa, so that someday i might be buttahfly.

By Dave on Thursday, May 27, 1999 - 11:01 pm:

    i like pork

By Gee on Friday, May 28, 1999 - 01:35 am:

    Just between you an me....Pork likes you too.

By Mala-Dicta on Friday, May 28, 1999 - 01:47 am:

    Some people like to be porked too.Not that I know anything about that.

By Cyst on Tuesday, June 1, 1999 - 11:13 am:

    I'm not a skinny shallow daddy's girl, either.

    especially after this catalonia trip -- I had countless dishes of creme brulee, plus filet mignon, lobster, mussels, prawns, shrimp, paella, bakalao, anchovies, squid, octopus, clams, salmon, jamon serrano, more tapas than anyone else I was with, cerveza, sherry, sparkling wine, white wine, red wine, flan, gelato, eclairs, etc.

    "skinny shallow daddy's girl" makes me think of a spoiled blond sorority girl. but my parents are both immigrants, I'm mixed race, the three of us were all born on different continents, and I had to work my way through public college, blah blah blah.

    I can't help but like my father -- he's really interesting, smart and kind. he grew up in a colonial society, english is his third language, and he did that whole immigrant's-american-dream thing. and now he's the kind of guy who will spend a week of his vacation to help a neighbor put on a new roof even though he's arthritic. anyway. my dad.

    I guess I can sound shallow here sometimes, but in real life my underlying motivation, I hope, is to better understand and care about the world. my most recent preoccupation has been with the kiev mayoral election and what can be done to help the city and ukraine as a whole. (I could talk about it more here, but I think I bore you enough as it is.) in my own small way I am trying to promote the creation of an open society here in the former soviet union. I know I haven't changed a goddamn thing and I haven't really done anything important with my life, and perhaps I don't rank up there with the great thinkers of, but who knows, maybe someday I won't be just another shallow bimbo.


    markus suggested I meet him in bosnia this summer, but I think he was just being polite and didn't think I would say ok.

    no, I'm sure he's a sincere guy, and I hope to meet up with him this summer if he does go back to yugoslavia.

By Margret on Tuesday, June 1, 1999 - 01:19 pm:


    I never thought for a minute you were a whatever the fuck. I just spewed anger (which I will not apologize for because Swine is training me not just to own but to exploit my Rage) all over the Chat about Fat thread, but I generally enjoy everyone's posts, because I like the idea of polylogue. Jeezis, though, don't take this almost apologetic wiht and undercurrent of snarky tone again. Simply as a style thing, you don't wear it well. I like the minor arrogance of speaking your mind and knowing who you are that you usually exhibit much better. Y'know? If this board gets to be like being with my friends for 3 weeks straight where I'm bored because I know who will say what always or I'm bored because everyone's playing nice so as not to offend, then I'll just boycott y'all until I've forgotten what the voices I've made up for you sound like in my head. And I'm thickskinned and unimaginative and I want to be loved just like everyone else, so I probably missed the point of your post. I just wanted to say: keep up the good work. To all of you. But please, oh please, just give me a month of from the weight issues. I have been more concerned with my weight since these threads got out of control than ever before in my life. I just keep thinking: fuck the meatmobile, fuck the meatmobile. But it's a frantic mantra, not my usual casual with a touch of sassy dismissal. And I am helpless not to read the new posts. Please exercise restraint, because I can't.

By Cyst on Tuesday, June 1, 1999 - 02:03 pm:

    lately I have felt like I need to justify my life to myself, so I was just trying out an argument on you guys to see how it sounded. prompted by sarah's (?) response to a nate post that implied that she was a hippie chick and I was a sorority type. or something.

    I have to write my bio for the high school reunion scrapbook, and when I look back on what I've done since graduation, one of the first things I think of is a three-page complaint letter I wrote to burgerville once. (not only did they give me a coupon for two free meals but a huge bouquet of flowers.)

    margret, you are very nice, but you still haven't told us the url for that web site you were going to put your photos on.

By J on Tuesday, June 1, 1999 - 02:05 pm:

    Cyst,I think if you take some ex-lax,or maybe an ennema,you will feel alot better.

By Swine on Tuesday, June 1, 1999 - 02:20 pm:

    i think we should skip all the psuedo-intellectual bullshit and just lock ourselves in a monkeycage and beat the shit out of eachother.

By Cyst on Tuesday, June 1, 1999 - 02:32 pm:

    I appreciate your help, j, but I've seen your colonic advice before, and I generally prefer to take a less invasive approach.

By Bagpuss on Tuesday, June 1, 1999 - 03:31 pm:

    I vote for the monkeycage.
    Besides, I'm NAILS.

    It's sunny!

By Lucy Phurre on Tuesday, June 1, 1999 - 11:05 pm:

    I am squelching the desire to say something really really mean to Cyst...I believe in female solidarity...I will not be catty about her post...


    Anyway, even I am getting sick of this discussion...I've made my points, and now I'm just being nasty.

    Plus, I went to BayCon, which was a wonderful antidote to the body image issues.
    (I recognize that I shouldn't be dependent on other people for validation, but a girl's gotta feel attractive sometimes, which happens at cons, where there are women who like women who look like women, and men who like women who look like they would actually survive giving birth)
    I also met someone...don't know if it will develop into anything, but I find him charming, intelligent, and attractive, and I suspect that there is a possibility that I may actually get laid sometime before the milennium.
    But I don't want to jinx it by saying anything else about it.

By Bagpuss on Wednesday, June 2, 1999 - 02:38 am:

    But you could already have jinxed it!
    Oh NO!!

    What's BayCon??

By Cyst on Wednesday, June 2, 1999 - 07:10 am:

    I guess I don't know what "female solidarity" means. it seems to me that that means that all women should have the same opinions. if I picketed an abortion clinic with all those fundamentalist christian ladies (to try to save all those unborn women), would I be contributing to female solidarity?

    anyway anyway anyway.

By Margret on Wednesday, June 2, 1999 - 09:17 am:

    You just might be, Cyst.

    I tend to think it was a call to a minimal agreement in a specific and limited context, but y'know...I am a feminist so I'm probably trying to suck you all into my homogenized ovarian mind control. Ever since I took the oath and mingled my menstrual blood with that of my sisters on the corpse of the helpless college republican man we'd slaughtered, I find I no longer have a commitment to Freedom of Speech.

    Snarky Cysty.

    About that web site: didn't want to put it on my geocities account because I hate geocities and their little banners and shit, so my ISP and I are currently engaged in delicate negotiations regarding the authentication barrier which is not accepting my actual functional password, and whether or not they want to help out a check with a FrontPage Express situation. When the dust settles there will be Nate downloadables and you can look at my CostCo card.


By Nate on Thursday, June 3, 1999 - 11:36 am:


    just so you know, i don't believe i was talking about you when i said somehting about skinny daddy's girl.

    i can't read all these words, though. so if you didn't accuse me of accusing you of this, please do not bite my nuts off.

By Cyst on Thursday, June 3, 1999 - 12:34 pm:

    no problem.

By J on Saturday, June 5, 1999 - 12:10 pm:

    Cyst,I thought you were talking about me,sorry.

By Darrenn on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 12:46 am:

    thegirl fuckhisb bro

By Skipper on Sunday, August 8, 2004 - 02:30 pm:

    shit just forget him g'z, all these lil sluts in here don't listen to them, just get someone else, fuck its not like hes you world, and let him fuck that stupid bitch, can't you see that he don't want you no more, well he never wanted you but still FORGET ABOUT HIM FUCK!!!

By Big cock on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 11:23 pm:

    i m looking for sex and nothing else .make sure face is cover

By agatha on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 01:23 am:

    I just read through about half of this thread, and then walked over to the freezer and dished up a bowl of strawberry ice cream.


    I liked all of those eloquent people that used to post on here. Poor me.

By Mea smith on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 03:20 pm:

    well,iv got it friend and i we love each other..but hes got a one day i went on his addy,and this bitch thought we were cheatin,but we werent,so now i gotta get them back together...and now his gf thanks im gay..and errrrr.....maybe i should be im so sick of men!!

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