Ronald Lee Shanabarger Weeds: Ronald Lee Shanabarger

Jim aka PajamaBoy on Tuesday, June 29, 1999 - 02:42 pm:

    Ok. I need some plastic wrap, some duct tape, a warm and cozy bedroom, and some crockodile tears.

    He's on suicide watch??? That is soooooo stupid. Let the fucker kill himself and spare the taxpayers the cost of holding a trial for someone who admitted guilt.

    Criminal Justice in this country is a travesty. I'm sure someone in the fair land of sorabjiiland will have something to say in favor of the "watch," and I'd like to hear rationale in favor of that way of thinking.

    Duct tape the bastard's hands behind his back. Wrap plastic wrap around his face, several times, reinforce it with duct tape, lay him in the nice comfy bed, turn out the lights, and leave the room for 20 minutes. Return to bedroom and cry like a fool.

    That's Justice. Plain, Simple, Low cost.

By J on Tuesday, June 29, 1999 - 03:39 pm:

    I,m all with you there,what a sick and twisted bastard.Then he cofesses 5 times and then pleads not guilty?I can jst tell that they will plead insanity and the creep might walk.

By Rhiannon on Tuesday, June 29, 1999 - 04:09 pm:

    I don't think so. I can't imagine anyone could declare anyone who acted with THAT level of planning could be insane. This has to be one of the most disgusting, absolutely abominable things I've ever heard. Death is too good for a man that demonic.

By Rhiannon on Tuesday, June 29, 1999 - 04:11 pm:

    Sorry for the confusion in that second sentence. Couldn't think straight for a moment.

By J on Wednesday, June 30, 1999 - 11:32 am:

    But think about his reason for doing it?

By Jim aka PajamaBoy on Wednesday, June 30, 1999 - 01:11 pm:

    Oh sure thing.

By Nate on Wednesday, June 30, 1999 - 01:27 pm:

    that kid is obviously disturbed.

    the insanity defense is bullshit. people who claim insanity should be tried normally under the americans with disabilities act.

    or something.

    but we shouldn't kill him.

By Nate on Wednesday, June 30, 1999 - 01:28 pm:

    oh, but if he wants to kill himself. i'd be fine by that.

    if a criminal feels bad enough that he wants to kill himself, i say let him. i say give him any tool he requires.

By Waffleboy on Wednesday, June 30, 1999 - 01:31 pm:


By J on Wednesday, June 30, 1999 - 03:27 pm:

    If somebody did that to my daugter,I,d kill him myself,and I,d make sure they would suffer,I think the law should give you that option.

By R.C. on Wednesday, June 30, 1999 - 06:48 pm:

    Is this the same Nate who was considering possible violence in order to keep Miss Vietnam from being hassled by her asshole lawyer husband?

    And if that jerk had laid a hand on her/I have no doubt you wd've put a major hurtin' on his ass.

    Even if you're normally not in favor of capital punishment, Nate/THIS case has to warrant it -- in anyone's eyes!

    The man smothered HIS OWN SON to death. A helpless infant. And just for revenge. Why shdn't the state execute him? What compelling reason can you give for letting him live?

    Seriously, Nate. I mean/you own guns & shit. You've had yr share of boyhood brawls & whatnot. So you're certainly not a pacifist. Will you pls. explain to me why you wdn't support executing this guy?

    Susan Smith escaped the death penalty becuz she's a woman. (But I don't think So. Carolina has the death penalty.) But they're definitely gonna fry this guy. (Which is the reason for the suicide watch, PJ. They want him to make it to trial.)

    Even w/a guilty plea/capital cases take years before an execution date is set. However/I am deeply warmed by the thought of what will happen to Shanabarger once he sets foot in prison.

    There is something very satisfying abt that kind of brutal justice. When our so-called legal system fails/I must admit that I feel strangely comforted knowing that within our prisons there are men who have done horrible things/but still have enuf humanity left in them refuse to allow child killers & cannibals to live amongst them.

    The inmates will take care of Shanabarger. Just like they took care of Dhamer.

    And whoever does the deed shd be released from prison & handed a one-way plane tkt to the country of his choice. I cannot think of a more meaningful way for someone to repay their debt to society.

By Waffleboy on Wednesday, June 30, 1999 - 07:03 pm:

    i don't support killing this guy.....number one it's more expensive to the state, number two, it's an easy way out....stick him in a hole for the rest of his life and let him wallow in his own crap and live off rainwater and wonder bread. Prisoners have too many god damn rights to begin with, no tv, no cable, no internet, no jerk off mags or anything. hello folks its PRISON. By just dying he gets an easy way out, he suffers very little, thats no justice and what kinda of barbaric message are we sending if we say "don't kill unless of course it's state sanctioned execution...." please....

    as much as it appeases the emotions to commit eye for an eye, thats all it is, it's emotion, it's revenge, but it doesn't solve anything.

    If it's all about repaying his debt to society, he certainly isn't repaying anything, in fact the tax payers pay his appeal costs and his expenses in prison. If a debt needs to be repayed which i agree, get his ass out on the roads and covering up pot holes, picking up trash, sweeping the streets, working for the state in some way to SAVE the tax payers money. There are a million "idiot" and "non-idiot" jobs that could be filled for next to nothing, pay the bitch $.05/hour and call it a day.

    no more waffles for that fuck!

    PS-RC, just curious..... does the bible sanction/authorize capitol punishment?

By Curious on Wednesday, June 30, 1999 - 07:40 pm:


    Is this in DSM-IV, I wonder, or what would the APA'S code be for this person...

By R.C. on Wednesday, June 30, 1999 - 08:23 pm:

    The Old Testament talks abt "an eye for an eye" justice -- i.e. you pay in kind for the harm you cause. And it also supports putting soothsayers (i.e. psychics/tarot readers/etc.) to death; "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". (But that's not one of the Commandments.) Yet the 6th Commandement distinctly says "Thou shalt not kill." Which/I know/is one of the many contradictions that cause so many folks to feel that Christianity is a bunch of crap.

    But you said: "As much as it appeases the emotions to commit eye for an eye, thats all it is, it's emotion, it's revenge, but it doesn't solve anything."

    For me/it 'solves' the problem of my tax dollars going to feed, clothe & house that piece of shit for the rest of his life. (And this isn't an OJ Simpson type trial/where the state is going to have to spend a fortune trying their case becuz the defendant has the $$ to hire 1st-rate lawyers.) Keeping him in prison for life will cost considerably more than trying Shanabarger. And he walked into a police station & confessed/so I doubt he will appeal once he's convicted.). More importantly/it offers real & meaningful justice for the slaughter of an innocent child.

    Why shd someone like Shanabarger be allowed to take even one more breath? And how do YOU know he won't live to be 90 & smirking to himself abt how he got over? People w/no conscience don't feel any regret for their crimes. They're just sorry they got caught. Any type of life/even behind bars/is better than death in most people's minds. Becuz when you have life/you can still have hope. But his son has no hope left.

    The crime he committed was not only against his son/but also against his wife. That's the problem I've always had w/people jumping up to offer 'forgiveness'/like all those Christians in Littleton after the Columbine H.S. shooting. Yes/God instructs us to forgive those who wrong us. But forgiveness/like murder/is a deeply personal act. And only the people who have been harmed by a crime -- i.e. the immediate family of the victim -- have the right to 'forgive' the perpetrator. Forgiveness from strangers on the sidelines is just empty rhetoric. Or religious posturing.

    If Shanabarger's wife says don't execute him/then I'll say lock him up til he croaks. But I really do get pissed off abt my tax dollars ($40k per year/on avg./per prisoner in a max. security facility) being spent every year to support scumbags in prison/when Uncle Sam can't even provide basic, decent housing for millions of homeless people who have never hurt a soul.

    Taking away someone's freedom for several decades when they have comitted a crime that did not result in snuffing out someone's life is fair & just. But IMO/nothing short of the state taking his life can offer recompense for the life of that little baby.

    As much as I hate rapists/I wdn't execute them.
    But abusing children (sexually or otherwise) &/or murdering children is where I have to cross the line & support capital punishment. Killing a child is the ultimate crime for me. And those criminals shd pay the ultimate price.

    If our gov't. can require men to enlist & give up their lives in war/then that same gov't. can have no purpose under the sun more worthwhile than avenging the death of a innocent child.

    Think abt this Waffles: Someone breaks into yr house one nite/grabs yr wife while you're in another room/puts a knife to her throat & says he'll kill her you don't sit down/shut up/& watch him rape her. And you've got a gun hidden in the bookshelf right behind your chair.

    Wd you sit there & watch her be violated/just becuz he promised not to kill her if he gets to do her? Or wd you take yr best shot & try to kill the bastard yrself?

    I'm certain you wdn't think it was 'better' or 'more just' to let him rape the woman you love/then call the cops & hope he gets convicted & sentenced to life in prison. Sparing his life wd be the last thing on yr mind.

    Why don't you feel the same way abt demons like Shanabarger?

By Waffles on Wednesday, June 30, 1999 - 08:36 pm:

    I will ahve to reply more later, gotta go, but if iwas in that situation, yes it would be SELF DEFENSE situation, a perp in my loving may get a bullet in his head, it's apples and oranges,

    if i did have that gun hidden, I would as best as I could for his dick, if i could with injuring my wife, then a good blow to the stomach, make him suffer ten fold what he has acuased for us years to come. My oiwfe was almost in a rape situation, I have some friends with the last name Lucchese, remember that family? Eitherway I wanted to call in favors and have his knee caps broken, painful and believe me he would suffer but then i would be in constant fear for revenge, a bad cycle

    talk more later gott arun

By Fetidbeaver on Wednesday, June 30, 1999 - 10:43 pm:

    .....I wonder how many other people out there have killed their child and got away with it? Remember, he turned himself in after it had been ruled S.I.D.S.

By R.C. on Wednesday, June 30, 1999 - 11:52 pm:

    I know. Which means one must also consider the fact that he cd've kept quiet abt it & remained free. He says he confessed out of guilt/but I don't believe in that kind of guilt. Someone who has too much to drink but doesn't realize he's loaded/gets in his car/& ends up killing someone else while driving can claim to feel guilt afterwards/becuz the damage he did wasn't planned. But you have no right to feel 'guilty' after intentionally doing something you know is wrong.

    I think he only confessed so his wife wd know it was all abt a payback.So he cd fully & completely savor his act of revenge.

    And how come the doctors cdn't tell the difference btwn suffocation & SIDS?

    This bitch wins the grand prize for killing her own children. And becuz she's a 70-yr-old White woman/they let her skate -- despite the fact that she confessed & that there is No Statute of Limitations for Murder!

    She'd better hope I never see her ass crossing the street while I'm driving...

By J on Thursday, July 1, 1999 - 12:54 am:

    Like always,I,m with you,R.C,(I think you could argue with Jesus,and win).This bitch,I.m all down with you,bring it on,I,d love to get down with Dianna Downs and give her a taste of her own medicine.

By Gee on Thursday, July 1, 1999 - 03:09 am:

    The most compelling argument I could ever think of for why the Death Penalty is wrong would have to be the law of averages. Do any of you Really believe that every single person who's ever been sent to death row was guilty? If you do then I envy your comfort, but let's be realistic here. It's More than likely that a few (maybe more than just a "few") innocent people have been put to death by the government, and in my opinion, just ONE innocent person's death is way too many.

    And please don't tell me that the law is set up to make it Very difficult for an innocent person to be convicted and they have all those appeals and blah blah blah, because I'm aware. I'm also aware that the american justice system is far from perfect, and it is Not impossible for innocent people to be convicted of crimes they didn't commit.

By J on Thursday, July 1, 1999 - 03:37 am:

    I know how you feel.I use to feel like that too,but look at O.j.,Ted kennedy,seems like there is a double standard of justice here in the U.S.A,that,s why Michael Jackson is still walking around.Ronald knew just what he was doing.He confessed,and gave his warped reasoning for what he had planned for so long,and I still say he should be destroyed.There is no doubt about his guilt,Why should I have to pay taxes to keep the piece of shit alive?I don,t think so.The fuckers not innocent.Whatever made you think he was?

By Fetidbeaver on Thursday, July 1, 1999 - 06:13 am:

    When a person is killed by strangulation their eyes develop retinal petechiae. I wonder who the medical examiner/coroner was that missed or ignored it. Professional incompetence? apathy? lack of funding? Whatever the excuse will be people make mistakes, that is why I would never support the death penalty on a DISPUTED case. But when they confess, had motive and opportunity, (and are not one of the mentally ill who confess to everything) I say execute them. Recoup the costs by broadcasting it on pay per view. If you think this is barbaric, we allow boxing don't we?

By Jim aka PajamaBoy on Thursday, July 1, 1999 - 08:09 am:

    Gee-- I agree with you regarding most cases of capital punishment. But in instances where the moron has admitted to the crime, and is such an obvious sicko, then it's definately warranted. And, Waffledude-- I kind of understand your "wallowing his his shit in prison for life," but ya know... fuck... I say remove the suicide watch and let the sick twist gag on his vomit.

    I rarely get so vocal on things of this nature, but we're talking about a 7 month old baby who was brought into this world solely so his loving father could kill him and exact revenge on his mother for not being more caring at the time of his father's death. I'm sorry, but if someone I was serious about did that to me, I just wouldn't bother with them anymore. Plain and simple. But I sure wouldn't go through all that shit just for revenge. My words can be a helluva lot deadlier sometimes than my actions. And I take great pride in that.

    I just now thought of something that made me violently ill. More than likely, some Hollywood asswipe(s) is already casting their "screenplays," for movie's of the week on all of the major networks. Everyone will want their piece of the pie on this one. I can see it now... "... based on a shocking true story..."


By Nate on Thursday, July 1, 1999 - 10:44 am:

    RC, i am a pacifist by choice, a man by nature. the only way i would kill anyone would be to prevent serious harm or death to my own.

    i live in the mountains among mountain lions, wild dogs and the occasional bear. that's why i own firearms.

    i oppose the death penalty because the justice system fucks up. what gee said. how many people have spent 20 years on death row before evidence was brought forward that proved them innocent? how many people didn't get their redemption before fry time?

    beyond that, it costs the people so much more to execute some fuck than to just lock him up without possibility of parole. it's just demented that we'd pay more for the spectical of death.

    the commandment "thou shalt not kill" should actually be translated "thou shalt not murder", ie. kill without just cause. so that is not actually an inconsistancy of the bible.

    having a merciful AND vengeful god is, though.

By J on Thursday, July 1, 1999 - 12:58 pm:

    Those innocent people behind bars usually maintain they are innocent,and I agree it happens all too often,and there are a hidious amount of people locked up just for smoking pot.I read somewhere that the U.S.A has more people behind bars than any other country,who pays for this?I do,you do,do we have any say in how it,s spent?If we did,I,d rather feed and give shelter to the homeless.I still say that sick fuck needs to be dead,and the sooner the better.I wonder how you would feel if his wife was your sister?And I,m wishing Cyst was around so I could have her help me tie in my thoughts about the Bible and how it has so many common themes,Pandoras box=Adam&EVE,they all tell of the floods,etc.I use to be real religious and it didn,t get me anywhere.I believe in God,but I don,t know if She,s the same one in the Bible.

By Waffleboy on Thursday, July 1, 1999 - 01:02 pm:

    ok, now I will respond with much more precise spelling and a few less syntax errors...


    Ever noticed how many people on death row "find god"??? Why is that? because they are scared shitless, it's proof positive that religion is a warm blanket for our fears of dying. Let this guy wallo in his fear of dying for the next 60 years, and also dig a few ditches as well.

    It's a well known fact it cost more to kill someone than it does to keep them in prison for life. Check out Amnesty International for more information if you disbeleive this. He is much more valuable and capable of repying his debt to society alive then dead.

    "so I doubt he will appeal once he's convicted."
    oh don't worry, he will, why do you think he is gonna try and plead insanity and try and get off???? He will appeal if he gets the death penalty, they always do.

    "avenging the death of a innocent child."

    isn't this a sin? Isn't revenge a sin?

    Whatever, the guy commited a crime he is better served if works for the state for life, and for once, "for life" should mean just that. Do you find it contradictory if humanist/gay rights groups seek to protect the gay bashers from the death penalty?

    Curt Goering deputy exe. director of Amnesty International USA-"imposition of the death penalty in the (Shepard) case will only further undermine the humanity and dignity of all American citizens." -The Advocate 3/16/99

    Bottom line, capitol punishment regardless if he killed a baby or an 80 year old women, is idiotic and does nothing to "prevent" people from killing. People are not afraid of dying on the electric chair, so there is no deterent factor here.

    Believe me if the guy stays in prison and is in prison, justice will be served and money will be saved, it's the humanist thing to do, Execution is such a barbaric thing. We are so much more emotional when it's a baby, but please, a life is a life. Now if the guy wants to take his own life, let em go right ahead, that costs virually nothing to the state.

By Agatha on Thursday, July 1, 1999 - 01:57 pm:

    forgive my ignorance, but i am curious about the costs of execution versus life in prison. it seems to me that keeping someone clothed and fed for life would be a pretty expensive task.

By Waffleboy on Thursday, July 1, 1999 - 02:33 pm:

    try court costs for appeals. Appeals alst for years and years on end. They can be fed for under a dollar a day and clothed fairly cheaply. Those jump suits and under wear and shoes probably cost the state about $10 at the most. In California it costs about $75,000/year to appeal a inmate if you have apirvate lawyer where as if you a public appointed one it costs the sate approx $205,000.

    go here to get specifics on costs

    and here for more genreal info

By Jim aka PajamaBoy on Thursday, July 1, 1999 - 02:39 pm:

    And then there's a movie like Dead Man Walking that just wrenches your soul and gut. I agree it's a multifaceted topic.

    I'm just curious, again, why the need for a suicide watch for this bozo. Why not let him off himself so the taxpayers can be spared the expense of his trial, both from the prosecutorial and defense sides.

    Is prosecutorial a word?

By Waffleboy on Thursday, July 1, 1999 - 02:44 pm:

    it is now Jim, and yes i say leave a loaded gun just outside the cell and let him get it on in hell

By Agatha on Thursday, July 1, 1999 - 03:00 pm:

    interesting statistics. thanks, waffle.

By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, July 1, 1999 - 03:51 pm:

    Why I am opposed to the death penalty:

    1: It costs more than life imprisonment. However, most death penalty advocates will tell you that the expense could be reduced by cutting down on the appeals process. I think that the appeals process is there for a reason.

    2: It does NOT work as a deterrent. As a matter of fact, murder rates go up after an execution.
    See this:

    3: I simply do not trust my government with the power of life and death. The US justice system has proven itself again and again to be unethical and corrupt.
    There is, of course, the issue of racial bias in the application of the death penalty:

    There is also the issue of obvious political prisoners like:

    Mumia Abu-Jamal,

    Leonard Peltier

    Or, if you want to go back further, there are cases like Joe Hill, and Sacco & Venzetti (I don't have time to do links for these)

    In short, I do not feel that my government can be trusted with the death penalty.

    More later. Gotta go.

By Gee on Thursday, July 1, 1999 - 05:22 pm:

    J - I never said Shanabarger was innocent. I only said that I'm sure there have been innocent people sentenced to the death penalty.

    Jim - I prefer to think of the death penalty as a black and white issue. I know, I know, it's not by far, but I NEED to think of it that way in order to maintain some level of peace. The way I see it, once you start saying "Well, surely it must be alright to kill This One...since he confessed and all!" then the line gets blurred, and the next thing you know it's "Well, surely it must be alright to kill This One....since he's so funny looking and all!" An extream situation, I know, but in my opinion, entirely possible.

By Waffleboy on Thursday, July 1, 1999 - 06:19 pm:

By R.C. on Thursday, July 1, 1999 - 10:05 pm:

    Gee -- it may sound crass/but in terms of the greater good/having an innocent person executed for a crime he didn't committ is less harmful to society than letting 10 serial killers go free. I know it's a horrific loss to the person who got fried for no reason. And for his family. But I never had to worry abt that person breaking into my house one nite & killing me. Or snatching my goddaughter off the street/raping her/then dismembering her body to eat for dinner.

    But the 10 guilty criminals that were set free after serving their time pose a genuine threat to me & mine.

    People claim that the death penalty isn't a viable deterrent. But we know that it is -- criminals use it every day! Someone puts a gun to yr head or a knife to yr throat as says "Do as I say or I'll kill you!". And we comply/rather than face immediate execution.

    If capital punishment was carried out swiftly/if our judicial system wd appoint special judges in each district to do nothing but hear capital cases/& the bastards who lost again once they got to the Supreme court were sent back to prison & executed 2 wks. later/it wd have a substantially chilling effect on the most wanton/but rational/criminals. Capital punishment isn't the problem. The fact that criminals know that even if they've convicted/they'll spend 15 or 20 yrs. on death row before they face execution /is the problem. "Justice dealyed is justice denied."

    And I reiterate once again: Being human carries an implicit burden to behave HUMANELY towards others. When you committ a horrific crime/like killing yr own child/you give up yr right to be regarded as a human being w/basic human rights. And you shd be executed as payment fo the life you willfully took.

By Waffleboy on Thursday, July 1, 1999 - 10:11 pm:

    i just find the argument silly now, RC it's a well known anomoly/fact that in countries that use the death penalty have a higher rate of violetn crime. The death penalty does not deter anyone from committing crime.

By R.C. on Thursday, July 1, 1999 - 10:43 pm:

    <It's a well- known fact it cost more to kill someone than it does to keep them in prison for life. Check out Amnesty International for more information if you disbeleive this.>

    I don't care what AI says/I just can't buy that. I am a supporter of AI/but that particular claim sounds as inflammatory & self-serving as the feminist claim back in the 1980's that cases of spousal abuse skyrocket during & just after the Superbowl every year. That was a false statement some writer made up w/out any documentation to support her cause. And what Amnesty is saying sounds just a specious.

    Curt Goering's remarks are nothing more than opinion. And his opinions don't carry any more weight than mine or anyone else's on this subject. But in this post/I am trying to support my opinions w/some rational facts. Altho' I am lacking in links/I think common sense might carry the day.

    The 'costs' of capital punishment -- i.e. the act of execution -- must be distinguished from the legal costs of appealing such cases. And those expenses cd easily be reduced by appointing special courts in each jurisdiction to hear capital cases & only capital cases. My civics is pretty rusty/& I don't remember how many various levels of the court system one must meander thru before reaching the Supreme court. But that too cd be resolved by making capital crimes subject to a simple 3-tiered process. You get tried in yr local city or county court & lose/you appeal to the state court & lose/then you go directly to the federal level -- the Supreme court. This wd preserve the appeals process/which is the foundation of due process IMO/& still serve to expedite capital cases by funneling them thru a court system than wd be devoted solely to trying capital crimes. (And all judges handling those crimes wd be elected/not appointed).

    There shd also be a specific judge within each superme court district to hear the last-resort appeals. In this way/the appeals process/which now takes years if not decades/cd be reduced /probably to 12-14 mos. And wd cost far less than it does now.

    As far as the literal costs of execution go/if we simply hired an executioner (& they only make $50 a pop) to put a bullet in the bastard's head/instead of all this drama w/the electric chair & lethal injections/it wdn't cost the state more than a hundred bucks to execute capital criminals. The fact that our legal system has concocted such bizarre methods of execution isn't sufficient grounds for eliminating capital punishment/any more than the high cost of hospital deliveries shd be grounds for limiting the # of children a woman can have. There are simpler & cheaper ways to to have a baby/or execute a killer.

    As far as the 'barbarism' of capital punishment goes/why not "let the punishment fit the crime"? Death by lethal injection/or a gunshot/is a lot more humane than the methods most killers use on their victims.

    [And thanks, Nate for yr response. Even tho' I don't agree/I appreciate that you took the time.]

By R.C. on Thursday, July 1, 1999 - 10:48 pm:

    Thailand has capital punishment. And I KNOW their murder rate is lower than ours!

    But I need to find some links to document that...

    And frankly/I don't care abt murder rates in other countries. I don't have to worry abt getting killed in Spain or Madagascar/becuz I don't live there. This thread is abt C.P. in America.

By Fetidbeaver on Thursday, July 1, 1999 - 11:23 pm:

    Stats say anything you want them to. People who say that keeping a person in prison is cheaper than executing them are twisting numbers to support their agenda. Providing a prisoners physical needs over 20 or 30 years is a much greater cost than execution.The problem is that people who oppose the death penalty add the litigation costs to the cost of execution but conviently forget the litigation costs associated with a life sentence. Does anyone really believe that when these people recieve a life sentence they are so grateful that they don't file appeals?
    I know for a fact that they do. The man who set an arson fire that killed my brother (he was a fireman) is still filing appeals. His father is rich and has spent countless dollars spreading lies and half-truths. This costs you the tax payer much more.(see his web site )

By Waffleboy on Friday, July 2, 1999 - 11:17 am:

    um ok RC if you wish to revamp the entire legal system to fit your image and rational of things go ahead, the fact are facts, statistics are statistics, yes they can be skewed but some statistics you cant hide from, you can believe what you will and ignore what you like, but. Bottmo line it's idiotic to kill, to make an example, to get a big ream in the ass called "justice" and make us all feel better know that he is dead, the mention of other countries is relavent because they can possibly set an example for us....also in Thailnad they don't sell guns there, that is another factor

By Nate on Friday, July 2, 1999 - 12:26 pm:

    justice = low rung folks trying to move up the ladder

    freedom = high rung folks trying to stay where they are.

    murder rates rise in times of prosperity. maybe no one should prosper but the elite. the job of the elite is to create and enforce law. secret police will be utilized for the latter.

    if the secret police have to kill some plebians to maintain order, that's fine. murder by the government for the sake of order is morally justified.

    i have to go. i'm supposed to meet stalin and pol pot at starbucks for mochas.

By Waffleboy on Friday, July 2, 1999 - 12:34 pm:

    tell Joe I said hello, tell he left his chaps at my house last week

By Jim aka PajamaBoy on Friday, July 2, 1999 - 12:35 pm:


By Lucy Phurre on Friday, July 2, 1999 - 03:14 pm:

    Countries with the death penalty have higher murder rates.
    The murder rate in a state rises after an execution.
    The death penalty causes murder rates to go up.
    Therefore, it is not a deterrent.
    It simply doesn't work on a social level, whether or not you think it should.

    The death penalty is more expensive than a life sentence.
    That is a fact, whether or not it makes sense to you. Amnesty International is not the only organization that says that (My link was to the A.C.L.U).

    There's also the political issue. How do you feel about the current government having the power of life and death? They can and will frame and execute you if you become politically inconvenient to them.
    They did it blatantly in the '30s (including one group of protesters for which one of the jurors said something to the effect of "I don't think they're guilty, but they have to die for the stability of the nation"), and they are still doing it.
    Between my family history, and the political climate, that worries me.

By WAFFLEBOY on Friday, July 2, 1999 - 03:21 pm:

    RIGHT ON.....

By Tesserae on Friday, July 2, 1999 - 03:55 pm:

    C.P. is just a panacea; it lets us feel like we're doing something about soceity's ills. The real problems at hand (guns, violence, the usual) still remain, we've just disposed of the topmost part (the criminals themselves). It's like mowing your lawn to get rid of those yellow-flower weeds that pop up on occasion...the most visible part is gone, but you can count on it growing back. Sure, victims can count on vindication, but with the knowledge that similar crimes can, have, and will continue to happen hundereds of other citizens, how satisfying can that vindication really feel in the long run?
    On the other hand, we *are* a culture of instant gratification, so what else can you expect?
    Another concern, is the fact that some sociopath will notice a high-profile case such as this and think, "well, I'm sick of it all anyhow; I might as well go out with a bang like this guy..." Wouldn't be the first time a copycat crime has been committed.

By R.C. on Saturday, July 3, 1999 - 03:36 am:

    Once you execute someone/they won't have a chance to victimize anyone else. So that certainly helps prevent crime.

    Perhaps having been a victim of voilent crime makes a difference. A lot of people change their minds abt the death penalty once they've had to deal w/losing a loved one at the hands of some depraved sicko. Up until that point/it's real easy to intellectualize becuz it hasn't touched you personally.

    Folks never agree on this issue/& this place shdn't be any different than any other forum. But as I & a couple of others have said -- there is NO WAY a lethal injection or gassing (NOT the legal costs leading up to that point) can cost more than keeping someone in prison for a lifetime. That's just basic math.

    I still hope Shanabarger gets fried. But I think FL is the only state left that still uses Old Sparky.

By Jim aka PajamaBoy on Saturday, July 3, 1999 - 08:48 am:

    R.C. - while I'm in your corner, I think the costly piece of execution is the seemingly endless appeals, and pleas to this governor and that supreme court justice.

By Lucy Phurre on Saturday, July 3, 1999 - 07:14 pm:

    R.C. It may make you feel better.
    Will it make the additional murder victims (from the increase in murder rate that CONSISTENTLY follows the death penalty) feel better?
    Will you tell those family members, "Your son/daughter/wife/husband/uncle/aunt/friend is dead, but at least I got to feel avenged"???

    Sickos like Shanabarger are certainly not going to be deterred by the death penalty, I think that's pretty clear.
    As a matter of fact, the psychology of a genuinely mentally ill killer generally involves a pretty strong deathwish.

    It also doesn't help that the death penalty cheapens life.

    It's documented fact that the murder rate goes UP after an execution. MORE PEOPLE DIE. As far as I'm concerned, that's the bottom line on the deterrent issue.

    Also, Jim, in the light of the U.S. Injustice Department's blatant abuse of power in the cases linked to above, do you really think that lessening the protections of the individual citizen is a good idea?

By Antigone on Sunday, July 4, 1999 - 05:48 am:

    RC, special courts that only listen to death penalty cases? Why stop at that? How about judges on the street with guns? Sound far fetched? Not at all! They're called police and they shoot guilty people all of the time!

    Now, that's swift justice! What about issuing every adult a handgun and a license to perform a "citizen's arrest?" At least then we'd keep the police in line...

By Mala-dicta on Monday, July 5, 1999 - 01:34 am:

    All I know is if they are dead,they can,t hurt you or yours.

By Mala-dicta on Monday, July 5, 1999 - 01:38 am:

    All I know is if they are dead,they can,t hurt you
    or yours.

By J on Monday, July 5, 1999 - 01:40 am:

    Sorry,note time,am tanked.

By Nate on Monday, July 5, 1999 - 05:35 am:

    fuck that. i kill you because i think you are guilty. you are not? big fucking deal. I AM THE FUCKING LAW. you die. end of story.

    i don't trust ANY HUMAN RFUCKING BEING WITH MY LIFE> i am the only one who gets to deal with this bag of tricks, and sorry, but iam hardly equipped for this mission.

    the death [penalty is STUPID BARBARIC and BACKWARDS. who are we to say who lives and dies? much less, why would anyone in their right mind give the GOVERNMENT, who FUCKS us on a DAILY BASIS the ability to KILL anyone of us AS THEIR COURtS DEcREe?

    RC, why would you want to give a bunch of bribed and blackmailed b\euorocrats this kind of power? c'mon, you'[re smarter than this.

    it doesn't matter if ytou\\ or yours have been killed, raped or mutilated. the deathj penalty, in the hands of those who choose to oppress us, is just fucking demented.

    sorry if i blurr my words throug halcholal. i'm fucked, but i still know wha'ts right. LIFE is right, death by the hand of the lying evil incorporated is just plain stupid.

    might as well lie down adn die now.

By Gee on Monday, July 5, 1999 - 06:36 am:

    Wow. Passionate when drunk.

    I think you were a Ray in a former life.

By R.C. on Monday, July 5, 1999 - 03:05 pm:

    Antigone: The cops shoot way too many innocent folks for my liking. Esp. black & brown folks.

    But I also know that most females wdn't have the moxy to use a gun even if they had one. To be useful/a gun has to be loaded & handy. Like on yr nighttable or under yr mattress. So the perp overpowers some poor woman in her bedroom one nite becuz her gun in hidden so her kids won't find it. Ergo/that gun was useless to her.

    Or worse/some single mom who's had her house broken into before gets a gun/leaves it in her nightstand drawer/& her kid finds it & blows his sister away.

    It happens EVERY DAY in America. Arming all civillians is NOT the answer.

    I'm all for due process. But I feel the 'process' needs to be streamlined in capital cases. That's all. And if they fucking confess -- let them go before a judge to pronounce their sentence/then 'em to the firing squad.

    The state of FL. is scheduled to release 200-odd prisoners in Oct./due to the change in the time- off-for-good-behavior law. They posted some of their names in the paper last week. Three were rapists.

    I am a single woman who lives alone/goes shopping alone/to the movies alone/takes walks at nite alone (s'too hot during the day). My bedrooms are all on the 2nd floor. But the rear of my condo faces thick woods. And you can burn thru the screens on my lanais (i.e. porches) w/a cigarette.

    And I am tired of ALWAYS having to watch my fucking back. Of ALWAYS having to be on my guard when I'm away from home. Of ALWAYS wearing clothing that won't be construed an an invitation to interact w/me. Of ALWAYS having my game face on when I'm out in public/so nobody thinks I look like a vic. It's tiresome & scary & sad to have to always have to be on the defensive. And yeah/I know that having a man prolly wdn't solve that. Then he'd have to always be in quasi-warrior mode when we were out together/which is no fun for a guy. But it wd be nice to just be able to relax & feel like a female & be flirty & sexy & wear high heels when I felt like it becuz there was someone else looking out for me. Becuz I wdn't have to worry that being out alone in a pr. of stilettos cd make the difference btwn getting seriously hurt by some sicko or getting away in one piece.

    Muthafuckers like this SCARE me. None of them are murderers YET. (Altho' they are planning to release 2 murders in the bunch.) But that's just a matter of time.

    If the 2 convicts who shot people down during robberies had been sentenced to death & executed/instead of being slated for early release/that wd be 2 less nightmares for me.

    Ahhh, Nate. I can think of several more pleasurable uses for all that drunken passion...

By Antigone on Monday, July 5, 1999 - 06:36 pm:

    Yep, the cops do shoot too many innocent people. My point exactly. It's what happens when the power of life and death is given to people. People are emotional. People are irrational. People fuck up. So, innocent people will die, either by mistake or on purpose. If that's ok with you, then more power to ya. But it will always be a consequence of "gresing the gears" of death penalty judgements. I'd no sooner give Judge Bubba Testosterone the power over life and death than give it to Jack the Rapist. They're both out of control.

    But, then again, we may not have to worry about testosterone for very much longer. We seem to be forcing the issue with mother nature quite nicely.

By R.C. on Monday, July 5, 1999 - 07:05 pm:

    Frogs & toads don't worry me much. Not when there are still millions of unplanned preganaices in America every year.

    When that shit finally filters up the food chain to humans/it'll be a blessing in disguise. But I'm a ZPG supporter/pro-choice & very pro-adoption /so ya gotta take what I say on such matters w/the proverbial grain of salt.

By Antigone on Monday, July 5, 1999 - 09:43 pm:

    I hear ya, RC. It's a radical thought (or maybe not, for a beta male such as myself) but maybe eliminating some maleness from the species may not be such a bad idea. (Wait, maybe I'd be considered an alpha male, then. Waitress! More estrogen, please!) But when the shit hits the fan it could very well be NPG instead of ZPG because of the PCB's. It's a TLA SNAFU...

By R.C. on Tuesday, July 6, 1999 - 12:38 am:

    I'm all for as much maleness as I can get. I just hate the male proclivity towards wanton violence & sexual predation.

    But what's TLA?

    And fear not -- SOME of us will always be able to reproduce. Mainly poor dark folks. It's the only advantage we have.

    Years ago/I started a SF/satire short story on that very topic. Abt how/50 yrs. in the future/the holes in the ozone layer lead to massive/lethal skin cancers among Whites. And dark-skinned Blackfolks became the sexual icons in America & Europe/featured on all the magazine covers & t.v. shows & in the movies/becuz they are the only one's who are able to reproduce. Even thru in-vitro. The story opened w/a bidding war for the rights to Jimmy Walker's offspring w/a mixed-race Miss America/in an era when the pagent exists solely as a breeding-rights preliminary for rich/infertile White couples. And the judges end up disqualifying the winner in favor of a dark-skinned Whoopi Goldberg-type character/becuz she's got a better chance of breeding.

    I only wrote abt 12 pgs. of it.

By Antigone on Wednesday, July 7, 1999 - 02:35 am:

    TLA - Three Letter Acronym

By Asshole on Wednesday, July 7, 1999 - 01:06 pm:

    term license agreement.

By Waffleboy on Thursday, July 8, 1999 - 07:44 pm:


    another bloody execution in FLA,

    there is another scheduled for Friday, yeehaw!!!! folks, bodies are a burnin in Florida!!!!!!!!!

    We have good ole Jeb Bush (son of that idiot George Sr. and brother to George Jr.) to thank for the speed up in deaths

By Jim aka PajamaBoy on Friday, July 9, 1999 - 08:02 am:

    Waffledude-- Can I hug you for that last comment? Ronald Reagan may have been a nincompooop, but Mr. Bush, Sr. was/is more of a clodhopper than Mr. "I don't recall," could ever be.

By Waffles on Friday, July 9, 1999 - 11:12 am:

    of course you can, but lets remind the folks WHO was involved with the S&L, good ole Georgie Jr. how quickly we forget, but he got a pardon from his pop at the time anyway, never mind his wife tried to come back from PAris recently with $$$$$ of merchandise and only claimed like a couple of hundred bucks, those FUCKS the Bush's CANNOT be trusted, it's no surprise his campaign grossed th most $$$ so far,

By Jim aka PajamaBoy on Friday, July 9, 1999 - 06:27 pm:

    I'm still a Liddy Dole man myself. I just cannot stomach the Gore Machine.

By WaffleDUDE on Friday, July 9, 1999 - 07:10 pm:

    they all make me vomit

By Two on Wednesday, May 2, 2001 - 03:52 pm:

    I know this guy personally, my husband used to work with him. I'm not making excuses for what he did, it was wrong! But to know him you would see that he is not capable of thinking this revenge up on his own. He's not smart enough! I think what he did is sick and he needs to die. If it were one of my kids he wouldn't live to go to trial.

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