under God

sorabji.com: Words: under God

By sarah on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 10:41 pm:

    indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all.

    the athiests don't want to recognize this nation as being "under God". the jehova's witnesses won't pledge alliegance to anything other than god.

    i personally don't see how "under God" is objectionable. the pledge of alliegance was written in 1892 by a baptist minister. he probably meant "under God" literally, in the traditional judeo christian way. i am not a baptist, let alone a christian, nor am i an athiest; but i feel like i can pledge my alliegance to the flag of the united states of america, and to the republic for which it stands regardless if i accept or reject or feel ambivalent about the notion of god.

By dave. on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 01:02 am:

    from about.com

    The Pledge of Allegiance

    I pledge allegiance to the Flag,
    of the United States of America
    and to the Republic for which it stands,
    One Nation, under God
    Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for All.


    A Brief History of the Pledge of Allegiance

    The original Pledge of Allegiance, "I pledge allegiance to my flag and the Republic for which it stands -- One nation indivisible -- with liberty and justice for all," was written in September of 1892 by Francis Bellamy for "The Youth's Companion" magazine in Boston. The phrase was printed on leaflets and sent to schools throughout the United States.

    The first organized use of the Pledge of Allegiance came on Oct. 12, 1892, when some 12 million American school children recited it to commemorate the 400-year anniversary of Columbus' voyage.

    In 1923, the first National Flag Conference in Washington D.C. voted to change the words "my flag" to "the Flag of the United States of America."

    Congress officially recognized the Pledge of Allegiance in 1942, but in 1943, the Supreme Court ruled that public school students could not be forced to recite it.

    The words "under God" were added in 1954 by then President Eisenhower, who stated at the time, "In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."

    from someotherwebsite.com

    The original Pledge was recited while giving a stiff, uplifted right-hand salute, criticized and discontinued during WWII. The words "my flag" were changed to "the flag of the United States of America" because it was feared that the children of immigrants might confuse "my flag" for the flag of their homeland. The phrase "Under God," was added by Congress and President Eisenhower in 1954 at the urging of the Knights of Columbus.

    it is completely religious. it became, in spirit and fact, a prayer when those words were added.

    "under god", liberty and justice for all or only for all americans? doesn't this same almighty god's influence extend beyond united states borders and are we not then obligated to extend liberty and justice to all? the pledge states that this is god's will or at least the koc's interpretation of god's will. i wonder how, among others, citizens of iraq would respond to this notion. what a rascal that god is.

    it's indoctrination crap and utterly un-american to the core. liberty, indeed.

By dave. on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 01:10 am:

By semillama on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 08:45 am:

    Actually the original intent of the pledge of
    allegiance, from what I've read, was pretty
    much what was in the link above, except that I
    read that it was intended as an international
    peace pledge and that anybody from any
    country could recite it on a day devoted to
    peace. Nations were supposed to display
    thier flag witha white border that day to
    symbolize their support for it.

    It's funny that "under god" got added but the
    word equality never did. I guess we know
    which word is more dangerous.

By Nate on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 12:35 pm:

    one nation, under vishnu

    does that sound wrong? how many christians would object to that one?

    if you're hindu, are you not an american?

By The Watcher on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 02:13 pm:

    Get a copy of Red Skelton's recording of the Pledge.

    He is much more eloquent on this subject then I could ever be.

By Antigone on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 02:30 pm:

    It's pretty obvious that this is being hyped to the four winds because this is an election year.

    I, for one, am all for a state sponsored religion. Religion should be regulated. Religious schools want government money from vouchers? Fine. They should be regulated as tightly as the public schools, then.

    God, I love them big government conservatives.

By pez on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 04:19 pm:

    if god is all things...

    i pledge alligiance to the flag of the united states of america. and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under me, indevisible, with liberty and justice for all.

    i like that.

    have you ever said "amen" at the end? i did when i was little, because pledging in school did feel like church.

    the church of state, the religion of state, there is no god only presidents. presence. consensus. corporate kingdoms enslaving the land of the free, and disenfranchising the brave.

By heather on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 05:45 pm:

    i don't remember ever pledging in school

    i'm sure they wouldn't in my elementary, because the school was 'christian' and there would be no pledging to anyone but god

    how funny

By wisper on Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 02:11 am:

    i think Craig Killborn's response said it best the other night:

    "Go back to RUSSIA you rational bastards!"

By dave. on Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 04:03 am:

    see, this is where the liberal left fails. conservatives would focus on the obvious constitutional contradiction like a laser if it suited their needs. liberals are too accomodating to make a effective stand because they use their powers of reason, seeing it from all perspectives, rather than taking the close-minded, easy way out.

    it scares me that there are so many people out there whose reality is based on fairy tales. one of my biggest customers, during a conversation the other day pointed at this cheesy needlepoint plaque that had this gay pastel ark surrounded by the words, "plan ahead. noah built the ark before the flood." i wanted to scream, "THAT NEVER HAPPENED! THERE WAS NO FLOOD AND THERE WAS NO ARK, YOU FUCKING SIMPLETON! JESUS WAS'NT THE SON OF GOD ANY MORE THAN I AM. AND I'M NOT. THERE WAS NO DAVID AND GOLIATH, NO BURNING BUSH, NO PARTING OF THE SEAS OR WALKING ON THE WATER!! IT NEVER HAPPENED! IT'S A FUCKING STORY. IT'S CROWD CONTROL. GROW UP!"

    so, yeah, it always surprises me to learn that people are religious. kinda makes me sad that they also vote.

By Czarina on Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 04:12 am:

    God and America are not synonomyous.God wasn't even mentioned in the constitution.Not until the first ammendment.

    Didn't folks come over here,from far off lands,and start a new nation,cause they didn't like their governments telling them which god to worship?Wasn't religious freemdom,part of what built this country?

    Nope,I've always felt that God shouldn't be mentioned in the pledge,its incongruent with the birth of this nation.

    Worship who/what you will,that is what freedom and choice are all about.But don't be specifying some sort of god/idol in the pledge,they are just two completely different things.

By dave. on Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 04:30 am:

    god shouldn't be mentioned because god isn't real. physics and will rule the universe.

By Nate on Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 02:34 pm:

    physics is phucked.

    it's all extrapolation and guesswork.

By Antigone on Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 06:39 pm:

    Ain't it, though?

    That's why I got a BA in psychology. At least psychologists admit that they're guessing.

By heather on Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 07:34 pm:

    ah. i see, now. i see.

    it seems to me that psychologists only admit years later


    physics is only one rule [only partially known]

    people lived a long time ago and you don't know what they did or didn't do and there have been miracles even if they aren't the ones people know about

    kinda makes me sad when people only believe in, what is it- what they see?

By Antigone on Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 08:05 pm:

    Well, if you've got to choose between years later or never...

    And, very few people only believe in what they see. Most who say that can't see that they believe in things they don't see. Those that say it and mean it are the insane solopsists who aren't sure the world still exists when they close their eyes.

    Ever seen an atom? A few people have, and then only through fancy instruments not commonly available to the rest of us. Lots of people believe in them, though.

By dave. on Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 08:29 pm:

    i'm not talking about any particular flavor of physics. i mean the cause-and-effect of things bouncing around off of other things. if you wanna call that god, i'll accept that but i completely doubt that god had any interest in the doings of a handful of tribes running around in the desert thousands of years ago. it's just incredibly naive to believe that. much more plausible is that a few clever individuals, through sleight of hand and parlor tricks, started the whole thing because they figured it out that they could scare people into doing their work for them. all they needed was a good enough threat.

    fuck. why am i on the internet debating the existence of god? how pathetic.

By Antigone on Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 08:35 pm:

    How gloriously pathetic!

    Rock on, dave.

By Czarina on Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 09:16 pm:

    I'm with Dave,on this one.

    Physics is merely math.
    Almost everything can be broken down mathmatically,if one knows how to set up the equation.

    No God,but I've always thought it was rather clever of our primative forbearers,to use clever,[mathmetical], tricks to scare others into doing their will.

    "The Gods have spoken to ME!They have empowered ME to speak for them! You will see, I will make the sun go away tomorrow during the daytime,so you will not doubt MY power!"

    And,by jove,the sun DID go away the next day.During a dandy little eclipse,which was calculated,mathmatically,by the clever priests.

    And all became BELIEVERS. Heh heh heh. I've always liked that.Sounds like something I would have thought of.Heh heh heh.

    There is clear evidence in when man first started thinking that perhaps there was more than himself.Up untill that point in time,basically,there were no "burials",if one died they were just left and the rest of the clan moved on.Then,all of a sudden,burials started.With dandy little trinkets,that the bereaved thought might assist the deceased,in an afterlife.

    Merely evolution,mans brain became more "advanced",[for lack of a better term].Also,the bible is a great indicator of man's "wanna believe",attitude. Look at the old testament,it was harsh,an eye for an eye,type of belief,lots of wives,etc.Civilation was young,uncultivated,harsh.BUT,as civilizations advanced,this omnipotent being,changed its mind??????????

    No more eye for an eye,no more multiple wives,God must be a pretty hip kinda being,to to go with the times!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    This concept is so incongruent with reality.Doesn't it seem like if there was an omnipotent being,he/she WOULD ALREADY know everything,and WOULDN'T have to be changing his mind,as time progressed?

    I rest my case.

By Nate on Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 09:40 pm:

    unfortunately, math only explains the universe when you whittle down your problems to the simplest possible. math does not explain complexity.

    and the universe is observably complex.

    ever hear of stephan wolfram? he's your jesus, dave. science is your christianity. newton is your god.

    and in the end, it's all just another line of bullshit to placate the masses.

By Antigone on Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 10:05 pm:

    Physics placates the masses. Great pun, d00d!

    I'm reading "A New Kind of Science" by Wolfram right now. If he's right, his take on cellular automata combined with genetic programming should enable us to crack the nature of the universe wide open in about 50 years. Ain't that kewl?

By Nate on Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 11:32 pm:

    i read the first few pages and then shelved it because of hell at work and the MBA reading taking over.

    even if he's wrong, his bibliography is longer than many books: his book has worth as a tool to realize new things to investigate further.

By sarah on Monday, July 1, 2002 - 01:45 am:

    i'm kinda with nate on this one.

    humans made up the concept of a lightyear. man-made tools "measure" "distance" between "galaxies". whatever. yadda yadda yadda the earth is flat etc.

By Czarina on Monday, July 1, 2002 - 03:18 am:

    Sarah,are you up?
    Send me your email addy.

By semillama on Monday, July 1, 2002 - 09:21 am:

    AH! Post-processualism!

By The Watcher on Monday, July 1, 2002 - 02:12 pm:

    The Universe is God's television.

    And, we are one of the comedies available for his viewing pleasure.

    He must be rolling on the floor with laughter. Or, we'd be cancelled by now.

By spunky on Monday, July 1, 2002 - 03:43 pm:

    As most of you know, I graduated from a christian school, hence my attempts for the past 12 years to shed the idiotic views and beliefs that I am infected with.

    I have come to beleive that organized religion, of any type is just a hoax, scam or tool used to control people.

    I do not beleive we crawled from the ocean and grew legs, but I do not doubt we evolved. We are still evolving, just not certain anymore about how the species originated.

    There HAS TO BE a race of being out there that are far more advanced then we.
    Maybe the icans and mayans and egyptians all saw these beings, and other races as well. Mankind has always had a way of attributing things they cannot explain to a "god".
    What's the answer you give little jimmy on why his mummie died?
    "It must have been god's will".
    "where did man, the earth and the heavens come from?"
    "God created all things".
    "who makes it rain?"
    "The sky spirits"
    "Where do the waves on an ocean come from?"
    "Triton creates the waves with his spear"
    etc etc etc

By Spider on Monday, July 1, 2002 - 03:59 pm:

    <<What's the answer you give little jimmy on why his mummie died?
    "It must have been god's will". >>

    Even if you're raising your kids in a devout household, you shouldn't say things like this.

    Jimmy's mom died because she was hit by a car, or because she had cancer, or because she hung herself. You should be straight with kids, and you should say "I don't know" when you really don't know.

By semillama on Monday, July 1, 2002 - 05:03 pm:

    Where's the fun in that?

    I plan on telling my kids the most outrageous
    lies possible. Mom can tell them the truth if
    she wants.

By Nate on Monday, July 1, 2002 - 06:55 pm:

    santa comes up through the toilet to eat children.

    man, my friend's nieces were terribly hard to potty-train for some reason.

By sarah on Monday, July 1, 2002 - 09:09 pm:

    it's not Post-processualism, it's epistemological anarchy.


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