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THIS IS A READ-ONLY ARCHIVE FROM THE SORABJI.COM MESSAGE BOARDS (1995-2016).

By patrick on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 12:52 pm:


By J on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 01:54 pm:

    Theres no stopping them,espeacially after 9/11,little by little,all our rights are being taken away.


By wisper on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 07:07 pm:

    for some reason i think the school vouchers thing is pretty good. At least some of the money COULD go to public schools, and who knows, they might surprise you. This could really bump-up the public schools, ya know.
    Of course for that to happen they would have to somehow get people to chose them over private schools... hey, it could happen.

    This doesn't scare me because i went to catholic school right up until college. Although i was baptised my parents chose to put me there not because they wanted me to learn the bible or wear a sexy uniform, but because it was the best school system. And although it turned me away from kilts for life, and into a bitter athiest for many years, if i had a kid i'd probably do it too. Better an athiest than an illiterate gang member, i always say.

    Of course this means nothing to you because catholic school isn't strictly private here, it's funding is given by people who decide to do so on their taxes. It's actually called the "Seperate School Board" So i guess you might call it public catholic school, since we have private schools too, some of which are not religious at all. Don't you have those? Private schools of no religion?


    My point is, who cares what religion the school is, as long as it's a good school. Kids get over religion pretty quick, especially if they can read beyond a 4th grade level....


By heather on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 07:32 pm:

    i pretty much agree with wisper [except for the part about kids getting over religion, i think it has a strong effect and luckily not all of it is negative]

    it's just subsidy for schools with some 'supply and demand' thrown in, patrick. sending the same amount of money into public schools would not make them substantially 'better' i would argue.

    it's just sad for kids with clueless parents, but there's a lot of sad stuff for kids with clueless parents.


By patrick on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 07:58 pm:

    i don't believe in monetarily punishing schools when there is a myriad of problems that could cause poor performance.

    it almost sounds nate-ian in the scary capitalist way. supply and demand.

    fuck that.

    vouchers will further seperate the divide between poor and rich. making the struggling schools worse and the good schools better.


By Nate on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 08:31 pm:

    vouchers allow poor children to go to private schools, dumbass.

    the seperation of church and state bit is crazy.

    tax dollars already go to religious institutions. religious organizations are given tax exempt status all the time, which is tax dollars going to relgious institutions.

    is it illegal for a welfare mom to tithe? unconstitutional?

    i agree about the drug testing, though.



By eri on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 09:24 am:

    I think I will probably get it for this, but I am getting used to it.

    I went to public school for high school and Catholic School for Jr High. I am not a Catholic. My parents put me into the Catholic school, because my mother used to attend the same public school I would have gone to and she didn't think it was safe when she went there, so she didn't want me going there. My father travelled for work all of the time and was never there and my mother was working for a Beverly Hills asshole who sexually harrassed her, so that they could afford a piece of shit termite infested house and to send me to this school.

    Now that I am a parent, I see things that really get me. In certain areas, where the public schools are SERIOUSLY lacking, I do agree with this option. I think about the education Hayley was getting in the public school system in Kansas City for example. I have talked to educators outside of Texas (we all know how much I love what they have done for her education here) to see if I was insane for thinking so poorly of Kansas City and found that the same problems I had in Kansas City and my complaints made sense to educators in other states as well (regarding teaching methods). The teachers there are severely undereducated. I would have given my left arm for an opportunity to put her in a Catholic School there, simply because it was a much better education. I couldn't afford it.

    If I were there I would do everything in my power to do that now.

    I am for the vouchers in areas where public education SUX, which it does there.

    When I started to read up on how this voucher thing worked it really wouldn't have helped us. It doesn't give me money to help with tuition directly. Instead it would give me $2,300 in a tax refund with receipts from tuition already paid. If I don't have the money now, then it isn't going to do any good to get a bigger tax refund, because I still couldn't pay the tuition up front anyways. In our case, it would be futile and useless.

    I do have to say, that in Texas most of the people I know who have put their children in private schools have pulled them and put them into public schools because the kids education wasn't any better. All but one parent I know has done this and the one that didn't is a teacher at the private school, so his son is with him during the day.

    I think our children need opportunities to get a quality education when the school system is failing, but that isn't the case here. Even if they handed me a plateful of vouchers to pay for private school today, I wouldn't do it, because my daughter is getting a quality education where she is at. I just wish I could have said that last year or two years ago.


    They did random drug testing when I was in high school and it really was no big deal. No invasion of privacy that offended us in any way. The only complaint that we had was that the tests needed to be better and not get cold medicine mixed up with something illegal. I flip flop on this issue.


By patrick on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 11:59 am:

    "vouchers allow poor children to go to private schools, dumbass"


    thats one angle. please nate.

    you make it sound as if ALLLLL the poor children will be saved by vouchers. Which you and i know DAMN well won't happen. You sound just like Bush when he says "This decision clears the way for other innovative school choice programs so that no child in America will be left behind."

    Please.


    If my tax dollars are funding private schools then where is the accountability? Who is monitoring the standards? The curriculum? Are they subject to the elected school board mandates? No...they are private schools. Are private schools concerned with profit? It certainly appears that way...should schools be about profit? *shrugs*

    There's a plethora of conflicts of interest here beyond the church and state matter. To be honest thats at the bottom of my list of concerns with this matter.

    Forcing public schools to compete is in no one's best interest. They shouldn't have to compete with private run schools. In the end, the kids are the ones who suffers. As we all know from our capitalist society competition can bring out the worst in institutions, pushing them to cut corners to appear better on paper.

    It just doesnt make any god damn sense to divert funds. Why not improve what we have? What about the kids who don't or can't go to other schools? Why can't public schools adopt methods that would make them as good or better than private schools.


    This matter doesn't SOLVE the problem of bad schools it only makes it worse dumbass.


By Nate on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 12:30 pm:

    "If my tax dollars are funding private schools then where is the accountability? Who is monitoring the standards? The curriculum? Are they subject to the elected school board mandates?"

    uh, this is pretty obvious, patty-- the parents. see a lot of yugos on the road? why is that? because they suck, so people won't buy them.

    you, of all people, want to trust the government to establish and maintain values of education?

    for-profit schools tend to provide better education for our youth. why? because they are more accountable. they have to earn their money, instead of having it thrown at them.

    it does make sense to divert funds. it's called cutting your losses. if public schools aren't performing, why? is it because the teachers suck, because we don't pay teachers enough? is it because there isn't money for construction paper? i can teach anyone with a library card to read, and library cards are free.

    vouchers allow parents to find the best education available to their children. parents provide the over


By dave. on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 12:53 pm:

    "If my tax dollars are funding private schools then where is the accountability?"

    private schools are still accountable to the superintendant of public instruction or whatever that office is called in other states.


By patrick on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 12:59 pm:

    "you, of all people, want to trust the government to establish and maintain values of education?"

    I want our elected officials and education professionals to maintain values of education, not private entities accountable to the profit ledger. For profit doesnt make students the #1 priority.

    It reminds me of the article i read and posted about not-for-profit hospitals having less deaths that for profit hospitals. While the data has mixed implications....one thing that seemed obvious was that for profit hospitals are more concerned with the bottom than providing solid healthcare.


    Public educational institutions earn their money now in many districts. I know in CA this is indeed the case. They lose funds if test scores don't reach a certain level. So we can and do make public schools more accountable as it is.


    "it does make sense to divert funds. it's called cutting your losses. if public schools aren't performing, why? is it because the teachers suck, because we don't pay teachers enough? is it because there isn't money for construction paper? i can teach anyone with a library card to read, and library cards are free."


    we can't afford to approach it this way because education is not a business, i don't beleive in approaching it like a coporation because the focus becomes less about education and more about efficiency and bottom lines.

    vouchers are not 100% and 100% of our school children will not be 'saved'. If teachers are underpaid and it can be demonstrated that education will improve with higher teachers' salaries, lets fight for that....last and solid solutions.
    Lets address the problems instead of just throwing our hands in the air, saying "fuck it" here's some money, go somewhere else.


By Nate on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 01:29 pm:

    efficiency means getting the most education for the least cost. isn't that the goal?

    why don't you see this as a way to address the problem?

    if you develop a process that makes snickers at a greatly reduced cost, but the snickers come out tasting like goat feces, who's going to buy snickers?

    if there is a sufficent choice of schools, then parents are going to choose the school that will best educate their child. if the private schools are what you say, focused on the bottom line to the detremint of the child, then parents will leave their kids in public school.

    your arguements that vouchers are wrong because private schools aren't as good as public schools doesn't hold water. vouchers don't force parents to put their kids into private schools. vouchers give the parents the choice.

    the fact that you even have this argument is an obvious indicator that public schools aren't working.

    your ideas about how capitalism works is another indicator.


By patrick on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 02:03 pm:

    vouchers give parents a choice at *tax payers expense*. i believe in choice, just not at taxpayers expense.

    I don't see it as a way to address the problem because of what will be left behind.

    I believe public schools will become worse. of course every parent wants the best education for their children. If private schools are so great then why doesnít everyone make the switch? If everyone starts making the switch why didnít they just use that money and integrate public and private to begin with.

    Does money make better education? You seem to imply thats its all a matter of money, and while im not necessarily disagreeing with that lets see if there is a better way to use that money instead of creating a bigger divide with the havs and have nots.

    if as you say this gives empowerment to the parents...what about the parents who are products of public education? Do you trust them to make the right choice? Who do you trust more, the parents or the educators to decide whatís best for the education of the children? I dunno, thatís a tough call.

    "the fact that you even have this argument is an obvious indicator that public schools aren't working."

    come on now....thatís an absurd thing to say you elitist capitalist pig.


By The Watcher on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 02:06 pm:

    You have forgotten one thing about vouchers.

    The money given to the private schools is actually less than what the government spends per child in public school.

    This way everybody wins. Suposedly the child in private school gets a better education at less cost. And, the child in public school does not suffer because there are fewer children in his class but more money per student.


By patrick on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 02:30 pm:

    if thats indeed the case then why can't we adopt reform that models public education after private education instead of shuffling funds from the public sector to the private sector and violating church and state seperation?


By Nate on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 02:45 pm:

    "vouchers give parents a choice at *tax payers expense*. i believe in choice, just not at taxpayers expense. "

    so you're saying that the government shouldn't fund education?

    this is money slotted for education of one child. if the child gets better educated in a non-public school, then the taxpayers are getting more bang for their buck.

    you're argument doesn't make sense.

    i'm not suggesting that money makes for better education. that's your argument. i think the largest flaw of public education is the beaurocracy. wasted money is part of it (do you know how much school officials get paid? it's obscene.)

    "come on now....thatís an absurd thing to say you elitist capitalist pig. "

    oink.






By patrick on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 03:04 pm:

    "so you're saying that the government shouldn't fund education?"

    absolutely not and you know thats not what im saying.

    Im just tossing the idea around that $$=better schools. Im not really sure of that.

    "then the taxpayers are getting more bang for their buck"

    you're absolutely right...this line of argument is absolutely correct that the rest of society will benefit in the long run from the better education.

    so why not model public schools after private schools? you're trading one beaurocracy for another. To think private schools are impervious to beaurocracy is poop, you know that.


By eri on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 04:30 pm:

    "vouchers are not 100% and 100% of our school children will not be 'saved'."

    This statement really disturbed me. No one here has a 100% answer for every child. No one here has the "perfect" plan. While we are all debating what the "best" thing to do is, our children are being hurt and failed by the public school system in MANY areas. I've seen it.

    Until the time when someone comes up with the "rightest" thing to do or the "best" thing to do, why aren't we doing SOMETHING? By the time the "right" answer is figured out we will all be retired and laughing at what our stupid kids are saying on these boards.

    The kids need help NOW, not later. They need help while we are still looking for the best answer. By the time we have figured it out it will be too late for too many.

    At this point I am most concerned with the kids and thier futures.

    There is no 100%, but right now we aren't even at 50% so let's do SOMETHING. The kids deserve it.


By patrick on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 04:40 pm:

    well nate i can sympathize especially when you read this over lunch.

    Grey Davis is such a fuckin cock.


By The Watcher on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 06:19 pm:

    That is not news to anyone.

    It happens in any inner city school system.


By Nate on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 06:26 pm:

    grey davis is a fucking cock. he's the architypical two faced democrat politician.

    (democrat politician different from a democrat, which refers to the sheep who believe in the good that democrat politicians spout.)


By patrick on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 06:52 pm:

    well yeah whatever watcher but this is where i live and pay extra taxes so its of special concern to me.


    the thing that drives my up the fucking wall is that the litigation funds that Cockmouth has spent to fight the ACLU suit could have been spent towards books and A/C units etc.

    Thats what drives me nuts...

    its like the local Metro Transit Authority here in LA spending millions in litigation money to fight a federal mandate to buy more clean air buses when the fucking millions could have been used to just buy the god damn buses and appease the feds.

    Fucking makes no god damn sense.


By heather on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 08:29 pm:

    it does to the friendly neighborhood law firms and their political friends


By dave. on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 09:13 pm:

    "Public educational institutions earn their money now in many districts. I know in CA this is indeed the case. They lose funds if test scores don't reach a certain level. So we can and do make public schools more accountable as it is."

    i see this as a bad thing. it's like the runt being driven away by the mother and sibs. darwinism on purpose is barbarian and fascist. it's exactly why i don't agree with unfettered capitalism. capitalism is too reptilian for a critical thinking mammal like myself to embrace. fuck it or fight it. baby, can't we all just cuddle?


By Margret on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 11:37 pm:

    ick.


By dave. on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 11:52 pm:

    aww, baby, don't be like that.


By Margret on Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 12:18 am:

    ewww, seriously, what is UP? YOU cuddle the fucking world...i just want to be left alone until i say otherwise. you can all fuck and fight each other into oblivion, or even cuddle each other unto lesbian bed death, me and the meatmobile are staying AWAY.


By dave. on Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 12:53 am:

    that's the spirit!


By Antigone on Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 05:05 pm:

    God, what is UP with you people who just want to be left alone? Can't you leave me out of your whine fest? If you really want to be LEFT ALONE, then just GO AWAY.


By semillama on Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 05:21 pm:

    hear hear!


By Czarina on Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 03:52 am:

    Teachers need more money.

    There's no way in fucking hell,I'd put up with what they do,for the salaries they make.

    These are people in control of the worlds future,[by their ability/inability to educate our spawn],and we can't pay them a decent salary.

    Untill that happens,teaching is not going to attract some of the brightest minds.[this is,of course,a BROAD generalization]

    Teaching is not a particularily lucrative living,so many bright people,who might like to teach,have to be more practical,and choose career's that will afford their lifestyles.

    Whats wrong with us,that we can't pay these VERY important people more?

    The voucher thing has never been very effective in the past.We'll see this time.

    I have one in private school,and one in public.The curriculum is more stringent in the private schools.And the rules are stricter.

    Interestingly,generally speaking,private school teachers are paid LESS than public school educators.Which raises the issue of,"Hmmmm,why would these teachers take less money than public school educators?"

    Food for thought.


By patrick on Monday, July 1, 2002 - 11:49 am:

    i was listening to an article on npr over the weekend...they were citing that in fact vouchers didn't necessarily improve children's academic performance...even though there were modest gains amongst minority children...the gains from whitey's kids was little to none.

    which is exactly what you'd expect...the kids who generally get the short end of the stick could do well from vouchers...but those mostly likely to use them (who parents are educated enough to take advantage of the system) are the suburban upper middle class white families who don't need the advantage.


By heather on Monday, July 1, 2002 - 02:12 pm:

    academic performance is one thing- those no. 2 pencil tests don't test very much, though

    my parents found a private school because i came home swearing in first grade

    there are other things you learn in school bedsides the three r's, and if i were a parent i think i would be more concerned about those


By patrick on Monday, July 1, 2002 - 02:15 pm:

    kids dont swear in private school?


By heather on Monday, July 1, 2002 - 03:22 pm:

    in my elementary school, no, they didn't


By Czarina on Wednesday, July 3, 2002 - 11:17 pm:

    God forbid! That would have a child suspended!!!!!

    Thats why I pay private tuition,I want my children to behave,and learn while in school,not be rebel rousers and hellions.

    The only reason my son isn't still in private school,is because I am teaching him a lesson about consequences.

    I didn't want to,but had no choice. He is ADHD,and just has no motivation. Every year about 2 weeks before school ends,he would freak out and start crying because he was gonna fail.[trust me,we have given MORE help than any child deserves]But he just wouldn't do the work, so he was gonna fail,again, so we talked the Catholic school into passing him,if we moved him to public school.[the currilicum is much easier]This was difficult for me to do,because part of the reason I have them in private school,is because of the environment,[much stricter], so it was hard for me to move him,and hard for him to leave his friends, but thats the consequences.


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