fly to Seattle Why I oughta...: fly to Seattle

By Sarah on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 05:07 pm:

    and take part in the WTO protests! hot damn, this is good shit. i'm nearly starting to have faith in humanity again.

By Nate on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 05:40 pm:

    woo hoo!

    i agree with sarah.

By Patrick on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 05:47 pm:

    does anyone know of a website that has some sort of doctrine of which they are fighting for? I understand the basic premis of the protests, but i would like to get specifics on the WTO's actions that have caused this uproar.

By Rhiannon on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 05:58 pm:

    Who are WTO?

By Rhiannon on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 06:01 pm:

    Oh, the World Trade Organization. What are the protests about?

By Lucy Phurre on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 06:07 pm:

    The way it works is that the WTO more or less exists to make it easier for corporations to move to the countries with the lowest labor & environmental standards.

    I have lots of stuff on it, but I'll have to fuck with the formatting before I can post it in a legible form.

    I'll track down some links too.

By ______ on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 07:55 pm:

    wto protesters are pathetic. it's just another party. wto-stock '99. what a bunch of idiots. nobody's going to listen to them outside. they need to get some representatives inside and be active in the discussion. all this "activist" shit is just another oppoptunity for the kiddies to get laid.

    protesterdude: like, the wto sucks.

    protesterchick: i know! totally! isn't this great?

    dude: yeah, cos like, the air and stuff is like, so important to us all.

    chick: oh, i agree. corporations are evil.

    dude: free mumia.

    chick: god, you are so cool! what are you doing after the protest?

    dude: hangin' out.

    chick: here's my cell phone #, call me later. i have to go. i told my friend, alicia, i'd meet her at starbucks. call me, ok? promise?

    dude: all right. later.

By Sarah on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 08:06 pm:

    seattle's mayor paul schell just set a cerfew for the city from 7pm until dawn. he has also declared a civil emergency!

By Patrick on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 08:15 pm:


By Isolde on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 09:15 pm:

    Lucy, please feel free to add to this list. It's just a starting block.
    Basically, these guys protest all noble causes. You need to go past the first few pages, but once you find the part about the WTO, it's really informative.
    The only real news not really, actually--but they do present a clear idea of the protests, etc.
    Because I'm a fair kind of person.
    Not a whole lot of links...but somewhere to start. Try searching here. Google's really good.

By Isolde on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 09:17 pm:

    By the way: Fuck the Mayor! Civil emergency my ass! More like a capitalist emergency!!!

By Agatha on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 09:20 pm:

    i think some of the protesters actually have valid points, but maybe sixty percent of them are just wanting a piece of the action. sarah, come on down. i'll go hang with you.

By Lucy Phurre on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 09:23 pm:

    ____: Whether or not all of the protesters have an adequately pure mindset (and I know a hell of a lot more of them than you do, and most of them are serious about social change), they do put pressure on the US government and on corporations.
    Isolde, Thank you for the links.
    Gotta go. My cab's here.

By cyst on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 09:32 pm:

    seattle activists are funny.

    I was there for the gulf war and rodney king verdict protests.

    I was headed out with some friends. they were going to the rodney king thing and I was going home to get my cat to take to the vet. I stopped waiting for them, though, when it became clear that krystal was not going to protest anything until she got her waterproof mascara on perfect.

By mistaswine on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 09:43 pm:

    god damn.

    you don't see images like that streaming across the vid too often. those people shut that city down. tv shot from right outside my old downtown apartment building showed throngs of people filling the streets. looks like a thin line between drunk and righteous.
    it'll be interesting to see what happens when the curfew drops and the national guard rolls in. i bet it all gets really messy really quick. like within the next 45 minutes.

    i keep thinking that if the protests were happening in NYC (and had the same effect on manhattan that they're having on seattle), giuliani would be orchestrating the kind of brutal spectacle america hasn't seen since chicago '68.

    but of course that would never happen.
    if the WTO conference had been held in NYC, nobody would have cared.

By _____ on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 10:01 pm:

    doing the hippy dance and smashing windows and being ineffectual pests will only ensure that their opinions will NOT be taken seriously by the proper entities. again, who are they trying to impress: the world leaders or that cute dude/chick with the hemp togs and the fashion dreads. at this point i could rant about trustafarians and vegans and all that bull and what a luxury those ideals are and what an insult they are to people who can't afford to actually choose what it is they eat or how they want to live their lives but i've never really been one to rant and i'm not gonna start now.

By Isolde on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 10:37 pm:

    I don't have a TV. I wish I could see what's going on many of my friends are up there right now. I'd be very pissed to have something happen to them. Seattle itself is debateable. I'm really proud of those people for shutting the city down, but what I think is better is seeing activists for all causes get together. Everyone is there...animal rights, human rights, labor rights, anarchists, whatever. That's what I like. It's a huge demonstartion of people saying what they think.

By Sarah on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 11:23 pm:

    Dave, what does the wto protest have to do with trustafarian hippies?

By ____ on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 11:26 pm:

    don't fuck with my stereotypes!

By Sarah on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 11:33 pm:

    shut up and play scrabble.

By Isolde on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 11:54 pm:

    (Aside: Have you ever played Sex Scrabble? It's more fun than it should be.)
    Anyone know what's up in Seattle? I'm down here hiding berefit of a TV and can't find any by the minute updates online.

By Agatha on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 01:04 am:

    lucy, just out of curiosity:

    what makes you think that you know more protesters than _________? just curious.

    i have to say that i find you to be the queen of blanket statements. what an obnoxious thing to say.

By _____ on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 01:33 am:

    the protesters are all fornicating. the rioters have been chased up to broadway by the police.

By Isolde on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 02:13 am:

    Let's see...I know...around 30. I live in one of those kinds of places. 30 is a pretty small percent of the protestors, I suppose...

By Sarah on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 03:17 am:

    i know 6 protesters. none of them are hippies and five of them work in unions and all of them are over the age of 38.

    i have no idea if any of them drink starbucks.

By Soozie creamcheese on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 03:42 am:

By Gee on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 03:47 am:


    Is it true that the mayor of nyc had all the homeless folks "moved" out of the city?

By cyst on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 07:37 am:


    I heard he paid canada to take them.

By Nate on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 12:03 pm:

    someone quickly describe sex scrabble.

    something like 65K people protested the WTO yesterday in seattle, the number of vandals was in the 100's. a very small percentage.

    the swedish wto guy (what do they call them? delegates?) said that the fact that so many people came out and that they were successful in delaying the start of the conference made an impact on the delegates.

    in other words "fuck you all, but nice try."

    the WTO is basically trying to keep up with international trade. i heard someone liken it to a guy being run out of town standing tall and marching to make it look like he was leading a parade.

    the problem is that they have the opportunity to set up rules and guidelines that would be in the best interest of the people, but they're ignoring it.

    ignoring is probably not the right word.

By Agatha on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 12:13 pm:

    they did make an impact, definitely. today they are totally shut down, however. last night was a fucking nightmare.

By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 12:17 pm:

    Agatha (joining in on the defense of all white males, right or wrong, against Lucy the Evil Oppressor):
    "what makes you think you know more protesters...{yada yada yada, pity party for ___}"

    Let's start with the first question.
    I went to my first march on Washington when I was 6 and went to peace vigils before that.
    I grew up in the Left, in a very politically active community. My parents' friends were regularly doing social justice work in Guatemala or doing time for civil disobedience.
    Since being in California, I have gotten in touch with the activist community here.
    _____ is pretty right wing, and is quoting from any of hundreds of right-wing articles opposing citizen activism. So, what, he read Rush Limbaugh's book? This enables him to understand why people got involved? He doesn't sound like somebody who would spend a lot of time in the activist community, (unless, of course, he's a narc)
    And before you jump down my throat (and on the bandwagon... can we say "sheep", boys and girls?), the only blanket assumption I'm making there is that people don't usually hang out with people they don't like.

By _____ on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 12:22 pm:

    you moron.

By Nate on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 12:23 pm:

    holy shit. it's the messiah!

By Nate on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 12:24 pm:

    oh, not you dave.

By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 12:25 pm:

    Oh, and here's WTO stuff:
    This is Peninsula Peace and Justice Center's WTO page.
    And they are evidently not ineffectual hippies.
    "Peninsula Peace and Justice Center has been one of the most effective
    of the activist organizations" - Noam Chomsky

    They are organizing a noviolent protest against the police brutality going on there today.
    "Wednesday, December 1, gather starting at 4:30 PM
    Office of Rep. Anna Eshoo, 698 Emerson Street, Palo Alto
    (Corner of Emerson and Forest, 2 blocks south of University Avenue)"

    As this is kind of local, I'll include this handy suggestion.
    They also suggest that you:
    "Call the White House and condemn the repression of peaceful protestors.
    The White House swtichboard is 202-456-1111."

    And a letter from the front is below:

    Greetings from Seattle,

    I was at the demo today -- will send out a full report soon -- but for
    now, i just want to say that reports of police brutality are not
    exaggerated. Many are in fact grossly underestimated. I didn't get
    anything worse than tear gas, but police have been
    beating with riot sticks
    peaceful protestors who sat or lay on the ground. They have taken
    protestors who were wearing face masks, covered the inside of the mask
    with pepper spray and forced it back onto the person's face. They dragged
    an elderly woman across the ground by her hair and an arm. They've shot
    rubber bullets at ranges of a few feet, and one officer pulled a real gun
    on protestors before other officers restrained him. In addition,
    police have _not_ been arresting protestors to any extent -- I heard 18
    arrests the whole day -- they have simply been attacking us. Now the
    mayor has declared a state of civil emergency, set a 7 pm curfew dowtown,
    and called out the National Guard. So if you can make it to the Palo Alto
    demo tomorrow, <please> do. (info below if you missed it)

    NO WTO!

    In solidarity,

    {name excised}

By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 12:29 pm:

    Oh, yeah, and ___, Cyst, and Agatha:
    Doesn't that sound like a great party?
    Look, maybe Cyst's friend is shallow, but that doesn't necessarily indicate that all protesters are.
    I know a lot of protesters who are simple livers, buy no new clothes, and don't wear makeup.

    Besides the fact that one contributes by one's presence whether or not one has a pure enough attitude for some guy who isn't there and is just speculating/bitching about it online.

By Patrick on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 01:24 pm:

    Lucy you are an ass, god damn! Agatha made a valid point about one of your faults and look how you act, defensive, aggressive and in denial.....who gives a rats ass what you have done, where you have marched blah blah blah , the fact that you can make a statement about someone you don't know, just like you did me in the past, you did nate very recently.....god damn! agatha is exactly right, you should take lesson from one of the more level headed people around here...thanks agatha, when someone else makes a point like that it makes me feel i wasn't so wrong to begin with

    yeah i heard the labor march was very impressive, some 40k people from the stadium to downtown or whatever, the fuckers breaking windows, smashing shit and lighting cars on fire is definitely detracting from the point, but the fucking pigs and their rubber bullets and tear gas need to check themselves, cops can be real testy when they are outnumbered by such a large proportion.....remember, any dumbass can become a cop.....

By MapleLeaf on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 01:41 pm:

    It seems the 'Lucy pollution' has moved to another thread to pass on her biased crap to the same people. Only this time she strikes out at Agatha ...damn ... is it possible for this woman to get through a day without alienating herself with someone? Only this time she tries to justify it by describing her past. It explains nothing.

    Why don't you take up a cause of all your Pete Rose needs some help...maybe you could get him into the Hall of Fame where he belongs.

    btw...were you molested as a child?

By Czarina on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 02:20 pm:

    Extremists of any form are ALWAYS ineffectual. Yahoo-----lets go grab the club, gun, bricks,
    teargas or whatever device suits ones tempo of the
    moment. Whether they be protesters or police,these methods,cannot, never have, nor ever will be effective. Which ever "side",[ and I use this term lightly ], one chooses to identify with, can easily see the "folly", and "dangerous" aspect of the "opposing" side, but yet remains so short-sighted as to be unable to recognize the very same tactics in their own "group", Oh, but excuse me, I forgot, that these tactics are necessary, the "other side", forced us to behave that way, so therefore it must be acceptable. Does not every coin have 2 sides???????Has anyone ever studied history? The lessons are right there, accesable in black and white, to any who have the desire to enlighten themselves--------but golly-gosh-darn, that just wouldn't be half as much fun as going out there and rioting/protecting,and justifying these tactics with a self righteous " I'm right and your wrong" attitude.
    There is, and always will be, just one way to deal with a fox, YOU MUST OUT-FOX HIM.

    or maybe just contact Ms. Kathy-Lee Gifford, and get her input on this situation, I believe she might just have some inside info.

By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 03:09 pm:

    You know, I'm getting really sick of your little whiteboy club (aveq camp followers now) following me around and harassing me. I have never followed anyone to another thread and flamed them just because I didn't like them.

    Fuck you, Patrick. Why don't you storm off again... and see if you can make it stick.

    Fuck you, Maple Leaf. Didn't you used to post as Scorpio FH? I've barely spoken to you and you come on here to harrass me. You *are* jumping on the bandwagon and it makes me sick.

    I'm hoping that Nate will retain some sense of dignity about this.


By Patrick on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 03:20 pm:

    Lucy your posts stand for themselves, people only point out the obvious

By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 03:42 pm:

By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 03:46 pm:

    btw, I maintain to those who oppose citizen activism, that tear gas and rubber bullets are not fun.
    I feel that it is rather foolhardy to dismiss one of the largest acts of civil disobedience in the history of our country as a bunch of partying college students.
    This is cops brutalizing college students in huge numbers, all in the name of Corporate America. This is serious.

By Patrick on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 03:57 pm:

    the cops are scared, joe six pack and punch clock larry can become cops, it's a steady paycheck. that doesn't mean they are good cops, when you are outnumbered like they are, you would be surprised how you might act. They are instilled with the "us vs.them" idea from the moment they join. I am not saying their actions are right, but it simply can't be put that cops are beating protesters. Protesters and burning shit, throwing shit and breaking shit..........i realize not all, and in fact only a small minority are doing this "civil disobedience" say the cops are brutalizing in the name of corporate america is bullshit, the cops don't give a rats ass about corporate america, they just want to serve their 8 hours and go the fuck home, don't place them with higher intellect and purpose other than to protect, serve and abuse every now and then....

By J on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 03:58 pm:

    Lucy is right,and I,m sure all the protest helped finally get us out of Viet Nam,I,v been in a few myself,worst I ever got was pepper spray.

By MapleLeaf on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 03:59 pm:

    Thank feels so good to be considered a member of something.....and not standing out there bareassed as you obviously are..... Do you ever have the feeling you are going to a gun battle with a knive? are defenceless to these guys so let it be.

    No. I have only posted as ML.....I don't follow anyone show up spewing venom everywhere you go and I view all boards.

    Just so you know.

By Patrick on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 04:00 pm:

    who opposes citizen activism? If you are misconstruing what i said in the other post let me clarify.

    This type of activism is INDEED warranted. They are fighting a recognizable, organized institution sanctioned by gov'ts worldwide.

    Activism against the mindset of the individual is what i called you see the difference?

By Patrick on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 04:06 pm:

    hee hee hee hee maple......

By Rhiannon on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 04:26 pm:

    I like to see how my irritating-in-real-life "just so you know" tag-line has caught on so well here. Not that I thought it up or anything. But among my associates it's regarded as a purely Spideresque thing to say. Just so, well, you know.

By Lucy on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 04:54 pm:

    I was responding to ____.
    Don't talk to me.

By cyst on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 06:16 pm:

    I'm playing scrabble tonight with a boy. what is sex scrabble?

    hey, rhiannon, I thought "just so you know" was mine. but it doesn't matter because I'm going to try not to say it anymore.

    just like a.s. byatt should stop using the word "indefatigable" in "possession," the book I'm reading. page 28. she's used it three times so far.

    that chick who was late getting to the protest because she was putting on her makeup doesn't represent seattle activists on the whole, but her type makes up a large percentage. the ones who go to protests to see and be seen. I'd say they comprised about a third of the crowds for the major protests in seattle in the early '90s (flag-burning law, gulf war, rodney king).

By Patrick on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 06:45 pm:

    i am going to a coffee shop open mike nite to do some beat reading shit with angry sam, he has the words i have the's pretty silly i think, but s really important to sam, a few years ago i would have viewed something like this with high regard, but unfortunately sam will still go unoticed

By Nate on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 07:06 pm:

    "Conservative presidential candidate Pat Buchanan praised the thousands of demonstrators marching against the World Trade Organization, calling the Geneva-based organization that sets the rules of global trade an "embryonic monster." "

    isn't that interesting.

    looks like anyone who supports the protests is in bed with the devil.

By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 07:16 pm:

    The radical right is just posturing for its anti-UN constituency.
    The only thing the US higher ups are worried about is the possibility that one or two of the WTO's provisions could be applied to them (they don't want to have to give up their protectionism, just force other gov'ts to accept shoddy, overpriced goods). However, as this hasn't happened with any UN decision so far, most of the gov't knows they don't have to worry.
    BTW: for an example of the US's approach to UN legislation read "Umbrella of US Power" by Noam Chomsky. It's about how the US has used the Universal Declaration of Human Rights against other countries, and fostered massive violations in client states (as well as committing quite a few).

By mistaswine on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 07:36 pm:

By Isolde on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 08:26 pm:

    Sex Scrabble--it works like Scrabble, except that you get 10 extra points for sex/dirty words. It can be quite interesting. I admire the protesters in Seattle. Pepperspray sucks. No, not all the protestors are hippies--in fact, only about 5 of the ones I know are. Interesting how police feel the need to repress something they can't control--like a little kid slipping something under a carpet.

By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 08:37 pm:

    The police are paid to suppress anything that deviates from blind obedience.
    Hence the laws against consensual crimes. Consensual crimes are things that lead to people thinking bad thoughts.
    You keep thinking those bad thoughts, you'll fuck up the whole reality-tunnel they're trying to cram everybody into.

    That's why they're still trying to find a way to pers- I mean prosecute thoughtcrimes on the Net.

By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 08:38 pm:

    Oh, yeah, and they want us in the tunnel so they can do this sort of shit and we won't notice.

By Agatha on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 08:42 pm:

    okay, this is all i am going to say about this, and i'm not even sure why i feel the need to state this.
    1. ________ is dave, who lives with me, who is about as left wing as they get. we live in an extremely liberal town. we have extremely liberal friends. one of our best friends is the head of washpirg. we also know conservative people. we like them both. you don't know him, and you are judging him based on what he writes, which i know is all that you have to go on. my point is that you cannot assume that you know anything about someone based on what they post on a bbs. give me a break.

    2. i am not joining any kind of club, in fact i find you to be admirable both in terms of your intelligence and your commitment to what you believe in. i'm sure if i met you, i would like you. but sometimes, lucy, you just have to chill out a little. it really makes life hard to be angry all of the time. i think that we probably agree on a lot more than you would believe.

    3. my dad's a jew. half of my relatives are jews. i am only stating this because i feel like you tend to stereotype people and place them in groups. i have been stereotyped and pigeonholed more times than i can even count. i just try to keep everything in perspective, and get along with people as best i can. in the end, it makes my life more pleasurable. i feel like people are innately good and dependable, for the most part. in return for treating people kindly and fairly, i generally get treated with kindness and respect. when i don't, i shrug it off and move on. your anger seems to be consuming you, and although i don't know you, it concerns me all the same.


By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 08:57 pm:

    Agatha, I was pissed. You jump on the bandwagon with(I'm sorry, coincidentally start feeling the need to snipe at me for no apparent reason at the same time as) a bunch of people who are hounding me all over the goddamned board and you expect me not to respond?
    I am seriously considering walking off of the boards because of Patrick's petty harassment and you think that I am going to sit still when you join in the fun?

    As for my comments about yr boyfriend, I assumed he didn't like activists b/c he said all of those nasty things about them.
    If you say nasty things about a group of people, those people, and other people will think you don't like that group of people.

By Isolde on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 09:52 pm:

    Lucy--I understand being irritated with Agatha. However, it is not an excuse to jump on her back. I think that she makes a good point--try not to take things so seriously. It hurts you and others. Just give some of us a break, eh?

By Agatha on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 09:59 pm:

    i surely don't expect you not to respond, in fact i was sure you would. i think that patrick is being annoying, also, truth be told. especially with that secret white boy handshake shit. that's pissing me off. dave said nasty things about some of the "activists", but i think he was really referring to the people who are just damaging property for the sake of mob mentality. and those types are definitely present, mixed in with the protesters who are informed and educated and demonstrating responsibly and peacefully. i hope you could see my point. i'm not trying to attack you. i hope you can understand my perspective. i have to go make soup now.

By Antigone on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 02:16 am:

    Asking Lucy to understand someone else's perspective seems to be an uphill battle, especially considering she thinks so few of us can understand hers.

    Anyway, maybe it would help tone things down if we all tried to respond to her ideas and not her anger.

    If that's possible.

By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 12:27 pm:

    To Antigone, Agatha, Shit-for-brains-Canadian and the rest of the flock:
    The reason that I may be a bit sharp with people is that Ratprick's constant harassment has truly pissed me off. He seems proud of himself for it.
    NOBODY but him hounds people all over the boards whenever they argue with him. He's done this shit to me twice and to Heather once. It's out of line.
    The thing that really bugs me is that everybody else is joining in, which greatly lowers my opinion of you.

    Repeat after me, all of you:
    Four legs good, two legs ba-a-a-d

By Patrick on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 12:37 pm:

    so i did the coffee shop open mike thing, OI VEY!
    first off the bitch running the show had her head so far up her ass, she actually thought she was "producing" something. The first three bits were unbearable, I had to bite my lip to keep from laughing........some kid got up with an electric guitar and a distortion pedal that he had no idea how to use and he mutilated a couple of Jay Mascisusususususu (spell?) tunes. He should have been flogged right away but thats not in the spirit of things right? When it was finally our tune, it actually came out well. Sam read an Angry Sam installment and I had some bongos and a rib tickler to back him up. It was good, called Bebop Mexico, i hope to post it soon. Anyway, the bitch producer and some other performance artist lady asked me to do a percussion gig with them at a jazz improv gig.....i was really really irritable at the time, i really only did it for sam, and I remember why i stopped going to open mike nights, especially at a coffee house, god i needed a drink so bad, to deal with it all... think i could have gotten higher at the NA meeting going on downstairs. Sam was takin belts from a flask, I should have been tipped by him. Eitherway, these people are supposed to be calling me, i dunno what to say, I am not really interested, but i have a hard time turning people down. if i am going to be doing any music its going to be the gig with my buddy james, he can play a slide like you wouldn;t believe, it's delta, it's low, it's just me and him, he's good, swingin italian chef/guitar player from brooklyn....with school work and shooting photos in between, i don't have time to paly music these days, i need a house or a loft to set up my kit so i can play at my leisure as oppsoed to paying $10 and hour at some dumpy hollwyood studio ...i don't even own the instruments i used last night, they are sams. i dunno,,,,,i have been kinda irritable since, not sure why, pissoff!

By MapleLeaf on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 12:45 pm:

    Sounds like you had a good time.
    By any chance was the producer's name 'Lucy'?

    Just wondering.

By PATRICK on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 01:25 pm:

    now now

    a friend sent this email to me.....

    "This is the coolest form of online protest I've ever seen. All you have to do is load a web page and let it sit for along as you can. You will be overloading the WTO conference web server, hence a virtual sit-in. Electronic civil unrest. Join the protestors in Seattle while sitting
    around and scratching your ass:">

By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 01:30 pm:

    I got another letter from the front (I'm on a mailing list and get regular updates)

    >>Subject: From the Front Lines
    >Crazy, crazy day.
    >Obviously I participated in the WTO protests all day, 8am-7pm. I saw so
    >much stuff I can't possibly tell you everything but here are some of the
    >scenes that still have me buzzing.
    >I walked downtown from home and the streets were filled by 8:00 am. People
    >duct-taped themselves to people to prevent the WTO delegates from entering
    >the downtown area. Every corner had a separate chain and protest taking
    >place. And this was before any of the big planned actions. And obviously
    >it was successful, we shut down the city and the WTO for the day!
    >Right away when I got into the thick of downtown (all the streets are closed
    >to traffic) I saw a full-on SWAT mobilization. Machine guns and all. I
    >hear sirens in a mass of people and look behind just as three of four cars
    >and five or six motor cycles are rolling towards me on the sidewalk. They
    >passed and stopped 10 feet in front of me. The SWAT team jumped out of
    >their SUV's and were all dressed in black, with equipment to the tilt, and
    >ran single file two city blocks with machine guns and big cans of pepper
    >spray or whatever it was. I, of course, chased them to see what was up.
    >They surrounded a cop car where they had detained someone and started
    >pushing the crowd back. A stand off for about 15 minutes ensued and then
    >that was the end of that. Real tough guy stuff though. And this was
    >before breakfast. The rally is still five hours away.
    >The march was great, so many labor activists, human rights activists,
    >indigenous groups, environmentalists, etc. So peaceful and so full of
    >positive energy. Actually I started by marching with around 3000 student
    >activists from Seattle Central Community College and the UW before meeting
    >up with the big march. The rain was slowing and the sky was turning blue.
    >That was amazing, a great, great vibe. Peaceful and happy solidarity is the
    >best way to describe it.
    >We then met up with the "big march" and proceeded slowly downtown. It was
    >cool. Parade-like but different. Real casual. But there I was, Yonkers
    >boy gone environmentalist rubbing elbows with Old Lady Mae from the Local
    >International Service Workers Union, the 541 International Steelworkers
    >union, Vietnamese Peace Action groups, etc etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. I mean
    >it, so many unions, causes, groups, etc. represented.
    >The images of the whole day are so vibrant, yet the craziness that took
    >place after the march was nothing I have ever experienced.
    >The streets were alive. Starbucks was busted up, Radio Shack busted up,
    >anti-WTO graffiti everywhere. "Fuck Corporate America" spray painted on Old
    >Navy. Nike was so trashed. The letters N I K E were mangled. They were
    >tough-looking steel letters above the doorway and they were so worked over.
    >People took over downtown, sitting on top of bustops, busses, store awnings,
    >climbing telephone polls, blocking off all of the streets with human chains
    >and dumpsters and fires in garbage cans. Thousands of people with signs,
    >puppets, props, and other creative protest paraphernalia. Total party
    >atmosphere, like when the parents go away kind of thing. Music was blasting
    >and people were sitting, marching, chanting, locking themselves to
    >mini-stages, singing and whooping it up.
    >Then the cops came. Or at least they decided to push through and take some
    >of the streets back. Uh-oh.
    >It was like what you see go on in Israel on tv, yet less violence from the
    >people. Overall, I got tear-gassed about 4 or 5 times. "Concussion bombs"
    >overhead and stinging gas in your eyes and nose with people yelling and
    >screaming and 25 cops rattling their clubs against their shields as they
    >pursue you down a street is quite an experience. I felt like I was being
    >hunted almost. They kept pursuing the crowd and using all this ammo to keep
    >us running. You would turn around and see them with their rifles drawn
    >shooting rubber bullets at people that wouldn't run from them. No warnings,
    >no message, no words at all. Just an offensive assault.
    >I was shell shocked but couldn't leave. I couldn't see, bombs were going
    >off, and people were screaming "this is a non-violent protest, this is a
    >non-violent protest."
    >And I have to agree, it really was. It could have gotten way out of hand
    >but the energy for the most part was non-violent and cool, it was just that
    >everyone was shocked, but not really panicked. Some people were throwing
    >bottles, pieces of wood, etc. but it was a very very small minority.
    >There were protesters who were really well prepared, medics, legal
    >observers, nurturers, everything. It's just that the confrontation took
    >such precedence. It didn't feel like America. But it did because everyone
    >was standing behind their rights and doing what they feel they had to to
    >speak their peace and not be bullied away from an important political
    >I just couldn't believe that the Mayor or whoever would let the police use
    >the tactic they used to clear the streets.
    >Nutty, nuttiness. The second craziest day of my life. Thank God I am safe
    >and sound and most others are as well.
    >What a day.
    >I just hope the message gets across. I can't imagine that it won't though.
    >Who in America will not know what the WTO is?
    >Anyway, I must go. The city is under a curfew since 7:00 pm, it is now 9:55
    >and I am at work downtown. I will have to make my trip home shortly. I can
    >still hear the helicopters outside.
    >Power to the People :-)
    {name withheld}.

By Patrick on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 01:41 pm:

    funny, thats sounds almost identicle to an email i got from a buddy who lives in portland but was in seattle........your friend named nathan?

By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 01:45 pm:

    Don't talk to me.
    For any reason.
    You don't just do that shit and act like it never happened. I never ever want to read another post from you.

By Patrick on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 01:54 pm:

    thats where your being child, if you don't want to read another post i suggest you take a hike, otherwise show some maturity, stop with the childish name calling, you made your point, the fact that you keep going on, further makes you look like an ass......i am trying to be reasonable with you, as much as you might want me say my patience is wearing thin, it's not....your only making things worse for everyone by calling me childish names...the sad irony is, i think you know this and thats why you keep attacking because you are embarrassed and the only way you seem to have been taught to deal with things like this is to never admit fault and keep fighting, almost like a little boy.....

By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 01:59 pm:

    All I have asked you to do is leave me alone.
    You have hounded me all over the damned boards.
    When you do shit like that, people don't want to hear from you.
    Please stop hounding me.
    Please leave me alone.
    Please let me be.

By Patrick on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 02:22 pm:

    i am talking to you, i am not hounding you, if you view my posts as hounding then thats your problem. I admitted to be antagonistic at other times Lucy but minus me calling you behavior "ass" then perhaps it's you who are hounding.

    I even tried to talk with you about something entirely unrelated, reagrding you email from your friend in seattle, there was no mention of anything other than the subject at hand and look how you reacted.

    I can forget all the bullshit and post in a pseudo-friendly fashion with you, despite your name calling, the question is can you?

By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 02:57 pm:

    This is not the first time you have done this.
    Hounding somebody all over the boards because they argued with you on one board is out of line.
    That is why nobody but you does it (at least until all the sheep joined in).
    You have done this shit to me once before.
    I've also seen you pull the same shit with Heather.
    Clearly, this is S.O.P. for you.
    As I don't like getting hounded, I am going to avoid the person who does it.
    Now fuck off.

By Patrick on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 03:09 pm:

    uh NO lucy, i respond to your posts at hand, i don't bring in baggage from elsewhere. whats the point in that, i can always tro back over the the other thread and say what i like? And the fact that you keep referring to others as sheep is most likely an insult to said others, can you accept the fact they may, just like antigone and agatha said, they respond to YOU and what YOU say and perhaps what YOU say can be inflammatory. Can so many saying the same thing be wrong? Can you not accept that? Is this post hounding? Can you be reasosnable? Can someone try to level with you without hearing "fuck you" "terd" "ratprick" etc etc (which by the way my brother used to get my goat by calling patricia, again, if you want to flame me at least be funny about it) I haven't hounded you, it's just you become defensive and argumenative at the drop of a feel corned because others who are noramlly passive have spoken out and now you feel ganged up on. Perhaps this is where being an adult come into play, you admit where you might have screwed up, accept that there may be some truth in what others say, accept that the events that have trnaspired do not justify calling me all of these names. You are a smart girl Lucy, how you can be so shortsided baffles me.

By grandpa dolemite on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 03:23 pm:

    why don't you fucking people open up a pissing thread and restrict all your crap-slinging to that forum instead of spewing shit all over the god damn place?

    better yet: go out, buy some perspective, and try to realize that's it's just a fucking message board, man. you don't have to respond to every damn thing some chucklehead motherfucker says.

    god damn.

    step back, eat glass, and chill out.

    the both of you.

By Patrick on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 03:25 pm:

    thank you sir
    yes sir
    thank you sir


By J on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 03:26 pm:

    If this was in real life,Patrick and Lucy,face to face,this is where they would start tearing their clothes off and just start fucking like dogs.

By Gee on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 03:35 pm:

    I can't believe you put that image into my mind.

    I feel so dirty.

By Agatha on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 03:41 pm:

    patrick, for the love of god, just stop talking to her. it is getting tedious for all involved. just ignore each other. it's not hard.

By Patrick on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 03:47 pm:

    SORRY AGATHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    your right, my apologies to all

By RAMBADFHASKGHERgb on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 03:49 pm:

    and please, you are = you're.

By Sarah on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 04:00 pm:

    so anyway...

    is anyone else concerned about the people's right to assemble and protest being taken away? they are blocking off entire parts of the city to people with signs.

    hello folks. this is pure fascism.

    just because a few (or more than a few) people were demonstrating violently does not mean that the next day the police and government officials can take away every else's right to assemble and protest. but that is exactly what they are doing.

    this is illegal.

    we do not own our own civil liberties any longer. if you are not afraid, then you've been swallowing too much prozac. this is scary shit.

By Patrick on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 04:03 pm:

    i was just reading that. The 24 hour curfew is total bullshit....

By MapleLeaf on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 04:03 pm:


    WELL!!! YOU....YOU....YOu....YOu......You.... You

By Antigone on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 06:20 pm:

    Say, Patrick, e-mail me, wouldya?

By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 07:23 pm:

    I just read this:
    "uh NO lucy, i respond to your posts at hand, i
    don't bring in baggage from elsewhere."
    And I had to set the record straight:
    "no baggage, " huh?
    And that's only the beginning of his endless harassment. I hadn't even posted on either thread.

By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 07:29 pm:

    Oh, and, shitboy (and I'm sorry I had to post it here but I just can't let a baldfaced lie stand) being dispensed with:

    Another letter from the front:

    We began Tuesday morning on the U. Washington campus, encouraging
    students to take part in the campus walk-out. Several hundred people
    rallied in their equivalent of White Plaza, including a group of
    Zapatistas!!!, and then we marched across campus and around the university
    district, waving to people in businesses, and having a great, completely
    non-violent and non-destructive time. The protest was well-organized,
    with people appointed as medics, peacekeepers, legal observers, and march
    leaders, equipped with cell-phones. I saw hundreds of video cameras and
    normal cameras.

    Then we joined the march of students coming from Seattle Central
    Communtiy College, together with the People's General Assembly, the
    movement for Democracy in Laos, a bunch of Free Tibet people, and members
    of the Falun Dong/Gong. We congregated by the Space Needle, and then
    joined up with the labor march. Best estimates I've heard for the labor
    march are around 30,000 and probably 7-10,000 for the student contingent.
    I echo the sentiments of others at the amazing feeling of solidarity felt
    as we walked the streets with the Raging Grannies, the Steelworkers,
    Amnesty International Chapters, the Radical Cheerleaders, the Lesbian
    Avengers, the Sierra Club, and Public Citizen.

    The Warner Brother Co. has statues of Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck in
    front of their store, and they were positioned so that protestors could
    stick signs in the crooks of thir arms and make it appear like they were
    holding them. We were all amused.

    Then downtown, where we spotted- for the first time, really- the
    police. Serious. The police were using tear gas, rubber bullets,
    nightsticks, and pepperspray. Today, they announced that no one except the
    police would be allowed to wear gas masks downtown. (To clarify from other
    e-mails, I do not believe that any of the police used actual bullets-
    certainly not machine guns- and SWAT teams were not present) Tuesday was
    only Seattle police, and Wednesday the national gaurd was there. We were
    right in the middle of everything, by the Sheraton, and there were several
    attempts to get delegates in and out.

    Let me stress the fact that the vast majority of protestors were
    completely non-violent and non-destructive. It's my impression that most
    of the property damage was due to a group of about 100 anarchists, who
    broke windows at Starbucks, Banana Republic, and Nordstroms. Some random
    kid tore down the Nike sign, and basically said when interviewed that he
    had no idea what was going on, and was just taking advantage of the
    situation. He was booed and many of the protestors yelled "Shame on You."
    I really think that most people there were very well-informed and know the
    arguments for the WTO- and have concluded that people should come before

    We were teargassed without warning Tuesday around 5 PM, soon after
    civil emergency was declared. I know of hundreds of people who were
    peppersprayed, often cases where the protestors were locked down. The
    issues didn't even seem to be dispersing people, but more just to bother
    them. Many people arrested without warning, or just for walking down the
    street in a large group. Two women leaving the United Methodist Church
    were peppersprayed by police with absolutely no provocation. Estimates of
    the number of people with minor injuries have been underestimated by the
    police and the media, as most protestors have been treated by each other,
    or by the medics there with NGOs.

    Wednesday we attended a forum on gender issues in world
    development, including woman who had organized the maquiladoras on the
    US-Mexico border, a woman who works on micro-grants in Tanzania, a woman
    from the American south who worked on community development, and a woman
    from the Phillipines concerned with the "comparitive advantage"'s affect of
    small farmers and indigendous culture. Then a silent, single-file march
    down to the police barricades blocking entrace to the no-protest zone
    downtown. We put tape over out mouths to symbolize the lack of freedom of
    speech and the general denial of democracic proceeding at the WTO. Very
    powerful, and no arrests or violence. In the afternoon, a discussion on the
    General Agreement on Trade and Services, especially on its potential
    affects of education.

    Let me also stress that we should focus not only on issues of
    violence and police brutality, but also the reasons that all of us
    protestors were there. The WTO is not a democratic institution. No
    globalization without representatioN! It makes national laws protecting
    human rights, labor, and the environment harder to enforce, and sets
    standards ceilings rather than floors. It promotes corporate growth,
    rather than sustainable , domestically-based development. It promotes
    un-sustainable industrialization without appropriate technology transfer

    The public was welcoming overall, and the truck drivers we passed
    seemed to like us a great deal. However, at another protest, someone else
    told me that a fellow bus-rider complained that the traffic delays from
    protestors were causing her to "miss Wheel-of-Fortune again." Right. FIGHT
    APATHY! Educate people about the issues at the WTO!

    So, Stay tuned for a big "What Happened at WTO" thing next quarter-
    a bunch of us are trying to get together and present our experiences,
    pictures, and slides. Its very important that people start thinking about
    these issues.

    Thanks for your time! Please call Anna Eshoo (In D.C.
    202-456-1111- or look up her local number, sorry I'm tired right now) and
    express your concern about police brutality against protestors, and
    identify yourself as an activist concerned with issues at the WTO. Thanks!

    {name withheld}

By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 07:34 pm:

    "They have taken protestors who were wearing face masks, covered the inside of the mask with pepper spray and forced it back onto the person's face."
    I just had to highlight this.
    The pigs did this to a bunch of logging protestors last year, only they actually swabbed the stuff onto the people's eyes.
    A judge upheld it, saying "pain compliance" techniques were acceptable.
    Can we say "Doublespeak", boys and girls?

By _____ on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 10:46 pm:

    look, you guys: the city tried to be accomodating to the protesters and it backfired. people are tricky and it's impossible for the cops to say with any accuracy, "you're peaceful but you aren't". they have to take a totalitarian stance. thus the curfew and the marshall law. i don't like cops. they are, at best, no better than me. i could state hundreds or reasons why i don't respect their authority. but ideals are nothing when a bunch of riot geared cops are coming at you so get the fuck away and stay away. you won't stop them. all these little skirmishes do is make problems for the people who live there. if the "protesters" had just gone away, the cops would have went back to their perimeter. there were people living in apartments just feet above the heads of these people and they were getting gassed right along with the rest. i don't know about the rest of you but we had live feeds of the whole thing and those assholes taunting the cops only made it worse. at some point, the respectable thing to do is back off.

By Gee on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 01:07 am:

    Can you fix your formating, Lucifer? It's hard to read that way.

By Sarah on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 03:56 pm:

    Dave, as much as i'd wish that respect and peaceful assembly are the ways in which to be heard and make change in our country, that just isn't the case. it never has been and it never will be. if people want to sit around holding signs and sing cum-baya, nothing will change, nobody will take note.

    i don't like violence and disrespect and irresponsible protesting, but in any case, the cops and the government do not have the right to take away people's civil liberties. it's just downright fascist.

    when those people who live downtown, who are upset about being gassed out of their apartments, eventually lose their jobs due to the global economy and international trade agreements, we'll see who is angry then.

By _____ on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 04:55 pm:

    fine then, let everyone run willy-nilly destroying everything and let the cops get fat on donuts and lets drive these meetings even further underground.

By Patrick on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 05:07 pm:

    i think alot of the little anti-starbuck brats who were fuckin shit up there have no clue, a lot of these kids just want a cause, we have had the sixties rammed down our throats and now they see a "cause" and they assume by fucking up private business they are making a point, but then again our forefathers dumped tea so whats the difference?

    i am kinda divided on the most effective method.....I appreciate the fact that the labor march was looked at so highly because of the peacful nature.......

    i am certainly against globalization of commerce, or rather the mcdonaldization of the world......but at the same time, the minute private proerty is damaged or perople are injured you should expect the same in return....hell the boston tea party fuckers got a full blown war....subsequently.....

By Lucy Phurre on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 06:06 pm:

    I think that there is a place for both groups in a movement.
    However, I think that the actions of the police were uncalled for.
    I will never approve of the use of martial law to prevent dissidents freom expressing their views.
    And ____ how come your so says you're left wing? I'm sorry if I seem to be jumping to conclusions, but the views that I have seen you express seem to me to be pretty uniformly reactionary.
    And the fact is that there was a very small number of people breaking things... and a very large number of nonviolent protesters volunteering to repair the damage.
    F'rinstance, when the anarchists broke the Starbucks window, the nonviolent protestors went and stood there all night to protect it from looting and then a group of them spent the next day sweeping up the glass and scrubbing off the graffiti.
    And the majority of the protestors were chanting "shame on you" at the destructive ones.
    The destructive ones are probably mostly (or at least led by) agents provacateur (forgive my bad French, it's not one of my languages) anyway. It certainly wouldn't be the first time such a tactic was used. As a matter of fact, my father was trained in spotting them and preventing them from fomenting violence.
    I think, were the police not using "pain compliance",tear gas, beatings, and rubber bullets on everybody in the area, the huge number of nonviolent protesters would probably find a way to limit the actions of the violent ones. I have confidence in their ability to find enough people among them trained in de-escalation and passive reesistance techniques to police themselves.
    And they would do it without brutalizing everyone in sight.

By Antigone on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 07:24 pm:

    Let's hear it for mob mentality!

By SickandFuckingTiredLucy on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 08:21 pm:

    Does this bullshit never end?

By Lucy Phurre on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 08:24 pm:

    If the whiteboys' cadre starts in on me again, I don't want to hear squat about any retaliatory action I take.
    I let this drop against my better judgement, and I barely talked Lather out of declaring all-out war on a certain instigator who shall remain nameless.

By _____ on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 08:27 pm:

    i'm not right-wing or left-wing. i'm wingless. i don't like groups. i don't like groups shoving their beliefs down other's throats. i don't like pro-lifers. i don't like pro-choicers. i don't like pro-americans, or anti-americans. i don't like that our petty, puny minds can't seem to deal with an issue without polarizing it into pros or antis. i'm just sick of people and all their hang-ups demanding attention and behaving badly. on a personal relationship level, i really like people but on a societal level, they disgust me.

    i'm tired of typing. gonna get some beer.

By Lucy Phurre on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 08:44 pm:

    I never accused you of claiming to be left-wing. I asked why your SO said so.
    I was actually kind of curious as to whether or not you agreed with her assesment.

By Agatha on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 10:08 pm:

    i never said he was left wing. he's a strictly case by case type of guy. i said that i was left wing, and that the majority of our friends are left wing. dave can't stand being defined in any way, so he would never refer to himself with a descriptive term like that either way. i like to call him rebel without a clue sometimes. regardless of what an asshole he comes across as sometimes on these boards, he rocks my world.

By Antigone on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 10:27 pm:


By Antigone on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 10:28 pm:


By Antigone on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 10:29 pm:

    All out war?

By Antigone on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 10:34 pm:

    Can we expect to see some "pain compliance" tactics? Or maybe brutalizing everyone in sight?

By _____ on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 10:54 pm:

    aww jeez, knock it the fuck off. antigone, i love your grasp of the absurd. the christmas list thing, among other things you've written, is rad. just quit the taunting and goading. some people need to be treated delicately. some people are worth treating delicately. i think lucy may be one of them. that goes for you too, patrick. for all your disagreements, you're very similar in that your need to respond to every goddam critique is a lot like hers.


By Agatha on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 11:04 pm:

    i just reread my post where i talked about dave. it wasn't very clear what i was saying, i now see. what i was trying to point out is that dave likes me, and i am left wing. i was trying to point out that everything is shades of gray. i've said it before, and i'll say it again.

    it's all just shades of gray.

    dave likes the christmas beer. it gives him pleasure.

By cyst on Saturday, December 4, 1999 - 01:08 am:

    I'm considering reneging on an old vow never to fuck a republican.

    tonight I'm going back to the one restaurant in portland where I've seen a cockroach. it ran across the table. I had to leave.

    I've since grown up.

By hydrozoa on Saturday, December 4, 1999 - 01:45 am:

    broadway is insane. the national guard is stationed at the major businesses, forcing the civilians to move their "riots" to the neighborhoods. (my piano teacher is from dublin and says that it's not a real riot unless bombs are desroying buildings and children are being shot.) the protesters were screaming and yelling their fool heads off like they were being tortured and wondering why they were being maced. it wasn't even about the wto anymore--it was "police brutality" and "civil terrorism." we got into our tear-gas-proof car and parked right in front of the community college, where the stand-off was staged. the cops didn't even notice us. it was an amazing scene. the mentality required for this kind of spectacle blows me away. the national guard came in from the north and spd was on the south end and they boxed the protesters in to contain them and make arrests. there are about five cop cars about a half a block down the street right now, siren blaring. i don't know why.

    i think the cops have done an outstanding job in performing their crowd control procedures. i'm so sick of this innocent bystander bullshit. if you know there's a riot and you leave your home to go observe it, you know damned well that you're subjecting yourself to risk. tear gas and rubber bullets are unpleasant--unless you compare them to mustard gas and real bullets. i've been gassed a few times, for things like walking home and waiting for the bus. tough shit. that's the risk i take, cos the cops sure as shit aren't going to sit around to find out if i'm a threat before they fend me off. in the midst of chaos, i would do the same thing. cops are humans, just like the poor child laborers in indonesia, and they are scared shitless, just like the poor, innocent civilians. the fucking hypocrisy makes me sick.

    sorry. i'm not making this speech to anyone in particular.

By Antigone on Saturday, December 4, 1999 - 01:56 am:

    I know, _____. Sometimes I can be a real shit. But sometimes I can't help myself.

    Lucy called us a mob and a herd of sheep when many of us asked her to calm down and not be so reactionary. Then she turns around and praises some of the Seattle protestors for chanting "shame on you" at the destructive protestors. Isn't that what we've done with her?

    Also she's claimed that "the destructive ones are probably mostly (or at least led by) agents provacateur..." Does this mean that actual protestors can not be led to destructive acts simply by their own anger and frustration at the idea, institution, or people they are protesting? I think Lucy is in a state of mind now that she can understand the effects of overflowing anger...

By hydrozoa on Saturday, December 4, 1999 - 02:00 am:

    as far as i can tell, lucy can't admit when she's wrong. it's something i've noticed about a lot of "intelligent" women.

    call it my mob mentality.

By heather on Saturday, December 4, 1999 - 02:37 am:

    if you need to talk about her like that why can't you just email each other

    hydrozoa- i don't know what -"intelligent" women- is supposed to mean- but my reading of it is an offensive one.

    please watch what you say in generalities

    and stop trying to interpret other people's 'state of mind'

By Antigone on Saturday, December 4, 1999 - 02:41 am:

    By her 'state of mind' I mean she's really pissed. Am I wrong?

By Gee on Saturday, December 4, 1999 - 02:43 am:

    That's good. I would have just said "shut up hydrozoa".

By Fetidbeaver on Saturday, December 4, 1999 - 06:59 pm:

    "all out war".....hhhmmmmm....."mother of all wars".....hhhhmmmmm.....what a joke!

By RODNEY_KING on Saturday, December 4, 1999 - 07:21 pm:


By I Tried It Your Way Lucy on Monday, December 6, 1999 - 12:10 pm:

    I hereby dub you Atinygon(-ad, that is)
    And your little slut camp follower shall be "Jellyfish-snatch"

    I fucking warned you.

    You ARE sheep.
    And you ARE a mob.
    And I DID give you a second chance, against my better judgement.

    And I don't want to hear SHIT out of any of you fuckers about it, when the only person who said anything about the inappropriateness of the whiteboys' behavior is Heather.

    I'm sick and tired of being the only one criticized for a flamewar I tried to let die.
    When you people make it clear to your little oppressed whiteboy mascots that their behavior is inappropriate, I will let it drop. But if you won't, I will.

By Lucy on Monday, December 6, 1999 - 12:16 pm:

    Oh, I'm sorry, ____ did say something, before getting in his little dig at me.
    I don't "have to be treated delicately," but I have my limits, and I had been pushed past them by constant hounding long before Atinygon(ad) and Jellyslut started in on me.
    Oh and Gee did speak up.
    Thank you those VERY few people on whom it has dawned that maybe hounding somebody to death (even if they are evil because the mob said so) isn't right.

    Fuck the rest of you sheep.
    Where's Andy from Scotland when you need him?

By Patrick on Monday, December 6, 1999 - 12:52 pm:

    did you see the video of the cops kicking that guy in the nuts..i heard about it, hoping it surfaces on the web, apprently it came from cnn.......

    otherwise (oh maw gawdddddd!)

By Patrick on Monday, December 6, 1999 - 12:53 pm:

    hey dave isn't it time for a new handle?

By _____ on Monday, December 6, 1999 - 01:00 pm:

    oh, lucy. you make being nice to you so difficult. i know. you don't even have to say it. but, no doubt you will. go ahead, get it over with.

By _____ on Monday, December 6, 1999 - 01:01 pm:

    what's wrong with this one?

By Patrick on Monday, December 6, 1999 - 01:02 pm:

    i dunno, something new, perhaps fool us for a week or so, berate us all, beat us up, you know we like the abuse..

By _____ on Monday, December 6, 1999 - 01:04 pm:

    i'll think about it.

By Unsympathetic Lucy on Monday, December 6, 1999 - 01:17 pm:

    What the HELL exactly am I supposed to do?
    I asked you fuckers to stop.
    I told you I was letting it drop against my better judgement.
    I came back after a weekend off and found that you had decided to restart it.

    I wash my hands of you fuckers.

    L-We're having mutton for dinner, baby-baby.

By Rhiannon on Monday, December 6, 1999 - 01:31 pm:

    So Lather's pretty name starts with an L, does it? Hmmmm....

By Rhiannon on Monday, December 6, 1999 - 01:44 pm:

    Aw, forget it. I was going to post a list of men's names and then coyly ask if his name was among them...but I can't find any clean lists. Who cares what names mean anyway? Do you think someone would actually choose one name over another because one means "God is with us" and the other means "Gift of God"? Is anyone that nit-picky?

By Lucy Phurre on Monday, December 6, 1999 - 02:23 pm:

    I actually think the meanings of names are important... for aesthetic reasons, if nothing else.

    And, as for my sweetie's name, I admit to nothing.

By J on Monday, December 6, 1999 - 02:46 pm:

    I wanted to name Heather,Rhiannon,but my husband was an asshole about it,but her middle name is Rhian,a mix of our mother,s name.Ryan was home from the hospital for 5 weeks before we could agree about it.

By _____ on Monday, December 6, 1999 - 02:53 pm:

    Monday, December 6, 1999 - 1:17 pm EST:

    Lucy Phurre ceases to be worth it.

    i tried, i honestly did.

By mistaswine on Monday, December 6, 1999 - 02:58 pm:

    how come you're not coming to the city with kelsey and cleo?

By Rhiannon on Monday, December 6, 1999 - 02:59 pm:

    I can't find that link I once posted about the goddess Rhiannon. It said she was the Queen of Hell and Oblivion. I thought that was cool.

    Susan Seddon Boulet did a whole book of goddess paintings, and the one for the goddess Rhiannon was neat. I have a print of it from a calendar on my wall. The little paragraph that went with it says:

    "Rhiannon is the Welsh underworld goddess. Her name derives from Rigantona, which means 'great queen.' She is an embodiment of life, death, and rebirth, for in her realm there is no death without regeneration. A shape shifter, she can assume any form she wants and often appears as a white horse. She is a muse goddess and is accompanied by three sweet-singing birds who can revive the dead or put the living to sleep. In later myth she appears as Nimue or as Vivien, the Lady of the Lake. Rhiannon is a beautiful queen of the night, reminding us of the close balance between death and rebirth. She points the way to our instinctual and animal selves as a source of creativity, abundance, and order."

    Shameless self-promotion, I know, but I thought that was nice. Not everyone is named after a goddess. ;)

By Lucy Phurre on Monday, December 6, 1999 - 03:20 pm:

    PEOPLE: (and I use the term loosely to refer to you fluffy, bleating, quadropedal people, you know who you are)

    It's not paranoia when you ARE constantly under attack.
    And perhaps I am less than forgiving, but I would like to see ANYBODY go through what I've been through and still have something nice to say to ANY of the participants.

    You guys have endless powers of empathy when the person being empathized with is a middle class white male.

By Lucy Phurre on Monday, December 6, 1999 - 07:35 pm:

    Here's the opinion of the property destruction people.
    Disclaimer: I include this in the interest of representing all views, as a first amendment exercise, and also as a curiosity.
    My decision to provide this information in no way constitutes an endorsement of their activities.

    N30 Black Bloc Communique
    by ACME Collective 10:48am Sat Dec 4 '99

    A communique from one section of the black bloc of N30 in Seattle

    On November 30, several groups of individuals in black bloc attacked
    various corporate targets in downtown Seattle. Among them were (to name
    just a few):

    Fidelity Investment (major investor in Occidental Petroleum, the bane of
    the U'wa tribe in Columbia) Bank of America, US Bancorp, Key Bank and
    Washington Mutual Bank (financial institutions key in the expansion of
    corporate repression) Old Navy, Banana Republic and the GAP (as Fisher
    family businesses, rapers of Northwest forest lands and sweatshop laborers)
    NikeTown and Levi's (whose overpriced products are made in sweatshops)
    McDonald's (slave-wage fast-food peddlers responsible for destruction of
    tropical rainforests for grazing land and slaughter of animals) Starbucks
    (peddlers of an addictive substance whose products are harvested at
    below-poverty wages by farmers who are forced to destroy their own forests
    in the process) Warner Bros. (media monopolists) Planet Hollywood (for
    being Planet Hollywood)

    This activity lasted for over 5 hours and involved the breaking of
    storefront windows and doors and defacing of facades. Slingshots, newspaper
    boxes, sledge hammers, mallets, crowbars and nail-pullers were used to
    strategically destroy corporate property and gain access (one of the three
    targeted Starbucks and Niketown were looted). Eggs filled with glass
    etching solution, paint-balls and spray-paint were also used.

    The black bloc was a loosely organized cluster of affinity groups and
    individuals who roamed around downtown, pulled this way by a vulnerable and
    significant storefront and that way by the sight of a police formation.
    Unlike the vast majority of activists who were pepper-sprayed, tear-gassed
    and shot at with rubber bullets on several occasions, most of our section
    of the black bloc escaped serious injury by remaining constantly in motion
    and avoiding engagement with the police. We buddied up, kept tight and
    watched each others' backs. Those attacked by federal thugs were
    un-arrested by quick-thinking and organized members of the black bloc. The
    sense of solidarity was awe-inspiring.


    Unfortunately, the presence and persistence of "peace police" was quite
    disturbing. On at least 6 separate occasions, so-called "non-violent"
    activists physically attacked individuals who targeted corporate property.
    Some even went so far as to stand in front of the Niketown super store and
    tackle and shove the black bloc away. Indeed, such self-described
    "peace-keepers" posed a much greater threat to individuals in the black
    bloc than the notoriously violent uniformed "peace-keepers" sanctioned by
    the state (undercover officers have even used the cover of the activist
    peace-keepers to ambush those who engage in corporate property destruction).


    Response to the black bloc has highlighted some of the contradictions and
    internal oppressions of the "nonviolent activist" community. Aside from the
    obvious hypocrisy of those who engaged in violence against black-clad and
    masked people (many of whom were harassed despite the fact that they never
    engaged in property destruction), there is the racism of privileged
    activists who can afford to ignore the violence perpetrated against the
    bulk of society and the natural world in the name of private property
    rights. Window-smashing has engaged and inspired many of the most oppressed
    members of Seattle's community more than any giant puppets or sea turtle
    costumes ever could (not to disparage the effectiveness of those tools in
    other communities).


    Here's a little something to dispel the myths that have been circulating
    about the N30 black bloc:

    1. "They are all a bunch of Eugene anarchists." While a few may be
    anarchists from Eugene, we hail from all over the United States, including
    Seattle. In any case, most of us are familiar with local issues in Seattle
    (for instance, the recent occupation of downtown by some of the most
    nefarious of multinational retailers).

    2. "They are all followers of John Zerzan." A lot of rumors have been
    circulating that we are followers of John Zerzan, an anarcho-primitivist
    author from Eugene who advocates property destruction. While some of us may
    appreciate his writings and analyses, he is in no sense our leader,
    directly, indirectly, philosophically or otherwise.

    3. "The mass public squat is the headquarters of the anarchists who
    destroyed property on November 30th." In reality, most of the people in the
    "Autonomous Zone" squat are residents of Seattle who have spent most of
    their time since its opening on the 28th in the squat. While they may know
    of one-another, the two groups are not co-extensive and in no case could
    the squat be considered the headquarters of people who destroyed property.

    4. "They escalated situations on the 30th, leading to the tear-gassing of
    passive, non-violent protesters." To answer this, we need only note that
    tear-gassing, pepper-spraying and the shooting of rubber bullets all began
    before the black blocs (as far as we know) started engaging in property
    destruction. In addition, we must resist the tendency to establish a causal
    relationship between police repression and protest in any form, whether it
    involved property destruction or not. The police are charged with
    protecting the interests of the wealthy few and the blame for the violence
    cannot be placed upon those who protest those interests.

    5. Conversely: "They acted in response to the police repression." While
    this might be a more positive representation of the black bloc, it is
    nevertheless false. We refuse to be misconstrued as a purely reactionary
    force. While the logic of the black bloc may not make sense to some, it is
    in any case a pro-active logic.

    6. "They are a bunch of angry adolescent boys." Aside from the fact that it
    belies a disturbing ageism and sexism, it is false. Property destruction is
    not merely macho rabble-rousing or testosterone-laden angst release. Nor is
    it displaced and reactionary anger. It is strategically and specifically
    targeted direct action against corporate interests.

    7. "They just want to fight." This is pretty absurd, and it conveniently
    ignores the eagerness of "peace police" to fight us. Of all the groups
    engaging in direct action, the black bloc was perhaps the least interested
    in engaging the authorities and we certainly had no interest in fighting
    with other anti-WTO activists (despite some rather strong disagreements
    over tactics).

    8. "They are a chaotic, disorganized and opportunistic mob." While many of
    us could surely spend days arguing over what "chaotic" means, we were
    certainly not disorganized. The organization may have been fluid and
    dynamic, but it was tight. As for the charge of opportunism, it would be
    hard to imagine who of the thousands in attendance _didn't_ take advantage
    of the opportunity created in Seattle to advance their agenda. The question
    becomes, then, whether or not we helped create that opportunity and most of
    us certainly did (which leads us to the next myth):

    9. "They don't know the issues" or "they aren't activists who've been
    working on this." While we may not be professional activists, we've all
    been working on this convergence in Seattle for months. Some of us did work
    in our home-towns and others came to Seattle months in advance to work on
    it. To be sure, we were responsible for many hundreds of people who came
    out on the streets on the 30th, only a very small minority of which had
    anything to do with the black bloc. Most of us have been studying the
    effects of the global economy, genetic engineering, resource extraction,
    transportation, labor practices, elimination of indigenous autonomy, animal
    rights and human rights and we've been doing activism on these issues for
    many years. We are neither ill-informed nor unexperienced.

    10. "Masked anarchists are anti-democratic and secretive because they hide
    their identities." Let's face it (with or without a mask)--we aren't living
    in a democracy right now. If this week has not made it plain enough, let us
    remind you--we are living in a police state. People tell us that if we
    really think that we're right, we wouldn't be hiding behind masks. "The
    truth will prevail" is the assertion. While this is a fine and noble goal,
    it does not jive with the present reality. Those who pose the greatest
    threat to the interests of Capital and State will be persecuted. Some
    pacifists would have us accept this persecution gleefully. Others would
    tell us that it is a worthy sacrifice. We are not so morose. Nor do we feel
    we have the privilege to accept persecution as a sacrifice: persecution to
    us is a daily inevitability and we treasure our few freedoms. To accept
    incarceration as a form of flattery betrays a large amount of "first world"
    privilege. We feel that an attack on private property is necessary if we
    are to rebuild a world which is useful, healthful and joyful for everyone.
    And this despite the fact that hypertrophied private property rights in
    this country translate into felony charges for any property destruction
    over $250.


    The primary purpose of this communique is to diffuse some of the aura of
    mystery that surrounds the black bloc and make some of its motivations more
    transparent, since our masks cannot be.


    We contend that property destruction is not a violent activity unless it
    destroys lives or causes pain in the process. By this definition, private
    property--especially corporate private property--is itself infinitely more
    violent than any action taken against it. Private property should be
    distinguished from personal property. The latter is based upon use while
    the former is based upon trade. The premise of personal property is that
    each of us has what s/he needs. The premise of private property is that
    each of us has something that someone else needs or wants.

    In a society based on private property rights, those who are able to accrue
    more of what others need or want have greater power. By extension, they
    wield greater control over what others perceive as needs and desires,
    usually in the interest of increasing profit to themselves. Advocates of
    "free trade" would like to see this process to its logical conclusion: a
    network of a few industry monopolists with ultimate control over the lives
    of the everyone else. Advocates of "fair trade" would like to see this
    process mitigated by government regulations meant to superficially impose
    basic humanitarian standards.

    As anarchists, we despise both positions. Private property--and capitalism,
    by extension--is intrinsically violent and repressive and cannot be
    reformed or mitigated. Whether the power of everyone is concentrated into
    the hands of a few corporate heads or diverted into a regulatory apparatus
    charged with mitigating the disasters of the latter, no one can be as free
    or as powerful as they could be in a non-hierarchical society. When we
    smash a window, we aim to destroy the thin veneer of legitimacy that
    surrounds private property rights. At the same time, we exorcise that set
    of violent and destructive social relationships which has been imbued in
    almost everything around us.

    By "destroying" private property, we convert its limited exchange value
    into an expanded use value. A storefront window becomes a vent to let some
    fresh air into the oppressive atmosphere of a retail outlet (at least until
    the police decide to tear-gas a nearby road blockade). A newspaper box
    becomes a tool for creating such vents or a small blockade for the
    reclamation of public space or an object to improve one's vantage point by
    standing on it.. A dumpster becomes an obstruction to a phalanx of rioting
    cops and a source of heat and light. A building facade becomes a message
    board to record brainstorm ideas for a better world. After N30, many people
    will never see a shop window or a hammer the same way again. The potential
    uses of an entire cityscape have increased a thousand-fold. The number of
    broken windows pales in comparison to the number broken spells--spells cast
    by a corporate hegemony to lull us into forgetfulness of all the violence
    committed in the name of private property rights and of all the potential
    of a society without them. Broken windows can be boarded up (with yet more
    waste of our forests) and eventually replaced, but the shattering of
    assumptions will hopefully persist for some time to come.

    Against Capital and State,

    the ACME Collective

    "Peasant Revolt!"
    Disclaimer: these observations and analyses represent only those of the
    ACME Collective and should not be construed to be representative of the
    rest of the black bloc on N30 or anyone else who engaged in riot or
    property destruction that day.

By Isolde on Monday, December 6, 1999 - 08:55 pm:

    Rhiannon--Rhiannon is indeed the Goddess of Hell and the Underworld, and she is traditionally regarded as the Goddess in her crone phase--for what that's worth.
    One more factoid randomly given unto the world.

By Gee on Tuesday, December 7, 1999 - 01:53 am:

    I wish I were a Goddess.

    I read somewhere that my name in reality is related to Demeter somehow, but I haven't seen that anywhere since then, so it's possible I may have misread.

    I used to hate my name. Some names I used to wish were mine: Daphnie, Kate, Amy, Wendy.

By Sarah on Tuesday, December 7, 1999 - 01:36 pm:

    #1. Today is the 58th anniversary of the bombing of Pearl Harbor.

    #2. Seattle police chief Norm Stamper (interesting last name) announced his resignation this morning.

    #3. here is a letter from Michael Moore. (people of *please* tell me you know who Michael Moore is):

    December 7, 1999

    Dear Friends,

    They never knew what hit them. They had assumed it would be business as usual, the way it had been for decades. Rich men gather, meet, decide the fate of the world, then return home to amass more wealth. It's the way it's always been.

    Until Seattle.

    On the morning of November 30, 1999, as government officials from 135 nations attempted to meet with the largest gathering ever of corporate executives, tens of thousands of average everyday working Americans shut down the city of Seattle and physically prohibited the hoped-for historic and official merger of the earth's political and business elite. I was there. I saw it first-hand. It was a sight I had never seen.

    But there it was. It was a massively representive body of Americans (and Canadians and Brits and French, etc.), all of us standing there on the streets between Pine and Pike -- Teamsters and turtle-lovers, grandparents and Gap clerks, the homeless and computer geeks, high school students and Alaskans, nuns and Jimmy Hoffa, Jr., airplane mechanics and caffeinated slaves from Microsoft. A few were professional protesters, but the majority looked as if this was their first exercise in a
    constitutionally protected redress of grievances. There were no "leaders," no "movement," no idea of what to do except stop the World Trade Organization from holding its secret meeting.

    Only the anarchists seemed organized. They even had their own anarchist marching band!

    The big labor march grew so large (that's what happens when so many workers are temps), it broke into six or seven separate marches, choking off the entire downtown area of Seattle.

    The beauty of all this is that it just happened. And why should anyone be surprised? After two decades of downsizing, wage stagnation, lost health benefits and the deliberate destruction of the middle class, the bubble sooner or later had to burst.

    The Fortune 500 brought this on themselves. If they hadn't been so greedy, if they had been willing to share even a sliver of the pie, then maybe Seattle wouldn't have happened.

    But the rich decided to take a piss on their biggest supporters -- their loyal workers, those Reagan Democrats -- and there's nothing uglier than a Teamster who voted for Nixon realizing he's been had.

    It was funny watching how the media presented the Battle of Seattle ("violent protests" was the mantra), and while a McDonald's and a Starbucks had their windows broken, the truth was that 99% of the participants destroyed no property and took great pains to treat the city of Seattle with endearing respect. Seattle is, after all, the only city in the history of this country to have a general strike (the entire town refused to show up for work back in 1919).

    The liberal mayor of Seattle, who at first did not want to be known as a West Coast Mayor Daley, eventually lost his cool and let his police force run amok. Tear gas and rubber bullets started flying toward the grandparents and the nuns. All civil liberties were suspended. They even had the audacity to use the term, "no protest zones." Hey, this is America, buddy! Seattle may be considered one of those groovy "Pacific Rim" cities, but that doesn't make it Singapore.

    Clinton came to town on the second day. He was so badgered by the protests, he ended up committing a
    sin so serious, it was like he was burning his draft card all over again. He completely changed his position and called on all WTO countries to enact laws prohibiting trade with nations that use children in sweatshops and do not honor the rights of all workers to organize a union. Whoa! You see, free trade is an absolute with the WTO (e.g., trade must never be used as a tool to accomplish "social" goals). So, for Clinton to climb the space needle (or was he chased up it?) and then declare that the human rights of workers were more important than making a buck, well, this was nothing short of Paul being knocked off his horse and seeing Jesus! You could almost hear the collective seething of the hundreds of CEOs gathered in Seattle. Their boy Bill -- the politician they had bought and paid for at so many coffee klatches and Lincoln Bedroom stays --- had betrayed them. You could almost see them reaching for their Palm Pilots to look up the phone number of The Jackal.

    It was a tremendous victory for everyone who lives from paycheck to paycheck. We owe a lot to those brave souls who got arrested and spent the rest of the week in jail.

    This is by no means the end of Big Business. The richest 1% still own 90% of everything in this world. They will not go down without a fight.

    But they have been put on notice that people from all walks of life have had their fill and will not let up until we have a fair, just, and democratic economy. This week, Seattle was the Lexington and Concord of a movement that now cannot be stopped. Mark it down, this last great, important date of the 20th century -- November 30, 1999 -- The Battle of Seattle, the day the people got tired of having to work a second job while fighting off the collection agents and decided it was time the pie was shared with the people who baked it.

    Michael Moore

By Patrick on Tuesday, December 7, 1999 - 01:45 pm:

    yes i know who michael moore is, I loved it when he stood on the corner of the 75 freeway in atlanta with an anti newt poster, or better yet the sodom-mobile...that was the best! Or when they sang outside of Jesse Helms house.....he rocks!

By mistaswine on Tuesday, December 7, 1999 - 02:34 pm:

    i saw part of "the big one" and thought michael moore's tactics were cheap, petty, and ineffectual. i don't see the point in dragging video cameras into corporate headquarters just to hassle some secretary, security guard, or lowly spokesperson with questions he/she obviously can't or won't answer. after all, these are the same people he's supposed to be "crusading" for. if he had any balls he would've camped out in front of high-ranking corporate executives' homes and ambushed them instead of the wage-slaves and month-to-month strugglers that toe the company line to keep roofs over their heads.

    but maybe he did. i dunno.

    i didn't bother to stick around and find out.

By Sarah on Tuesday, December 7, 1999 - 03:09 pm:

    Thursday, 12-2-99, 11:10 AM: Ireland's delegate to the WTO appears on KIRO radio with Dave Ross.

    Dave asks: can the WTO change laws passed by the U.S. Congress?

    Her answer: "Yes."

By cyst on Tuesday, December 7, 1999 - 03:09 pm:

    I bet most ceos of major corporations live in gated communities.

By _____ on Tuesday, December 7, 1999 - 03:13 pm:

    for those who don't know him, dave ross rocks.

By Antigone on Wednesday, December 8, 1999 - 12:01 am:

    The WTO change laws passed by the U.S. Congress?

    Good. That's as it should be.

    And Moore's letter rocks!

By Sarah on Wednesday, December 8, 1999 - 04:26 am:

    don't make me come over there.

By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, December 9, 1999 - 12:44 pm:

    Michael Moore is usually pretty good about finding out where CEO's live and harassing them directly.

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