that darn peace Do you have any regrets?: that darn peace

By Rowlf on Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 12:29 am:

By Nate on Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 03:15 am:

    i never make up my mind.

    so, rowlf, how credible is this source?

By Rowlf on Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 09:35 am:

    probably not in most peoples eyes, simply because he's Arab. there i said it.

    not you Nate, but I think a shitload of people look past anything other Arabs are saying to try and expose anything simply because of where they are from.

    I look at him as being possibly credible, possibly telling the truth, if only so because other people who have come out and said these sort of things have not been covered at all by US mainstream media. since this guy is being covered it perks up my ears a bit. Like the media is being forced to come out with this, like they were pretty much forced to admit other things that have 'hurt' the admin over the past few months... things they were supposed to report months before when they actually happened or were exposed.

    and you already know i am complete agreement with the idea that the US was unwilling to negotiate any compromise or back down no matter what situation. even if Saddam went into exile the US would have targeted and bombed areas. They just wouldnt use the 'war' chyron on CNN.

    anything is possible with this administration.


    speaking of which,

    I just watched the less baised, less inflammatory version of Michael Moores next movie on CBC the other night. Moore would be so pissed if it was on 20/20 or something, but that'll never happen. It was an hour documentary going through all the Saudi Arabia connections, getting people to basically admit and spill whats in the 28 blocked pages of the 9/11 report. Anyone who saw this would probably be persuaded, i think even you nate, and maybe even spunky. its Saudi Arabia, its all saudi arabia and has always been Saudi Arabia...

    and I've come to decide if the war on terrorism has been centered around Saudi Arabia i probably would have supported it, and I'm really frustrated right now knowing that nothing is going to be done. Because the administration and their interests have too much love for Saudi Arabia to fight it behind closed doors for risk of losing oil and other business deals, and if you took any military action, if you captured Mecca, well that would be it. The world would be over. its just not possible.

    and it all comes full circle, and you realize that even if Iraq did have Al Qaeda links or a future weapons program or whatever excuse the US is in for at the present time, its absolutely nothing compared to the real enemy that noone talks about.

    its scary.

By semillama on Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 09:58 am:

    I just found out my best friend is shipping out to Iraq in February.

    That's scary. How will I be able to watch the news and not freak out that the daily US casualty is him?

By J on Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 10:44 am:

    Try to talk him into going awol or acting like he's crazy.

By Spider on Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 12:32 pm:

    I wish you all were talking about the Northern Irish peace process instead, or this lively bit of testimony from Martin McGuinness at the Saville inquiry that could possibly lead to a jail sentence for contempt of court.

    I'm against violence and don't support the IRA, but I'm proud of him for being firm in not betraying his associates. And for being cheeky.

    13 A. Well, you said it is "The Green Book".

    14 Q. I am not being facetious, sir, I did not know what that meant, what is it and what is its status?

    16 A. I think it means the book is green.

    17 (Laughter in gallery)

    18 Q. Of course I accept that. Can you give the Tribunal any more help, I know it provokes laughter but quite often my questions do. They are not meant to.

    21 A. What kind of more help would you like?


    etc. Hee.

By Spider on Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 02:56 pm:

    Yay! Finally, the solution to killing political threads!

By The Watcher on Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 03:15 pm:

    sem, don't worry about your friend. It is very dangerous over there to be sure but he's actually in more danger over here.

    Just check out the crime watch in any major news paper in the US.

    Most major cities have higher murder rates than the casualty rates for all of Iraq.

By semillama on Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 04:35 pm:

    Oh come on, watcher, you know that's an utterly invalid comparison, and an OLD invalid comparison to that. Murder rates in the US are in no way comparable to the casualty rate in Iraq.

    For example, the national murder rate in 2001 was 5.6 murders per 100,000 people per annum. That works out to about 0.056% of the total population for that year.

    so far this year, 381 US servicepeople have lost their lives in Iraq, out of a population of 130,000. That's 0.293% of total population.

    Got it?

    get the picture?

By Antigone on Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 06:16 pm:

    "I've come to decide if the war on terrorism has been centered around Saudi Arabia i probably would have supported it, and I'm really frustrated right now knowing that nothing is going to be done."

    Rowlf, what exactly do you think the war in Iraq is all about?

    It's about fucking Saudi Arabia!

    We can't confront SA directly because it basically controlls the US economy. So we have to take a roundabout approach and get a new source of oil.

    Then we can fuck SA without starting a new world war. If we went straight for SA the rest of the world would not stand for it. Iraq was the target of convenience.

    Get it?

By Rowlf on Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 06:38 pm:

    I dont agree that if thats true that it means the US will actually fuck over SA later... I think its protecting SA, and the US under any leader, Dem or Rep, would continue to get oil from both sources as long as possible...

    if it really is some strategy to get to Saudi Arabia, despite all the very real lies and very real evil, thats absolfuckinglutely brilliant, however i dont think its true, as while it explains hiding SA information from the public and blocking other investigations, it still doesnt explain the years and years of business deals... I dont think Bush and co. are shifting resources, but protecting one and probably gaining another.

    and protecting their Saudi friends.

    what other way is there? cold turkey? isolating Saudi Arabia from the world? How much oil is in Alaska? would it be enough to hold the US over for a boycott to take place?

    Shit tiggy, this onion has too many layers. they're making me cry.

By Rowlf on Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 06:43 pm:

    "If we went straight for SA the rest of the world would not stand for it."

    because they need oil too and dont want the US in control of SA, or because of all the Muslims worldwide who'd flip out, or both?

    I actually think generally the PEOPLE of the world would be for holding Saudi Arabia accountable, but maybe not other world governments or corporations...

By Antigone on Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 07:14 pm:


    But, if it is SA behind 911 (and I think that's a good possibility) why did they do it?

    Interestingly enough, one of the announcements in Bush's 2001 State of the Union was about a $1.2 hydrogen fuel cell initiative.

By Antigone on Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 07:14 pm:

    Sorry. $1.2 billion. :)

By Sam the Eagle on Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 07:17 pm:

    You are all wierdos

By Antigone on Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 07:17 pm:

    Hey, I don't doubt that Bush is doing CYA with his ties to SA. But he could still be trying to fuck them over at the same time. Those aren't mutually exclusive.

By Rowlf on Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 09:19 pm:

    "But he could still be trying to fuck them over at the same time"

    if it was just him maybe, but you forget about Bush Sr. and the company he works for, and how the Bin ladens are his clients.... it aint just him, its family business.. its almost like Sopranos shit here....

    "But, if it is SA behind 911 (and I think that's a good possibility) why did they do it? "

    well thats a good question. its obvious that they KNEW that the money they were sending Osama was going towards terrorist training. Maybe they never thought something this big would happen? I mean, they were able to keep funding it for so long, and all those little (i shouldnt say little, but compared to 9/11 you know) terrorist acts in the US of the 90s... well they never really blew back in their face then...

    as well, you know, these Arab governments that don't have good sized armies like Iraq did, one reason to fund terrorists would be to maybe keep them from coming after you yourself... i mean the terrorists come to the government looking for money, what do they say, "No?".... they protect themselves...

    its possible the rest of the Bin Laden family were completely unwilling to support terrorism. I mean, they have so much to lose. But its pretty damned hard to dispute that they funded 9/11, and you can't dispute at all that they were protected by the US government from questioning, which is completely outrageous.

By Rowlf on Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 10:16 pm:


    and theres also the Unocoal pipeline and the fact that admin officials were on the record talking about invading Afghanistatan months before 9/11...

    should the Saudis have some deal with the Taliban, theres one reason to become involved right there. if we're to believe the current administration, they're all connected, right? buddy buddy.

    well maybe not, but the idea is out there. distinct possibility.

By Spider on Friday, November 7, 2003 - 11:34 am:

    You people suck. Won't somebody talk to me about what a jerk David Trimble is being, and what a moron I am for feeling proud of Martin McGuinness staying loyal to a bunch of murdering bastards? Did anyone catch that? I didn't even catch that, I was too awed by how belligerent the guy was being to his questioners.

    Hey, look over here! Here's another topic you can argue endlessly about and never win! Let's have some variety, for god's sake.

By kazu on Friday, November 7, 2003 - 12:25 pm:

    I assumed you were standing by the principle and not necessarily the person. I appreciated his cheekiness too.

    Is Trimble being a jerk these days? I try to keep up with this stuff, but don't have the time for the kind of reading that makes me feel prepared to argue/discuss. I don't condone the violence of the IRA, but I do have sympathy for some of the political aims of sinn fein at least in terms of how they themselves articulate them (everything sounds good on paper). But beyond that, I'm really not able to discuss the specifics in terms of people and events what's going on at this moment. I might not be giving myself much credit, but this is why I tend to stay away from these threads in general.

By Antigone on Friday, November 7, 2003 - 12:38 pm:

    No. Piss off.

By patrick on Friday, November 7, 2003 - 12:51 pm:

    2 muscle relxers + half bottle of wine + lots and lots of sleep = docile and pacified waffles.

    so no. im lucky to have mustered up the gusto to make this post.

By Spider on Friday, November 7, 2003 - 12:58 pm:

    Kazu, I feel your love.

    David Trimble is being a jerk because he's insisting the IRA be explicit when they say how many/what weapons they have decommissioned, even though the Good Friday Agreement clearly established that the IRA did *not* have to be explicit. So Trimble is throwing up his arms and threatening to go home (see here, and Iain Paisley's in the corner licking his chops, and I'm in my corner thinking, WTF do people have to be so difficult, and this goes for everybody.

    And that's it in a nutshell. I have to go -- time to escape a meeting!

By Spider on Friday, November 7, 2003 - 01:47 pm:

    See? Threadkill. I love it.

By kazu on Friday, November 7, 2003 - 02:17 pm:

    Emory's been all about the Irish lately. Mary Robinson is coming to speak and we just acquired bunches and bunches of Seamus Heaney's letters and personal papers.

By Spider on Friday, November 7, 2003 - 02:41 pm:

    I've investigated, and I was wrong -- the Good Friday Agreement says nothing explict about the IRA in any capacity. It does say that all parties who signed (which does not include the IRA, as they did not sign) are to use their influence to persuade all paramilitary groups to disarm.

    So where the hell did I read what I read that said or lead me to believe their language was acceptable?

    Anyway, Trimble's still a jerk for threatening to knock the elections off the rails.

    I've been reading Seamus Heaney's poetry recently. You can hear him read his poem "Casualty," about a friend of his killed after Bloody Sunday, here.

By Rowlf on Friday, November 7, 2003 - 05:52 pm:

    i say nothing as i know nothing

By semillama on Friday, November 7, 2003 - 07:03 pm:

    I have Heaney's Story of the Irish Race. It's a pretty good read.

    I don't know too much about it except that it's so freaking retard.

    although I would rather have the brits out of northern Ireland...

By wisper on Saturday, November 8, 2003 - 12:48 am:

    i havent had a smoke in a WEEK!

    i am in HELL!
    and i shall break soon.

By kazu on Saturday, November 8, 2003 - 12:55 am:

    I've got a strange cat wandering around my apartment. he's a cutie. I don't want to let him back out.

By Spider on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 09:58 am:

    Retard or retarded?

    I've come to the conclusion that the whole of the Troubles could be summed up as people being stubborn and/or arrogant, and if everyone just lightened up and loved each other, everything would be okay.

    Shoot, somebody make me an ambassador, quick.

By Spider on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 02:50 pm:

    More amusing snark:

    Q. Alive and well, so far as you know?

    A. He is alive.

    Q. You do not know if he is well?

    A. It is a matter of opinion. I do not know. I would not know his medical history.

    Q. Do you still know him?

    A. Yes.

    Q. Do you know if he is available, as far as you know, putting his medical history and your lovely jokes about it apart, do you know if he is available to come here to give evidence?

    A. I do not know.

    Q. You do not?

    A. No.


    Q. Is Don Boyle a friend of yours?

    A. Yes.

    Q. A close friend?

    A. Yes.

    Q. When did you last see him?

    A. I am not sure how relevant this is to this Inquiry, when I last saw my friends.

    Q. Would you mind answering?

    A. I do mind answering, yes. I do not ask you when you last saw your friends. What difference does it make when I last saw him?

    Q. I want to know whether he is going to be able to come to assist us?

    A. You are going to have to ask him; I do not know.

    Q. What did you last see him?

    A. What is it to do with you?

    Q. When did you last see him, answer that?

    A. I am not answering when I last saw my friend, I am not getting into my private life at this point in time.

    Q. Is the subject of Don Boyle one which you find a little embarrassing?

    A. No, I find you annoying, if you want to put it bluntly. I am not prepared to talk about my present life.


    I hope that, if I ever happen to be cross-examined in court, I am able to be so feisty.

By Lapis on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 04:17 pm:

    Cross-examinations are brutal. The attourneys will bring up anything they can to discredit you. When I was on the jury, they brought up divorces, addictions and theft to make the claimants slip up.

By The Watcher on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 02:45 pm:


    Are you still in hell?

    I'm trying to quit the slow cut down to nothing way. I don't want to go that crazy.

    And, I think cold turkey would cause more problems than the way I'm going right now.

By V.v. on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 08:24 pm:

    Watcher,you think you got problems with cigs?last week i went from 130 down to 100 cigs a day,yet i still want to kill people,this is going to be tough.If i beat cigs,next i have to kill booze (1 or 2 bots of vodka EVERY night)you dont want to be me!

By wisper on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 01:11 am:

    V.v, i think that may be why you're having a hard time in the love department?
    You want kids, you gotta cut that shit out.

    *holy shit, it just erased my entire post.*

    Anyhoo, yes watcher, i'm still quitting, although i did end up breaking, as promised, and i bought a pack 3 days after i wrote that.
    as told here.

    I'm not so bad off, i'm a very casual smoker so it takes me about 4 days to finish a pack by myself. i find that as long as i can mooch one lone smoke a week i don't go crazy.
    At least that's what worked best for me when i quit for 8 months straight a few years ago (longest quit ever).

    But i was on the pill at the time, so i had a great deal of incentive. Every time i finished one i got really paraniod about blood clots, to the point that i thought i could feel them happening in my arms and hands.....oh nevermind. I was on the pill, so i was crazy anyway. Quitting smoking at the same time didn't help me.

    So i know exactly what i need to do to quit this time. I know that when i think i need to smoke, i really only want a few puffs, not a whole damn cig or a pack of 25, so i don't have to break and buy some, just a few puffs is enough. Nothing to feel bad about.
    That's easy to do.

    Whatever i do, this is all in preparation for my deadline of December 21st, 2004. That will be ten years, and i DONT want to be smoking for ten years. (Yes, i know the exact day, sad) That idea makes me feel terrible and sick.
    And old.

    It's hardest when i'm driving long distances. I was a chain smoker in the car.

    But you had a heart attack, buddy! Quick with the quit!

By The Watcher on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 03:09 pm:

    I'm working on it.

    Like you the car was the place where I smoked the most.

    My wife's already "mentioned" I'm agitated all the time. And, the least little thing makes me grumpy and snappy.

    I just have to work at it one day at a time. I don't think it will take me a year either.

By eri on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 04:01 pm:

    Good luck with that Watcher. My longest quit was 8 months. I have been smoking for 15 years now and I feel it. I have been debating quitting a lot lately too. Just haven't done anything about it yet. Too much other shit to deal with right now.

    Take care of you Watcher, and remember that once the nicotine is cleaned out of your system that the crankiness and moodiness will go away. It is temporary. It's a bitch when you go thru it but it does go away.

By The Watcher on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 06:31 pm:

    I know. I told my wife that too.

By wisper on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 06:58 pm:

    the fun part is about 2 or 3 weeks in, when all the shit in your lungs starts to come out, and it's just coughing and hacking it up for a good long time.

    The other thing that helps me is remembering that since i'm not used to them anymore, even if i do break and have a smoke now, it will taste stale and strange, and even be painfull.
    So i wouldn't enjoy it anyway. It's just a memory.
    it's always the same.

    that helps.

    and my clothes smell nice!

By J on Sunday, November 23, 2003 - 12:56 pm:

By wisper on Sunday, November 23, 2003 - 06:40 pm:

    that thing is like some twisted school project:
    How many over-used culture references can you cram into one flash clip?

By J on Friday, December 5, 2003 - 10:55 pm:

    I don't know,it's gone now.

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