Hell No

sorabji.com: Do you have any regrets?: Hell No

By spunky on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 11:34 am:

    "I feel comfortable in my skin," Spears said. "I think it's an OK thing to express yourself, and be the way you want to be," Spears said. "I mean, I wouldn't walk into a club or a party like that. But I think, you know, I think it's fine."

    "You know what, when I was younger, Ö I used to run around my house, naked, when I was 13," Spears said. "And people, my dad would be like, I was just very like, free."


    I get upset when Hayley walks into the living room butt naked to get a towel.......

By spunky on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 11:42 am:

    when is she going to do a porn?

    I guess her music career has to flop first.

By TBone on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:01 pm:

    What's wrong with walking around naked in your home?
    And who keeps towels in the living room?
    If she did porn, it would destroy the vibrant industry in fake Britney Spears porn.

By spunky on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:04 pm:

    when they just came out of the dryer and are in the laundry basket in the living room.

    I don't know, somehting about running around nekked in front of your daddy kind of bothers me

By Spider on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:04 pm:

    We're living in a golden age for skanky blonde girls.

By heather on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:26 pm:

    same questions as tbone


By kazu on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:30 pm:

    I think little girls and boys should be comfortable walking around nakers in front of their parents.

    Or at least, parents should be comfortable with their kids being nakers.

    Not judging, Spukems, just my opinion.

By patrick on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:31 pm:

    spunk. its obvious. J Lo, Brittany and all the rest ....they're so freakin untalented that they have to pick up the slack with their tits and ass.

    also, don't go giving your kids your complexes. there's nothing wrong with walking around the house naked in front of immediate family to get a towel. they're kids, free from prejiduce, bias and complexes about their bodies. let them enjoy it while they still can.

By kazu on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:33 pm:

    you know, on a quick read, the placement of "source" on your post makes it look like you are referencing the part about Hayley, which is funny. Like we were going to get a link to your site of a picture of you looking upset or something, not of Hayley or anything.

By Spider on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:39 pm:

    I think there's a difference between a little girl walking around naked and a 13-year-old. And I don't think Spunky is giving his daughter a complex by being uncomfortable with her nakedness. If he told her she was filthy or something, yeah, but just saying, "hey could you please put some clothes on?" isn't bad.

By patrick on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:44 pm:

    spunk did your parents scold you for roaming the house naked?

By spunky on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:44 pm:

    Modesty does not equal complex.

    I am trying to teach them what is appropriate.
    It is a difficult to navigate between teaching modesty while also teaching them not to be ashamed of thier bodies, or thinking that being nude is nasty.
    I am legally Hayley's step dad, and it seems inappropriate for her to run around nekked in front of me. Eri says I am funny about those things, but I would prefer to keep any away from any suggestions of an inappropriate relationship between myself and my daughters. Frankly, I would prefer eri to run around nude all the time, and dont honestly care, personally, if the girls did as well, but I am also trying to raise girls that wont end up pregnant at 13.
    We live in an apparment complex, and everyone can see right into our living room from the parking lot. Hayley likes to change in her bed room with her bed room blinds wide open, and you can see right into her room from the parking lot as well.

By kazu on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:47 pm:

    Actually, I think the subtleties of being uncomfortable can be pretty damaging...not in an abusive sort of way, but can send negative signals. Like being quiet, but always looking away quickly and also the tone of the request can be hurtful over time.

    Not that anyone should have to do a 180 and adopty some sort of nudist-commune-type sensibility or anything. Or that parents can be patient with everything, just that repeated reactions focused on particular behaviors can have a negative effect.

    And by kids, I meant kids/not-preteens and so on.

By spunky on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:52 pm:

    I do not recall walking around nude when I was a kid, but I do recall being caught by my mom when I was 13 flogging the dolphin.


    Sex was a weird subject growing up.

    When I asked how babies are made, mom's response was "You know how dogs do it?" "Yes" "Well, you know how humans do it then". That was the first time "Doggie Style" occured to me. I was 11.
    My mom also told me that "Oral sex is not dirty when you are married". Just out of the blue, just like that. I was 14 then. She also told me that her and dad actually got married two months before the ceremony, under the stars in a field.
    That when couples do that, then they are married in the eyes of God. Translation: You were concieved two months before we got married.

    Then I was eighteen I overheard my parents arguing.
    My dad was saying "All I wanted to do was snuggle up with you because it was cold, and you bolted out of bed like a scared 8 year old".

By patrick on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:52 pm:

    as a kid i pulled my pants down frequently and had that talk with my mom too many times to remember. as an adult as well (sheeesh), i've had a few instances of semi-public streaking and even worse than me, is the wife when she gets a bug up her ass. especially since we have a fairly private backyard. a couple of bottles of wine and said bug, and she's doing cartwheel's naked.

    i think its hilarious.

    just a few months ago, i saw a dad chasing his....what.....no more than 4 or 5 year old daughter down the street. she was stark naked. i have no idea what the hell was going on, they both were laughing as it seemed he had been talking to his a neighbor and maybe she darted out of the house. i laughed my ass off.

    i don't think being comfortable with your body = slut at 13. that sounds like some residual bible-thumpin bullshit spunk. if anything doesnt it always seem like the opposite proves true? its always the preacher's daughter gettin knocked up, or known for having loose garters.

By kazu on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:53 pm:

    I'm pretty sure that if a girl get pregnant at 13, it wasn't because he parents let her walk around nakers when she was young.

    And yes, teaching modesty is good, but it can have disasterous effects if it focuses on the BAD things that can happen because of what girls/boys do.

    That is just a general opinion.

    And I don't think an appropriate father/daughter relationship precludes little girls from being naked. Of course, she should be careful about leaving her blinds open, but it seems that should be the focus and not the nakers part.

    Anyway, again, no judgements okay spunk. Just making sure.

By kazu on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:54 pm:

    Just making sure that you don't take my opinions that way.

By TBone on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:55 pm:

    People being able to see in is, of course a different matter.
    And different families have different ideas of what is 'appropriate' at home.
    That's all fine.
    But wandering the house naked has nothing to do with getting pregnant at 13. I doubt there's much connection at all between how comfortable someone is being naked and their likelihood to have unprotected sex at 13. Or any sex at all..
    In fact, I would hypothesize that girls who get pregnant at a young age are more likely to have complexes about their bodies than average.
    Being comfortable with your body helps you to better respect it as well.
    And for the record, I think more women should change in front of unobstructed windows. Not 13-year-olds as such, but it's best to teach good habits early.

By spunky on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 01:13 pm:

    really, nudity at home does not equal pregnant at 13. Not sure why I really equated the two....

    I still support the idea of eri running around nude after the kids are in bed.

By TBone on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 01:34 pm:

    Good to hear.
    Remember to open the blinds.

By eri on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 02:41 pm:

    I do love to run around nekked after the kids are in bed. They are getting used to seeing me nekked and starting to understand it's OK, and just being comfortable with my own body (still working on that one).

    Oh, and I don't always close all of the blinds :)

    I don't want the kids to grow up and think they have to hide their bodies, that their bodies are ugly or anything like that. That's what I got to deal with....you have to be modest, you have to hide your body, cuz nobody wants to see your body except perverts and rapists and child molesters......I am still working on being comfortable with my body now. I don't want my girls to feel like there is something wrong with their bodies. I know how hard it is to move past that. I am still not completely past it.

By Rowlf on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 06:38 pm:

    one day britney spears will kill herself.

    you heard it here first.

By spunky on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 08:44 pm:

    Sometimes "we" leave the blinds open...

    I really am not tyring to teach them that thier bodies are wrong. Seriously. I just dont want them wandering around nude, I am personally not comfortable with it in my house.

    And I understand eri's feelings on it, her mom thrived on tearing her down, over everyting.

    I am not saying to the girls "cover that nasty shit up" or "You dirty, filthy slut, go put some clothes on" Instead I am saying "hey, put something on, would you?".

By agatha on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 11:33 am:

    grumble grumble

By Spider on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 11:51 am:

    I don't think there's anything wrong with that, Spunky, and it's nobody else's place to tell you you're doing something wrong. Everyone raises their children in their own way. You're not shaming them or abusing them. There is nothing psychologically damaging about asking your children to be clothed when they walk around the house. For crying out loud.

By heather on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 01:46 pm:

    grumble grumble

    part 2

By patrick on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 01:52 pm:

    grumble grumble gurble garble grumble some more.

By Nate on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 02:02 pm:

    i was damaged as a child by the indidysnvr of myrr.

    i was actually going to say something else, but not having my fingers on the right keys actually turned out better.

    i don't think anything that spunk could do will defeat his girls' body image in any way that could compare to the goddamn popluar culture's women destroying women campaign.

    and my penis is not a weapon.

    thank you.

By heather on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 02:19 pm:

    it is easy to feel shameful as a child

    this may not be "damage" to some, but i sure
    as hell wish i didn't have it

    also- it's not only about body image, to say the

    not that i'm saying that spunk is being "wrong"
    either. he's just manisfesting the same
    discomfort that he was taught in some way.

By sarah on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 03:05 pm:

    neither of my parents ever had any rules about being naked. i saw both of them naked my whole life, and vice versa. as i got older i saw them naked less frequently, but it never became an issue.

    even today don't have a problem with my dad seeing me naked. last few times i visited hawaii i was staying with him. he sleeps on the futon on the living room and let's me have his bed. sometimes i'll be in there changing my clothes or getting out of my swimsuit and not knowing what i'm doing he'll just walk in to get something or do something. and it's totally no big deal. neither of us feel embarrassed. he doesn't hurry and shut the door, and i don't hurry up to cover myself. we just go about our business.

    i think my mom wouldn't feel comfortable with me seeing her naked now, but only because the last time i saw her she mentioned to me how disappointed she is that her body is becoming an old woman's body.

    my dad wiped my ass for the first few years of my life, for chrissakes. and mine certainly is not the first nor the last naked female body he's seen.

By patrick on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 03:47 pm:

    i never saw my parents naked. now, my grandfather, him being more like a father in many regards, when whe would take me to the covered pool in the winter, or to the golf course in the summer, afterwards we would shower. but these are large locker room type showers. But it wasnt a thing, you know. As far as my mom, and other female members of my family. They're all pretty modest.

    And in many regards, at least around family, i am too, because of that upbringing. There arent any family members (aside from the wife and the kid) Im comfortable with being naked, as if Im changing clothes or sharing a bathroom. The underwear is the limit once reaching a certain age...say like 4. Up to 4 years of age, its cute.

    I hope to change that with my immediate family. I've known others, like sarah's family where its just a non-issue. I've always admired that. Hell, even women are far more relaxed than men. Whenever the wife does a showing of her collection and what not, tits and ass are all over the place. (Most) Women are more at ease, at least around other women.

    I admit to even feeling like spunk at times around the baby. I wonder when and if I'll reach the point where I might not want to go from the bath to the bedroom nekid. But I have to stop myself because those are my issues, not hers.

    So in my case, i understand more than im letting on, but thats primarily due to the fact that Im trying to over come the small subtle issues imposed upon me.

    After a few a drinks and around some close friends, thats a different story all together.

By heather on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 04:32 pm:

    i must be the brokenest

    even with drinks and all and what not i don't
    want very much to get naked around anyone
    and i never have

By semillama on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 04:36 pm:

    I've lost track of how many of my friends i've seen naked, but then again, that number would be much less if it weren't for the existence of saunas.

By sarah on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 04:43 pm:

    saunas! hah! that's so UP :)

    it seems obvious to me that it's not a body/naked issue but a sexuality issue. that nakedness is associated with sexuality. i think by my parents not making an issue out of nudity, i never got the two mixed up. but then again, my parents never made sexuality an issue either, other than helping me make safe and healthy choices by filling me in on all the facts and being open to talking about it whenever.

    i've seen almost all of my hawaii friends naked at least once, but most of them several times. sweatlodges on the beach, camping, skinny dipping, hottubbing.

    again, totally not an issue.

    here in austin though i've not seen anyone naked except the men i've had sex with. my roommate doesn't walk around naked, but i will.

    it's not that i'm *looking* for opportunities to get naked in front of others, but if the occassion calls for it, there's no issue, no second guessing. i guess i've pretty much always felt that way (except in junior high during gym class, but that's different). everybody has a body, they're all different, none perfect, it's all good.

By sarah on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 04:53 pm:

    which reminds me of glen, actually.

    glen is a guy i used to date. he definitely had no nudity issues or sexuality issues. he is very much a naturalist, and has no body stuff issues (and he used to be a republican!)

    glen has a six year old daughter who stays with him every other weekend. well, one weekend this summer he noticed that she had developed a yeast infection (our guess was that it came from staying in her wet bathing suits too long after swimming class and eating a diet high in sugar). so upon his request i went down to the health food store and bought some high-bacteria yogurt.

    i thought he was going to apply it to her yeast infection, but he wouldn't do it because he was afraid that if his daughter mentioned it to her mother, that she'd flip out and call the authorities. so glen had her eat the yogurt instead, and then talked to his daughter's mother about the yeast infection when he dropped her off at her house.

    we both thought it was ridiculous that he couldn't feel comfortable about treating his daughter for a yeast infection without being afraid of getting in trouble. but unfortunately that's the way it is, at least with his daughter's mother. i know my mother never would have had a problem with it if my dad had wanted to do that to me when i was six.

By kazu on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 05:23 pm:

    I don't mind changing in front of people, but I really hate
    *being* naked unless the task at hand requires nudity. I
    don't do skinny dipping or saunas or play poker or

    I also hate wearing bathing suits but that's a whole
    other story. When I was a lifeguard/swim teacher I was
    pretty comfortable but not so much anymore.

    I have issues.

By kazu on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 05:33 pm:

    Though I'd take nekkid pictures if i trusted the artist. I
    might want a few months advance notice though.

    The thing is, I'd go to the gym locker room and see
    women nakers or part nakers and see women who
    were clearly larger/rounder (whatever) than I am and I
    thought they looked fine...wonderful even. Yet there is
    no way in hell I will be able to see myself like that, that
    somehow my body doesn't look like that.

    What's frustrating is that I KNOW it's not true. It's there,
    in its in my brain accepted as a fact. But whatever it
    takes to attain the level of comfort required to see what I
    see of others (or what others see of me) is not there.

    Anyway, I am past the *need* to wear baggy clothing
    and finally making it out of the zone where i wouldn't
    wear clothing that touched my skin so maybe I can get
    out of this other zone, but I don't think I'd like to be able
    to just *hang out* and be nakers with friends. Aside
    from the comfort thing, it just doesn't sound very

By sarah on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 06:18 pm:

    okay folks, how is this for fucking weird??

    i have not heard from glen in at least 6 weeks. this is the first time i've brought his name up since then.

    he *just now* called me, said he was thinking about me and was sorry he was out of touch.

    and i was like, wow, i was just talking about you...

    [twilight zone music]

By patrick on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 06:25 pm:

    maybe he's a troll around here.

By eri on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 06:36 pm:

    That is odd Sarah.

    Nudity wasn't a big deal when I grew up. Seeing my parents naked in everyday normal situations (changing or in bathroom or whatever) was extremely common. I will admit that as I got older I saw my father naked less and less, but that's it. And my father has a bad habit of opening the door as he knocks so I can't tell you how many times he has seen me naked. No big deal.

    I don't get naked around my friends (except the occasional skinny dipping in the hot tub or something like that) which is almost never. I do change clothes in front of friends, but we always raid each others wardrobes when we go out. And we aren't naked, just in our undies.

    But I am still trying to work through all of those insecurities about my body, not that I hate how I look, cuz I think for someone who is almost 30 and has been pregnant 7 times I look pretty damned good. (not trying to be conceited, seriously). But I have grown up under the teachings that your naked body is dirty and sex is bad blah blah blah.....catholic school sucked. The body dirty thing was something pounded into our heads at catholic school and ex boyfriends, and then the sex thing is from my parents.

    I have been dilligently working on both issues. I am not embarrassed by my body, and that is a new thing for me. I am even starting to get over my scar (even though I noticed recently it shows up in pictures and all but glows). I run around without clothing as often as I possibly can now and I feel totally natural and at ease with it. I actually enjoy it and don't link it to sex in any way. Spunky is the only person whom I have been naked in front of a camera with, but there are some others I would be comfortable with.

    I just don't want my kids to end up with my hang ups. I worry about that.

By Lapis on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 06:45 pm:

    I don't do nekkid in front of cameras, not knowingly anyway.

    Though I did pose for a life-drawing session once: two hours with a Princess Leia wig and a lightsaber.

    Other than that, all nudity is solo or sexual. I'd like to live alone so that I could feel comfortable walking around my place without making the effort of finding clothing or grabbing a sheet. Sometimes I'll sit at the computer in just a bathrobe but that's it.

By spunky on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 09:49 pm:

    like who, hon?

    I just want to repeat myself:

    I do NOT think NUDITY=SEX

    I do NOT think being nude is DIRTY.

    I still absolutely beleive it is inappropriate for a teen age daughter to run around nude in front of her daddy. Not sister/bestfriend/mother/etc

    Her dad.

    And if I do not wish to see my teenage daughter naked in my house, am I not allowed the freedom from that discomfort? Is it a horrid thing to teach your daughter to be considerate of other's feelings? To respect the wishes of the authority figure?

    As long as I dont sit there and tell her that she needs to cover her "dirty pillows" or that she is nasty for being naked, then how is it damaging to her self esteem if I simply said "honey, I wish you would cover up when I am around"?

By heather on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 10:50 pm:

    it's not wrong, it's just that you're showing that
    you are uncomfortable being around her when
    she's naked. and what's wrong with being
    naked? in a child's mind it must mean that
    there is *something* wrong/taboo about being
    naked- even if just around your dad.

    you make it into something it's not

    not that i don't have plenty of *naked* issues

By dave. on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 11:48 pm:

    ""dirty pillows""?

By kazu on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 12:36 am:

    Is Hayley a teenager?

    Where have I been?

By Nate on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 04:12 am:

    what the hell are dirty pillows?

    jesus christ the ghetto birds are all over the place tonight.

    must be lookin for the murder.

    i have very little problem with nudity. i have other problems to compensate, though.

By spunky on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 08:30 am:

    Watch Carrie and you will understand the term "dirty pillows"

    "They're all going to laugh at you".

    She is not a teen, yet, but she has started down the path to the dark side.

By semillama on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 10:11 am:

    Well, as long as you can articulate why you are uncomfortable with your kids nudity and tell them why you think it's inappropriate, then everythings kosher.

    I wonder how I will deal with it. Probably tell thenm that all the morons out there are repressed and evil and will drag them down if they ever knew how free they are. After all, the ones who hate our freedoms the most like to pass themselves off as the most true-blue Americans ever.

By kazu on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 10:36 am:

    teenagers give me hives. not individuals, mostly when they are in groups. that's why I never go to the mall.

By spunky on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 10:52 am:

    Good grief.

    Sem, there have to be lines that should not be crossed.

    Or is it ok to kill someone because they have something you want? After all, you are free to do what you want, and the morons out there with morals will just drag you down and repress you.

    Over Dramatic? No. You have to have boundaries. You have to have lines, and establish them early.
    To teach them that a) respect other's feelings b) there are laws and rules you have to respect and c) while you should have the freedom to dress as you want, there are sickos out there that WILL hurt you.

    After all, you SHOULD have the freedom to walk around Central Park at night, stark naked except for the hundred dollar bills taped to your tits, right? You have that right to do that, right?
    Youíre free to dress as you please, right?

    Or should common sense come into play?

    I want them to learn they are beautiful, and it is not necessary to flash it all over town to prove it. I want them to have so much confidence in themselves and an understanding of the beauty they posses that they reserve it for someone special, who deserves it.

    I want them to understand that while you SHOULD be free to walk around with money taped to your shirt, there are creeps out there that will kill you for a hamburger.

    I do not want to raise naive children, sheltered children. I want them to know what a horrible world they live in. I want them to understand that while it would be nice if we could all just sit around, holding hands and sing songs, it just is not that way. No matter how much we may want it to be that way, it never will be. Reality is not fair. And it never will be. And there is no use hiding that fact from them. Daddy cannot send them out with gold cards and billions of dollars. They are going to have to learn to earn it, and learn to protect it.

    Plus, dammit, I donít think I am repressive because I feel uncomfortable with seeing my developing daughter naked. That is not for me to see. I have no use for that, and plain do not want to see it. And if they take that to mean their bodies are nasty, then I have failed to raise them properly. I donít want them being that weak. I donít want them being that sensitive.

    If they interpret "Honey, I would prefer you put something on I am around" as meaning that nudity is nasty, then we have a huge problem. My children are not going to be mentally equipped to deal with the harsh realities of this world.

By semillama on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 11:06 am:

    but why isn't it for you to see? You haven't explained that. Unless you are trying to equate yourself with all the creeps and weirdos...

By spunky on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 11:10 am:

    Now, I want to say that there is a internal conflict on this issue as well.

    When Mikayla was first born, they had her under this heat lamp, and they took the first picture of her ever.
    I wanted a picture of her exactly as she came into this world, stark naked and red as a beet.
    My mom thought the picture was horrible because she was totally nude, and laying on her back, with her legs exacly as all infants lay on their back, with their legs bowed.
    I had no problems with it, nor do I have any problems with pictures of babies or toddlers in the tub.

By spunky on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 11:12 am:

    "but why isn't it for you to see?"

    I cannot really answer that one.
    I don't know, it is just a feeling inside me that says "This is wrong, you should not see your developing daughter nude".
    I can't pin it down or explain why.

By semillama on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 11:18 am:

    Well, hopefully you know that I'm not asking just to pin you down, but perhaps a simple explanation (if you ever have to give one to someone who counts) would be that it was just the way you were raised. I think it's probably common for American fathers to feel uncomfortable around their naked daughters because our society conditions people to associate nudity with sex. and that runs smack into the incest taboo and there you are.

By kazu on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 11:21 am:

    How would you feel if Hayley got her period when Eri wasn't home? I'm just curious.

    This is totally different, but I know some guys who are totally freaked out about it. Of course, these are guys without kids who just assume they would freak out when, if actually faced with it, might be only a little weirded out.

    My mother wasn't home when I got mine, but I'd read all the Judy Blume stuff and had a little starter kit so I just took care of my own business until she got back.

By spunky on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 11:23 am:

    I am certain that is it, because my mom is a FREAK about such things, and I am WAY liberal compared to my mom, ask Eri.

    I dont think anyone was attacking me, for the record, and this has been a pretty productive discussion thus far. Nice change.

By spunky on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 11:27 am:

    "How would you feel if Hayley got her period when Eri wasn't home?"

    Good question. I would be a bumbling idiot, and have no clue what to do.

    And please remember, legally Hayley is my STEP daughter, so that really wrenches things up. She is not technically my blood daughter, so I would prefer to distance myself from any appearances of sexuality between the two of us.

    I really do not regard her as a step daughter, but I have to remind myself of that every once in a while.
    I am just really greatful her real father is not part of her life, because then that would introduce all kinds of other akwardness.

By Spider on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 11:32 am:

    I want to say that I wish I had a father like Spunky who respected my privacy. I'm the only 'modest' one in my family, and my parents took the lock off my bedroom door when I was 13, and never knocked before they came in, and laughed at me when I was embarrassed, and basically demanded that I feel it's okay to see each other naked. Which, you know, doesn't work.

    I just want to point out that it is indeed good and healthy to accept your body and feel comfortable changing in front of your family, but if someone's not like that -- because of natural or unnatural modesty -- you need to respect that, too. If you think it's unfortunate that someone isn't as free with their nakedness as you are, you're entitled to your opinion, but it's not your place to ask/persuade/demand/brow-beat that person into coming around and seeing it your way. (I mean "you" in general, too...and the "someone" could be anyone in relation to you: your kid, your spouse, your friend, etc.) Let the person be.

By kazu on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 11:35 am:

    You are her "real" father. :)

    My mother was terrible about talking about this stuff with us. She gave me books on everything, so it could have been worse I guess.

    She refused to talk about birth control and blew it off telling my father, "she doesn't need to know THAT!" Finally he told me about condoms. At the time I was dating one of my now-gay exboyfriends. I'm also lucky that I had a really great doctor who made me very comfortable when I told her so I could get all that pap smear crap out of the way and that my highschool had good sex education. Straight up, "we think you are too young but here are the facts."

By spunky on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 11:38 am:

    eri's dad just barges in. Even after eri and I got married and were living in their basement appartment for a couple of months, he would knock WHILE he was opening the door. And this was a small apartment. Most nights we were on the couch or living room floor, because Hayley was in a crib in the same bed room as us, and she was, what 2 or 3?
    And the vents above the bed were great for tranporting sounds.....

By kazu on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 11:43 am:

    My mom wouldn't let Sem and I sleep in the same bed when we first got together and he came to visit me at home. I cried about it to my stepfather.

    It was so stupid. I wanted to say to her, "you know it's really just about wanting to sleep next to him...we are going to have plenty of sex otherwise."

    That would have been bad.

    Even this past summer she was all bent out of shape because at that point, there was only one bed for us to sleep on.

    My stepfather had to tell her not to think about it.

By spunky on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 11:46 am:

    That's funny. My mom was exactly the same way. We were out there less then a month before the wedding, and my mom still insisted we slept in seperate beds. So I shared the bed with my brother downstairs and eri got to sleep in a bed right across the hall from my partents.

By kazu on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 11:51 am:

    Well, it became tempting (for his second visit during the summer we couldn't sleep together) to say, "Andy's mom's better. Not only did she let us sleep together, but she let us sleep in her bed!"

    My poor mother is so easily tormented. My brother lives with his fiancee, even before they were engaged and she didn't mind it. She's pretty liberal about the idea of pre-marital sex but not in her own house.

    Spider, that story totally sucks. Nothing bothers me more than when parents don't respect their kid's privacy especially since that sets up the perfect contrast to when they really need to invade their privacy so that kids can learn (even if they don't believe it at the time) that the reason they went through their rooms/bags was because they were concerned and not because it was privacy-invasion-as-usual.

By spunky on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 11:53 am:


By spunky on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 11:56 am:

    i couldn't torment my mom like that.
    I am a strong believer in the "Don't poke the bear" philosphy.

By kazu on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 12:13 pm:

    Well, I don't but my stepfather does. I mean, he's not terrible. He doesn't play with her worst insecurities. She really had a hard time with the idea of me dating women and he teased her by saying things like,

    "Do you think Elizabeth is in love with Gretchen?" (to a friend of mine that dropped by while I was at college) My mom would just sit there and glare at him.

    He's got this lesbian friend at work who he kind of acts as a father-figure/mentor to and while she was still single said to me, while the three of us were eating,

    "hey, maybe I can set YOU up with so and so..." She just sat and glared at him.

    Me mum likes gay people, just not the lesbain that I would have been dating, dig? When they had the aforementioned mentee and her new partner over for dinner, my mom called me up, excited to tell me, "we are having so and so and her, um her, her..."

    "her parnter, mum?"

    "yes. we are having them over for dinner."

    "are you sure you know what to feed them?"

By Spider on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 12:23 pm:

    I have a lot to say, but I'm not comfortable writing it from work.

    The bottom line is, don't invade. I mean that in the military/violent sense. Don't puncture your kids' personalities. Let them be who they are, and only step in when [whatever the issue] is posing a threat to their safety or interfering with their quality of life. Or when they ask you for your help. Otherwise, hands off.

    But I fear having kids because I see a pattern of generational trauma running through my mom's family, and I'm afraid of it. My great-grandparents abused my grandmother (too strong). My grandmother neglected and ignored my mother (too weak). My mother smothered and controlled me (too strong). My instincts are to be very hands-off with my own kids (too weak?).

    Hooray for infertility!

By kazu on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 12:23 pm:

    Once my brother yelled at me to put some pants on when I was wearing pajamas consisting of a teeshirt and men's boxer briefs which seemed totally odd to me because as far as I was concerned I had pants on. I said, why? I have pants on. He's like, "You're only wearing underwear." I said no and pulled the boxer-briefs down (just a little) to show him what I considered to be my underwear. He asked me why I had to be so weird. And this is the brother that "gets" me.

By Spider on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 12:32 pm:

    When I was a kid, my best friend would wear men's boxers (as shorts) to school. She would safety-pin the little 'easy access' opening shut.

    I remember she had a really cute pair with pigs on them, and a pair with Santa Claus heads.

By kazu on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 12:37 pm:

    It's already been decided that sem's going to be the disciplinarian because I overanalyze things to the point of becoming soft.

    I know that kinds don't have the critical capacity to understand the kinds of ideals that you/we want them to embrace, but I just overthink everything. I can't help it.

    sem jr: can i have a cookie?

    mommykaz: (thinking: well, if I say no am I denying him agency and control over his own body, but if i say yes is he going to becom accustomed to a life of instant gratification, and if I ask him if he really thinks its a good idea am I assuming that he has reached a stage of development where he can make such decisions thus imposing onto a child an adult standard of critical capacity or...or...or)

    sem jr: mommy?


    sem jr: can I have a cookie?

    daddysem: finish your proteins and riboflavins, and bring me one too.

By sarah on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 01:04 pm:


By patrick on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 01:29 pm:

    "Don't puncture your kids' personalities. Let them be who they are, and only step in when [whatever the issue] is posing a threat to their safety or interfering with their quality of life. Or when they ask you for your help. Otherwise, hands off. "

    spider, i think thats what all of us we're saying to begin with.

    spunk. tell me. would you feel this way if you had a son? what about mother/son relationships? is that just as 'wrong' in your mind?

    and like kazoo...you just need to ditch the 'adopted' dad part. thats a technicality. you're her dad. blood or otherwise. period.

    my sister, technically, my half sister, was adopted and accepted by MY dad as none other than his own. and i saw the vast love that it produced, the respect my mom had for my dad for that, even after the divorce. The flipside was MY dad's mother, a crackpot southern baptist hell bent on bloodlines who DID NOT accept my sister as a grandaughter and for that, i saw how that ripped a portion of my family apart.

    ANYWAY...anecdotal shit aside.

    taking door knobs off doors, (didnt pez's folks remove the door at one point?), not knocking etc etc is wrong, thats just nutto.

    and kazoo, regarding the sleeping in seperate rooms....consider yourself lucky. Sem's mom is an exception. everyone non married couple i know has to deal with this.

    just out spite though, make a point of stealing midnight quickies in random spots in the house.

By kazu on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 01:52 pm:

    Not too many people I know get to sleep with their boyfriends or girlfriends. Except for one Jewish friend whose parents let her sleep in the same room as her jewish boyfriend to facilitate the process of making lots of jewish babies (hee hee).

    Anyway, I just think it's interesting that while his mother and my dad and stepdad are fine with us sleeping together, and my mom has no problem with us living together out-of-wedlock (and would probably encourge it), there will be none of it under her roof.

    I think, even though she continues to be uncomfortable, a lot of it had to do with not knowing Sem and that we had only been together about two months when she met him.

    I almost told her that it wasn't fair because she always let my *girlfriends* sleep with me. Which she didn't, but she might have, out of denial that any of my female friends that spent the night were sexual partners of some kind.

By patrick on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 01:57 pm:

    god damn thats kinky.

By Lapis on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 01:59 pm:

    They did. I had to hide behind my bed or change in the bathroom.

    Couldn't stay up late reading either because they'd see the lamplight.

    What can I say, they were creative. I loved my door. It had a lock and was the only way I could get away from the LS for a couple minutes on the really horrible days. She wouldn't even knock, just fly in and sit on my bed and talk. I couldn't get anything done. I think she also broke my lock at one point from pushing and pushing and pushing on the door.

    My parents never saw any of this, they only saw me slamming the door a couple times when I was mad.

    It's important to be aware of what's going on in kid's lives and to prepare them for the future. If you're uncomfortable with something they make a habit of doing you should talk to them like an adult, requesting they do things a bit differently and explain why.

By Spider on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 02:37 pm:

    My parents took my door off its hinges, too.
    And I still change behind my door when I visit my dad, because he and my bro still haven't learned to knock first.


By semillama on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 02:41 pm:

    "the only way I could get away from the LS for a couple minutes "

    The Lone Stranger?

By patrick on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 02:41 pm:

    but you see spider, you know what would probably cure both your dad and brother of their barging in would be for them to catch you, stark naked, changing. Then you say "what the fuck" *without* running for cover or acting like you are unnerved at all and your brother goes "ewwwww" and you say, "knock first bitch" while continuing to get dressed. your problem would be solved.

By Lapis on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 02:48 pm:

    Little Sister. Notice the pronoun of "she".

    Name changed to protect the guilty.

    Good one, Patrick.

By Spider on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 02:54 pm:

    "Knock first, bitch."

    I am so using this line.

By eri on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 03:02 pm:

    I think privacy is important to kids as they get older. Micki doesn't care about it at all, but Hayley is getting there.

    I crack jokes with her and tell her that I read her diary and crap like that (I have only done that once and with good reason). She asked me about that yesterday (did I read all of them, or whatever). I explained to her then that I don't just go into her room and read through her stuff. The only time that I would do anything like that is actually if I believed she was hiding something or doing something dangerous to herself and wasn't discussing it with me. She was fine with it.

    I had NO privacy growing up. In fact, as soon as I actually hit puberty my mother made sure that my room was the one room you had to walk through to get to any bedrooms/bathrooms in the house and that you could also see into my room from the kitchen. It sucked.

    I don't want to give my kids all the hang ups that my mother gave me. I am very different from my mother in that aspect. I want my girls to be proud of themselves as individuals and comfortable with themselves. It's hard, too, cuz Hayley is a total follower. The poor kid acts like she has no self confidence whatsoever. I am working on that with her. Right now she is so busy trying to be like everyone else that it drives me nuts.

    And Spunky....you gotta get this "step-dad" shit out of your head. Seriously. People don't look at you like a potential pervert who might molest a child going through puberty. I mean, they don't think of you as a threat to Hayley. You are the only father she has EVER known. She knows about Tom, yes, but has met him what, once? And she was only what 18 months old when you and I first got together. You are all she has ever known. You are her Dad. That's it. Blood and paperwork don't mean shit. You are Daddy.

By Spider on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 03:03 pm:

    Anyway, to bring this back to the original topic, did anyone see Diane Sawyer interview Britney Spears last night? She was *so bad* at the sexy-but-innocent act. I watched for a few minutes and then turned it off out of embarrassment for her.

By Spider on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 03:04 pm:

    Sorry, didn't see Eri's post up there. I didn't mean to be insensitive!

By kazu on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 03:21 pm:

    The problem with kids who want to be like everyone else is that they emulate the wrong kids. At least it seems that way. Or it's all about having the stuff they have.

    And when they want to be like the smart kids or adopt other positive traits, it can get competitive, but in a bad way leading to a superiority complex, not the healthy kind.

    Of course, those are just some generalizations. Obviously it's more complicated. Or if it isn't, the solution is likely complicated. Personality is a big deal too. I had lots of friends who were really insecure, but no one knew because they were loud and funny and friends who were assumed to be insecure, but were just quite and reserved.

By semillama on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 04:17 pm:

By eri on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 04:18 pm:

    I didn't think you were being insensitive Spider.

    With Hayley, the kids she chooses to emulate are either the "popular" hellions with no rules or boundaries and tend to be vulgar and violent and well, I hate those kids.....or she will emulate the ones who are in maturity levels WAY behind where she should be so she acts like a child in kindergarten instead of the young lady that she actually is. She regresses and it's all games.

    So either way it appears to be negative. And she is smart enough, and nice enough, and cute enough to really be a leader, but she just doesn't do it.
    She puts too much priority on what others think about here and not what she thinks about herself. It drives me crazy. I mean, to some extent I do understand it. I do understand why she is upset about getting picked on for some things, but other things I just don't get. Why she wants to emulate a bully who has beat up her sister, cuz she has more brand name clothes and can run all over the neighborhood causing trouble is completely beyond me. Especially when this kid treats her like shit anyways.

    She wants the whole world to like her and sometimes I wonder if it is because she doesn't like herself. I don't know how to help her in that department. She's beautiful, cute as hell, extremely intelligent, good natured, sweet. And when she is just herself and not trying to emulate these others, I couldn't ask for a better kid and think I am so lucky. But watching her allow herself to fall for every type of peer pressure to "fit in" kills me. Especially knowing that she would naturally just "fit in" if she didn't try to follow everyone else and was just herself.

By kazu on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 04:28 pm:

    "Why she wants to emulate a bully who has beat up her sister"

    Do you mean that the bully has beat up her own sister? Not Micki, right. I know you wouldn't allow her to hang out with anyone like that. Is Hayley protective of Micki? I expect in a few years, it will be the other way around.

    Not that I have any idea, but it could be a phase. And while she needs guidance/postive reinforcement and so forth, she may also grow out of it. I would just be concered if things got in the way of her physical/mental well-being...I mean, more so than the normal amount of problems that come with insecurity.

By Spider on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 04:49 pm:

    Nice one, Sem!

    Eri, I don't know if this will work for you, but it worked on me and on my friends....though maybe not at that age....anyway, the way to get your kids not to do something is not to say it's bad or dangerous or evil or whatever. Act like it's the lamest, most pathetic thing you ever heard. Scorn it, sneer at it, act like only freakin losers do [x, y, or z]. Those kids Hayley wants to be like? Act like they're the biggest dorks you've ever seen. And see, you're an adult...so sure, kids think that girls cool, but what the hell do they know? They're dumb little kids. You're a full-grown woman, and you're letting Hayley in on your secret....you're showing her how adults see that ridiculous little girl who thinks she's such a bad-ass. You know?

By kazu on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 04:58 pm:

    It's always good to speak their language, just as long as they don't think YOU are the dork for doing so. And just make sure she doesn't take it personally; like she's the dork/loser for wanting to do something.

    Of course, this only works up until the rebellious teen phase. Even if kids don't punk out in their teenage rebellion, a lot of kids will sneer at and reject everything their parents think are cool.

By kazu on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 05:00 pm:

    "Iíll tell you something. I was bored in that marriage because it was going nowhere. I was a human doing, not a human being. I love my daughter, so help me God, but I was sick of being jealous of her. This way I can be myself, a true artist. I had to leave my family to become my family. Now Iím me and my wife and my daughter AND I DONíT NEED THEM ANYMORE!!!
    Fuck the courts.Ē

    somehow it oddly fits the thread

By patrick on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 05:03 pm:

    spent much time with 5 year old spider?

    that shit don't work in most cases.

By kazu on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 05:07 pm:

    You know when it works sometimes? If there is an aunt or an older cousin or a baby sitter that the kid looks up too. That's how it worked for me. I wanted to be just like my camp counselors and would have followed their direction in anything.

By patrick on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 05:13 pm:

    sure, there is the exception. to our godsons, Nico and I are the exception, but even at times, we can't counter the influence of their peers.

By Spider on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 05:21 pm:

    Actually, that's when it worked the best!

    For example. My best friend had always respected her dad, but when she hit 13, she began to do all sorts of stupid self-destructive things. Her dad (who is brilliant and has a razor-sharp tongue that scares even me, to this day) got her away from them by making fun of her for being a typical teenager. Granted, he often went too far, and he could be pretty nasty about it, but it worked. (Really, all he has to do -- even today -- is sort of laugh mirthlessly and shake his head, and you feel like an idiot.)

    So, okay, maybe this isn't the perfect solution, but I'm telling you, girl, it works.

    So maybe Eri could modify this a little to be less insulting...right, and make it out that the other people are lame, not Hayley.

By Spider on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 05:22 pm:

    Oh, I am so behind. I was responding to Kazu's 4:58 post.

By kazu on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 05:26 pm:

    Teenagers are just ridiculous, beyond generalization and comprehension. Ours are going to military school as soon as they hit puberty.

By patrick on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 05:28 pm:

    i've always thought teens should be sent to a cave from 12 to 18.

By kazu on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 05:30 pm:

    Or a deserted island.

By Spider on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 05:31 pm:

    I'm thinking about it now, and I think her dad's method worked so well because he's somebody that you desperately want to like you. I'm reminded of Zenia in Margaret Atwood's "the Robber Bride" -- there's a line that says something like her scorn was so absolute you felt blessed if she spared you. He could be so scathing when he didn't like you or something you liked that you would do anything to get on his good side. And, you know, that's not a good quality in a father.

    (Thankfully, he's mellowed.)

    So, I got nothing.

By Spider on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 05:43 pm:

    Speaking of dorks and lame things, what the hell is wrong with people who write fanfic? I think that's about as low as you can go. Especially slash fanfic. And check this shit out -- this is people pretending to hang out with an actor from "CSI" in real life. What. the. hell. Imagine me laughing mirthlessly and shaking my head.

By heather on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 06:15 pm:

    that putting people down thing--

    i dunno

    making fun of your own kid doesn't sound
    worth-it, isn't there another way?

By kazu on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 06:30 pm:

    And I wouldn't want to condone making fun of people for wanting to do things (even if they are truly stupid things).

By eri on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 09:18 pm:

    To answer the question, yes, this kid took some wood sticks to Micki and covered her in welts all over. This kid is your typical size for an 8 year old, wearing approx a size 10 in clothes and Micki is the size of your typical 24 month old wearing a 2T in clothes and skinny at that.

    I do not tolerate the girls being around her in any situation I can control, but they do ride the bus together.

    I try to be the "cool" or "hip" mom that kids come to, and they usually do. They seem to look up to me (which is sometimes a pain in the ass with all the kids in this neighborhood) and those who don't look up to me tend to fear me (which I think is cool).

    I can kinda play some of that game (though I don't insult other kids if I can help it). But usually with the neighborhood kids more than my own. Teenagers usually come to me for advice or ideas on situations in their life, cuz I don't judge them, just listen and offer advice or answers to their questions. Hayley is very in between. She wants to be a teenager. She wants to be cool. She spends too much time listening to bullies who tell her she is a dork because her shoes are not a certain brand name.

    Geez am I tired.
    I need a nap.

By kazu on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 11:17 pm:

    How frustrating. Why do kids have to be so cruel? I always forget about the bus/schoolgrounds where, even if Hayley wanted to ignore her, probably couldn't if the bully decides to torment her.

    I will be the dorky professor mom. I actually do pretty well with kids, though teenagers just think I'm strange. It's just as well they stay away from me what with the hives and all.

    Poor Hayley. I was insecure, but I was neither leader nor follower. It's not so much I wanted to be cool but to be liked. Mostly, the popular kids just ignored me and I had my own groups of friends.

By eri on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 01:38 pm:

    I got along with the popular kids, but didn't really hang out with them, towards the end of school. I always ran with a few people from every clique imagineable. I didn't fit into any one specific group, but was friends with people from all of them. I was just me, and I gave up trying to be one of the popular ones or the beautiful ones. And when I stopped trying to fit in, I just naturally had so much fun. I would like to see that with Hayley.

By spunky on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 01:55 pm:

    I got picked on a LOT as a kid.
    I had the plastic glasses, usually with a fair amount of tape holding them together, and brillo-pad hair. I got called a "zebra" a LOT. Or Pubes....

    Anyway, I was a lone wolf, but learned to like it that way.

    I still have a lot of "un-learning" to do.


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