Can we just be friends. Can men and women just be friends?: Can we just be friends.
By No 2 on Tuesday, August 4, 1998 - 10:32 pm:
    Not if thay started out as LOVERS. Sometimes the wourld changes them and keeps them apart. When thay meet again thair hearts say yes and socity says no,your married.8/4/98

By Carrie Ann on Wednesday, August 5, 1998 - 06:57 pm:
    Not always true. Sure, it makes things a little harder and awkward, but I've had it happen that way and am still just friends with the guy(s). I still stick to the theory that it all depends on the people involved, no matter what the situation. *shrug* I don't like to generalize.

By Potlicker on Monday, August 10, 1998 - 12:52 am:
    only if one of them is gay

By Carrie Ann on Monday, August 10, 1998 - 01:55 pm:
    Heh, even that's not always true. My friend, Jason was (is) gay and he got on this kick that we should have sex/get married etc. and didn't give up on that for about a year. (Til we stopped talking. Over other differences/disagreements) Well, course I still say that it was because he had this picture of how he felt he SHOULD be, how he was SUPPOSED to live his life, and thought that I could maybe help him with that? I don't know.

    Hrmm, I need to call him. The pewps going to Cali. to start at Pepperdine in about a week or so. And I never did get that issue of XY he was in. Hmm, anyone know a way to score back issues? Heh.

By K.T. on Wednesday, September 2, 1998 - 02:13 am:

    I figure the only way a man and a woman can be friend is if they are both repulsed by each other.If they are so offended by each others physical appearance, there may be a chance. Otherwise is ain't gonna work. My opinion at least. But then, who the hell am I?

By Carrie Ann on Wednesday, September 2, 1998 - 01:28 pm:

    Physical apperance? Well, that's not the only thing. I know many guys (friends) who I find to be very attractive BUT because of their attitude/mannerisms, theres no way in Hell I'd ever be more than just friends with them. I just couldn't look past it even long enough to roll around in the sack with them. (Well that and I have a boyfriend, heh.)

    I still have a lot of guy friends who that's all they've ever been. I view them as 'brothers' or something. I love it. Being able to snuggle with them, run up and plant smooches on them, go to the bathroom with them in the room, walk around in my bra and panties or change in front of them.... and vise versa. (excl. the bra/panties part. heh) And we're still _friends_. Even reguardless of my status w/my boyfriend, because it's always been this way. It's great being able to have some close guy friends. I think we all need close friends of the opposite sex who that's all they are. I know it's hard sometimes. We're human, we have sexual urges, fantasies, needs and wants... but it is possible to restrain yourself for the sake of friendship. ;)

By Asia on Wednesday, September 2, 1998 - 02:44 pm:

    i dont 'snuggle' with my brothers, or run around in my bra and panties in front of them, OR change with them in the room. that's a little beyond the brother/sister thing.

By Carrie Ann on Wednesday, September 2, 1998 - 07:09 pm:

    Which is why I put it in quotes. Not the LITERAL
    translation of brother. Heh, of course not. And
    well, that's just you I guess. If I had brothers
    I wouldn't mind doing those things, because I know
    there's nothing sexual there. (God, I would hope
    that's the case for you...?) But I say that in a
    way to describe the degree of nothing happening,
    openness, being comfortable around them.... let
    me reiterate and expand for ya...

    In saying that I "run around in my bra/panties" I
    mean if they are in the living room and I need to
    get a shirt from there, I will say "Ok, I'm not
    totally dressed, need to grab something." And go
    get it then leave. Not like I lounge around
    half-naked with them! Same with changing. I have
    had a guy friend come into a dressing room with me
    while I tried on a pair of jeans to get his
    opinion. The place we were at was crowded and
    theres that little bench in the room. I was still
    mostly clothed. I don't find that to be a big
    deal either. And snuggling has to be one of the
    BEST, most innocent things ever. Maybe it's just
    me but I snuggle with anyone.. brother/sister,
    mom/dad, boyfriend/girl friends... Snuggling isn't
    ripping off your clothes and ravaging one another.
    It's feeling warm and close and safe. But like I
    said, maybe these things are different for you?

    Sorry for the confusion. There obviously seemed
    to be some. (Or maybe not? Hrmmm...) Heh.

By Asia on Thursday, September 3, 1998 - 08:55 am:

    im an only child, so i was speaking of brother-in-laws. funny--i've been having this exact conversation with a good friend of mine. there are some things i just dont think are cool and/or acceptable to do with friends. it may be different for me because i'm married, and i think its' a matter of respect to my spouse not to come walking out of my bedroom when friends are over in my underwear and grab a cup of coffee. ditto for sitting on the sofa or whatever, holding hands or snuggling.

    this might have something to do with the fact that im from the north. more of a hands-off/personal space thing. i consider myself to be a pretty touchy-feely person, but it's been pointed out to me that touchy feely for a new englander is vastly different than for everyone else.

    i dont think there's anything *wrong* with being that way, but id just have to say that i'd be a little ticked off if i woke one night after napping, walked into my living room and found my husband snuggling with a friend. guess im more uptight. things are different when you're married.

By Starchy on Thursday, September 3, 1998 - 10:47 am:

    If touchy-feely is different for a New Englander than anyone else, you might want to spend a weekend with myself and my friends, right here in the Boston area. That sort of snuggling/general feeling of comfort with the fact that we all have bodies (imagine that!) is pretty much de rigeur, and has been with all the circle-of-friends situations I've been in over the past few years. A lot of people I know have a level of comfort with it that extends well beyond what Carrie Ann is expressing: "Wait, Starchy, you *haven't* seen me naked? Weird.."

    Admittedly, it has caused problems before, but those have been few and far between. I also have a few friends, though, who practice polyamory, although I've always had a lot of problems with that one.

By Asia on Thursday, September 3, 1998 - 12:59 pm:

    hrmmm. i dont know how to explain myself better than how i already have. i think that there's definitly a personal space issue, no matter how close a friend i happen to be with. and im pretty certain this will label me as a...i dont know what. maybe show me to be uptight or something, but i definitly *dont* think it's cool for myself or my husband to walk around holding hands with friends. i think it's a little bit insulting. it has nothing to do with security in the relationship. i have no qualms that hand holding will lead to a roll in the sack. i accept it for what it is--a show of affection between two people. maybe my realm of affection is different than other people's. i've never had snuggly friends. i *have* had friends who would walk around in the underwear while they were getting dressed or whatever, but that was rare in mixed-sex friendships. perhaps it's a matter of being comfortable in one's own skin. or comfortable with other people's skin. but i've never had a set of friends where we'd all hug and hold hands and stuff like that. well, wait. hugging is one thing. cuddling quite another. i should say that i've never had friends who i sat around and cuddled with. and that's okay. i dont have any friends that id WANT to sit around and cuddle with. demented monogamy? perhaps!

    so, my bottom line is: as long as none of my friends try and hold my hand or put their arm around me on the sofa when im trying to watch a movie, everything will be just ducky.


By Carrie Ann on Thursday, September 3, 1998 - 01:30 pm:

    I can see where you are coming from, Asia and that's totally fine. :) All the reasons you have listed seem perfectly valid. (ie. married and you don't view it acceptable, which should right there disqualify it for you. if you aren't comfy with something, don't do it. simple as that.) I also think there still was some confusion on to what degree I meant things. I don't get together with all my friends and just hold hands or snuggle There are some friends, pretty close ones actually, whom I have never even hugged.

    I am in a serious relationship (together a year and a half & live together) and I have a feeling my boyfriend shares your views on the matter more so than mine. I would never think about taking any of that stuff to a different level with any one of them because I love my boyfriend and I know that if he suddenly got all touchy-feely with some other girl, I'd be pretty upset/hurt.

    And that's another thing. It's different for everyone. If I were watching a movie with a friend and another friend was laying on a couch with me (be it girl or guy) and I decided to lay my head on their lap or lean up against them, I don't think theres's anything wrong with that. Because that is the type of person I am and have always been. So it's pretty known. I wouldn't do it if they showed signs of dislike, of course. But most of my friends are the same way. (Don't practice polyamory, however. Monogamy or nothing. Well... then there's my other roomie. Heh, that's a story for a whole other board.) Anyway, but if my boyfriend started snuggling up to one of my friends I'd think it weird because he's never been that way. I wouldn't freak out, but I'd most definitely try to find out if something was going on.

    It also matters on how that other person involved views it. If your friend puts their arm around you while sitting on the couch, if they are just doin it jokingly, to be friendly, or as an unconscious thing that's ok. But if they have alterior motives, that's where other factors come into play.

    The walking around "naked" or partially clothed thing... There aren't very many of my male friends who I will do that around. (none _naked_ out of respect for my boyfriend and for them and well not sure I could do that. Heh)

    But haven't you ever gone skinny dipping? A big group of my friends and I all went swimming about a month ago, to try and beat this heat. (me, my boyfriend, 4 other guys and 2 other girls) It was pretty late, so was getting dark and someone dared someone and that turned into a bigger dare and so on and so forth, until finally we all just said 'screw it' and swim suits went flying. There was nothing sexual about it, no one was all touchy feely and no one stared or commented. I think that helps with how you feel about yourself, about your own body, whether or not you're able to do that kind of stuff.

    I dunno, I just still feel that it's nice being able to have some of those friends where I feel comfortable enough around that if I needed someone to just snuggle up to (because if I'm feeling sad or whatever, it's nice to have someone to lean on), needed to make a quick dash thru the living room for something if I wasn't fully clothed (not 100% naked, but say just a bra/panties or everything but a shirt), walkin down the street and throw my arm around them just cuz... that kinda stuff.

    I've always had that relationship with certain friends and I also grew up in a very loving, touchy-feely (not in a perveted sense at all) family. It was just me, my mom and my sister for most the time (father passed away when I was 3 and my mom never remarried.) and she made it a point right from the time we were born to hold us as much as possible, hug us every day, let us come up and snuggle if something was wrong or just because we needed that human contact. And it extended out to my other family too (aunt/uncles/cousins) I feel that's a very healthy way of reaching out.

    My mom has a friend who's about 45, who has a 3 year old daughter. It was an unexpected pregnancy and because HER mother never did much with her when she was growing up (as well as telling her that she 'hated kids') she didn't know what to do with her daughter now. She already did enough damage to that poor child's life in the first 3 years that I'm sure she'll have a lot of trouble with her later. She never hugged her, held her, snuggled with her... and if it weren't for my mom always taking care of her as well, she most likely would've grown up being a very distant, untouching person. Not only that but before she had that contact she was awful and impossible to control. Wild child! Heh. Now she's mellowed out and is a lot more responsive and loving towards everyone.

    Anyway, I've babbled on WAYYYY too much now. So I think I'll stop. Heh. I just wanted to make a lil point about how I feel innocent (and that's all it is) communication/touching/closeness can be important and a good thing. :) Just my views on the matter though.

By K.T. on Thursday, September 3, 1998 - 04:38 pm:

    Hey Carrie Ann,

    No need for you to NOT feel innocent. If you are an affectionate person, great! If your friends are okay with it, great! No need to feel you have to defend yourself.

    I, on the other hand, am not quite like that. I'll be the first to hug a friend in distress, or hug my mom when I see her, or hug a friend I haven't seen in a long time, but that's about where it ends. I hug my husband every chance I get and my cat gets crushed regulary. I have an area of space around me that I don't like people stepping into unless invited. I know some people that feel the need to hug me because they haven't seen me in 2 days. That bugs me. But I don't run screaming because I realize that's just how they are. I endure it I guess.

    There is, however, no way in hell I'd let anyone but my husband see me in just my underwear. I'm quite comfortable in my skin, but that doesn't mean I want any of my friends to see it. And vice-versa. I don't care to see any friend in their underwear. If I have to get something from, say, the bathroom before I'm fully dressed, I don't see tossing my robe on as being too time consuming.

    Just another opinion to add to the ones here. But wouldn't life be unbearable (no pun intended) if everyone had the exact same opinion on everything?

By Asia on Friday, September 4, 1998 - 08:44 am:

    kt: well put. i agree. you said it much better than i did, apparantly. the point of what i was trying to say, and failed, was that it's a matter of personal space. i have friends (well, one friend) who gets dressed in front of me, and i think nothing of that. it actually didnt occur to me until right this moment that she DID that. but as for people i've seen yesterday, no matter how friendly i am with them, i see no need for big old hugs hello and goodbye.

    and carrie ann: im from brooklyn. there was limited skinnydipping opportunity. i mean, there were tons of beaches which were patrolled by tons of cops. im fairly certain that the moment the suits went flying and bodies hit the water, the police would have been all too anxious to drag a bunch of wet, nude people to the pokey. then we'd be on the cover of the post, our parents would find out, it would be embarrassing for everyone concerned, so nighttime beach activities were strictly limited to listening to music, drinking beer(in paper bags, of course, as not to break the open bottle law), and making out furiously. all good fun.

    too, i dont think there's anything *wrong* with being physically affectionate. i think it's a lovely way to be. i just dont want people affectioning on *me* when it invades my personal space. more times than not, the person who's doing it to me has no idea that im freaking out about it, and it just makes me uncomfortable. dont know why that is...i mean, i grew up in a house with my mother--im the only child of a divorced mother. there was no shortage of physical affection. hugs and kisses abounded. maybe it's a way of reclaiming space i lost while growing up in ny. who knows? and there's also no reason to think you're not innocent. i never equated affection with um...i dont know what. i cant think of the right word.

    now i've dithered on for too long.

By Carrie Ann on Friday, September 4, 1998 - 02:16 pm:

    Hmmmm... I said I was innocent? Wow, I must have been tired! *grin* Hehe. Ahh, the 'innocent communication/touching etc etc' comment.

    Yep and I can agree with both of you on the matter. 'Tis different for everyone. I think I got myself into something when I made the comment about running to grab something while not fully clothed though. Heh. As for grabbing a robe? If I had that, I would gladly put it on first! I'm just saying that if there is nothing else around to toss on over you and you need to cross through the living room where there might be someone else, then what are you to do? I warn them first and ask that they please turn their head, but knowing they are there, I won't hide out until they leave before getting something I need. *shrug* Did I make it sound as if I was parading around naked in front of them? Heh. If so, not how I meant it at all.

    Anyway, maybe a lot of it does come from the fact that I am not married (I'm in a relationship though) and am only 20, have always had affectionate friends/family and so have reciprocated that. I can see how it would be a respect thing for your husband and vise versa w/him for you. And same thing with people invading your 'bubble', your personal space. If they do that and you aren't comfy with it, then I can see how it would be upsetting. As long as you let them know up front though, so you aren't freaking out inside and they go on thinking you don't mind. That'd make it much worse because when they do find out I'm sure they'd feel bad that you didn't tell them, and in the mean time you'd have to endure it. Even if you have to risk possibly hurting their feelings, gotta tell them right off. Hehe, don't necessarily have to push them away if they go to hug you or snuggle you. A simple talk aside from others of, "I'm really not comfortable with that kind of affection. A simple hug is always nice though." Usually does the trick. =)

    Dither away, dearie. I know I always do. Hehe.

By Whet on Friday, September 4, 1998 - 03:42 pm:

    Hmmm interesting discussion, been talking about it with my best friend for a while, and personally I tend to be way touchy/feely and have had to learn to do otherwise, so I wanna add my touchy/feely 2 cents worth as well.

    KT - Question. What do you wear when you go to the beach?
    I can't think of something more beautiful than to be with a close friend you love, and talk with them and be touching them, well just being near them I guess. And if I'm hurting or crying I want to be held. Let me take a nap and lean my head on your shoulder and I'm safe, happy and content. :)

    I come from a very touchy/feely family. A southern family, where it was common at family reunions and holidays for 4-5 cousins to sleep in the same bed shoulder to shoulder, and not always all males and all females, when I was young would sometimes sleep with my grandmother and older female cousins and thought nothing of it, the whole family was there. Was a matter of more people than beds. Nothing sexual at all.

    In high school and in college, the showers were one big room with a dozen shower heads, and everyone got in line and stood around completely naked and showered when your turn came. Course this was all same sex but thats the way it was, so naturally I don't have a hell of a lot of embarassment left after going through years in public school systems soaping up my privates with a dozen other guys doing the same. Kinda makes you lose your sense of ..whatever the word is. Same if you've been in the military.

    But thats not the real point, its the level of physical comfort with your friends, and what is acceptable or not to you.

    With me, its not even really a sex based thing. I've put my arm around guy friends talking, hugged them, slept with them (nothing sexual at all) I mean think about it how big is a 2 man pup tent when you go camping with a friend? Had guys rub my shoulders or give me a massage when I hurt a muscle or something. Had them hold me when I cried, vice versa. Hetero guys too mind you. Just close, good friends.

    I was in the band in school, and the uniforms were terribly uncomfortable and HOT, so everyone wore shorts n a t and when you got there, you changed on the bus. Male and female. No body cared. Course there were a few that went and stood in line for 30 min to go to the bathroom and change, but at a festival in florida with a thousand or so people and 30 min waits for the porta-potties... you get the picture.

    I think its all what you are used to and comfortable with. In a huggy/touchy family, the norm is touch, and when you create personal space, thats a form of rejection, something is wrong, you don't wanna be near me eh? Like when you yell at your dog and he comes up wagging his tail and wants to lean on you, touch you cause you are mad and there is space between you? Same thing, on an instinctive level, you're most comfortable with what you're used to, unless you come from one extreme or the other possibly.

    Most recent personal example was my birthday, where two female friends called me up and asked me to stop by, both married, and had a little cupcake with a candle in it, sang happy bday to me, sat me down, fixed me coffee, and gave me shoulder/neck massages and hugged on me wishing me a happy bday. Occasionally we have coffee together, and sit in chairs and if someone's talking about something personal and needs support, whoever is closest usually puts their arm around their shoulder, like its ok, you're among friends. A form of support, reassurance, love.

    Bottom line is, when I care about someone, I want to touch them. Male, female, doesn't matter.

    Can you imagine treating your pets like you treat people, just speak to them or pat them on the head once when you get home and thats it, all the rest just talk? Think about children. They love touch, they need touch as infants to survive. Why does a dog wanna lean against you, sit on your foot when you stand, why does a cat wanna sleep in your lap? People are animals too, just a higher level. We have to LEARN to NOT want to touch, to create that personal space. I don't think its instinctive to NOT touch.

    People are just different. I'm touchy/feely. You're welcome to hug me or snuggle with me or touch me. Doesn't bother me at all, and I dont' see it as a form of disrespect, but do realize its different for others, so I try to change to not ever hurt anyone.

    I was in a meeting yesterday, and after the meeting this sweet little white haired blue eyed lady said 'you want a hug hun?', I told her yes, thank you. Had just met her an hour earlier. Course this IS the south ;-P

    Touch is beautiful.

By Carrie Ann on Friday, September 4, 1998 - 07:23 pm:

    *Applauds Whet* Very well put, dearie. And someone who writes as much as (more than?) I do. *smile* I love it.

By Vhet on Saturday, September 5, 1998 - 07:41 pm:

    Hilarious discussion, been talking about it with my
    navel for a month, and personally I tend to be way
    chiffon and have had to learn to grope, so I
    wanna add my retin-A as well.

    KT - Pogo. What do you grind when you go to the bathroom?
    I can't think of anything more beautiful than mexican take-out with a
    pegleg, and hopscotch with cereal and carpeting, well just surgery I guess. And if I'm toasty or
    mildewed I want to be scrambled. Let me take a bath and park my hand
    on your ass and I'm salad, tossed and dressed. :)

    I come from a sticky nest. A ridiculous genre,
    where it was common at watermelon stands and pharmacies for 4-5
    cousins to bark in unison, and not
    always snails and feathers, when I was young would
    sometimes toss my grandmother and piscine
    cousins and teleport, the baggage was breakfast.
    Was a matter of more bawking than tourniquets. Nothing strange at night.

    In high school and in college, the showers were one big torturechamber
    with a dozen bosses, and everyone got basted and stood
    around completely ignorant and got disinfected with cottage cheese.
    Course this was sex but thats the way it eroded, so
    I don't have a hell of a lot of hydrochloric acid left
    after going through years in public school toilet stalls licking
    my privates with a dozen other scarecrows doing the twist. Kinda
    makes you lose your lunch? Keys? Marbles? ..whatever the word is. Same if
    you've been in fashion.

    But thats not the real canteloupe, its the level of physical fitness
    with your bathtowels, and what is crawfish or not to you.

    With me, its not even a carbon based thing. I've put my
    reservations around gay friends talking, disciplined them, slept with fanbelts
    (nothing corny at all) I mean look for it how big is a man's
    pup tent when you go golfing with a gerbil? Had guys
    rub my hood ornament or give me a valentine when I slapped a flea
    or something. Had them boogie when I squealed, vice chairman.
    Hetero guys mind you. Just be quiet, good friends.

    I was in the petri dish in school, and the conditions were terribly
    uncomfortable and HOT, so everyone shot up and
    when you got high, you changed on a dime. Male and female.
    No defecation. Course there were a few that went and stood
    in mud for 30 min to go to hell and expectorate, but at a
    wine tasting in Hades with a thousand or so finger puppets and 30 dollar
    shoes for the ladies... you get the picture.

    I think its all moot what you are used to and endowed with. In a
    squirming family, the norm is maggots, and when you create
    Roach Motels, thats a form of rejection, something is squeezable,
    you don't wanna be near me eh? Like when you yell at your
    thumb and he comes up smiling and wants to lean on your index finger,
    you peck you cause you are taffy and there is Clarence Birdseye?
    Same thing, on the seventh level, you're most comfortable
    with Garanimals, unless you come from East Saint Louis
    or South Padre Island possibly.

    Most recent personal example was my jellyfish, where two
    ex-presidents called me up and asked me to masturbate, both
    joined in, and had a little cupcake with a midget in it, sang
    the qu'ran to me, sat me down, sauteed my toenails, and gave me
    thumbscrews and exhaust fumes wishing me a future. Occasionally we have outbreaks together, and sit in Jell-O
    and if someone's itching something fierce and needs
    Clearasil, whoever is closest usually puts their firearms away, like its ok, you're among tarantulas. A form of
    support hose, candy, gloves.

    Bottoms up, when I want new razor blades, I want to soap
    them up. Fire engine, fire engine, doesn't matter!

    Can you imagine eating your pants like you eat cardboard, just
    spank them or bonk them on the head once when you get hammered
    and thats it, all the rest just sponge? Think about chainsaws. They
    love touch, they need oil as bacteria to survive. Why does a
    dog wanna hump you, sit on your foot when you stand,
    why does a cat wanna sleep in the sink? Pigs are animals
    too, just a higher language. We have to HUNT to create that personality. I don't think its
    instinctive to talk so much.

    Mass transportation vehicles are just different. I'm funny. You're welcome
    to molest me or snuggle bear or touch concrete. Doesn't bother me
    at all, and I dont' see it as a form of hazing, but do
    realize its egg salad for otters, so I try to rush to not
    ever miss "Seinfeld: The Next Generation".

    I was in a terrarium yesterday, and after the watering this
    sweaty little red eyed lady said 'you want a some action
    hunnny?', I told her yes, thank you. Had just met her an hour
    earlier. Course this IS the pits ;-P

    Tapioca is beautiful.

By Markus on Tuesday, September 8, 1998 - 11:44 am:

    Oddly compelling. -- Vincent Canby

    Now if we could only get this added as a module for The Dialectizer.

The Stalking Post: General goddam chit-chat Every 3 seconds: Sex . Can men and women just be friends? . Dreamland . Insomnia . Are you stoned? . What are you eating? I need advice: Can you help? . Reasons to be cheerful . Days and nights . Words . Are there any news? Wishful thinking: Have you ever... . I wish you were... . Why I oughta... Is it art?: This question seems to come up quite often around here. Weeds: Things that, if erased from our cultural memory forever, would be no great loss Surfwatch: Where did you go on the 'net today? What are you listening to?: Worst music you've ever heard . What song or tune is going through your head right now? . Obscure composers . Obscure Jazz, 1890-1950 . Whatever, whenever General Questions: Do you have any regrets? . Who are you? . Where are you? . What are you doing here? . What have you done? . Why did you do it? . What have you failed to do? . What are you wearing? . What do you want? . How do you do? . What do you want to do today? . Are you stupid? Specific Questions: What is the cruelest thing you ever did? . Have you ever been lonely? . Have you ever gone hungry? . Are you pissed off? . When is the last time you had sex? . What does it look like where you are? . What are you afraid of? . Do you love me? . What is your definition of Heaven? . What is your definition of Hell? Movies: Last movie you saw . Worst movie you ever saw . Best movie you ever saw Reading: Best book you've ever read . Worst book you've ever read . Last book you read Drunken ramblings: uiphgy8 hxbjf.bklf ghw789- bncgjkvhnqwb=8[ . Payphones: Payphone Project BBS . torturechamber . . receipts . contact