i hope so

sorabji.com: Can men and women just be friends?: i hope so

By bell_jar on Monday, August 6, 2001 - 07:17 pm:

    i met a boy at some random jazz club a few weeks ago. i was really excited because i have all of about two friends here.

    we decided to go see a movie together in prospect park last thursday. while we were sitting on the lawn i realized he was a little close to me. i decided to ignore it, and then i find that his arm is around me. i don't know what to say to him. in the end he kisses me goodnight.

    i gave him the i just want to be friends talk. he didn't want to just be friends.

    i met three other guys last friday. i really hope that we can just be friends.

By TBone on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 01:38 am:

    How're you doing? Are you enjoying yourself? I mentioned in the other thread that I was just wondering about you today... hoping things went well for you.

    I'm glad you're meeting people. It's good to have you back on the boards.

    Why, for the sake of conversation, do you just want to be friends?

By semillama on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 08:47 am:

    Why not?

    Don't all women just want to be friends? That's the impression I get, anyway.

    Sorry. The coffee machine fucked itself and dripped coffee everywhere bu tin the pot and i be cranky although I just got a WinPopup that says there is enough in pot for me so I cna have it with blueberry coffee cake and as you know no coffee cake without coffee.

    there should be a thread for "i-Need-Coffee" ramblings.

By Spider on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 09:44 am:

    Not all women just want to be friends. But some women always just want to be friends.

By bell_jar on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 09:58 am:

    i don't always just want to be friends.

    when i meet someone interesting, but i don't feel any desire fuck them... well... then i just want to be friends.

By agatha on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 10:25 am:

    that seems pretty clear to me.

By Hal on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 11:04 am:

    I think I see it.

    I'm glad to see you back Bell_Jar, I miss your posts, and I've been wondering about about you myself.
    I hope you join us in NO for Sorabjifest 2001.

By TBone on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 11:05 am:


    I was just wondering if it was universal or specific to the guys you've recently met.

By Nate on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 11:37 am:

    i was going to go into my "how to fuck any woman you want" rant, but i did that elsewhere recently and it's rather tired.

    go on witcha bad selves.

By Bell_jar on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 11:55 am:

    fuck! i didn't get to hear that rant.

    i'd like to learn how to fuck any woman i want.

By patrick on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 12:00 pm:

    i want to fuck everyone i meet. is that bad?

By Nate on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 12:13 pm:

    no, patrick. that's good.

    everyone you meet wants to fuck you, too.

    y'all just need to communicate.

By patrick on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 12:23 pm:


    if i revealed half of what goes through my mind upon meeting folks, most probably would never get in sight of me.

By Nate on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 12:26 pm:

    sounds like someone has a case of low self esteem!!!

By Hal on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 12:29 pm:

    Or lack of sex.

By Spider on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 12:29 pm:

    Don't we all?

By Spider on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 12:29 pm:


By semillama on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 12:34 pm:

    Hee hee hee hee!

By patrick on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 12:43 pm:

    no, not necessarily any of the above. i've had sex with in the last 5 days.

    and it may be a combination of self-esteem, and that sense of shame rearing its ugly head.

By Spider on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 12:43 pm:

    Shut up, you!

By Nate on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 12:43 pm:

    oh spider.

By Spider on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 12:44 pm:


    I'm not posting here anymore.

By patrick on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 12:51 pm:


    why you tell me to shutup girly?

    what up with dat?

By Spider on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 01:08 pm:

    Time played tricks on me.

By semillama on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 01:19 pm:

    (Spider posted at the same time as someone else twice in a row, altering the context of her retorts.)


By J on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 02:22 pm:

    No Patrick,there is nothing wrong with you,you have a problem with your glands.

By pez on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 02:52 pm:

    sometimes being "just friends" is a very good thing. a tad disappointing perhaps, no artistic inspiration, but you know there'll never be a messy breakup.

    i don't do the "just friends" thing. i don't really have many friends. just people i'd much rather be around than others.

By patrick on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 02:55 pm:

    why cant we just fuck?

By Spider on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 03:04 pm:

    "Just friends" is plenty artistically inspirational if one of the parties is suffering from unrequited love.

    Unrequited love sucks eggs.

By pez on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 03:16 pm:

    that is extremely true also.

    and sometimes attraction is mutual, so the "just friends" gets very, erm, messy relationship-wise.

By Hal on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 03:50 pm:

    In my opinion the phrase "Just Friends" is someones way of telling you
    that there is no hope ever that the two of you will EVER have sex.
    Its the "nice way" (which is also crap) of telling someone I'm sorry, you just couldn't do it for me, and I don't even want to give you the chance.

By Nate on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 03:52 pm:

    men need a way to say "no, i'm not interested in being your friend. you're dumb and boring. but you have a great ass and i'd love to stick something in it. often."

    Just Fuckbuddies or something.

    let's just be fuckbuddies.


By TBone on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 04:04 pm:

    They're supposed to give you a chance at sex even if they're not sexually attracted to you? And it's mean of them to still want to see you and hang out with you but not sleep with you? Huh. I guess a lot of women pull that "crap".

    What's wrong with being friends?

By Spider on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 04:07 pm:

    TBone, you have achieved wisdom.

By Antigone on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 04:12 pm:

    Spider, you have achieved arrogance.

By heather on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 04:14 pm:

    hurray for everyone!!!!

By Platypus on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 04:17 pm:

    I have to say, the whole "let's be friends" thing is kind of lame. It's so tiresome, and kind of arrogant, like "I know you want to fuck me but you're not good enough, so let's just be friends."

    Not that this is always true, but every example I've seen points in that direction...

By Hal on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 04:18 pm:

    Thank you again TBone for pulling what I say out of context.

    No a woman does not have to give ANYONE the chance to have sex with them, that wasn't the point and you know it. I can say however I'm pretty bitter about some circumstance becuase I've been given the "lets be Friends" motif more times then I can count.
    And its not just in reference to sex either, there have been a few females who I liked a lot, wanted a relationship with, sex is a bonus in my eyes like presents at christmas.
    Using the "let's be Friends" out, is lame, if I tell someone I like them I'm interested in them, and they don't feel the same way then I'd much rather them tell me "no, I just couldn't do that with you, I couldn't ever feel that way about you." or somethign to that effect. Saying "let's just be friends" is an easy out.
    I mean sure, thats probably a reason, but for christs sake show a little fucking compassion people.
    If someone takes a risk, tells you their feelings about you which I might add is difficult for some people, and your not interested in beign any more with that person then "just friends" don't smash their self worth by giving that lame ass excuse. If your going to cripple their self esteem do it with a decent explination, or just kick them in the nuts or something.

By Antigone on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 04:26 pm:

    Amen, Hal.

    Often, women have told me that they didn't want to hurt my feelings and they wanted to "let me down easy."

    I'd much rather have the truth, whatever that may be.

By Hal on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 04:28 pm:

    Thank you, someone who fucking agrees.

By Spider on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 04:29 pm:

    Bite my fingers, Antigone.

By Nate on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 04:30 pm:

    women who want to maintain a friendship without a relationship is not an issue. it kind of sucks that this rarely works. it rarely works for me, either. once someone has gone out on a limb and told me that they like me the friendship has been offset. what do you say? it's a horrible position to be put in. your hand is forced. you have to do something.

    on the flip side, you have women who are stunningly attractive, but shallow as all hell. women who think an afternoon at nordies followed by a manicure is the epitome of exciting life. you might see this woman from across the bar, buy her a drink, fuck her a few times. but then you get to know her and she sucks and then you have to stop fucking her? what a horrible position to be in. you've got this great lay, but is it worth putting up with a day at the mall once in awhile? lackluster phone conversations? hours of emotional pick-up-sticks after accidently backing over her toy poodle?

    women want the just be friends option. they want it to be acceptable and to suddenly cause a reaction in a man's brain: "ok, the friendship is good. no interest in relationship. i'll stop thinking about her pants and it's back to normal."

    i think men need the just be fuckbuddies option. the sudden reaction in the woman's brain should be: "ok, the sex is great. no interest in friendship. i'll stop thinking about calling him for damage control when someone keys my lexus SUV in the macy's parking lot and it's back to bootycall normal."

By TBone on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 04:30 pm:

    ...but what if you DO wanna be friends with them?

    People who say it to everyone they break up with or turn down are lame.

    What about the people that you REALLY like as a friend and all of a sudden they make everything weird by trying to bring sex into the picture? Then they claim YOU'RE the bad person because you "just" want to be friends. It's a really shitty way to lose friends.

    Of course I know you don't think every girl owes you one chance to prove your proficiency in bed, Hal. But that's what your words seemed to say. You didn't mention anything about a relationship. Just sex.

By J on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 04:33 pm:

    I use to tell guys I just wanted to be friends,because I liked them soo much,I was afaid that sex would make things different and I didn't want to lose a friend.

By Hal on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 04:41 pm:

    Well read again Fucko', I clarified it for you.

    In fact I was refering more to the relationship aspect of it then sex anyway. I have never asked or demanded sex from anyone, one its pointless, and two its futile. But when someone gets up the balls to tell you they like you, which for me is a tough thing to do sometimes, they should have a better fucking answer then "lets just be friends."

    Its lame, tell me the truth, give me a reason, don't give me a seconary option.

By pez on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 04:42 pm:

    what if you hate the guy but want to be friends with his friends still because you sortof merged with the crowd?

    "i know you want to fuck me but there's no chance in hell." isn't an option.

    "i'm a lesbian." isn't an option.

    "you can't fuck me, but i want you be my bodyguard." maybe. a guy might think he still has a chance, though.

By semillama on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 04:51 pm:

    For women: "I am not sexually attracted to you, but I enjoy your company otherwise."

    For men: "Hey, let's get buck naked and FUCK!"
    (Thanks Ice-T)

By Antigone on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 04:56 pm:

    "Bite my fingers, Antigone."

    Rhi, I think we should just be friends.

By Antigone on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 05:00 pm:

    pez, why isn't telling the truth an option?

By Hal on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 05:01 pm:

    Ok Antigone, that hurt me, I damn near hit my fucking head on my desk when I fell out of my chair.

    Bad Monkey!

By TBone on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 05:03 pm:

    I thought "i know you want to fuck me but there's no chance in hell." was the truth.

By TBone on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 05:04 pm:

    Oh. yeah. Nevermind.

By heather on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 05:04 pm:

    sexist bastards

By Cat on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 05:11 pm:

    The idea of fucking someone I'm not friends with is repulsive. Nate, I adore you, but your post was vile. You have more soul than that.

    I really value my friends, and if I tell you I want to be "just friends", it's something to be treasured. It means I'll always be there for you even, I'll always be on your side and you will never ever go without a place to crash, a big squeezy cuddle, a dancing-on-the-bar partner, or a jar of homemade chilli jam again.

By pez on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 05:13 pm:

    yeah, but if you're mean and cruel his friends will hate you.

    what do you do, send a singing telegram? (and hope it's not bette midler in a bunny suit)

By Nate on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 05:18 pm:

    it's not vile, cat. not everyone has the same emotional hangups.

By Antigone on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 05:21 pm:

    I guess you'll just have to do with your, Nate. :-)

By Antigone on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 05:22 pm:

    "yeah, but if you're mean and cruel his friends will hate you"

    Don't be mean and cruel. Just tell the truth. I know it's cliche, but if his friends hate you then they ain't good friends.

By Nate on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 05:29 pm:

    my what, pantigone?

By Antigone on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 05:37 pm:

    Your hangups, snagglecock.

By Nate on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 05:42 pm:

    ah, of course.

    i do deal with my emotional hangups.

    you're making about as much sense as, antigone.

By Antigone on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 05:46 pm:

    Chew chum, chum.

By patrick on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 05:46 pm:

    so cat one night stands are not possible? damn!

    im 100% in agreeance with nate on this.

    if women can have their "but why can't we just be friends?" men should be able to have their "why can't we just fuck?" The great part is finding someone who can do either. Which I managed to.

    i received the "lets be friends" crap once. she dumped me good. her name was margaret. i was head over heels for her. I actually smiled in an evil vindictive way, when she assumed she would be at my wedding, and I told her she wouldnt.

By Hal on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 05:47 pm:

    I sense much angst in you mmmm yesss.

By Cat on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 05:56 pm:

    I don't think it's an emotional hang-up to think of sex as something more meaningful than a hit from a bong or whatever else blows your hair back.

    I reckon you're emotionally stunted if you think sex is just about getting off.

By cyst on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 05:59 pm:

    what if you think that sex CAN just be about getting off? like sometimes it's more, but sometimes it's only that?

By Nate on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 06:02 pm:

    exactly, cyst.

    it's like soap. sometimes you wash your most precious bits with a bar of soap, and sometimes you write FUCK OFF on someone's windshield with a bar of soap.

    sometimes you kiss your mom, sometimes you kiss your s/o. don't tell me you can't attach different emotions to the same act.

By semillama on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 06:14 pm:

    You kiss your mom with your tongue?

    Every woman who's used the "let's just be friends" line on me is currently not in my life.

    That's every one of them I've dated, I think.

By cyst on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 06:33 pm:

    "let's just be friends" is fine.

    no one should have to justify their not wanting to date someone else. I mean, you can go ahead and assume it means that you're not good-looking enough. that's probably the case. but it also could mean that you're too fucking geeky and otherwise socially inept. or a combination of the two.

    there is nothing more annoying than having to give a list of reasons why you don't want to date someone. because usually they'll try to refute every reason you give. but it's not some argument you can win with logic. it's just that you don't want to fucking date them, and the fact that they can't accept without just cause really only adds to the problem.

    there have been times that I have thought I had a crush on someone but then had to back off because he responded too enthusiastically. yeah, you may think that's fucked up. but what could I do? I'd never seen his grotesque puppy-dog side before, and once I had, it was all over for me. that sort of imbalance -- where you think someone's cool until they exhibit slavish devotion to you -- does not make for a good start to a relationship.

    but that's just me. these nice guys with whom I still want to be friends should just go find some girl who likes that ridiculous level of attention, someone who doesn't think that fucking reeks of desperation.

By patrick on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 06:39 pm:

    angst? no, not really? at the time, yes...not now though. Im still fond of her and wonder how shes doign living in Hoboken assend NJ with that boyfriend of hers occassionally strung out on heroin.

    to your support though cat, nico and i have never gotten kinky with others we didnt consider dear and close friends.

    but i think there is a happy medium.

    hmmmm. she (and I) prior to hooking up in an exclusive way were capable of sex without relationships, but since we got together, any extra stuff we may have done (together) since has only been with extremely close friends. They are still very close, we wouldnt want it any otherway i think.

    this is confusing.

By Antigone on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 06:41 pm:

    See, cyst, that's why the truth is the best. You've provided the perfect example. If a woman made that speech to me I'd have absolutely no problem walking away. In fact I'd probably be wondering why I ever had feelings for her in the first place.

By cyst on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 06:57 pm:

    jesus. don't you think people, even people who like and respect each other, use each other all the time? do you think everyone should always conduct themselves with complete truth and honesty? don't you think some things are better left unsaid? why try to force people to say evil things? why not accept rejection with grace and dignity?


    I would never give that speech to anyone I liked because it's mean. I am not going to detail to someone all the reasons I think he's repulsive, even if I can't help thinking so.

    if women were to tell you the real reasons they just want to be friends, you'll end up hating them. I can't believe you fault them for not saying.

By cyst on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 07:32 pm:

    that's what sucks. we're begged for the truth then punished for giving it. hypocrites.

By cyst on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 07:45 pm:

    and please know that it's a sucky speech to give as well as receive.

    women agonize over the let's-just-be-friends speech. postpone it, avoid it. they still want to hang out with you but every time they see you it gets more difficult. if they're cowardly and don't value your friendship too much, they'll just try to dodge your calls. but if they like and respect you, then they'll make themselves give the awful speech.

By Nate on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 07:56 pm:

By Antigone on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 07:59 pm:

    "don't you think people, even people who like and respect each other, use each other all the time?"

    Some people might. Not the people I hang around, though.

    "do you think everyone should always conduct themselves with complete truth and honesty?"

    Should? Yes. It's a good ideal. Do they? No.

    "don't you think some things are better left unsaid?"

    Sometimes. Leave it unsaid when speaking the truth would make no difference. Leave it unsaid when the person you're speaking to doesn't want the truth. Leave it unsaid when the person you're speaking to can't handle the truth. But, if someone asks for the truth, give it. If they ask for it, they should be prepared for whatever they get.

    "why try to force people to say evil things?"

    Who said anything about forcing?

    "why not accept rejection with grace and dignity?"

    Why not reject with grace and dignity?

    "I am not going to detail to someone all the reasons I think he's repulsive, even if I can't help thinking so."

    Let's say, hypothetically, that I was being rejected by you. I wouldn't want to be "just friends" with you if you found me repulsive. I wouldn't want to be around you at all.

    Besides, how can you say you "liked" someone, and one sentence later say you found them "repulsive"?

    "that's what sucks. we're begged for the truth then punished for giving it. hypocrites."

    Why is it punishment if someone didn't want to be around you because you found them repulsive?

By Nate on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 08:03 pm:

By Nate on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 08:08 pm:

    antigone, have you ever been the receiver of unwanted advances?

    you're getting to know some chick and she's really cool and nice and has some solid friendship qualities. you dig her, but not _dig_ her. maybe she's physically repulsive to you? hm. but still friendship material.

    but then she falls for you. she starts looking at you too much. she's probably kind of socially inept, so she goes for a long time before saying anything. you kind of sense it, but without solid proof you can't say anything to her.

    so it builds and builds in her mind. she figures you must be feeling the same thing. finally, she says something.

    now what? she's just put you in a position where you have to crush another human being. you didn't have a choice in the matter.

    it sucks, man. that's all anyone is saying.

    now freak out with me about this bass player with my name.

By Antigone on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 09:54 pm:

    Nope, that's never happened to me.

    I'll bet it does suck. I'm all for being compassionate and trying to be nice. But I'd be even more for respecting someone's need for the truth, mainly because I understand that need. If someone wants the truth and they get crushed by it, I feel for them, but it's their own fault for asking. I'm not going to deny them the truth because I judge them too fragile. That's demeaning. That's treating them like a child.

    But I've never been in that position, no.

By Nate on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 10:10 pm:

    so you are arguing that 'let's just be friends' should never be used if there is no intention of being friends?

    i would agree.

    but i think that generally people say that and mean that they want to continue the friendship?

    the friendship did exist before the, hm, mishap?

    but the friendship, despite either party's intentions or control, is generally doomed.

    i could be wrong.

By heather on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 12:02 am:

    hardly anyone wants to be friends. if you are really good friends then it seems that the issue would never come up, they would be close enough to know what's up with you. otherwise what's the big deal if they're not your friend anymore.

    this might just be me, though. i never like anyone.

    it's really not that hard to keep someone from crossing the line. i certainly don't think either side belongs to mostly men or mostly women, some people are just aggressive about what they want.

    '"don't you think people, even people who like and respect each other, use each other all the time?"

    Some people might. Not the people I hang around, though.'

    -yeah, right. maybe not in a horrible deceitful way.

By heather on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 12:11 am:

    if the truth is 'i'm not attracted to you,' who wants to hear that?

    some people just won't go out with you for their own ego issues. my friend turns down every nice guy because of certain totally physical values. she ends up meeting very few people and so far they've all turned out to be really bad guys.
    it's not so much about attraction as being secure with yourself.
    she's even starting to admit that it may partially be so that she won't even have to think about intimacy and commitment.

By dave on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 01:10 am:

    so, fuck it. deny or be denied. i'd rather deny. what a fucking stupid, fake game.

    if that's truly how it is, everyone deserves no one.

    what hormonal crap.

    i hereby reject advanced species status. give a monkey a brain? shit, give a dolphin an opposable thumb -- we filled our monkey-with-a-brain quota centuries ago.

By TBone on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 02:17 am:

    And sometimes you get married to a really cool person and have a really cool kid.

    And you can be glad you don't have to play the game.

    Why am I still awake?

By pez on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 05:28 am:

    because i'm awake even later.

    i'm happy. i just spent two hours with squeaky after not seeing him for 2.5 weeks. he wanted me to spend the night, but i couldn't.

    not that i didn't want to, not that i couldn't (parents out of town), but i have responsibilities and tomorrow's (ok, today's) garbage day.

    but those are just excuses. i'm a bit worried that he's still hung up over his ex (they broke up in december after eight years) partly because he talks about her fairly often and apparently we're (the ex and me) fairly similar in several ways. that and she basically dropped in on him and spent the weekend at his house.

    i hate the fact that things get so complicated. a lot of stuff gets in the way and it bites the big one. i worry because i'm taller, he's impressed with the fact that my hands are larger and i've got fairly muscular arms.

    his social plans. my parents and secrets and job. it's really rough. and i feel really bad because i want to spend time with him, but unless i want my mother freaking out i have to do everything a certain way.

    but that's the way i've kept it for years. since the time when i was 17 and my grandma called "oh, i'm so happy you're finally dating a boy."

    what a turn off.

    where was i?

    don't know. don't care. must sleep.

By Spider on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 08:30 am:

    Cyst, you are right on.

By semillama on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 09:10 am:

    I'm with Antigone on this one, and Heather made a good point. ANy adult with a brain knows what "Let's just be freinds" means. It means. "Get lost." It does. The women who have told me no but really did want to be freinds never used taht line, they told me flat out that any relationship between us would be platonic, and if they were nice enough, they even gave reasons why. Guess what? it works. I stopped any attempts to get a date, and we would just hang out as friends. Please, all any intelligent person should ask is that if you are going to turn me down, have some respect for my intelligence and tell me why.

    Nate: That's fucked. Especially since they're influenced by Linkin Park of all bands. Let us know if the guy changes his name.

By crimson on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 09:37 am:

    it kinda annoys me that you often CAN'T tell people you just want to be friends, when that's what you really want. it always seems to rev up the whine machine...but i'm a NICE GUY...what's wrong w/ women i'm a NICE GUY bla bla fucking bla. well, if you were a nice guy, jack, you wouldn't have been trying to put your grubby paws all over my body when i was trying to have a civil conversation w/ you. you wouldn't be staring at my tits while we're talking about kierkegaard. which would you prefer, my telling you i want to be platonic friends, or just skipping the happychat & amputating your goddamn hands? when i say that i want to be someone's friend, i mean it. i want to be a man's friend, not his jackoff rag du jour.

    the one that really bugs me, though, is when i try to maintain friendships w/ ex-lovers. everything's cool until they get a new lover. then their new partners get their panties in a bunch over the whole thing, like my friendship is some kind of threat (news flash, sweetie: if i still wanted your fuckthing as a lover, i'd damn well have him). jealousy is the last bastion of stunted minds. i've had some really good friendships dissolved by jealous, brain-dead heifers who watch too much oprah.

By semillama on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 10:07 am:

    Huh, with me it's the opposite, the friend gets a new lover and you never hear from them again sort of thing. This happens as well with people who were platonic friends to begin with, though, so maybe it's just me.

By bell_jar on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 10:41 am:

    Only once have I said "let's be friends" and meant "get lost." That was a moment of great weakness, but usually I honestly mean that I really like you but i'm fucked up and i can't have a physical relationship.

By Czarina on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 10:50 am:

    Don't any of you remember the age old addage?There are rules for fucking.These lines should never be crossed.Its really very simple:

    "You don't fuck your friends fuck.You don't fuck your fucks friends."

    This is the "fucking" code of life.Remember these simple lines,and you will save yourselves untold misery and grief.

    And everyone can say what they want,but when it comes right down to it,people can overlook all kinds of negative things,for a good piece of ass.
    So moron man/woman,is no great thinker,well,were you gonna ask this person to critique a book,in the middle of some sensational sex?

    And I have found it best to not hurt someones feeling by rejecting them cruelly.Everyone hates rejection.I always say,its not you,its me,I'm not emotionally ready for a relationship,etc.Kindness is a good thing.Why would you want to hurt someone who has paid you the highest compliment,by finding you attractive,creative,desirable,etc?

    And Pez,WTF are you telling us?That your big hands and muscular arms,come in handy,for toting the garbage out?

By patrick on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 11:37 am:

    "And however one might sentimentalize it, this sex business was one of the most ancient, sordid connections and subjections. Poets who glorified it, were mostly men. Women had always known there was something better, something higher. And now they knew it more definitely than ever. The beautiful pure freedom of a woman was infinitely more wonderful than any sexual love. The only unfortunate thing was that men lagged so far behind women in the matter.

    "And a woman had to yield. A man was like a child with his appetites. A woman had to yield him what he wanted or like a child he would probably turn nasty and flounce away and spoil what was a very pleasant connection. But a woman could yield to a man without yielding her inner free sel
    f. That the poets and talkers about sex did not seem to have taken sufficiently into account. A woman could take a man without really giving herself away. Certainly she could take him without giving herself into his power. Rather she could use this sex thing to have power over him. For she only had to hold herself back in sexual intercourse, and let him finish and expend himself without herself coming to the crisis: and when she could prolong the connection and achieve her orgasm and her crisis while he was merely her tool."

    dh lawrence - lady chatterly's lover.

    i just stumbled upon this page this morning, i thought of this thread.

By Hal on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 11:56 am:

    To anwser the question Nate asked earlier.

    I've had said instance happen to me, and my way of dealing with it crule or not was to "crush another human being,"

    I'm not a religious person, but I do like the "Do unto others as they would do unto you." Cyst I would rather the speech then the lame ass excuse, if you genuinely mean "lets be friends," then explain that. But the problem with that phrase, is that is has been used SOOOO many times for the wrong reasons that its taken on an exteriority meaning. So when you tell someone you "just want to be friends," let them know that you aren't just blowing them off, if you are however blowing them off, either you made it past the "just be friends" conversation in they way they would prefer or you need to tell them that you just don't fucking like them.

By patrick on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 12:00 pm:

    i think it cowardly to euphamize "lets be friends" for "you repulse me".

    instead of "you repulse me" (or anything else brutal) try, "its best we don't see each other" If the person asks why, you are free to tell them, in any degree you see fit.

    instead of "lets just be friends" how about, "I really enjoy your company, but not in a romantic way. Is this possible? If not, I understand."

By cyst on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 12:34 pm:

    it will take me a while to respond to all this.

    but people do use each other, even when they love each other. for example, I love my parents, and I also let them help me pay my tuition. I have used our love to my advantage. likewise, when asked, I have sometimes driven friends to the airport. I am certain that everyone uses others, whether they realize it or not.

    also, when I used the term "repulsive," I only meant it in a sexual/physical way. I mean, I may think some guy is ugly, but I would still love to go see some bands we both enjoy with him. do you realize that some (mostly young, I think) women won't even be friends with guys they think are ugly and/or socially inept? because they don't want that association to be misinterpreted by others? I think that's what's really shitty -- mostly for the women, though.

    I think someone here asked me if I'd rather hear the whole truth from someone who was rejecting me. you know, I probably wouldn't. who needs that kind of blow to their self-esteem?

    I've sort of been rejected a couple times in the last couple years. like there was this one guy I wasn't really interested in but he was super attractive and I hung out with him. (I was actually pretty contemptuous of him and thought he was a closet gay, and his sensing that even if he did pursue me I would have rejected him may have had something to do with how things turned out.) I forgot how it came up, but on the subject of our possibly seriously dating, he said it wouldn't work out. his explanation: "I don't always know when it will work out, but sometimes I can tell that it definitely won't." I let him keep it that vague. it was better that way. it was fine.

    and another time I was having a pseudo-affair when a man who had been living with his girlfriend of many years and their cats and blah blah blah. after a couple months he said he couldn't continue our affair because he knew it would hurt his girlfriend. and could that possibly be the whole truth? would there be anyone in this world he would leave his girlfriend for? probably. why not me? I didn't ask because I didn't want to know.

    maybe if I were prettier, or if I were kinder and gentler, or if my teeth were whiter, or if my ass were rounder, or if I were younger, then I would have been irresistible to them. but I'm not, and I don't think I want to know the exact reasons why. they would probably hurt my feelings, and I just don't need that. does that make sense?

By Antigone on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 02:06 pm:

    Yes, it does. You want people to treat you in a certain way.

    That's exactly what I'm saying. I'd like someone to treat me in a certain way. I'd like them to tell me how they really feel.

    But, recently I've come to a kind of compromise. Just before I left for Birmingham I went out on a couple of dates with a woman, and she said that she'd like to see me when I periodically came back to Dallas. About a week before I returned for the first time she sent me a "dear john" e-mail, telling me that she was getting back with her ex, and didn't want to date anymore. I didn't push it. If she was telling the truth, then more power to her, she should be happy. If she lied, I probably wouldn't want to date her anyway. I've had too many experiences with women lying to me about fundamental things. I've simply lost my tolerance for deception. I'm tired of it.

By TBone on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 02:08 pm:

    You really shouldn't need a tolerance for deception in the first place. Don't put up with that shit.

By pez on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 02:15 pm:

    that was my sleep-deprived way of saying "relationships are complicated".

    i don't know why i posted it. that would go a lot better in a diary or something.

By cyst on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 02:33 pm:

    when I've used variations of "let's just be friends," it has always been sincere, not deceptive. I just wanted to be friends.

    antigone, you say you want people to treat you in a certain way, and that certain way is telling you the whole truth. I think you are deceiving yourself about this.

    don't you ever get frustrated with your friends -- maybe more because of how you are feeling at any given moment rather than how they are acting -- and think some horrible thing about them? something that you may believe wholeheartedly at that moment, like, "what a dumb-ass thing to say" or "wow, she's really put on some weight since last I saw her" or "my god, is his acne ever going to go away" or "I can barely see her face under all that makeup" or "how could he not know who albert schweitzer is?" or "how can they live in this dump?"

    now, I see little reason to ever voice those thoughts. you know, "if you don't have something nice to say..."

    I don't understand why you would want people to tell you unkind thoughts they had about you. when you ask them to explain why they don't want to sleep with you, you're forcing then into a difficult, awkward position. in order to comply, not only do they have to say unkind things to you, but they may also have to own up to and justify their own pettiness.

    for instance, if you, in effect, ask me to confess, "I value your friendship but I'm not sexually attracted to guys with red and pock-marked faces, and you have a red and pock-marked face" -- what benefit is that to either of us? I feel cruel and petty, and you feel humiliated and ashamed OR you feel outraged and morally superior and you decide that I'm one cold bitch whom you never want to talk to again.

    fuck that. I'm going to keep on making excuses, as are most women. because we know it's much better this way.

By semillama on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 02:49 pm:

    So, "Don't ask, don't tell," huh?

    You could just say "I'm not attracted to you" and leave it at that. Most decent guys will accept that, and those that don't and want details, probably you should give some space so they can work things out.

    Actually, you can ignore anything I say, because anything in this subject is in the realm of pure speculation for me.

    Damn it's hot.

By cyst on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 02:56 pm:

    also, I have a tip for everyone who has problems finding partners.

    you think you're not bad-looking and you're pretty smart and fairly interesting? maybe you don't have too much trouble hooking up someone to go out with you once or twice, but they never seem to want to keep going?

    listen: be cool. do not get overexcited. if you do get really excited, pretend that you are not.

    yeah, yeah, waah, waah, I'm-not-going-to-play-any-of-those-fucked-up-little-mind-games. ok, stay home and watch anime, see if I care.

    date girls. remain calm. same goes for women.

    right now I have a very beautiful woman friend who has started dating a new guy. I can see her skirting the edge of self-sabotage. she wants to get married, she wants to gave kids, AND SOON.

    she's been dealt this great hand -- she's tall and thin and beautiful and smart. but now she needs to play this hand well. she should not fawn over the guy 24-7. she should not try to claim him every single evening. she should let him go hang with his buddies while she acts like she also wants to go see her existing friends by herself (even if all she ends up doing is talking about him).

    and this is probably even more important for people who are not tall, thin, gorgeous, and smart.

    often new people are like skittish horses. they're easily spooked. do not cling! be cool at first. act interested and friendly but calm and normal.

    have you seen that movie "dazed and confused"? a senior guy tells the crushed-out freshman boy, "listen, if she asks you if you want a ride, tell her that you already have a ride, but you will see her later." of course he wanted to ride with the girl when she asked, but he acted calm and cool but friendly and interested. he rode with the guys but caught up with her later. he didn't act all googly crazy for her. they ended up making out all night.

    but those of you who want to go the route of complete honesty can stay pure and superior while you sit at home memorizing monty python lines or whatever.

By Spider on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 03:09 pm:

    "listen: be cool. do not get overexcited. if you do get really excited, pretend that you are not."

    Everyone, listen to this.

    You have it down, Cyst - everything you've written here is accurate. I've thought "yes! oh my god, yes!" so often while reading these posts that anyone who could read my mind would think I was having an orgasm. The value of my opinion may be questionable because of my lack of experience, but I know truth when I see it, so Antigone and others: pay attention.

By Nate on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 03:16 pm:

    you suck, spider. especially lately.

By patrick on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 03:17 pm:

    i played it cool like that for about the first two weeks of our relationship.

    after that, we were sending love faxes in code many times a day to each other and spending almost every evening together. I fawned over her, and made sure she knew how much i dug her every chance i could. But i can be aggressive like that.

    i suppose theres always the exception the rule.

By Antigone on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 03:18 pm:

    Two things:

    First, I don't think honesty necessarily means always saying the first thing that comes into your head. Most of the time we think things, then reconsider what we say. That's because we assume people can't handle our observations.

    Second, let's say you made that confession to me. There's a third reaction (and many, many more...) besides the two you list. I might accept that you feel that way, not feel humiliated, and just know that you're not someone I would want to date.

    "you feel humiliated and ashamed OR you feel outraged and morally superior"

    By only laying out those two possible responses, you're assuming that men are either 1) insecure children, or 2) morally holier than thou. There are other kinds of men out there, cyst.

    "in order to comply, not only do they have to say unkind things to you, but they may also have to own up to and justify their own pettiness."

    God, wouldn't that be terrible?

    "what benefit is that to either of us?"

    You've already answered that question.

By heather on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 03:18 pm:

    or you could just read 'the rules', spider

    anyway. why don't you just get a life? and then don't lose it for every nifty person that comes by.

By TBone on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 03:21 pm:

    It's likely too late for that now, but one never knows.

By cyst on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 03:22 pm:

    when I was 18 years old, I had such a crush on this one guy that I would follow him around on campus just to see what he was up to? psycho? sort of. we became friends, and one time he and some other people came to my dorm room, and I made coffee for everyone. after they left, I did not wash his cup, but used it over and over again, putting my kips where his had been.

    outwardly I remained calm, not so much out of wisdom but out of terror of rejection.

    anyway, at some point, I've forgotten how, we figured out that we sort of liked each other. (there is no way that I would have revealed the extent of my earlier interest, however, so that doesn't justify anything he did.) and suddenly he went nuts. one time I went over to his place to watch a movie, and as I was leaving, he sort of grabbed me and kissed me. I cried all the way home, cursing him for destroying my interest in him. he freaked the fuck out on me. we went to a show, and he kept trying to sit very close to me and hold my hand, so I moved to sit on the back of the chair instead of the seat itself, which was highly uncomfortable but worth it. he kept trying to invade my space, and I just couldn't fucking wait for that dumb show to be over.

    see, my not liking him had NOTHING to do with his looks or his smarts or his clothes or anything -- I had practically worshipped him for months and months. but his behavior ruined it for me completely.

    all he had to do was maintain some self-control. all he had to do was act normal, just as I had done. but nooooo. I had wanted to like him, but after that I couldn't.

    few women want to date puppy dogs. and even if some of them do, that does not mean that playing it cool at first will ruin things even with them. you have nothing, I repeat, nothing to lose by playing it cool at first.

By Antigone on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 03:22 pm:

    If being cool and calm made women attracted to you, I'd have them flocking to me.

    They aren't flocking.

By patrick on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 03:22 pm:

    please don't read "the rules".

    not tha im so knowledgeable on dating, but what ive heard from that book is a bunch of shit.

By Hal on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 03:23 pm:

    I don't think I could have put that better.

    When I say I want detail I don't want a friggin novel, just a little something more then "lets be friends," the I don't find you attractive thing works. Belive me, when my best friend Genna and I started hanging out I though she was cute, funny, and just plain fun to be around, I wanted a relationship with the girl, I was given a "lets be friends" by her with a simple explination, which also explained why we got along so well. We both liked the same things in life, candy, computers, vollyball, food, sake, books, women.....

    Yeah so she tells me she's a lesbian, hey its a great reason not to be attracted to me. I don't want a reason why they aren't attracted to me, thats not fair to ask, and no they don't have to tell me their a lesbian, that isn't fair either. But for christs sake if you tell me "lets just be friends" the "I'm not attracted to you." thing would work great.

By Spider on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 03:24 pm:

    When did I start sucking? I've been told I've been acting strangely all week, but I seem fine to me.

By cyst on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 03:24 pm:

    oh god, am I parroting "the rules"? I swear to go I have never read that or any other self-help book from the last 30 years.

    spider is nice. but she will need to play it cool if she wants to get anywhere with me.

By Antigone on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 03:25 pm:

    "I made coffee for everyone. after they left, I did not wash his cup, but used it over and over again, putting my kips where his had been."

    "all he had to do was maintain some self-control. all he had to do was act normal, just as I had done. "

    I think that says it all...

By patrick on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 03:27 pm:

    thats wack cyst.

    what you describe there doesn't seem like puppy dog behavior.

    now the scooting away bit....im pretty sensitive to those kinds of things, so i would have gotten a hint at that point. But him kissing you, after you two have spent time together, and there is a mutual but tacit acknowledgement of attraction. What the hell? went nuts? freaked out? Im failing to see where he did this?

    Boys are taught they are to make the first move. Maybe he thought you were waiting for him to make the first move. There is some sort of organized progression to a relationship isnt there?

By cyst on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 03:29 pm:

    antigone -- I mean stay cool and calm after you've hooked them. you have to show some interest in order to get the ball rolling. it's at that point that you need to try not to blow your wad.

    I have no idea if that applies to you at all, but it was something that I wanted to throw out there because I've seen it ruin so many possible couplings.

By Spider on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 03:31 pm:

    I'd like to be one of those people who, when they really like you, just come out in say it. They think your hair is great, or you're really funny, or you make them feel good, and they just tell you. Completely open-hearted and impulsive. But other people aren't like this, the object of your affectionate feelings isn't like this, they won't understand, they'll push you away. The man I thought was like this turned out to be bitter and guarded after all. It's an act. Open-heartedness is an act. Everyone projects and displaces and denies and forms reactions. There are no exceptions. You too.

    Fuck "the Rules," heather. Why would you think that about me?

By cyst on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 03:35 pm:

    ok, you guys. I was 18. I know you think it's weird that I obsessed over this guy. but it's not like I fucking told him that I was so into him I didn't wash his coffee cup, ok?

    that is the difference. I kept my 18-year-old obsession to myself.

    you just have to trust me that he freaked out on me. like, when he kissed me, really what he did was grab me, turn me around, and kiss me. in a very aggressive way. and at the theater he totally ignored the most explicitly obvious body language, like my folding my arms so he couldn't grab a hand, facing away from him as much as possible, turning my head away -- then finally getting up to sit on the thin, metal, blade-like part of the top of the seat, as far from his seat as possible.

    it was as if for every step I took backward, he took two giant steps forward toward me.

By heather on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 03:36 pm:

    i didn't read 'the rules' but g did and it's really damn funny when she brings them up

    yes, a lot of what cyst said sounds like the things g mentioned. maybe that just means that there's something to learn in that book after all. or maybe it doesn't.

    it doesn't seem like the guy in your story really did anything wrong- just that when it came down to it you didn't want to have a real relationship. or maybe you just wanted someone to treat you like crap at that point in your life, ignore you and shit.

By Antigone on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 03:37 pm:

    "It's an act. Open-heartedness is an act."

    And you know this for sure, about everyone?

    How sad.

By Spider on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 03:38 pm:

    I know I was kissing your ass, Cyst, but someone needed to say it.

    Shit, I almost typed something rude that I wouldn't have even meant. I don't know anything. Pretend I'm not here.

By heather on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 03:39 pm:

    it's not that i think that about you, spider. you just had appreciation for what cyst is saying and from my knowledge that stuff is in the book. maybe i was a bit harsh, i'm sorry.

    get a life and be confident in yourself, really, that's the only advice i have for anyone. and hopefully you don't need it.

By Spider on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 03:49 pm:

    It's not about a lack of confidence. It's about that pre-conscious, damn-near instinctive reaction of disgust and horror when someone collapses into a slobbering, foot-kissing heap on me when he's too self-centered to realize that his attraction isn't mutual. It's not about me, it's about him. It's about his feelings, not mine. What *he* wants, what *he* thinks. He should have paid attention.

    No, I don't know, Antigone. I don't know what I'm saying. Please show me I'm wrong.

By heather on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 03:56 pm:

    i was referring to when you like someone, not when you don't

    in that case, he's the one that needs to get a life

    and some people really need to figure out why they want to be treated badly, or coldly- not just at first, but always. i did.

By cyst on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 04:09 pm:

    it's not that I ever wanted to be treated badly, it was that I didn't want to be drooled on.

    he acted badly. I may have given him some small reason to believe I was attracted, which I greatly was. but then I retracted and retreated and he wouldn't let me. he broke into my room and read my diary and found out who I really liked then went and told the guy to stay the fuck away or else.

    I guess I shouldn't bring up examples from when I was a teenager.

By pez on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 04:11 pm:

    sometimes people aren't meant to be more than crushes.

    you meet them and they're really cool. you think you might like to date them. then you realize that you don't really like them in that way, but they want to get closer.

    it's sortof scary.

    what do you do? you still like them, so you don't want to break their heart. you don't want to lead them on.

    "stop. i can't. i'm not attracted to you this way." i guess this would be the simplest explanation.

    hopefully i won't treat anyone badly again, but i know i will. it's pretty much "human nature" and we all can be heedless.

By heather on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 04:16 pm:

    you didn't exactly mention the extreme of it, cyst. yeah, he sounds truly creepy.

    anyway. no more advice giving for me. fuck that.
    i found my wallet-thingy. yippee.

By J on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 04:17 pm:

    I know exactly what Cyst means and I never read the book,and that's how I operated back in the day. I've seen too many clinging,crying,women,over-emoitional assholes,acting well.. just desperate.

By Beanie on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 04:22 pm:

    you guys are hosers

By Hal on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 04:23 pm:

    You don't suck Rhi.

    We still love you, or at least I do. But seeing as we've never met lets just be friends. eh'

By cyst on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 04:28 pm:

    yes, he did act truly creepy. I didn't want to explain all the things that ended up being wrong about him because I didn't know about them when I started backing off.

    but later on I found out that during that year two women had put restraining orders on him.

By pez on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 04:31 pm:


    there are just some people you'd hope never to get stuck in an elevator with.

By Spider on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 04:33 pm:

    Thanks, Hal.

By Antigone on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 04:37 pm:

    "Please show me I'm wrong."

    How could I possibly do that?

By Spider on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 04:40 pm:

    By example.

By Antigone on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 04:45 pm:

    Been tryin'... You sayin' I'm not?

By Cat on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 05:16 pm:

    I disagree with Cyst about staying aloof.

    The man I loved the most was incredibly intense right from the start. From the moment we first met, in a gutter in Paris admittedly, we just had a connection that went beyond anything I'd known before or since.

    He proposed after a month, and considering I'd run to Europe because I'd freaked out that my now former boyfriend had proposed, you'd think I'd find that a bit frightening? Nope, it was the most natural and right thing in the World. Ok it all ended badly, but only after a couple of wonderful magic years that I still relive sometimes when I'm alone in the dark.

    There's a book, which is about a girl in New York who meets this wonderful guy and tries to play things by "the rules", like not returning his calls straight away and being too busy for him on occasional nights. Anyway it falls in a heap because he was turned off by her game-playing. What's the name of that book, you know you know it. TELL ME, DAMN YOU TO HELL IN SPUNKY'S SMELLY ARMPIT.

    What I'm trying to say is that there are no rules. Deliberately trying to play cool is just going to send him/HER confused signals. Don't play at being anything but what you are and how you feel.

    I love love.

By cyst on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 05:25 pm:

    ok. freak out. go ga-ga. paw, whine, grab, drool. call incessantly. lay it all on the line the moment you first meet.

    bonne chance!

By patrick on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 05:45 pm:

    i think every situation is different cyst.

    you could say i was gaga over nico. hardly pushed her away, and shes hardly a needy individual to desire that kind of attention.

    i think, it was apropos for the situation between us. We wanted, each of us, to swallow each other whole so to speak. You ever feel so strongly about someone...some sort of force inside you just makes ytou clinch your teeth together, and if you could, without the pain and cannibalism interpretations, just bite em? Maybe thats weird, buts thats how I am about her. I've never felt I needed a "night out" without her. Never felt like too much attention was bad. Its one thign to be possessive, its another to be so damn enthusiastic maybe...I dunno.

    All Im saying is, maybe all of this should truly be left up to individuals and each situation. Maybe no one has moved you to be completely gaga, dodo over.

    I do know teen boys don't really know what they are doing when it comes to kissing, and what not. Perhaps the creep jsut didnt know what to do.

    Im wondering thought cyst, why did you ever go to that show with him if you felt so strongly against him? You should have just said Im sorry i need to go now and left, instead embarrassing and making an ass outta him. Maybe its those sorta of incidents that fuel his seemingly subconscious or conscious aggression and possesion towards women.

    Don't mean to psycho analyze this.

    really i dont.

    actually you don't need to address the creep anymore. Its established he's a creep and what you do is your business.

By Hal on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 05:47 pm:

    No I agree...

    Rules Fucking Suck.

    Be yourself if they don't like it then they aren't for you.

By agatha on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 05:51 pm:

    on dave and i's first date, i invited him into my apartment, showed him a bunch of my stuff, and then panicked and told him that "i had to go". keep in mind, we were in my apartment. i'm sure he was totally baffled. for some reason, he stuck around for awhile after that.

    i always panic when entering relationships that seem like they may be meaningful.

    i do think every situation is different, absolutely. i've had clingy and nonclingy boyfriends. most of my boyfriends started out as friends, and some of them were totally instantaneous things when i already had a boyfriend. that was a long time ago, though.

    so yeah. i have no point.

By Cat on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 05:59 pm:

    "Don't play at being anything but what you are and how you feel."

    . o O now I'm quoting myself, how egotistical.

    I should have added that this advice only applies when you're in a mutual relationship. In other words, creepy ass stalkers need not apply.

By Nate on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 06:01 pm:

    >on dave and i's first date
    you can use 'my'. then you don't use the awk i's.


By Gee on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 06:08 pm:

    Will you stop being such a dork? You're scaring the chickens.

By agatha on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 06:09 pm:


By cyst on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 06:15 pm:

    the creepy stalker guy ended up being my friend. I knew I wanted him as a friend all along. he's really smart and interesting. he has just freaked out some girls, including me. he's a lot better now, though.

    also, I think it's good to do stuff without your partner once in a while, whether you "need" to or not. if the other person is there all the time, then it's harder to collect new stories to tell. also, if you're with the person, then it's harder to be out telling (nice) stories about them.

    I just think it's sort of freaky when people seem to be unable to function without having their other half around. or people who do absolutely nothing but pine for the other person when they're not there. yuck.

    anyway, if you both feel a great passion for each other right off the bat, then obviously there's no problem. it's mutual. but when you first meet a person, if you want to make sure you don't ruin it before it's begun, it's best to stick with a casual approach until things start to stabilize.

    like, what if nico wasn't sure about you at first, and you tried biting her? I just don't think that's a good approach in general.

By Cat on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 06:32 pm:

    Biting is always a good approach. With me anyway. Especially on my neck. If I was unsure before, it would really make me your slut slave.

By patrick on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 06:38 pm:

    i think she was unsure of me when i reached over and kissed her that first night. At least she was surprised.

    That very direct and aggressive approach didnt seem to set me back any. If anything it jsut made her more curious.

    I don't think we pine for the other so much, on a day to day basis. Only when she is gone for a long trip or something. its just we are so comfortable. We rest in each others prescence. Often when we go out, to parties and what not, we are like seperate individuals. All of our friends are the same so its rare we do things seperately.
    I've never felt the need to have a night out with others, nor has she.

    Maybe what Im trying to explain is unexplainable.

    In fact, I just learned of a story the other day, a party we were both at, but off doing our own things. She had decided to wear this 60s motorcycle helmet all night, just for the fuck of it (she looked hot with that and her leather). And well many keg beers later, in the backyard, apparently she tripped in a hole, and some guy picked her up, grabbed her by the helmet and kissed her. Who would have known. Great story, and many more from that same night with the helmet, crazy girl.

    We both function fine without each other around. Sometimes it IS nice to get our own time, like when i go to the darkroom, or she walks out, and gets her nails done etc. etc. But these things you speak of, the fawning, scratching, paawing etc...these are things people who are dating deal with. We aren't dating. We are about 6 1/2 years beyond dating. So maybe all of this moot, from my perspective anyway.

By dave. on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 07:45 pm:

    i've only been on a handful of real, honest dates. hopefully, i'll never have to do it again. if, on any of these dates, i ever had any inkling that i was being so ruthlessly critiqued in the way that spider and cyst seem to do, i hope that i would have enough of my wits about me to split and hopefully in a way that the other person got stuck with the bill.

    ironically, doing so would probably make women like that more interested.

    this whole thread offends me.

By Nate on Wednesday, August 8, 2001 - 07:45 pm:


By pez on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 03:13 am:

    i wish people wouldn't fuck with me because i'm naive. i know guys do.

    i wish men wouldn't ogle while i'm working, it makes me feel unsafe. the same with neighborhood boys (although in this case it wasn't ogling, and this wasn't recent).

    saying "oh baby" while staring at my butt while i bend over to reach a box on the floor doesn't help either.

    one thing about my parents: they worry about my well being, including risk factors for getting raped. i don't really appriciate this when it interferes with my social plans, but i'd much rather be a homebody than a victim.

    to tell the truth, i don't really care too much about what guys/men do with my body. if i'm scared, i say so.

    but i think it would be nice to go on a sterotypical honest-to-goodness date. i've only really been on a couple, and it sucks ass.

    if i want to go on a dat, i have to do the whole thing myself, which isn't a lot of fun. for once, i'd love to have a guy just out of the blue ask me out and have a good time. maybe a little kissing, but no devouring, no backseat of a car.


    i really have "cinderella syndrome" don't i?

    tomorrow i'm going to be low again.

By pez on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 03:58 am:

    oh, yes. low.

    and my gossipy grandmother will see it when i go to lunch with her.

    i really really want to hate men right now, but i have only one to be angry at. and i feel bad for being angry.

    i shouldn't.

    one more way to have a headache.

    glad some people know how to knock some sense into me.

By patrick on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 11:39 am:

    men will always ogle. this you cannot change. you have two choices: be annoyed by it all your life and cause yourself pointless stress, or accept it as their nature, that 95% of the men staring don't mean any harm and that its your parents who have raised you with this sheltered, scaredy cat complex that only you can work to get over. the other women here may have better words for you. staying at your parents only encourages and compounds the dependent, naive pez dilemma. getting out on your own, trying the world independently, forget dating for now. boys will always be around, they aren't going anywhere.

By pez on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 12:12 pm:

    how troo is that.

    tomorrow i'm going to buy a chair and bike stuff. it doesn't sound like a lot towards independence, but i think it will help keep my goals in mind.

    i can get around without a car. i can sleep at night without a bed.

    depending on material possessions is no reason to stay.

    and boys are even less reason.

By TBone on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 12:26 pm:

    material posessions just weigh you down.

    God, do I need to get rid of some shit. I have an unbelievable amount of crap I don't want or need.

    I'm losing it one way or another when we move next month.

By pez on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 12:29 pm:

    hal told me that you guys were going to have to move.

    i'm sorry.

By TBone on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 12:44 pm:

    Why are you sorry?

    It's our own fault. We can't make ourselves advertise for a roommate and try to pick one. Plus, the house we live in is falling apart, horrificly expensive to heat in the winter, deadly hot in the summer, the landlord is infamously evil, and the few windows that open have no screens.

    My sales-pitch earlier was pretty glowing for a place like this. I hate moving, but it will be good to find a place I can better afford. It's also good that it's smaller. It'll force us to get rid of junk.

By semillama on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 12:46 pm:

    rummage sale.

    If I had any idea of how to contact Mavis and have her respond, I would have her go out and organize it for you. She's good at rummage sales.

By Hal on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 12:52 pm:

    Ooh sale of crap... TBone you are hereby orderd to either have me work it with you or keep me as far from it as possible otherwise a good majority of your stuff will belong to me.

By pez on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 12:54 pm:

    spoken like a true packrat.

By TBone on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 01:15 pm:

    We need someone like Mavis to organize us.

    So much of it is odd electronics and components... I don't know how well we'd do trying to sell it here. I also have no concept of monetary value. I wouldn't know what to ask for anything.

    It could be fun though, and if I sell any of it, I'm better off than if I tossed it or GoodWill-ed it.

By pez on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 01:22 pm:

    you could.....

    break it up, wreck it, then jumble pieces together in odd tilty scuptures and spraypainted orange.

    and then attempt to sell them for $1,000 apiece.

    what am i saying? i don't sell art.

    don't sell it. deposit it in front of a grocery store (at night, while closed).

By spunky on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 01:27 pm:

    I love moving. So many things find their way to the trash!!!!

By semillama on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 02:17 pm:

    just to getback on topic for once, I actually do believe that men and women can be friends, no problem. I have many women friends I don't think of in sexual terms.

By patrick on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 02:37 pm:

    All I Really Want To Do
    Bob Dylan

    I ain't lookin' to compete with you,
    Beat or cheat or mistreat you,
    Simplify you, classify you,
    Deny, defy or crucify you.
    All I really want to do
    Is, baby, be friends with you.

    No, and I ain't lookin' to fight with you,
    Frighten you or tighten you,
    Drag you down or drain you down,
    Chain you down or bring you down.
    All I really want to do
    Is, baby, be friends with you.

    I ain't lookin' to block you up
    Shock or knock or lock you up,
    Analyze you, categorize you,
    Finalize you or advertise you.
    All I really want to do
    Is, baby, be friends with you.

    I don't want to straight-face you,
    Race or chase you, track or trace you,
    Or disgrace you or displace you,
    Or define you or confine you.
    All I really want to do
    Is, baby, be friends with you.

    I don't want to meet your kin,
    Make you spin or do you in,
    Or select you or dissect you,
    Or inspect you or reject you.
    All I really want to do
    Is, baby, be friends with you.

    I don't want to fake you out,
    Take or shake or forsake you out,
    I ain't lookin' for you to feel like me,
    See like me or be like me.
    All I really want to do
    Is, baby, be friends with you.

    i was listening to this last night. we wrapped up our evening, sittin on our balcony, sippin beers, trying to unwind. there is so much to do and think about in terms of this business we are doing. SO MUCH!!!!!! So it hard for us to unwind, turn off, shut down and rest. So we sat on the porch overlooking our neighborhood, the lights, the cars below, the mountains in the background. The ghetto bird over Glendale circling endlessly. Listening to Dylan, one of my favorite albums, "Another Side of Bob Dylan" on my old Magnavox hi-fi.

    Puffing on the pipe, havin some beers tryin to turn off.

By Dougie on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 02:46 pm:

    I've never heard his own version. All I've heard is the Byrds, which I quite like.

By Cat on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 04:59 pm:

    "i wish men wouldn't ogle while i'm working"

    Hey Pez, didn't you post about alerting the other girls at work so they could come check out some cute bloke who walked in?

    When you looked at him, you weren't seriously planning to assault him or anything, were you? You were just admiring him because it's your biological imperative to check out potential mates.

    My point is, maybe the guys ogling you are just doing the same. Don't let fear get in the way of enjoying being an attractive woman. Suck up the power and feel like you're in control, and that way you will be.

    I always worry about the "normal" guys who don't say anything...they're probably the mad rapists. The show-offs are easily flicked aside with a condescending "not in your lifetime" glance.

By cyst on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 05:06 pm:

    also, if you don't want to be ogled, don't wear t-shirts that say "tart!"

By Nate on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 05:12 pm:

    and don't have tits!

By bell_jar on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 05:17 pm:

    i would disagree with the show-offs being easily flicked aside. i was on the subway once when this guy was giving me the "hey baby" look. i just turned away and continued reading. i glanced up a few times and he was staring, and i would give him the "not in your lifetime glance" or in my case "you're really creepy, i'm not interested glance."

    so i get off at my stop and walk 5 blocks to my apartment, and when i get to the door i hear someone yell "is this your apartment?" i turn around and there he is. i'm trying to get my keys out and he comes up close to me and tells me how much he likes me.

    i tell him i'm not interested and he tells me that he lives a few stops away (this wasn't even his way home!) and we should get together and he likes me and blah...

    for a while i was scared to go home... well... in my neighborhood i'm always scared to go home, but especially with this guy knowing where i live.

By patrick on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 05:19 pm:

    you should have said "no, my boyfriend, the cop lives here."

By pez on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 05:33 pm:

    i've only worn the tart! shirt twice. once to an outdoor concert (it was like over 90 degrees on the outside of the crowd) and once to go grocery shopping.

    you don't wear that sort of thing for retail. no way.

    i usually wear button downs. olike this cool xl boys photo surfer shirt that i got brand new for $8.

    i was only 18 when i posted about the 'healthy hunk of manflesh'. that was before i got really annoyed about people ogling me so i don't do that anymore.

    i figure, i don't like being stared at, so why should i do it to others?

By TBone on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 05:53 pm:

    I have a tendancy to space out and stare through people. I've offended a number of people that way because they thought I was staring at them or some part of them.

    Or because they know I spaced out while they were talking to me.

    As shy as I usually am, I don't mind people staring at me.

    I guess I often do stare at people. I love people-watching. I think I have voyeuristic tendancies. I love to watch people who don't know I'm watching them. Nothing dirty, really. Just people on the street, or wherever. Doing anything.

    Ever since I was little, I wished I could be invisible and pass through matter. Just a mind and senses floating around.

    That's probably why I liked Serial Experiments Lain so much. She became that Benevolent Watcher.

By Antigone on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 05:56 pm:

    So, you changed your mind in the last few months, therefore the entire world should change as well?

By Cat on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 06:08 pm:

    "I have many women friends I don't think of in sexual terms."

    I'm quite attracted to some of my bloke buddies. I don't mean I am dying to jump them, but I do definitely find them attractive in a sexual way.

    I don't flirt with men until I like them and admire them but then...woooo hoo. I could flirt for Australia. That's probably a bad thing.

By patrick on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 06:10 pm:

    i realize i change in front of my window a lot. I swear its never intentional. The last thing I need is a woman who was walking with her little girl and the cops baning on my door for public indecency. But I our sock and underwear drawers are right by the window and sometimes the blinds are open, and well the bldg next to us and the street below, if looking could see it all. But i usually dont catch myself till ive got one foot in my shorts or pants.

    I often wonder, why,in the summer, with everyones windows open, we dont hear more sex going on.

By fuckhead on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 06:13 pm:

    "...I need is a woman who was walking with her little girl and the cops banging on my door for public indecency"

    we want our indecency and we want it now!


    post of the day wisper?

By el beso negro on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 06:27 pm:

    patrick tiene una verga grande para los niņos.

By pez on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 06:31 pm:

    no, i don't think i;'m that ego tistical.

    i still watch people. it should be a sport. but right now it's the off season.

    sometimes i catch myself staring at people's hands. you can tell a lot about a person by looking at the condition of their hands.

    i am an anthropology major, after all.

By patrick on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 06:31 pm:

    i have a great yard for the children?

    hable un lenguaje que usted tiene comando de Pepe

By el beso negro on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 06:50 pm:

    chinga babel fish. una verga es su "cock", amigo.

    mamame la verga, puta!

By wisper on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 06:56 pm:

    you don't hear more sex going on under my window because of the goddamn motherfucking shit fuck ass cunt bitch HEAT WAVE.
    I'm moving to Iceland. I have to. My rear-view mirror fell off when the glue melted. Just kill me. I don't want to leave the office and step in my no a/c car.
    It's too fucking hot.
    It's too hot to fuck.

By pez on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 07:03 pm:

    where are you wisper?

    i have "summer in the city" by the lovin' spoonfuls stuck in my head after reading that last post.

    it's too hot.

    thank goodness i have work later in an airconditioned building. and i left my windows open on my car.

By patrick on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 07:10 pm:


    its 75 degrees here. I don't think it broke 80 today.

    its barely broke 90 at all this summer.

By bell_jar on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 07:16 pm:

    it has been nice here until earlier this week. my
    roommates, the bastards, won't let me turn on the living
    room air conditioner. they say it is too expensive.
    however, bastard roommate #1 has an airconditioner in
    his room and he stuffs towels under his doors so none
    of the air will escape. i hate that i'm too much of a wuss
    to say something about me paying 1/3 of the electric bill
    and me sweating my ass off while he gets a good nights
    sleep because he can breathe.

By TBone on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 07:16 pm:

    Is it public indecency even if you're in your own home where you live? In Montana, it's not indecent exposure unless you kablooie or otherwise cause a kablooie and you are intentionally doing it to offend people. I think intent to kablooie also counts.

    Or so the law appears to state. Makes for some interesting protests and demonstrations.

    45-5-504, Indecent exposure. (1) A person who, for the purpose of arousing or gratifying the person's own sexual desire or the sexual desire of any person, exposes the person's genitals under circumstances in which the person knows the conduct is likely to cause affront or alarm commits the offense of indecent exposure.

By pez on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 07:37 pm:

    be mean and cruel and turn of the juice to his room, say that he'll save money because he won't have to pay for electricity.

By Hal on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 08:01 pm:


    Fuck you, you ass

    Its been friggin hot as hell here, I think we had some wind yesterday and as much as I hate wind it was nice, BUT THE FUCKING HEAT IS KILLING ME...

By Hal on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 08:02 pm:

    Sus calientes fucking, me comen hembra.

By pez on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 08:05 pm:

    it's so hot, my feet are gettin' cooked,
    oh, it's so hot, my feet are gettin' cooked,
    and my shoulders are gettin' fried from
    lack of sun lotion, because i never looked!

By Hal on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 08:06 pm:

    Pez ladies and gentlemen.


By No on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 08:10 pm:


By pez on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 08:12 pm:

    now i feel silly. and i smell like a mammal.

By wisper on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 08:14 pm:

    i'm in southern ontario.
    today it's 34c, which is in the 90-100s range. That, plus 44% humidity = old people dying in the area.
    Humidity is what gets you.

    Why is it colder in LA, why. It's not fair.

By pez on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 08:18 pm:

    i'm lucky because it doesn't get very humid here, despite the rain.

    but i have this annoying habit of wearing long pants all the time, which means the new maxis game, SWEAT CITY!

    it's good for the garden to get all this sun, so i can't complain too much.

By wisper on Thursday, August 9, 2001 - 09:29 pm:

    all our grass is dead, everywhere.

By dave. on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 12:09 am:

    dead grass is a temporary thing. 6 months and you'll wish it were dead.

By pezz on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 04:09 am:

    it's only really alive when it's the rainy season and you can't mow it because it's too wet.

By semillama on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 09:47 am:

    44%? I wish it would get down to 44% humidity.

    When we were in Mississippi a couple of weeks ago, it was 104 degrees fahrenheit with 100% humidity and we were working outside.

    Hopefully, it's cooler by the sea on Parris Island, where I am going in ten days to work.

By Hal on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 10:48 am:

    Its gradually been getting nicer here, "less hot" so I'm hoping today FRIDAY of all days should be nicer then all week.

    Boy do I ever set myself up for dissapointment.

By Platypus on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 11:45 am:

    I think it broke 50 on Tuesday.

By patrick on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 12:03 pm:


    wheres my post! i hate that.

    i was going to say wisper. It stays cool here because we are so close to the ocean, within 5-6 miles. Further, quite often we get a haze/fog or a marine layer that rolls in over night, and keeps direct sun out until noonish see? 3 Miles over the hill into the valley it gets 10 degrees hotter. 40 miles out to the mojave it gets about 30 degrees hotter. 120 with no humidity. heat to make your lips fall off.

By Hal on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 12:03 pm:

    I think I missed it, Semillama why are you going to work on Parris Island?

By semillama on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 12:19 pm:

    Got a contract with the Navy to survey some housing tracts.

By Hal on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 12:38 pm:


    Enjoy yourself, watch all those marines working so hard and you get to kick back in a job that although it may be some work, your not humping the 50 lb. pack 20 miles...
    Enjoy your line of work.

By pez on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 12:54 pm:


    reminds me of the stack of shoes i had to put away last night that i wouldn't've if i'd gotten away on time.

    damn slam.

    enough with the self-centered pity already!

    ok. have fun on the island, sem. MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

By Hal on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 01:42 pm:

    I think fun on Parris Island is a contridiction in terms.

By pez on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 02:33 pm:

    the name means nothing to me.

    therefore, i say have fun. even if it's only laughing about how people in the navy often wear white pants.

By semillama on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 02:41 pm:

    It's Marines.

    and the words "kick back" and "archaeological fieldwork" are mutually exclusive. We're going to bust our humps digging holes in 90-degree weather in direct sun, 8 hours a day for two ten day sessions.

By Hal on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 03:00 pm:

    Parris Island is where Marine boot camp is held Pez, not the center of fun for the universe. More like the United States Center For Organized Torture and Death Training. Addmission Free, Sign your name on the dotted line.

By cyst on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 03:06 pm:

    We met as soul mates On Parris Island We left as inmates From an asylum And we were sharp As sharp as knives And we were so gung ho To lay down our lives We came in spastic Like tameless horses We left in plastic As numbered corpses And we learned fast To travel light Our arms were heavy But our bellies were tight We had no home front We had no soft soap They sent us Playboy They gave us Bob Hope We dug in deep And shot on sight And prayed to Jesus Christ With all our might We had no cameras To shoot the landscape We passed the hash pipe And played our Doors tapes And it was dark So dark at night And we held on to each other Like brother to brother We promised our mothers we'd write And we would all go down together We said we'd all go down together Remember Charlie Remember Baker They left their childhood On every acre And who was wrong? And who was right? It didn't matter in the thick of the fight We held the day In the palm Of our hand They ruled the night And the night Seemed to last as long as six weeks On Parris Island We held the coastline They held the highlands And they were sharp As sharp as knives They heard the hum of our motors They counted the rotors And waited for us to arrive And we would all go down together We said we'd all go down together Yes we would all go down together

By semillama on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 03:34 pm:

    Parris Island is actually pretty nice looking, from what I've seen in the site photos.

By Hal on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 03:38 pm:


    Thats incredible.

By patrick on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 03:47 pm:

    its ok sem. just to the north i believe is Myrtle Beach which is the redneck riviera. To the south is Charleston and Hilton Head which are quite nice.

By semillama on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 05:27 pm:

    Charleston is to the north. Savannah is to the south.

    It's going to be ok, but they are rushing us into this job without much time to prepare.

By patrick on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 05:33 pm:

    i was confused. I was think of this area jsut south of myrtle beach. Pawnee Island or something like that.

    Charleston and Savannah are both really pretty old southern towns.

By heather on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 06:04 pm:

    we did stuff last night. it was g's birthday.

    first we had tapas and they had sangria and chris and ed told us how they ended up at a bar one night, a bar that has mostly bachelorette parties. they talked about how they were stared at there and 'the things women would say to them!!'
    g and i said things like 'wow, you must have been wearing your short shorts, i'm sure you deserved it'. and other stuff. funnier if you've had sangria.
    they were a bit uncomfortable but i think mostly they liked it although they were complaining.

    at midnight we were at walden pond. w brought wine and cake and i brought candles and there was skinny dipping [i am sick, i stayed away from water]

By patrick on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 06:29 pm:

    but did you loose your clothes?

By cyst on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 06:50 pm:

    I feel like I may have done something interesting recently, but I don't remember what or where or when.

    last night I got back some photos from a couple years ago. I had no idea what would be on them. a few photos are of handjob guy.

By pez on Saturday, August 11, 2001 - 02:01 am:

    heather (not sorabji heather, but one-time-best-friend heather, a heavy-metal harpist) wanted to join the marines. she was looking forward to the tear gas filled room.


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