Supreme Can men and women just be friends?: Supreme

By patrick on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 12:33 pm:

    Women are superior.

    Men are ridiculous.

    Ever see a mans ass during sex.


    Men are made the fools. Insensitives. Waging war or cuddling egos. The weaker of the sexes Im convinced.

    Any suggestion how to become comfortable with this fact?

By Nate on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 12:43 pm:

    reject it.

    women dictate what is to be valued in society. that is why you're confused at the moment.

By patrick on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 02:00 pm:

    to further complicate this matter, let me share a personal story.

    when we went to the hollywood bowl the other night, we went with our girlfriend P, her date G, and another couple. P had gotten the tickets for all of us, and didnt want any money in return, she justified this with the fact that we bought her plane ticket to Vegas next week.

    With about 20 minutes or so left in the show G, P's date, wanted to go smoke, he was getting ansy, so Nico says, "I'll go with you". YOu couldnt smoke at your seats. So they go, I stay with P and the other couple until about the last minutes of the show, and i go down and catch up with Nico and G, smoking. Well , the show ends, to be polite I go back up and help them with the trash and such. G and Nico stay and wait for us to come back so we can make our way out the gates.

    Well when P, the other couple and myself catch up to Nico and G, P's goes up to nico and G and says something to the effect of "You suck and you suck ....both.....thats so uncool you spent the last 40 minutes out here...blah blah" and storms off. Me, Nico and G look dumbfounded, and P with the other couple disapear into the crowd. We eneded up leaving seperately. G is confused, as he clarified with P he dint want any kind of serious gf or anything of the sort. He just came out of a marriage. We are fiurther dumbfounded how someone we thought we knew could be pissed they stepped out for the last 15 minutes of show. I find it hard to believe it was just about rudeness.

    It appears P was jealous that Nico spent the last (not 40) but maybe 15-20 minutes not watching the show with her date. It seems a weird mix of jealousy and possesion here.

    The thing is Nico did nothing wrong. Hell neither did he for that matter. This is not the first time another girl has unloaded on Nico for perceived deception. As if Nico's is responsible for these women's unstable egos. As if her talking with someones date while sharing a cigarette is somehow wrong.

    Now shes made to feel like she did something wrong, made to feel awkward when there is no just cause for the outburst.

    I feel sorry for nico at these times. Im glad "girlfriends" dont hold an y expectations of me in terms of their dates.

By cyst on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 02:00 pm:

    I once knew a guy who had grown up with a crush on one of the supremes. not diana but mary. one day he got to meet her, and he brought her flowers. I thought that was very nice.

    a few months later I was going through incident reports at a police station and I saw his name. he had been harassing his upstairs neighbor, calling her in middle of the night and asking her if she had ever wanted to be f**ked by a black man all night long. I did not think that was very nice.

By Antigone on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 02:07 pm:

    "As if Nico's is responsible for these women's unstable egos."

    Others are always for people's unstable egos.

By cyst on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 02:09 pm:

    patrick, your story does nothing to show that women are superior. the way you tell it, it sounds as if p, a woman, is the ridiculous, demanding one.

By patrick on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 02:20 pm:

    yes. which is why i prempted it with "to further complicate"

    Im not thinking woman are so superior anymore. This really stemmed from something Nico said to me, and shes apologized to me now.

By semillama on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 02:21 pm:

    Yeah, what she said.

    Although Cyst is probably superior to most men.

    Which is maybe why she said it first.

By patrick on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 02:26 pm:

    Yes P is known to me as a shit talker, catty 35+ year old woman who is desperate. I like her as she can be a fun gal, and I used to feel sorry for her, and would playfully flirt with her, BECAUSE i felt sorry for her, but it went to her head, as she took me seriously and one time said to nico, well "god why do girlfriends' husbands always flirt with me". Nico was naturally bothered by this. She KNEW i was always playful with P, but to hear it come back to her that way upset her. Nico advised i reconsider how others might interpret me. I realized I REALLY went overboard when she said to me "You know you want it". P is so UNattractive to me, the thought gives me shivers. I so DON'T want it.

    So yes she can be ridiculous.

By cyst on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 02:34 pm:

    actually, I am often petty and jealous.

    if I were on a date, and another woman went off to smoke with him for 20 minutes or 40 minutes during a show, I would probably be pissy about it.

    one time when I was 17 or 18 I told a girlfriend of mine (who was a year older) that I had a huge crush on a boy, and we drove out to this amateur astronomy club's star party like four hours away because I knew he would be there (with his toady friend).

    so we get there and I'm all excited that he's there, and I tell her so. and the four of us hang out, and she totally hits on him in a way that I hadn't learned yet. she knew that the whole reason we were there was because I liked him, and she fucking took over.

    I considered that a total betrayal, and over the next 10 years I did many worse things to other women. (and she developed a paunch and a lazy eye, ha.)

    while I'm not saying it's wrong for someone to go out and have a smoke with someone else's date, I will say that friends can always try to be sensitive to other friends' feelings.

By patrick on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 02:45 pm:

    i use the term date but im not sure if it was even that.

    P has admitted that they have just been fuck buddies and she doesnt want anything serious with this guy. Moreover, Nico is a married woman, she didnt do anything wrong.

    I don't see this as anything to be pissy over at all.

    If anyone has ANY concern to be pissy it should be me, the husband no?

By cyst on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 02:47 pm:

    ESPECIALLY if I were a very attractive, confident woman in my 20s and my friend was a catty, unattractive, 35+ year old woman who was desperate. I would be careful.

By patrick on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 02:49 pm:

    Nico can't be responsible for that.

By cyst on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 02:53 pm:

    clearly, you both knew in advance what sort of person p is.

    you chose to go out with her, knowing that she is petty-desperate-ridiculous-jealous-shit-talking-unattractive-catty-etc. and nico chose to go out to smoke with her date anyway.

    while that might not normally be considered a provocation, I think nico probably should have been able to guess that it would bother this desperate woman.

    but what do you care? it seems you both don't mind hurting this ridiculous bitch, whom you feel sorry for. if you have a problem with her petty jealous shit-talking, then you shouldn't go out with her anymore. if want to see her without provoking her, then you should both be on guard all the time.

By J on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 03:00 pm:

    Desperate woman usually are bitches.That just reminded me,at that party I had when I got pissed at Shaunna the bitch,a friend of mine who didn't know her asked me if she was going through a divorce.When I said she was and asked him how he could,he said she looked desperate.

By patrick on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 03:15 pm:

    we expect people to be reasonable and rationale cyst. we except people who know us and know us well, such as P, to know that we don't have any ill intentions, especially ones derived from her insecurities.

    In otherword...Nico had nothing but the highest expectations from this woman and our friends. She's not in the business of making these kinds of judgements and prempting someone's irrational fits. G, the "date" is her friend too. She went to smoke with her friend, period.

    We have never really thought of her entirely desperate, nor have we been in a situation like this with a "date" of hers.

    Its this woman who behaved irrationaly and illogically. Thats her problem. There was no intent to hurt anyone's feelings here.

    We shouldnt have to modify our friendships due to anothers insecurities.

    We do mind hurting a friends feelings if we have indeed done something wrong.

    Nico did nothing wrong by going to have a cigarette.

By cyst on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 05:02 pm:

    if you don't like hurting people's feelings, then you shouldn't hang out with people who behave irrationally and illogically.

    if you don't care, then it doesn't matter.

    along with being younger, less desperate, better looking, more rational, more logical, more reasonable, more secure, and better-intentioned, you can go ahead and be righteous too if you want to.

    there's nothing like hanging out with old, ridiculous, and unattractive friends to make you feel good about yourself.

    another example of how pity and contempt are really the same goddamn thing.

By bell_jar on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 05:38 pm:

    cyst, i love you.

By bell_jar on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 05:38 pm:

    well... love is kind of strong, but i like you alot.

By patrick on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 05:45 pm:

    wow thats kinda nasty dont ya think?

    "there's nothing like hanging out with old, ridiculous, and unattractive friends to make you feel good about yourself."

    we have friends. we don't choose friends based on their attractiveness or age. Otherpeople's love interests have nothing to do with us. We hang out with people who are generally a good time and appreciate our company and us theirs. This incident rather came as a shock to us, because she has never really exhibited such behavior before at least not to us.

    Our friendship with her or anyone has nothing to do with pity.

    I just don't think others should have to walk on thin ice because of MY problem. Or vice versa.

    If she had a problem with him going for 20 minutes to smoke with Nico thats between her and him.

    "if you don't like hurting people's feelings, then you shouldn't hang out with people who behave irrationally and illogically."

    what a bunch of shit. we all have our faults but when they start scapegoating nico's normal actions...for their insecurities well yes we do end up dropping them as friends.

    A good buddy of ours....his girlfriend is the worse case scenario of this. She's totally blown up at Nico because she felt threatened by nico's innocent actions. Totally possessive, fucked up, irrational, insecure, petty and childish. The fucked up part NOW we don't get to hang out with HIM anymore because of her. How fucked is that. We've been friends longer with him than her, but shes totally taken over his life, and he's too passive to do anything about. Except cheat when he's working on films out of the country, or come on to other girls when in the bar without her. But the minute nico does something that COULD be interpreted as a "come on", despite my presence in the room all hell breaks loose.

    this has nothing to do with righteousness. It has everything to do with getting a hold of your emotions.

    the more i reread, thats really nasty cyst. fuck.

    I spoke with nico cause this girl was to call nico and talk to her about it this afternoon.

    I shared some of your comments. Nico clarified for me (nico is the girlfriend and hears P's POV about dating and love and whatnot more than I do).

    Nico doesnt seem to think shes as desperate as I may have painted her to be. Nico did say P's emphasized in the past that this guy was not even really date material...but really just friends, and possibly drunk "why not" fuck buddies.

    So who knows.

    But that post makes you sound bitter cyst, what gives?

By patrick on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 05:47 pm:

    belljar do you even know what you are saying?

By patrick on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 05:59 pm:

    moreover cyst.....had it been me, instead of nico, she probably wouldnt have blown up like she did. If was the fella's it would have been ok, but the fact that it was girl....bullshit sexist double standard.

    I admit at times I've expressed insecurity to nico, when shes held the compnay of other guys. But its expressed in private. I've never and wouldnt make a scene, like these people have. there would be no point in me getting upset at the other person. Its not their fault.

    I have had to learn to be comfortable with her guy friends as well as her girlfriends.

By bell_jar on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 07:12 pm:

    i know what i'm saying, do you?

    i have been admiring how cyst seems to tell people things that they don't want to hear, but maybe they need to hear. you're having quite a reaction, maybe you should look at it and see if there is some truth in what is being said.

By Hal on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 07:15 pm:

    As much as I hate to say this Patrick this is all so fucking High-schoolesque. Not on your part mind you but the whole situation. For christs sake the woman was being a bitch, you don't deserve the treatment given, neither did Nico or 'G'. This 'P' woman needs to be just left alone, you don't need her permission to hang out with 'G', he doesn't live with her does he? Call him up go have a beer or two, fuck 'P' all to hell.

    I realize that since I've revealed my age in the last few months (or at least it became more of an issue for some reason) I'm taken less seriously. Oh well thats fucking life, people haven't been taking me seriously because of my age for years. Patrick you and Nico are good people, and unless you do something "WRONG" as in horrible or deplorable then either of you gettings scolded for it is pointless/childish/stupid/moronic/etc. The Bitch feels as though she was put off because they went to smoke, well fuck her. If I go to the bar with a date and see a friend of mine, and go over to talk to him for a few minutes and she has a major problem with that then she's not worth it. I have friends, this 'P' woman seems to be demanding attention she's not getting, well fuck her we don't always get what we want.

    Oh and cyst, I like you a lot too.

By patrick on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 07:24 pm:

    bell jar

    there is no truth in what cyst has said.

    we aren't being righteous. There was no pity involved in our friendship with this person. We don't choose friends based on attractiveness or age or anything. She seemed to imply we hang around these people to make ourselves feel good which is also entirely untrue. cyst also seems to think, if we know this person to be like this, which we didnt entirely, we should avoid said person. Which is certainly sound advice if this is a repeat occurance, which it isnt yet.

    it seems you are bandwagon-ing belljar. What exactly are you agreeing with in terms of the discussion related to my scenario? Saying "she says things that people dont want to hear" is, in my opinion and amateur assesment of her words. Which I can see someone your age totally swooning over.

    I look for truth in what anybody says about me, Im not above criticism at all and totally have the ability to admit a wrong doing on my part.

    I agree hal, it is highschool. we didnt bring it on...its kinda of a drag of what others will thwart upon you.

By cyst on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 08:05 pm:

    what I said was an exaggeration of what I really think of all this (which is actually not much). it was also nastier than it needed to be.

    I believe all that you say about not choosing your friends for their looks, and nico's actions were not threatening, and that p. had told nico that she and her date were not really serious.

    however, I still think that you guys had some idea of what this woman, your friend, was like. you think she is so pathetic that in the past you have flirted with her out of pity. do you have any idea how condescending that sounds?

    clearly, she is jealous of nico. and why wouldn't she be? nico's a young, intelligent, beautiful woman in a good marriage with a young, intelligent, beautiful man (who has flirted with her in the past).

    now, it's all true that nico wasn't trying to steal p's man (who she even said was not a serious thing at all), and she's even married, and all they did was smoke, blah blah blah, and the woman, if she were more reasonable and gracious, shouldn't be bothered. but she is bothered. she is a desperate woman, and she will see any faintly positive attention as a blatant come-on, and she will see the slightest negative (like her date going off to smoke with your wife at the end of a concert) as a profound betrayal.

    you already knew she didn't see things clearly. you already knew she tended to misinterpret others' words and actions.

    so you can go ahead and feel that you are in the right -- that's fine. you already have all of the advantage, and you can add rightness to that list. nico doesn't have to apologize.

    but -- if you want to continue to see this woman, please act like you are cognizant of the way she thinks and feels. she is probably the sort of person who is very concerned about seating arrangements. she will probably lift her eyebrows at an especially sexy dresses nico may choose to wear. she is going to look for meaning where there is none, and if that bothers you, then you need to drop her.

    all I'm saying is sometimes it's hard to deal with women who are younger and sexier and look hot in red leather pants. I just deal with it, but I can see how other women who feel less secure might be likely to get all prickly when such women go off and have a smoke with their dates.

By Gee on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 08:09 pm:

    Oh, Patrick. I know it seems bad now, but you're just a teenager, and when you grow up you'll realise it's not that big a deal. now stop being so melodramatic.

    Oh wait, I'm sorry, you're not a teenager. I guess I was just so used to seeing you give that speech to Pez it kinda slipped out.

    I would also like to add that I really hate it when people tell long stories involving many people who are all refered to by initial. That's really annoying. if you're going to tell a story involving more than two people, you really should use proper names. even if they're made up. it just makes things clearer.

By bell_jar on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 08:11 pm:

    "Which I can see someone your age totally swooning over."

    fuck you. i hate it when people play the age card.

    "There was no pity involved in our friendship with this person"

    I thought pity meant "feeling sorry for" and i thought you said you felt sorry for her.

    my misunderstanding.

    "What exactly are you agreeing with in terms of the discussion related to my scenario?"

    i didn't say i was agreeing with anything. honestly, i have just been seeing cyst post some pretty direct assessments of people and for the most part they seem to elicit a great deal of defensiveness.

    as my defenses rose when you commented about my age, i knew that it was because you hit a nerve for me. i know that people generalize my knowledge and capacity to look at the world because of my age.

    i HATE that.

    maybe they are right, i have done it myself to people younger than me. however, i don't like hearing it, and it makes me defensive.

    so why are you getting so defensive? if there is no truth in what cyst said then let it go. i just thought you should look at your response.

    i don't know what's true for you, i just know that you seemed to have a few loose ends in some of your statements. feeling sorry, but no pity. expecting your friends to know you well, but not expecting yourself to know them well...

    ah me.

    i like how cyst's comments throw up a mirror.

By cyst on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 08:13 pm:

    I'm not really bitter, patrick, though I have been on both sides of that situation, and I feel I understand it pretty clearly.

    there was definitely a time in my past when I would go outside and have a smoke (or make out in the bathroom) with someone else's date, but now I just think it's better to act on the side of caution and respect.

    however, I also must admit I am not a smoker. since I have many good friends who do smoke, I have had a lot of chances to notice that smokers really do like to smoke together--with just about anyone, in fact--instead of alone.

By bell_jar on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 08:16 pm:

    uhh... cyst... since i proclaimed my love to you, could you give me your email address?

By cyst on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 08:24 pm:

    sure. but don't think I'm ignoring you if I don't respond right away. this weekend I'm leaving for mexico for a few weeks.

    I'm never really sure what to say when people proclaim their love for me. um, thanks! I know I sound nasty a lot of the time, but I figure if I've never met the people involved, then my statements can be easily dismissed.

    bell_jar -- go see "ghost world" if it's playing anywhere near you. it's about 18-year-old girls. and there's a lot of truth in it.

    "a new film specifically for weirdos":

By cyst on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 08:29 pm:

    patrick -- "had it been me, instead of nico, she probably wouldnt have blown up like she did. If was the fella's it would have been ok, but the fact that it was girl....bullshit sexist double standard."

    yes, yes, yes. that's exactly what it is. if you had gone out and had the same exact conversation nico did, went out and stood in the exact same places for the exact same length of time, everything would have been fine.

    that is totally true. I am sure of it.

    you know what else? it gets worse. I bet if nico had been old, ugly, and fat, then p. wouldn't have given a damn, either.

    are you wondering how it is that I know this and you don't, even though you've met her and I haven't? it's because I'm not pretending that things aren't the way they are.

By wisper on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 01:47 am:

    holy shit.

By pez on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 02:26 am:

    as a female, i reserve the right to be jealous. in addition, i reserve the right to maintain a "cool and collected" aura.

    and if this is all because i'm only a teenager and i'll grow out of it, i'm not looking forward to next january.

    but in all seriousness, if a woman is known for her flirting and her jealousness, i wouldn't double with her. dating and going out is weird enough without everyone going "holy shit!"

    ok. just-off-work brain. sorry.

By patrick on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 12:08 pm:

    i know gee, writing it, I realized it may bother some.

    bell jar i play the age card because whether you like it or not, it plays a role. We all are one various rungs of the same ladder. The difference between your age/experience and mine or cyst's seems like a galaxy. If i were your age, I'd think's cyst's comments were the shit too. Shes very articulate and effective. But in this scenario, half right. And its mostly my fault, for not painting a clear picture of this other person. Im not as articulate as she, so things were lost in the transmission.

    "are you wondering how it is that I know this and you don't, even though you've met her and I haven't? it's because I'm not pretending that things aren't the way they are."

    No im not wondering how you know this. Its not a hard conclusion to draw. While this may be a truth, a reality, it doesnt make it right and I don't have to play along in that game. So i suppose in that regard I am being righteous. I don't need other people's pettiness, insecurities or jealouse tendencies. I have enough of my own.

    No one is pretending, we're just choosing not to recognize the fallacies of her emotions. Its not that we are denying them, Im just not going to play into that silly web. To me, if we address it as if its OK, apologize and tread lightly we condone this behavior. We don't.

    Im disapointed to see that you could be on her side of the fence. It seems shallow and sad. I have higher regards for you cyst. I wont "pretend" you are something you arent but do you think you are better than that? I do.

    I mean you think its ok for women to shoot down other women in this manner? You think this is beneficial to your gender? Do you condone this kind of behavior? Yeah you can be a realist and understand it, and even behave in such a manner but that doesnt make it right. And frankly its not very conclusive to maintaining otherwise good friendships.

    Pez im not sure i understand you. Nico is not known for her flirtiness, she is just interpreted as flirty by other insecure catty women. She is no more a good friend than any of the fellas. (P)Patty is not known for her jealousness either. At least we've never really seen it. Also, she is not as desperate perhaps as I have painted her. I don't think she is as pathetic as perhaps you have interpreted. In fact I hope I havent used that word, because its not how I feel.

    I should also clarify, perhaps it was pity for her that I felt, to thwart me to be sweet and flirt with her, BUT....BUT that was not the basis of our friendship. Pity may have been in the mix somewhere, but it certainly wasnt the dominant aspect of our friendship. I was her friend regardless of that. I honestly and truly wanted to make her feel good about herself. Maybe it is pity. Maybe I should stay out of the business of trying to make people feel good about themselves. She seemed to take the ball and run with it.

    "you already knew she didn't see things clearly. you already knew she tended to misinterpret others' words and actions."

    well, no, not really. She is one of the few girlfriends we actually like to hang out with. We actually thought she was above this kind of behavior. Shes bloke-like, trash-talkin, surly, negative girl from Philly who likes to drink and can tell ya what a "roader" is. As I said when this all went down we were dumbfounded.

    its ok, im not as irritated about it as I was yesterday.

By Hal on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 12:10 pm:

    Bell_jar how old are you, (yes I just commited the most grevious of all sins, asking a woman her age, but I think under the circumstances it was really my only choice to find out.)

    People play the age card with me a lot, but it seems only after they discover my age. I've known some people who thought I was over 22 for almost a year and never pulled anything, then one day they found out I wasn't and next thing you know its an age issue. People are so fucking petty.

By Antigone on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 12:24 pm:

    bell_jar is 98.

    I hope she doesn't mind me revealing that.

    Anyway, cyst, it's doubtful you know what you think you know. All you've seen is a short description of the situation. Your "knowledge" of P and patrick's interactions is mostly based on your biases and assumptions.

    Unless you're psychic, of course.

    And, bell_jar, patrick is defensive because cyst is attacking him. And just because she speaks harshly and directly does not mean she speaks the truth.

By cyst on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 12:42 pm:

    I think the gist of what I have said is that if you want to get along with sensitive people, then you should be very careful not to hurt their feelings.

    if you think dealing with sensitive people is more trouble than it's worth (as I have often decided), then go ahead and smoke with their dates.

    if you don't want to deal with other people's petty insecurities and jealousies, then don't go out with petty, insecure, and jealous people.

    I don't see what's untrue about those statements.

    my knowledge of p and patrick's interactions is based on what he has told me.

    I don't think I'm going out on a limb to assume that this desperate, ugly, jealous, old, petty, insecure woman would be more bothered by her date going off with a young, hot, confident, secure, sexy, attractive woman than with some fat, old, ugly woman or another guy. right or wrong, this makes sense.

By patrick on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 01:05 pm:

    yes cyst that is the gist of what you have said.

    you aren't going out on a limb there. But you are going out on a limb calling this person "desperate, old, jealous,petty, insecure" And that may be partly my fault. She exhibited inklings of these traits and she's 37 (is that old?) but Im not sure I would generalize her as THIS kind of person.

    To me, it doesnt make sense. No more than a man killing his cheating wife makes sense. Yeah we understand it, and the emotions that may have raged through an extent, but it doesnt make sense.

By Antigone on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 01:12 pm:

    Nice lists of adjectives, cyst. Do they really fit the situation? Do they describe the reality of patrick's experience? Maybe. Do you know this for sure? Nope. But you talk as if you do.

    Caricature all you like, but don't believe you really know what's going on.

By Nate on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 01:19 pm:

    fuck this thread is dry.

    i don't think people are as complex as they would like to believe.

By patrick on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 01:25 pm:

    here's the juice. Patty spoke with nico a moment ago.

    patty has no problem with nico.

    she was pissed at G, because apparently she has extended herself helping this cat out recently, and she was put off he was spending so much time talking to nico and I. Shes not mad at us, she was just put off with him.

    Here's the crap-ass part. We like this guy, he's a nice, interesting charming guy. Patty doesnt want to see this guy ever again, so now we have to walk on ice to make sure we don't ever assist them in crossing paths. She's dictating the terms of our friendship with him now to a small extent. So if we have a party, we can't invite both of them because she cant be an adult about this.

    Why can't people be adults about this shit?

By cyst on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 01:26 pm:

    my description ("desperate, ugly, jealous, old, petty, insecure woman") was just a paraphrase of what patrick has said. I'm assuming that since patrick brought up her age ("35+") that he considers that relatively old.

    if you reconsider the information I was given, I think you'll find that my description was wholly accurate:

    "P was jealous"

    "P is known to me as a shit talker, catty 35+ year old woman who is desperate."

    "I used to feel sorry for her"

    "these women's unstable egos"

    "derived from [P's] insecurities"

    "P is so UNattractive to me, the thought gives me shivers. I so DON'T want it."

    "So yes she can be ridiculous"

By J on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 01:30 pm:

    Why do you feel like you have to be dictated by her? Fuck her,that's her problem,not yours.

By cyst on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 01:30 pm:

    is that really your only party invite problem?

    I have recently decided that I will always warn guests of potential conflicts and let them decide for themselves whether to come. the only time I will invite one party and not another is in the case of extramarital affairs. I won't invite both a spouse and a former or current lover from during the marriage. that's just too ugly.

By Hal on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 01:34 pm:

    I have to agree not your problem, hers, let her deal with seeing the fuck again. Its not your responsiblity to keep them seperated like children. Fuck her.

By patrick on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 01:42 pm:

    no cyst, you weren't being unreasonable (antigone) you were working of what i was feeding, and as I said thats partly my fault.

    I don't think it my part to warn anyone.

    I expect people to be adults.

    Because joe fucked my friend suzy who happens to be married, Im not going to NOT invite Joe or Suzy, thats their mess to tangle with. If they act like asses I kick em out.

    lets talk about something else.

By TBone on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 01:46 pm:

    I don't know why some people can't be adults about such things. People can be like that at any age. There are also people who are "adult" quite young.

    I had those same problems with friends in High School. There were always friends who didn't get along with each other. I was always the guy in the middle who was forced to decide between friends because they couldn't just be mature about one another. I dont see most of those people much anymore. I think some of them have developed problems with me because they think I chose someone else over them. I just choose to be spend time with the ones who could be mature around those they didn't like.

    I would have to agree that it's unfair to dismiss someone's opinion or problems or agreement with another by saying "That's because you're young."
    Or maybe it's just as fair for people to say "You can't understand because you're too old." Sometimes the problems are different of course. Most people in their late 20's or 30's don't have issues problems with, say, moving away from home. To say, for example, "You don't have any problems" because you're doing just dandy living without your parents is implying that just because someone is young, their problems aren't real.

    And I think that in general, people are more complex than others think they are, but less complex than they themselves think they are.

    Thank you.

By bell_jar on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 01:58 pm:

    patrick is being attacked and i don't know what the truth is, and i don't care. i just wonder if her points might have hit home.

    i just like her, and i like how people respond.

    "bell jar i play the age card because whether you like it or not, it plays a role. "

    sure it plays a role, but i think you make it a much bigger deal than it really is.

    it is condescending as fuck to say i say things because of my age. really patrick, you only know what i choose to tell you. you have no idea that your experiences make you more mature or higher on the ladder than my experiences.

    it's a cop out. you would rather say i'm too young to understand or so young that it's only natural i be wrong than to acknowledge that i can have my own thoughts that aren't wholly dependent on the number of years i've been alive.

    and it doesn't matter if you are my age or not, you are NOT me so don't think that you would respond as i do.

By Hal on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 02:06 pm:

    Age is irrelivant.

    Experience is not.

By patrick on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 02:50 pm:

    I never said anyone was too young to understand anything.

    I based my comments off what you said, and your words speak enough. Your post sounds just that of a 19, 20, 21 year old. Knowing your age is ancillary. The fact that you (and hal) are slighly defensive and sensitive to my comments are also indicative to your age. Im aware that you probably hear it alot, I did, and I probably would be reacting just like you when i was your age.

    If someone 35+ says something like that to me, like I might have said to you I have learned to take it into consideration because in my experience, what older folks told me when I was younger have been more right than wrong.

    I don't think cyst would "attack" me, or nico. She may have been nasty, but i've been nasty to people i like.

    If you wonder if her points hit home, let me tell you bell jar... not really. She just confirmed what I already knew. We really just have a difference of opinions on the matter, thats all belljar.

By patrick on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 02:53 pm:

    in general hal, age doesn't mean anything. Take this from someone whose majority of friends are 5-15 years older.

    But age is a good benchmark of where someone's frame of mind may be.

    My older friends didn't judge me based on my age, if anything have always been amazed that im so much younger than they and the ability to speak to them as if I were their contemporaries. But they do have the right to say "ahh you remind me of me when i was your age, or ahhh sounds like something i would have said at your age" and Its nothing i take offense too.

By patrick on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 02:59 pm:

    i know teens like to think they are special, exclusive and no body understands them, but we do. More than you know.

By Hal on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 03:04 pm:

    More people understand me then I would care to admit. But I understand that with age comes wisdom (at least some of the time.) As TBone well knows, most of my defensiveness isuess come from highschool, although I'm doing much better with them now. Until a few months ago, the majority of sorabji didn't even know I was 19, I kinda miss that because I was viewed as not being the "youngin" that majority of my friends in fact all of them that I can think of are older then me by at least a strech of 2-15 years. I hang out with these people because i understand them people my own age, also the seem to understand me. I get no more defensive then anyone else here at Sorabji, I just do it in my own way. With TBone its different, we spend a majority of spare time naililng on each other, its the order of things, and the way we are, sometimes it just transfers over to Sorabji.

By heather on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 03:36 pm:

    i just noticed that it's been a long while since patrick got all pissy and crazy when being confronted.


By pez on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 03:47 pm:

    she's not meant to be understood.

    after work at 11, midnight is not the best time for pez to post on message boards. retail is crazy, even if she's crazy already.

    wait a second....

    pez is listening to the radio and that new butthole surfers song (shame of life) is playing and there was a line about "squirrels smoking crack."

    don't quote her on this. she's just received an electric shock, curtoesy (sp) of the toaster.

    be pissy! be crazy! be a drama queen! just be!

By Antigone on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 03:51 pm:

    refer to yourself in the third person!

By pez on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 04:00 pm:

    that too.

    it took a bit of tweaking, but i couldn't say "i" after that toaster SHOCKED ME AND GAVE ME A HEADACHE.

    damn you toaster. all toasters are house-demon apartments. they like to toss your toast into the air so it lands on the floor next to the cat dish and if you wash it off to eat it, it defies the reason to toast it in the first place, dammit.

By cyst on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 04:58 pm:

    I like patrick and nico. I also like to argue.

By patrick on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 05:01 pm:

    me too

By bell_jar on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 05:02 pm:

    i like lemonade

By Nate on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 05:03 pm:

    can i go home now?

By semillama on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 05:12 pm:

    I can't.
    must wait for fax...

By patrick on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 12:18 pm:

    so the drama continued.

    This "friend" of ours...Patty...caused aother scene. This time involving me directly.

    The problem is, she and Nico over the last couple of years have become girlfriends.And well Nico "hired" her to come to Vegas with us to work. Patty is a wardrobe designer for movies and has a fashion sense as well. We paid her ticket and hotel and her way into the show.

    Anyway...this guy involved with her before, "G" showed up at Sams party Sat. We had invited him before the shit went down the week prior, and we even warned Patty that, he may very well show up, we had invited him before hand, and we werent about to call him up and uninvite him.

    So, then patty shows up, and they go off and talk, G and her. Patty has a big bug up her ass and threatens Nico not to go to Vegas with us and work the booth because we invited him over. Nico explains we invited him before the shit went down, and bascailly calms her for the moment. My problem is Patty can't be a fuckin adult about this, and Im starting to boil because she was tearing into Nico due to her own territorial and immature ways.

    Later in the evening when people go to the fair and come back to the party, sure enough, he shows up again, as does she. Can she be at the party, ignore him and go about her business? Nooooooooo. Shes got to piss on everyone and everything.

    Shes's getting into nico again when I go up and get into the mix. She goes off about How I should have consulted her blah blah . I remind her he was invited before, and I sure as hell wasnt going to uninvite him. I told her that if she wanted him to leave, she could go ask him to leave, but I was glad he was there. He's a nice guy and because shes has prozacian problems with him, do not expect me to share them. Im not playing teams. She then said something smart-assed about me being his best friend. She was all loud and in my face and I asked her calmly, to get out of my face, loose the aggression because I dont't respond to that. I told her what is between him and her, stays there and what is between he and i is between he and I. She said because they WERE (past tense) dating for a bit, that I had to "run these things past her". For a 37 year old, she sure as hell acted like a teenager. I told her I wouldn't be party to her territorial pissings and she didnt own him or me and if she couldn't be an adult about all of this, we would forever had problems. She doesnt want to see this guy again, and we have been friends for sometime.

    The dumb bitch is about to piss away a decent friend for someone she doesnt even want to date anymore, for no damn good reason either.

    dumbass dumbass dumbass.

    moreover for making a scene. moreover for getting me all riled up....attacking me like that, when Im already buzzed and not prepared to get into it. I handled myself well, was impressed that when cornered like that I usually come out swinging. It must have been the margaritas.

    anyway, unless she bails, or nico ditches her, I gotta spend 3 days in Vegas with this ass.

By wisper on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 12:58 pm:

    if she bails can i call dibs? i'll work your damn booth.
    free trip to Vegas!

By patrick on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 01:05 pm:

    eh.....the tickets are already booked and you'd have to get to LA first for the prep meeting this week, so we can brief you on what to say , whom to talk to and when to get violent if anyone trys to photograph our goods.

    we dont have it in our budget to fly you into LA, muchless to Vegas. In all honesty, we had flight vouchers we had to use by Sept we werent THAT put out. The hotel is $40/night.

By Nate on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 01:27 pm:

    can't you generally cancel hotels 24 hours in advance?

By patrick on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 01:30 pm:

    hotels yes, airfare, considering we used vouchers, I think are in stone.

By Chupacabra on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 03:16 pm:


By agatha on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 09:59 pm:

    ditch her. now.

    you don't need her, and she's not worth the headache.

By Platypus on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 10:44 pm:

    Ditch ditch ditch.

    And tear into the airline. I've bought tickets on vouchers before that HAD to be changed, and basically they said they weren't totally cool with it, but if I gave them two or three weeks notice and was willing to end up in standby, that they would change them for me.

    Airlines are here to SERVE, Patrick. Take shameless advantage of them.

By pez on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 01:53 am:

    yes yes yes, because they'll fuck ewe over if you don't.

    that's the nature of buisness. corporations, anyway.


By Nate on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 11:09 am:

    i like it when pez says "fuck ewe"

    make me think about the farm.


By patrick on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 11:16 am:


By patrick on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 11:27 am:

    the reality is.....the voucher expires in 20 days, so its use it or loose it. Its a $100 voucher that is really only good for a ticket to and from Vegas, from LA. We need the help, but not at that price. Im perfectly happy to do it with out her as we have 2 others on hand. I sent her an email that basically gave her my piece but asked her to forget it. She wants to forget this guy, i want to forget her bullshit. I didnt ask for an apology because i dont think shes big enough to apologize to me, say i basically made it easy for her.

    she certainly lost a lot my respect thats for sure.

By Hal on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 12:27 pm:

    Yeah... Fuck her...

    (Methaphorically Speaking of Course.)

By Joe on Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 12:27 am:

    all meaningless

By patrick on Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 11:17 am:

    eat a dick joe

    a fine example of meaningless indeed, your post.

    i love ass monkeys who roll in...and sit atop a judgemental rock, and lob a statement like that into the mix. Makes em feel good and supreme but reaks of shallowness.

By Antigone on Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 11:51 am:

    all Joelessness

By Hal on Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 12:26 pm:

    I'm sorry patrick... I'll never do that again.

By patrick on Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 12:35 pm:

    what the fuck are you talking about

By Hal on Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 01:06 pm:

    I don't know, its only 11:04 and I haven't had enough caffeine.

By patrick on Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 01:24 pm:

    you should just get a coke habit man.

By Coke Habbit Man on Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 01:28 pm:

    I serve no one but myself!

By Hal on Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 01:40 pm:

    No to fucking expensive and the side effects are to random.

By semillama on Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 02:05 pm:

    like the missing "o".

    I hate that part.

By Hal on Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 02:14 pm:


By TBone on Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 02:57 pm:

    It's ok Hal. Here, take these. Here's some water.

By pez on Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 04:26 pm:


By Chupacabra on Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 04:29 pm:


By pez on Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 04:36 pm:

    shuddup already. *snort*

By Chuck on Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 05:51 pm:

    chupacabra = almost as funny as "Satan"

By Hal on Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 06:10 pm:

    Probably the same fool.

By cyst on Thursday, August 23, 2001 - 02:16 pm:

    yes, drop her.

    there isn{t much to do in san blas, nayarit. it{s all pool, beach, readingm, suntanning, fucking, ceviche, margaritas, modelo, limonada, sopa marinero, camarones, etc. two more weeks. fuck.

By Justin on Sunday, August 1, 2004 - 10:52 pm:


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