I don't know

sorabji.com: Can men and women just be friends?: I don't know

By Sjl on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 05:05 pm:

    I find that most men try to get me into bed even when I am not interested at all in that sort of relationship with them.

    I find that I can sleep with some men and still remain friends with them.

    Ok, I am terrified of relationships. Casual sex is easier. I am freaking out because I just filled out a form designating someone as my significant other so that I can get him special airfare rates that I get (I'm paying under $300 for both of us to fly r/t from Denver/New York to San Francisco, doesn't that rock?).

    Anyways, there are just so many times that I want to go camping or hiking with someone and NOT sleep with them, and then the guy gets all pissed off and calls me FRIGID. OK, so if a guy doesn't want to sleep with a woman, it's because she's fat or ugly. If a woman doesn't want to sleep with a man, it's because she's frigid.

By eri on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 05:25 pm:

    "Anyways, there are just so many times that I want to go camping or hiking with someone and NOT sleep with them, and then the guy gets all pissed off and calls me FRIGID."

    That is because he doesn't think of you as a "friend". Even casual sex can lead one party into the whole "girlfriend/boyfirend" attitudes.

    The only way to remain friends with the opposite sex is to keep sex out of it.

By patrick on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 05:38 pm:

    what about the same sex?

By J on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 05:51 pm:

    How about ass sex?

By eri on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 06:06 pm:

    I guess you really shouldn't have sex with any of your friends, but I have only had to turn down a female friend once in my life, so I must be sheltered. Sex fucks up friendships, male, female, ass, group, orgies, whatever. Once sex enters the picture the lines of the frienship get distorted and people attach feelings to it whether they intend to or not.

By patrick on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 06:13 pm:

    "Sex fucks up friendships, male, female, ass, group, orgies, whatever."

    if you're mature and realistic about it, it doesnt.

By Christopher on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 06:17 pm:

    The only way that people of either sex can get it off together and not have it interfere with their friendships is if there is no friendship to begin with. In other words, only fuck your enemies.

    I have a straight friend that wanted to give me the gift of a one-nighter for Christmas one year. I had a pretty wild Christmas party, and after everyone left, he made good on it. The sex was great, and we both had a great time. As the sun started to rise, he told me that this would never happen again, and that we could never talk about it. We were to act as if the last 6 hours never happened. When he left, I felt a hollowness inside my heart that was (and is) one of the worst things I have ever felt. Our friendship was still strong, but I thought about it a lot. It CHANGED the way I felt and interacted with him. It CHANGED the way we were 100% open with one another. If I could go back in time, I would have made another decision.

By patrick on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 06:35 pm:

    i disagree as my personal experience is just the opposite. my wife and i have had experiences with the same and opposite sex, friends who were dear before and still are today.

    it just sounds like your friend had issues with his own sexuality more than anything else and made you to suffer for his repression.

    Your heartache seems due to the fact that he dictated the terms entirely and to act like something like that doesnt happen is hurtful.

    With another couple, whom we are close too, we still talk and giggle about the long weekend we got freaky. it wasn't a one night thing either. i happened several times and is a cherished event with all of us.

    Hell, my best man ended up being my first threesome and still is a close friend even though we live on opposite sides of the country.

    we are all mature and realistic about what happened. jealousy or shame never entered in the picture. we all took it for what it was and thats that.

By Pilate on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 06:48 pm:

    In my experience, it seems that no matter how mature and cool I try to be about such things, the other party often ends up having some kind of major problem. The "let's pretend this never happened" bit has been done to me, too (oddly enough in a situation not unlike the one Christopher related) and it does seem to change some (but not all) friendships. I hate that. I prefer to remain friends with everyone, including my fuckbuddies. I wish people weren't so weird about sex. It's just sex, after all. It's something pleasant to be shared, not a cause for a guilt trip.

By Christopher on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 07:00 pm:

    Well, I guess its all in the way we are wired, Patrick. In words, it's easy to say "I'm cosmopolitan, and modern, and mature. I can get it on with my friends and its all one big happy family"; like a bunch of cats sleeping together. In my particular world view, its not something that works out well. I ask you, is there more of an upside benefit, as opposed to a downside risk? For most people, I think it's the latter. Please don't think I'm knocking whatever works for other folks; it's merely my viewpoint.

By Dougie on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 07:07 pm:

    I wouldn't be able to do a 3some. If it was with another guy, and he was touching my girlfriend, I'd end up killing him, and if it was with another girl, well, I'd probably be too freaked out to do much of anything but sit there and stammer and drool in the corner (which I do anyways, but that's a story for another day.)

By patrick on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 07:18 pm:

    "I'm cosmopolitan, and modern, and mature. I can get it on with my friends and its all one big happy family"

    no christopher, thats not it. 90% of my friends would never work out at this kind of scenario.

    All im saying is, it IS possible, you CAN still be very close with the people you screw despite what everyone is saying.

    But you see, your example, pilate's similar experience and dougie's post...all exemplify my point.

    The fact that you agreed to go along with your "don't ask don't tell" friend to me is a red flag before the BVDs come off. That was irrational of you and totally messed up of your friend to even ask such a thing.

    I have friends like dougie too who say they'd "kill a man doing their girl" and of course it would never work. Its not big deal. None at all. I just think jealousy is an evil evil evil irrational emotion that never has any justification.

By eri on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 07:52 pm:

    "Its not big deal. None at all. I just think jealousy is an evil evil evil irrational emotion that never has any justification."

    Patrick, I think this is a big difference in how we think. It isn't about jealousy, but I would rip they eyes out of anyone who was even trying to get with my husband (trust me on this, it has happened). It is about the sanctity of marriage and the belief that with any kind of committed relationship (and any real relationship does have committment) there is also monogamy. It is about morality, stability, trust, commitment, beyond that which is solely intellectual, but also attached to the heart. It has nothing to do with jealousy. I would never be jealous of my husband looking at another woman, hell, I would look with him. I am committed to him, and will be with no one else. No threesomes, no other couples, no one else. He is the same with me.

    I know that your obvious reaction would blame it on shame based on teachings of the church, but that is not true in my case. I grew up in a home with no church and little morality in any form. When my husband and I married I was not a christian. Sometimes I question whether I truly am one now.

    Too many people it is a big deal, because it is a breach of their trust for each other to think it would be so easy for your loved one to be with someone else. It is very difficult to keep emotions out of it.

    Sex isn't something we share with everyone, that would be very dangerous, and since it is something shared only with people whom we have a strong emotional connection with, it is almost impossible to keep emotions out of it.

By semillama on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 10:17 pm:

    What is this "sex" you speak of?


By Christopher on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 10:31 pm:

    Once I establish a bond with someone, I kind of can't think of them sexually, unless it was apparent that it was there from the begining. When I was in high school, I hung out with a rather intellectually advanced group of Dead-Heads and artists. There was one family that had 3 daughters and 2 boys, all close enough in age that I hung out with all of them. They came from a very hippy free-love type of background, and were all very open minded about sexual freedom, etc. I was always amazed how sexual they were, with everyone. It was kind of cool, because if you were feeling bad about something, you could always find one of them to hang out with and they would flirt shamelessly. I was raised in a very catholic family, with 7 brothers and sisters, and had the whole sin thing drilled into me but good at an early age. I was precocious enough to realize that I was gay at a very young age, and dreaded becoming old enough that I would have to have my first communion, and I would be compelled to confess the dark truth about how I thought that some of my little friends daddies were hotties. Even though I lied my way through that period, and eventually left the church entirely when I was 16, I still had the catholic doctrine drilled into me. Once I was old enough to date, I was practically a serial monogamist. I definitely had my share of one (or two) night stands, but I was pretty tame compared to some of my contemporaries. Probably a good reason I didn't get the plague during the early 80's. I'm smart enough to know that theres is an unimaginably large spectrum of sexuality, and I say, to each their own. People always figure out what works for them; Sometimes they learn and change.

By J on Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 02:23 am:

    I hear you hon,and I did change.

By patrick on Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 11:59 am:

    "It isn't about jealousy, but I would rip they eyes out of anyone who was even trying to get with my husband (trust me on this, it has happened)."

    eri, this is exactly jealousy. its territorial, immature. Violence over such actions is just absurd and silly. It is jealousy whether you like it or not. Monkey's react like this. They take clubs and beat others infrigning on their territory. Try to be above that eh?

    Im all about the sanctity of marriage. I don't believe humans are monagamous by nature either.
    I consider myself moral, more moral than most god fearing people.

    The deal is this eri....mutual respect. There is was absolutely NO respect lost while screwing around WITH my wife. None whatsoever. No more respect lost than if we were playing a neighborhood softball game on opposite teams. Its just sex. Its just fun with people we know, love and are close too. We don't attach any more emotional tags to it than is required or necessary.

    For the record, intercourse is something we don't share with anyone.

    Someone hitting on my wife is not a threat to me. Someone hitting on me is not a threat to my wife. We are confident in each other, in that no one actions matter but our own. This is where people start getting silly. Like clawing the eyes out of some lady who is putting the moves on trace. Why do that? Why not trust your mate to do the right thing, and if he doesnt, claw HIS eyes out?

    I understand what you're saying christopher. its kind of weird, but the only people we've messed around with were close and it probably couldnt be any other way. We could never do the one-night stand kind of deal you know? Its an odd thing. And I confess its something that hasnt happened in years and probably won't happen again.

By eri on Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 12:20 pm:

    rip the eyes out was not an exact term, or action. I don't physically fight people, I fuck with their heads. I am not talking about someone hitting on my husband either. That happens regularly on both sides. I trust him, and he has never taken the wrong actions. It is when they can't take no for an answer and start fucking with our relationships and friendships with others that I get involved. When people twist the truth and lie to serve their purposes of trying to break up our marriage, that I get involved. It doesn't have anything to do with jealousy, but protecting my family, and standing up for my husband.

    The deal for me isn't mutual respect, because I don't respect anyone who messes around with anyone else when they are married, intercourse or not. It wouldn't matter if I were there or not. That wouldn't make a difference. Intimacy is something for two people to share and marriage is saying, only you for the rest of our lives. Anything outside of that is a moral question, whether both parties participate or not. For many people, it is not "only sex no big deal" because that kind of physical intimacy is a big deal. If it was no big thing then your friends wouldn't still be talking about it.

By patrick on Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 12:30 pm:

    "When people twist the truth and lie to serve their purposes of trying to break up our marriage, that I get involved"

    do you know people that do this? It sounds like something off Jerry Springer.

    See you have a strict definition of marriage. I feel marriage is an amorphous body that is custom made for each who take the vows. Marriage says whatever you want it to.

    Yes it was a big deal in the sense we had a great time, but not a big deal emotionally. There weren't any misguided emotions involved. They were realistic, realized its just a great time with close comfortable friends.

    TO be blunt, with the other couple....it was aboslutely no emotional threat what so ever to see my wife engaged with my good friend, and vice versa. Why? Because I know damn well that he is WITH his girl for good, and he knows that of my relationship. I am confident that my wife is not lured by any sort of thing like that. In otherwords, we are all safe from each other because we have so much faith and trush in each other. There's respect there beyond (it seems) most folks comprehension.

    Thats cool. Ultimately I could careless what other people do.

    To answer the question of sex and friendship, i think its entirely possible.

By eri on Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 01:45 pm:

    "do you know people that do this? It sounds like something off Jerry Springer"

    knew once would be the operative terms. A girl who went to our church, who was like 20 and just recently moved there, didn't know anyone, didn't have a car to get around in and spent all day watching television with her grandmother. I felt sorry for her and decided to try to be her friend and help her meet new people and get some time outside of her house. Big mistake. Bitch was walking Jerry Springer, with this cute little innocent face behind it. She helped us move once and was left alone with Spunky for about 20 minutes once. No big deal, right? Until she told everyone she was sleeping with him while we unloaded a truck full of stuff in the new place. She would wait until she knew I was at a church function (like a business meeting or something like that) and call Spunky and say things like "we should go to the movies" and he assumed the "we" incorporated all of us and said fine. Then she discovered that "we" wasn't just her and him and got pissed off and forged a letter from him saying he wants to be married to me but have him as his girlfriend on the side, blah, blah, blad. Then she showed it to her parents who went straight to the pastor of the church (who was obsessed with sex in general). He declared that spunky had a some mental sexual disease (supposedly the same thing Clinton had) and it was all my fault because I had so many miscarriages. Asked us to leave the church if spunky didn't go to him for therapy against his sexual disorder and his problems with faith. Of course, Spunky didn't do anything wrong. He simply misunderstood her intentions, but it was hell for a while. We told the pastor of the church to fuck off and stopped doing all of the volunteer work. After we left, about 30% of the church membership left with us.

    Either way, the whole situation was totally fucked up. It caused problems in the family (not spunky and I but our relatives). We lost the financial support we were getting in his adoption of our oldest daughter (she is from a previous marriage, but he has been her dad since she was a year old), my parents were fighting with my grandmother, a friend of mine from high school kept pressing spunky to admit he had an affair so that he could separate spunky and I and dump his girlfriend and marry me, my mother's twin started assuming that we were sexually open and kept trying to get us to go have a group thing with them (ewww, my mothers twin, how Jerry Springer is that), he ended up losing his job because of bullshit rumors, we lost the house we were buying while it was in escrow, and we were lucky we weren't evicted from the duplex we were staying in.

    there was one other instance where someone crossed the line trying to get into spunky's pants, but she was just a stupid drug dealer, so the next time she showed up I just called the cops, knowing that they had several warrants out for her arrest, and they hauled her away, no big deal.

    To answer the question of sex and friendship, although for some it might actually be possible, there is too much risk involved and isn't worth the chance of emotional connection.

By Spider on Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 01:50 pm:

    Great googly moogly!


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