Well, what do people think about abortion rights? Support/not support? Why? Let the hot fuck be served.

are you sure?

all of our rights, born and unborn, are in the hand of.....insert higher force or power perhaps asking a person to enter life is a larger crime i do think suicide should be considered a right i'm not really feeling as morbid as this sounds

Masturbation is murder.

Thank you TBone, you just gave me the image of some 14 year-old kid wacking off and then like hitting the just jizzed, jizz with a hammer... I agree with heather, suicide should be a right and under that same guise anything we do to our bodies shoud be a right just as long as it doesn't affect SOCIETY. Notice I capitalized SOCIETY, why because and unborn fetus is not a memeber of society just a potential member. And as TBone mentioned above "Masturbation is Murder," every tiny sperm, and egg that dies is another lost potential member of society. More importantly every egg a female has is a POTENTIAL memeber of society. We live in a world where sex is casual, no matter what religious bullshit someone tries to tell you about how one shouldn't have sex before marrige, well too fucking bad people it happens and no one will ever change that... Sorry. We also live in a world where morals are being placed in the shitter and given the good ole' flush. Why, because people are having children when they aren't ready, or possibly shouldn't. A lot of times that is because they aren't willing to have an abortion, BECAUSE ITS WRONG... Umm, whathefuck! Isn't it even more wrong to ruin this POTENTIAL person's life by fucking it up and being to young to raise them? Oh yes, and I do belive that some people should not be allowed to breed... AT ALL, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES... Although that will never be sanctioned because well, we wouldn't want to be nazi's would we. The goverment will never decide that some people are just to fucking stupid to keep themselves alive and therefore having offspring would be a bad idea. And that my friends is why we have the Darwin awards to note those people who discovered that they were part of that group and took action. I say we move to an era of Human nature for a while, let the human race kill off a good couple million of ourselves. And then we can start debating whether or not its alright for the UNBORN fetus of a mother can be prevented from growing to a ripened poping age. And umm, expand the Darwin Awards to an olymic event.

Well put. I should ask, actually, to all the pro-lifers out there--should women be saving the eggs they drop out each month? I mean, god, think of that, a baby in the toilet once every 28 days!!!! That's crazy! Women shouldn't have the right to menstrate under the prolife argument, and men shouldn't have the right to masturbate! Honestly, people. I like your point that a fetus is a potential member of society. Personally, I think people should whatever they damn well please, I don't really care. In fact, I don't really need to hear about it. I know a lot of women who would never conceive of getting an abortion themselves, but they support the right to choose, because they think it's silly to meddle in other people's business.

Hmmmmm The issues of overpopulation should be considered before conception, not after words. An egg or sperm is not a baby. An egg+sperm is. I am sure I learned that in the 7th grade. My baby was born 3 months premature and so was I. How dare anyone think a baby is not conscious until that magical moment they are born. I guarantee you most people are not that stupid, they delude themselves. I hated and still hate my mom. She hated me. She told me as she spit in my face while she was strangleing me when I was 6. I will never forget it. My child hood was horrible. I hated it. I would never wish child hood on anyone. It is a wretched thing. But, I could not be happier now. I love my wife, I love my daughters, and I love my career. I feel I am making a valuable contribution (as most normal parents do, I think), to the world by raising my daughters to be good, well adjusted adults. So, even though I hated the first 18 years of my life, the last 10 were, for the most part, (except for working at Taco Bell for $4.60 an hour as a Shift Manager, and living on my own and eating Taco Hell for breakfast, lunch and dinner because it was free) wonderful. Abortion is inexusable unless the life of the mother is in jepordy. You can always give the baby up for adoption. You do not have to raise it. I wish my sister in law would have done it than try to raise it herself (she can't even change a litter box, and is to damn lazy to take a shower). Over population and poverty is a huge problem. But killing our children is not the solution to those problems. In this country, you do not have the right to smoke where you want, say what you want, walk where you want, but goddamit, you have the right to kill your babies. WHAT THE FUCK?

Oh, as far as a solution to over population, how about euthanasia?

I support euthanasia also. I also support the regulations regarding smoking, but that's another matter. No one is killing anything. Putting a baby up for adoption does not solve a lot of problems. Bouncing from foster home to foster home can be devastating to a child, it happened to a lot of my friends. It's just not fair to bring a child into the world if it is going to live in misery. Mother Theresa couldn't have taken care of all the unwanted children in the world. For some young people, having a baby can destroy their lives. So you ruin two lives, not just one. Is that fair? Even if abortion was outlawed, women would still have them. It would be a risky and dangerous operation, and could kill both mother and child. It is safer to have it legalized than not. Just like the UN sent doctors to Africa to perform surgery on young girls, even though they disapproved of genital mutiliation. They knew that it would be safer than surgery with glass and sticks. From the beginning of the Reagen Presidency to the beginning of the Clinton presidency, America did not give to the UN population comittee. It was the first thing Reagen signed off, and the first thing Bill signed back in. Bush will probably revoke funding again. The population committee focusses on sexual education in impoverished countries, and the reason that funding was revoked was because Reagen needed Catholic support--and the UN population committee puts forth abortion as a viable option. That is so ridiculous, that this country would cut support to a vital institution just for the Catholic vote.

I'm not Catholic. Catholics are not the only ones against abortion, you know. I think the UN is a bunch of Bull Shit if you ask me. We already run around the world playing police and baby sitter as it is, why pay an organazation for that? I think abortion is murder. Period. Kill the mom, I say... ok, yes I realize that is extreme. But so is putting an innocent to death because of the the mother's ineptitude or societies general decay

You know Trace life is funny,when I got pregnant with Amee my mom offered to pay for an abortion and I thought about it,decided I couldn't do it and married someone I knew I didn't love.That had repercussions I can't type long enough to go into.You have 2 girls,so do I,I told them the facts of life,warned them of std's,have alway's been real open with them,I paid for an abortion for both of them,it broke my heart,but I did.

what about the father's ineptitude? don't you think if the father really cared that much about the fate of unborn children, he wouldn't impregnate a woman who wasn't wholly trustworthy, intelligent and loving, and wanted to raise children with the man? what about instead of outlawing abortion, just outlawing heterosexual intercourse outside children-focused marriages? like you said, trace, think about overpopulation (and other such issues) BEFORE conception.

All the stuff I spew about it being wrong, when I hear individual stories, I can see thier point of view as well. You sound like a great mom. Sorry to hear about your horrible marriage.

I mean, you've never been a woman worried she was pregnant, trace. it's bad enough to worry for a day or two every month that I may have to go get a safe and legal abortion. it would be truly frightening to have to worry about getting to europe or canada or wherever and having it done away from home. I'm very glad ru-486 finally got fda approval and found an american producer/distributor.

That, Trace, is why you need to watch those generalizations. Hal, good points. You were unusually lucid. :) Sorry I missed you when I was in town. I'll catch ya next time. I refuse to argue the abortion bit... If any of you catch me doing it, slap me around, will ya? A friend of mine once made a good point during a mock senate thingy... An abortion bill was on the floor and he moved that all the males in the room not vote on the issue. That was future president Miller. Remember that boy.

Generally I'm the non-confrontational sort, but today I'm feeling extremely spicy and edgy, so I'm going to argue this till I have to work, and if I'm still up for it tomorrow too. Trace- have you ever seen the "South Park Movie???" Yes, I know Tray Parker & Matt Stone are and have been off the deep end for a long time, BUT, and that is a big but. They make a very valid point in that movie with a character named "The Mole." He's like a 6 year-old kid who is constantly bitching about God and his mom. He's pissed at god for letting him live, and his mom for trying to abort him with a coat hanger when she was pregnant. OK... Number 1: That's fucked up, Trace don't go off about how horrible that is because well its a joke. But the fact of the matter is there are people who actually do those kinds of things, and its because of people ( and not I'm not going to say "Like you") but its because of people who are violently opposed to abortion, and give static to people who go to clinics that those people have to go to those measures. Think of it this way, ok say your right, and all of a sudden the government agrees, and they outlaw abortion. WHOOPTY-FRIGGIN-DOO, they have just killed a whole lot of people. How you might ask, well first they put abortions into back ally clinics, make them and extremely dangerous thing that no matter how you feel on the issue, these people don't and they will get their damn abortion. 2: I'm not going to advocate prostitution, but what about that huh? Think of all those whores who are getting fucked daily end up pregnant? I know its an illegal practice, and well fuck, its what these people do for a living. Not the smartest choice but hey, that's their life. Are you going to walk up to them on the street and tell them their wrong? 3: What about rape? If abortion was made illegal and some rape victim got pregnant, well shucks Batman I guess she'll have to carry it full term, fuck up her life even more, and then break her heart when she sees this crying little baby, that she doesn't even want and gives away. 4: ADOPTION you say... Dear, again lets think about the overpopulation issue before we speak. Think how many kids are in orphanages right now, or foster homes. That life sucks, ALOT. My girlfriend and I have discussed the issue YES we use birth control. Pill and condoms, but we also have discussed, the "WHAT IF" scenario. And you know what conclusion we came to... Abortion.... That was both of us, I do believe that it should be a decision of both people, but the female does have the ultimate decision. The way I look at it, I'm glad my girlfriend wanted to know my opinion, but if she got pregnant, all I had or have to do with it until there would be a baby was to fuck her... She has to carry it, and care for it. NO!!! That is not my choice to make or the choice of any male on the planet earth. I give you and your spouse the choice to choose, and that is your god given right. Give my girlfriend and I the same respect eh'?

Trace, if your wife was raped and ended up pregnant would you raise that child? Would you want that child living in your wifes body - growing off the nutrients your wife eats from the food you put on the table? Could you live with that?

Even after you found and killed the SOB who did it... And if he was caught what would you want done to him...

I actually heard a man argue on tv that women who were REALLY raped don't get pregnant, because they have to have "some juices flowing" and enjoy it wouldn't have worked. He claimed to have medical evidence, then never mentioned it again. Maybe if he had been aborted... Anyhow. Yeah. Slap me.

1) humans are not biological parasites. if you can pull the baby from the mother and it can live, it's a human. otherwise, a parasite. --------------------------------- 2) a fetus of a chicken and a fetus of a human are functionally the same at some point. is it immoral to eat chickens? --------------------------------- 3) according to jewish myth (from which christian myth doth come) a child isn't a child until... when? some time after birth. --------------------------------- 4) poking at christians with the "thou shalt not kill" executions/abortion pointy stick is stupid. the real translation is "thou shalt not murder". killing is ok, when justified. --------------------------------- 5) i am pro-life, pro-choice. i am repulsed by the idea of abortion, but i am also repulsed by the idea of someone sticking a cock in man ass. i'm not going to tell anyone that they can't do it on their own time, though. --------------------------------------- 6) if my (hypothetical) daughter came to me and told me she wanted and abortion, i would do everything i could to convince her that adoption is a better route. but if i couldn't talk her out of it, i would pay for it. ... we probably wouldn't tell her mother, though.

i'm pro-abortion. "pro-choice," yeah...although that always struck me as a weak way of saying it. basically, i'm pro-abortion. pro-death. i recently appeared on film w/ a fake fetus wired to a coat hanger. i beat the crap out of it, slamming it against a wall over & over again, w/ fake blood splattering everywhere. i dropped the fetus in a pan full of the fake blood & drank the bloody mess in close-up. had it been a real fetus & real blood, i don't know if i'd have approached the performance any differently. i see it this way: getting knocked up strikes me as disastrous. i'm damn near too old to get knocked up, but still, the idea leaves me just as cold as it did when i was 14. nobody should have to endure an ordeal like pregnancy. nobody. nobody should have to be saddled w/ another lifeform clinging on like some sort of parasite for 18+ years. far too many people just crap out kids willy-nilly w/o any thought at all. i wouldn't wish childhood on a fucking enemy. not every sperm deserves a name. all it takes is one night at wal-mart watching shrieking, bovine "mothers" slapping their children around to tell you what a fucking joy parenthood must be. there are over 6 billion people on a planet that oughtn't be supporting such a strain. that's just the way i feel about it. don't rip me to shreds. it's just an opinion. what the hell. it's not like it matters.

"Sticking a cock in a man ass" hehehe, reminds me of a new book. Introduction To Anal Sex Author, Ben Dover Illustrated by, C. Howwet-Fields

i dunno, crimson. living is good/sucks with/without kids. i saw foetus smack around a bunch of pig heads with a baseball bat a long time ago, when i was a different person. i really liked the music, which is why i went ("nail" was probably my favorite album at the time), but i wasn't at all blown away by the "performance". i thought it was tacky and overdone. of course, that's the point. i also don't like b-movie schlock for the same reason. it's too easy to be extreme once you cross a certain line. your film would probably have the same effect on me. it's too easy, too formulaic to do anything but disappoint me. but that's just me and not meant as an attack or anything.

it was just a brief scene. actually, the fetus scene was also inserted into some other short pieces. ironically, we've also done stuff w/ pigheads, including an entire short film starring a severed pig's head. in one scene, a friend of mine fingerfucked the pig's hollow eyesockets & it made this hideous squeaking noise. i laughed my ass off. it's not for everyone. it's just kinda funny, that's all. it's not like it's deadly serious social commentary or anything. my friend, pug, does these films, along w/ another guy. i just show up in them from time to time. as for the whole abortion thing, i guess what i'm actually trying to say, in my usual roundabout way, is that i'm for strongly for abortion rights...regardless of the reason for seeking said abortion & regardless of the age of the recipient. i feel that a 13-year-old should have the same rights to a speedy & unquestioned abortion as a 30-year-old. no questions asked. ever.

yeah. dead things are dead. i like pigs. andouille, chorizo, breakfast links: all good. it wouldn't give me any pleasure to mutilate a dead thing's carcass just for kicks. chewing and swallowing it is somehow different than getting some kind of naughty joy out of fingering an eyesocket. i'm not sure why. i can say that if, in some unthinkable reality, my daughter died and pug somehow got a hold of her skull and did that to it and then i got a hold of him, he'd be hamburger. i can't logically explain why i don't feel that way about the pig. not that i don't have any feelings about the pig, just not so much as i do about my daughter. and now, i want to stop thinking about it. i fully agree about no questions asked.

oh, i got pig and pug confused. still. . .

Oh, and just for a note, prostituion is legal in some areas and closely regulated. But I assume you knew that and were talking about back alley action. When I was raped, I had the day after pill. If that right had been denied to me, I would have made an herbal tea with the same effect, or crossed over the border into mexico and gotten an abortion there. I refuse to even entertain the thought of bearing a rapist's child, and no woman should have to face that. What I didn't know at the time was that I probably wouldn't have gotten pregnant, but that's another story. Anyway. It makes me really sad that we people can't leave each other be. If everyone had the same attitude Nate did, the world would be a better place.

we haven't done anything w/ human parts, at least not on this show. i've done things w/ human parts, but not on film. i've held a lot of body parts, but not really done anything overly bizarre w/ them. i've kissed a skull on the mouth, but whoopee. that couldn't possibly be alarming, unless it decided to kiss back. i thought it'd be kind of cool if, when i croak, somebody could wear some of my bones as jewelry. or make a flute out of my femur. something interesting. the fingerfucking of the piggie's eyesockets wasn't as much a naughty thrill as just kind of amusing, mainly due to the banjo bluegrass music blasting in the background & the manically grinning guy in the giant smiley-face t shirt doing the fingerfucking. the soundtracking is what made that scene. it's hard to explain. bluegrass makes everything just a little bit funnier than it actually is. i know this. i toured as a bluegrass musician for years & it's a funny-ass job. the only animal footage we've ever used that actually bothered me was footage of a wounded animal (it died soon after filming). i wasn't there & i didn't take the shot. it bugged me, it did. the animal's face was crushed. i won't go into the whole thing. it was a fucking ugly scene. i mean, enough to make me have reservations about it & i'm pretty fucking hard to freak out. as far as people parts, hey, at least i'm not a necrophile. i've known 3 necrophiles. one was not only a necrophile, but a pedophile as well. he liked to hump the corpses of little girls. he figured that age didn't matter, as long as the "partner" in question was deceased. i can only imagine what the family of the dearly departed might do to him if he should ever get caught at it.

People suck.... Sick people, really fucking suck.... I'm glad so many people payed attention, well boys and girls its off to work, but I will return tomorrow morning bright and early to check on ya'll. Keep up the good work.

well, a banjo can make everything all right.

you people (except for trace) are sick and your arguments FOR abortion rights are so flawed, im not going to argue whats right and whats wrong but abortion is wrong, no wait fuck it im gonna argue. Abortion is wrong if your raped, its not the childs fault, give the child up for adoption. There are children in orphanages only because children were taken away from their parent/s The waiting lists for adopting a newborn child is very long, a good friend of mine just drove 1000 miles to texas to adopt a child after he had been on a waiting list for 3 years. This new RU-murdering pill is the sickest thing i've ever heard of. Ok you say if we make abortion illegal people will get illegal unsafe abortions. Lets compare this to drugs or anything else that is illegal for that matter, hey lets legalize crack and every other drug so that way people wont be breaking the law when they use drugs and they can be sure that there crack is the finest crack available, the bottom line is laws will be broken and the legalization of something that is wrong just to protect someone who might break the law is a flawed argument in its self. Have any of you people ever been to an abortion clinic, I know people who have had abortions and it fucked their life up bad, One of my very good friends that had an abortion says that a day does not go by that she doesn't wonder what the child that she aborted would have been like. Thats all for now, I could argue this point to no end but let me stop now before I get pissed.

If a 13 girl is having an abortion, someone should be asking questions like "Was it consensual sex?" and "Do you know about birth control" and "Is your Daddy coming into your room at night when you're sleeping". Failure to ask these questions, in a gentle and non-threatening way, is tantamount to child abuse.

2) a fetus of a chicken and a fetus of a human are functionally the same at some point. is it immoral to eat chickens? What the hell does that mean? and at what point would that be? 3) according to jewish myth (from which christian myth doth come) a child isn't a child until... when? some time after birth. (I'd like to see that MYTH also look up myth in the dictionary) 4) poking at christians with the "thou shalt not kill" executions/abortion pointy stick is stupid. the real translation is "thou shalt not murder". killing is ok, when justified. ( And I guess someone being irresposnible and getting knocked up means that killing is justified so if my little sister gets knocked up I'll just kill her or the guy that done it or both, since they were the ones responsible not the child) we probably wouldn't tell her mother, though. If you wouldn't tell your mamma its prpbably not right.

sure, but if the 13 yr old was freaked out about the question and didn't answer, the procedure should still be performed. bad situation, good solution. madashell, don't have one.

sure, but if the 13 yr old was pregnant abortion is wrong PERIOD. PERIOD PERIOD

A very very close friend of mine impregnated a girl when we were in High School, her mother took her to get an abortion without him knowing, he is about 1 step away from a mental institution still to this day and this happened about 6 years ago. If I got a girl pregnant and she had an abortion (and it would be without me knowing) I would kill the bitch.....

Before you try to jump me, I belive that abortion is murder, murders should get the death penalty.

bully for you

bad parents should get the death penalty

madashell, you're too fucking stupid to talk to. i hope you're baiting us, y'know, just for kicks. if not, i take it back: have abortions. please. please?

People who contemplate killing others should get the death penalty.

People who eat fetuses for a lifing should get the death penalty.

People who stick their dicks in garbage cans with the sincere hope of killing the president of the United States should get the death penalty. Especially women.

People who misspell "lifing" should get the death penalty.

Fuck.

people who say "death penalty" 4 times in 3 minutes should get the death penalty.

Stupid? Yeah Im real fucking stupid, I have 3 college degrees and one which happens to be in philosophy (Which a major part deals with logical thinking) and I have a little analogy that reminds me of some of your arguments for abortion. Your arguments are to logic, as the roadrunner is to physics. you know, it kinda makes you think but when you think about it its really silly and actually makes no sense

yeah, right back at ya. life is uncomfortable. things that bother you, others can accept. people in india eat live monkey brains. people in the south fuck chickens. these things make my butt pucker but i'm not going to crusade against them: it's a cultural thing. haven't you learned anything from the civil rights movement?

Antigone,don't make me break my foot up your ass,why is everyone being so mean to Trace?You guys always are so mean.What about free speach?Maybe Lucy was right,do we all have to agree to fit in?

im from the south an i can assure you people down here dont fuck chickens as much as you fucking yankees do.

J, I would love it if you broke your foot up my ass, so you'll have to select another punishment. And I'm not being mean to Trace at the moment. I'm being mean to Madashell, who is, as far as I can determine, not Trace. (Yes, I checked, and for that I am wicked. Wicked I say!) We don't all have to agree to fit in. I'm not saying people shouldn't speak. I'm just giving people shit for things that piss me off. And I haven't gotten laid in five months. And I get pissed when people give bullshit reasons for their views. That's my speech, and it's free, and you get what you pay for. So there.

Hey, madashell: A friend of mine was shot and killed. I think shooting people should be outlawed. What do you think?

Back it up!!!! Do you have some statistics? I know I didn't spell that right,but I also know what I mean

So, madashell, what were your other two degrees in? Just curious.... Back what up, J?

We need some facts about that chicken fucking,come on Antigone,you know you want to know.I think you might be as twisted(but good,as me).

I outta here for tonight it was fun arguing with you guys, I don't hate you guys just for what you belive I just suggest you researh abortion on a person to person level as I have and not what your intuituion tells you, I have written a few college papers on abortion and usually get pissed every time I talk about it, so I vowed to leave the subject alone until I read this message board and I just had to comment, sometimes I go a little over board when I get pissed and I hope I offended some people. But, you know what they say: opinions are like assholes, everybodys got one and they stink. Later................................ Oh yeah people in the south don't fuck chickens, i belive goats are the livestock of choice.

Software Engineering and Math

Antigone,I don't have ypor e-mail,will you send it to me?

Oh, I can give you facts. I've written several graduate papers on chicken fucking and my PhD thesis was titled "Giving Oral Pleasure to Various Water Fowl, Specifically Anas Platyrhynchos Platyrhynchos"

chicken fucking and monkey brain eating. he's got a doctorate in that.

oh, and as for me: pro-life (me) pro-choice (the rest of the world).

Oh my hell!!

Well then, madashell, you might appreciate the statistics behind this article. (Apologies who have seen it from the "Gore" thread.)

That was to Antigone.

But I still love him.Yes I do

Oh, you're so sweet, J...

Actually, I would like to point out that approximately 37% of rural midwesterners have, uh, done the nasty with animals before the age of 16. Madamashell, eat hot fuck.

(s)he's from the south? how ironic!

my personal favorite is corvus brachyrhyncos. CAAAA!

Well as Isold said to begin with; "Let hot fuck be served." Madashell... I'm going to have to agree with dave on this subject of converstaion. You are fucking stupid. OOOOH big man has 3 degree's whoopty-fucking-doo, you know something, it doesn't take a SMART person to pass a class, any one who puts their mind to it can do it. Your fucking stupid and thats all there is too it, you have degree's cool, good for you, it doesn't make you any fucking wiser. As for all of your arguments, they are all based upon opinion. Granted not all of mine are fact based, yet some are. OH, and another thing, lets not go into drugs, that can be another string. There is a big difference between making drugs legal and abortion. Yeah sure, lets make drugs legal, and make them easy to get ahold of... Which means goverment sanctions, as well as taxing, and laws aginst usage in public places. YES laws will be broken, but in the same right who knows what the fuck would happen???? Abortion is already legal, women who make the choice to have an abortion do so under their own terms. I want to point out that they are able to make that chioce if it is one THEY WANT. If it isn't one, then they don't get the abortion, simple as that eh'. And well if you are right, and all the christians in the world are right, then well fuck I suppose my condo in hell just got upgraded. Anyway, when a women makes that choice, at least now she has a safe, steril enviroment, with trained professionals. Unlike however getting a coat hanger rammed up her cooch, after she downs a bottle and a half of Jack Danials. You are an educated man, but you are ignorant. I do not hate you. Also, I do not hate you either Trace. I feel like playing the devils advocate lately. I do agree with what I am saying, but I could also argue the Pro-Life side till the dead baby fetus's come home... I'M MALE, I HAVE NO SAY. I CAN'T BEAR CHILDREN. Oh and Nate, love the chicken thing. Makes sense.

Lemmings [gotta go,theres a chicken winking at me]

it is my right to avoid any situation in which i might consider killing something if i was a doctor i would not perform abortions, neither would i try to stop someone from having them in my experience it is not very difficult to keep from getting pregnant in any environment where you would also have access to an abortion it is sad that people are so unintelligent, unethical and immoral that dictating other people's choices is even an issue

i love them alcohol.

hal you are officially a FUCKING idiot, notice I capitalized FUCKING. Have you not learned from the Simpsons that however minute the happening it will effect the course of history? whether born or unborn the fetus has effected everything including SOCIETY. goddamnit (it's one word i tell you!). i'm pro-choice, but damn man. think of a better argument than that.

From what I've heard, Antigone really knows how to pull the chicks.

Of course, it depends on what kind of chicks you mean...

I've never "pulled" a chick, Cat, but I can give them excellent rim jobs. You don't mean women, do you?

It's you we're talking about Pantiephone...of course I don't mean real unfeathered permanently-inflated women. Do you even have those in Texas?

No, but I hear there are a few in that island ya'll foolishly call a continent...

Thank you Bell_Jar... I was waiting for someone to give me a good kick to the nuts. Most of the arguments I have given on this string are canned. I use to be in debate back in highschool, this was the no-no subject but we all had evidence and arguments for it. I personally live by the edict "Live and Let Live." If someone wants to get an abortion, none of my FUCKING business, unless its my child. In the event of that happening, well I'll deal with that then. Bell_Jar, I would like to thank you, no one yet has told me to shut up, not even the pro-choicers. I'm neither pro-life or choice, I'm male, I can't bear children and therefore I can never have an abortion. All I was doing on this string was playing the devils advocate (And by the Catholic stand point I'm pretty damn close to the man himself by now.) I was stirring the pot of "Hot fuck," preparing for the feast. And to tell the truth I enjoyed it. Again, thank you Bell-Jar, for once again you have raised yourself in my eyes. ( p.s. your running a good tally, GOOD MARKS: 17 BAD MARKS: 2 )

nice try

Nice try what... Read above... I already stated that- "I feel like playing the devils advocate lately. I do agree with what I am saying, but I could also argue the Pro-Life side till the dead baby fetus's come home... " But then again no one pays attention any more, do they?

I find the issue confusing. Abortion is wrong. Dead wrong. I would be hard pressed to find a situation were i would agree with it, but in one instance i would. The comment about my wife getting raped. First off, I would consider killing the fucker that did it. But then, I would decide he should go to prison so he could fucked in the ass until he died. Unless he enjoyed it, then i would cut the fuckers balls of and feed it to them. As far as the baby? We would get an abortion. And here is why: My wife almost died giving birth to our youngest, born 3 months early and weighing in at 1 lb 12 oz. Doctor told us: I never want to see you here again. Hence, I can no longer produce children. My wife stil can (she has the problems with her body that almost kill her and the baby, but we have me sterilzed....) So, in the interest of my wife, and my other daughters, yes. I would feel we would have no choice. Dont start spouting off that if abortions were illegal we would be condeming my wife to death. I would suggest that there be a law protecting doctors that would allow them to take what ever messures are necessary to save the patient's life, with the concent of the patient or legal gardian.

So what you're saying is that abortions should be illegal except in some cases? That's ridiculous. That's like saying: "well, the death penalty should be illegal, but if the guy has a child, it should be remitted." Bullshit. Pure, anadulterated bullshit. That's a really stupid argument.

I mean, who's to determine who gets them and who doesn't? Women would just be bribing their doctors to get abortions, and then the whole point of making it illegal would just FALL THROUGH.

It is murder. You can't change my mind on that. If the mother's life is in jepordy, then it should be ok. that is not stupid. By the way, the comment about it being harder to get pregnant when you are raped is true. Your body freezes up, and the egg does not accept the fertelization, as well as the stress levels increase the chances of a spontaneous abortion if she does get pregnant. And no, if youhave a child and are convicted of murder, all the more reason to FRY YOUR ASS!

What Trace is saying is, "Abortion should be illegal, but is permitted when it could benefit me or my family."

What am saying is that If you are too lazy or incompetent to take care of a baby, maybe you should give it up for adoption and have yourself steralized. Why murder an innocent because you are a piece of shit?

What if one of your daughters was pregnant Trace and test's showed she was carring a fetus with a severe birth defect,it would be profoundly retarded and deformed and wouldn't live long anyway,would you think it would be alright to have an abortion?

OK J, Yes. I am not God. It is not my place to dictate wether the baby shouldlive or die. Besides, how many abortions performed are because of rape, birth defects, fetal defects, etc? What do you think the percentage rate is?

jesus isolde......why didnt you just title this thread "Gang up on Trace", you knew he would be the only one on that silly side of the fence, with the exception of a transient or regular posting as some idiotic transient...... its like this.... the crux of this matter is when you believe life begins. SOME believe life begins at conception, SOME believe it begins at birth.....OTHERS believe it begins somewhere in between. EITHERWAY...its a spiritual/cultural/moral dilemma that each must decide for himself. I think we could all probably agree on this....... SO....with this in mind.... spirituality/culture/morality should NOT be legistlated. There is a damn good reason there is a specific clause that seperates church and state.You cannot legislate morality. For this reason I think the state need get out of the business of "rehabilitation" for drug offenders...and that leads to my opinion of legalization....and so on.....eh er ....ah so...Do not make laws based on YOUR faith...because it may not be mine. Fuck you for thinking you have some supreme right to tell a woman OR man what to do with their bodies. As long as a baby is physically dependent on the mother, the mother alone, internally (i.e. prior to birth, forced or not) the mother and father have excluswive right to decide what to do. Fuck you for thinking you some sort of christian crusader on a mission to save a life. Fuck you and your crusade. Thank you for ru-486 for making abortions less visable to crackpot religious nutcases who harrass, taunt and even kill doctors and patients. Fuck you for thinking that the death penalty somehow makes up for a crime committed. Fuck you and your false sense of justice....emotional legislation. The only concern regarding the death penalty is if it indeed is a deterrent.....which it has been proven time and time again, it is not. After that, its a dead issue, pun intended. Fuck you for thinking you have the right to tell someone when they can die......someone wants to take their life, who the fuck is the state to say they can't? Doctor assisted suicide should be readily available....where i might have a problem with this is when some asshole decides to jump off a freeway overpass, ties up traffic and makes life difficult for those of us who choose to live. alrighty...i think that covers it. J, I dont think antingone is ganging up on trace.....isodle started this thread, you knew trace would be the monkey in the cage......it could be anyone....you know us other monkeys love to poke the guy in the cage. ive been the guy in the cage.....dont let your heart bleed too much for him

Actually, I didn't mean for this thread to be gang up on Trace. He happens to be the only one defending abortion. I was curious to see what would happen when we threw the same arguments that have been used for years back and forth at each other. It's time to liven things up a little. I don't think that anyone is allowed to dictate someone else's morals. I like the separation of church and state. I think people should mind their own damn business, and I certainly don't intend to force my views on anyone. I don't really give a flying fuck what people do, but I don't think anyone has the right to impede someone from doing something different than what they do. I don't really believe in eye for an eye, or even baby for a baby. Much like everyone else here, I'm sure, I don't really like bigots all that much, either.

Abortion is a weird issue. I've been pro choice since I was young. However, I've got a kid now. The kid, by all rights, should've been aborted (trailer trash jailbird parents from hell, 10 siblings and other assorted kids eating out of dumpsters, physical and sexual abuse, virtually no educational opportunities and so on). Brendan's "parents" had no fucking right to breed. The hell of it is, I've got a kid now who I love very much. There's no one like him. He means the world to me. So I find myself feeling somehow hypocritical when I look at Brendan and feel such a sense of relief that he made it and he's mine. On the other hand, had he been aborted, I'd probably still be childless, happy and none the wiser. For every success story like Brendan I'll bet that there's about a million random spawn who'll go nowhere, succeed in nothing and live a life of sheer hell due to their parents' witless breeding habits. I'm still pro-choice. And so is Brendan.

Hmmmm Well then... Seperation of church and state... I agree with that, but how about the ten commandments? We are told not to steal, or murder in the ten commandments. Couldn't someone, there are enough idiots out here, I am sure none of you of course, take this up as a conflict? As far as abortion goes, Patrick is right to a point. The whole thing hinges on when life begins. If it does not begin when the baby is in the womb, or before the baby is devolped past a certain point, then abortion is not, technically, murder. Therefor, no, there is no argument here, because the only lives affected are the mother and father, any any "potential" siblings. We cannot start saying "Well that baby could be the president some day, or the person who finds the cure for aids or cancer, or what the fuck else. But, if it is ever found that life does begin at conception, then abortion is murder. Problem: I doubt it will ever be proven one way or another. So, legally I feel it should not be illegal for abortion. However. I am apposed to it. I will not be bombing any abortion clinics or planned parenthood or picketing it or any of that bullshit. I do, however, support father's rights. If the father wants the baby, then he has a right to have the baby. It is not our fault we are male and cannot carry the baby. If we could, I would be pregnant right now, because our baby is now a toddler and I want a boy so bad I cant see straight.

I can't believe that bs argument on the enjoyment/rape/pregnancy risk thing. I have frioends who've been raped, who've gone through very violent rape and have had to have an abortion because of it. Please tell me that she should have carried it to full term, please especially if you are man. I believe it was Thomas Aquinas who stated that life begins at birth, Rhiannon probably knows this. I also would be very interested to know how many pro-lifers have adopted kids. For those here who are, how many have you adopted? Abortion is a very serious issue. It's in many cases a medical procedure. How many people really would use a medical procedure for birth control? Here's one for you logic types: 1.Assume all types of child/offspring death are wrong. Then assume that you have a personal responsibility to minimize the number of such deaths. 2. Now, assume that you are an American. As an American, you help to consume 3/5's of the resources used on this planet, which is highly disproportionate to the resources used by an average population of a third world nation. 3. Assume the consumption of these resources is essentially mandated by American corporations with assistance from the Government. 4. Asssume that the result of the above is increased child/infant mortality in other parts of the globe because of lack of control over, or simply the lack of, resources, which is due to 3. 5. Given the above, is it then your responsibility to live in a manner that utilizes the least resources possible and to encourage change in the mandate of 3., in an effort to minimize infant mortality?

trace....the ten commandments and any similarities to our current laws is pure coincidence...im not denying the influence of christianity in our gov't, but if you start up with the "Penny-In god we trust" crap you need to be slapped. And by even making that assumption, you assume moses was the first to ever spawn he concepts mentioned. Thats your spiritual choice, not mine. The "when life begins" debate is not meant to be proven....ever. Thats why its a moral/spiritual thing. You will never be able to prove to me god exhists....but im not about to legislate that you cant worship him/her.

I am doubting existence as well. More and more all the time. I am begining to think religion is for the weak or desperate

I'm thinking of an R.E.M. song about now,guess which one?

Personal Jesus????? Just kidding

Trace: " I doubt it will ever be proven one way or another. So, legally I feel it should not be illegal for abortion. " Wow, you're pro-choice! Also... There are several rationalizations, purely secular, for why murder and theft are bad for society as a whole. You don't need to dip into the god bucket to find them. The rape/resistence to pregnancy thing may well be true, but I doubt there will ever be scientific proof of it unless a nazi like government comes to power in a scientifically advanced nation. Father's rights are definately an issue, as you can attest. There's an excellent Salon article about it here. My opinion (without having had an experience like yours) is that it a balance will never be found on the issue as long as either side is scared shitless by the opposing view. You can't expect reasonable, thoughtful behavior from anyone when you're screaming "ABORTION IS MURDER" in their face. Pilate: I don't think it's hypocritical for you to be pro-choice. Try this perspective: You've developed a bond with Brendan and he is irreplaceable. That's as it should be! But you might have found someone else to adopt if he had not been born or if you'd never discovered him. What if you hadn't found out about him? What if you hadn't lived where you do now? What if you hadn't been ready to adopt when you met him? So many what if's, with abortion being only one of them. J: Why don't you people gang up on me more often? Me, me, ME! Gang up on ME! ME! :-P

Patrick: Our laws are certainly based on christianity! It's ain't no coincidence! But the dirty little secret that the religious right doesn't want you to know is that many of the founding fathers were unitarian...

"You cannot legislate morality. For this reason I think the state need get out of the business of "rehabilitation" for drug offenders..." argh... what? i don't recall who wrote this, but i'm uncertain of what you mean. i don't think it's because it is immoral to do drugs that there is rehabilitation. if you twist it as such then all laws are relative to the lawmaker's morality...

However, the durgs does bring up an interesting point. Pro-Choice is Pro-Choice, right? If it your body, why can't you take drugs? Who the hell are we to make drugs illegal?

"that's me in the spotlight, losing my religion." Right J?

Trace, are you just parroting these liberal viewpoints or do you actually believe them? Drugs should be legalized? I mean, what's the point of making drugs illegal? Criminals will still get ahold of them... (replace "drucs" with "guns" and you'll get a typical NRA argument.)

Ya know, Trace, I was going to give you shit for misspelling "durgs" but then I noticed I spelled it "drucs" and I shut the fuck up...

that would be me bell jar, and i sorta got off track at that point, i even realized that and got back to the subject....excuse me. i dont think the state needs to be in the business of rehabilitation. And drugs, for some, could be a moral issue, for others its not. eitherway...the state should be in the business of making and enforcing laws, laws that are not based on what they think is right for an individual to do to himself. Especially when what that individual does has no repercussions on anyone other than himself. exactlty trace, who are we selectvely demomize certain drugs and not others? why does the state care if i smoke pot and not care if i put down a 5th of vodka. at this point, the state makes so much money from drug offenders, they will never banish the laws. you seem particularly irritable these days bell jar....

I, beleive it or not, do beleive drug ussage should be legal. As with abortion, I do not agree with them, but I do not think they should be illegal. Period. Employers should still be able to have drug screening (most employers would fire you for coming to work drunk, but send you to counsleing if you ask them for help to stop drinking) but the federal government should treat drugs just like alcohol. You can take it, but don't drive under the influence or be on it in public (like the public drunkeness laws).

i before e thought before argument i am bein such a shit lately

All I'm going to say concerning abortion is, if you're against it, fine....but eliminate Child Abuse first....THEN we'll talk abortion. Unfortunately, a lot of people who are so gung ho about the sanctity of the unborn child seem to be of the opinion that once they're born you can do whateverthehell you want to them. I think it's sort of fucked to be debating concern for people who AREN'T EVEN HERE yet when we live in a world where people who ARE ALREADY here fall through the cracks on a daily basis.

Here here, Pug. Nicely put.

Hey, I think abusive parents should have someone that is 10 times bigger then them beat the living shit out of them, daily. they maybe they would know what it felt like

Yes MStipe:) Look at Robert Downing Jr.,what good is it going to do to put him in prison or jail,he needs help.They let junkies get methadone,I don't get it.

actually under california law, that recently passed, he wont go to jail, but rehabilitation. i think they should let him be, let him drug himself to death, let his friends and family get him some help. i dont like paying for his rehabilitation.

is ru-486 the drug you can take to give yourself a lil' mini-abortion away from medical facilities where someone can care for you in the event something goes wrong? Is that the drug where anyone can walk into a drugstore and pick it up without any need for counseling or preperation for what they're about to do to themselves? do you need a prescription for this drug? either way, it doesn't change my opinion of it. I so hate that drug. I think it's one of the worst ideas ever, and a horrible extreme to the "pro-choice" point of view. unless I've been misinformed, in which case please correct me.

Hey Gee! I am not sure what they are doing here in the states yet, I have not heard much. However, I thought it was by prescription only???

To use RU-486 You need the supervision of a doctor who is qualified to perform surgery if anything goes wrong. It takes three doctor visits, two to administer the drug and one follow up, I think.

This came up on a quick search. If you want ammo against the drug, you can go here

Yeah, you can't get the thing over the counter, you're supervised. It's been used in Europe with fair success, I hear. I still prefer pennyroyal tea. But whatever.

thanks for the corrections. as long as there's a qualified professional around to help you if you need it, I don't find it so hateful.

you've been misinformed gee. its been used in europe for years, and been researched by the FDA far more longer than most other drugs due to the politicized subject. the FDA made damn sure they tested it well. its safe. put it this way, they passed viagra through the FDA far more quickly than this pill....get my drift? also, when I worked at Glaxo-Wellcome, i got to see first hand the vast and expansive work that goes into submitting a drug to the FDA. All i did was file books and binders 6" thick...filled with research data required to get a drug approved. the drug is safe. all summer long, for one drug...Imitrex....case and study data...all summer, filing....binders, big, heavy fuck me binders. what you should be aware of is that abortion is never going to be a pretty and painless procedure....most definitely emotionally painful. But what this pill does, is it could virtually eliminate the abortion clinic...it could allow a woman to have an abortion by simply going to her gynecologist, or someone with in his or her office. ultimately it takes the playing field away from protesters and will also allow doctors to practice abortions with a little more security. no over the counter script fills, and like antigone says you are supervised through out the process.

That last RU-486 site kind of irks me. Even though they don't out and say it, you'd think from the name that it would be an impartial information site. Instead it's slanted heavily towards the pro-life viewpoint. Bah!

pardon my tardiness

You worked for Glaxo-Wellcome? They make my inhaler. Funny. I saw my inhaler advertised on TV at geek boy's house the other day, it was kind of wierd.

pardon my tardiness

Flonaze? Yes both my parents work there...and as a benefit to employees and their dependants, if you are in high school or college you can intern there. I did for two summers. Once in the cardiovascular research dept and the next in the engineering dept.

You know, for one day, I would like to observe in the departments that come up with names for prescription medicines. "Flonaze"? Somebody's little joke made it through. I sort of prefer the old patent medicine names, like Bohannon's Female Regulator, Hiller's Mammarial Balm, and Rice's Infallible Worm Destroying Drops. I swear I did not make up any of those names.

Flovent, yeah.

hey, madashell -- great idea about legalizing drugs. let's try it.

gee, you're probably thinking of the so-called morning-after pill (which is actually effective up to 72 hours after conception). it's available in most washington state drugstores without a prescription (I'm not sure about other states). I think it's basically a high dosage of birth control pill-type hormones.

Sem, for a second I thought that was "Hitler's Mammarial Balm."

The world is moraly and ethically fucked up. No I'm not saying all of you, or any other individual on the planet. I'm saying the world as a whole. First, religion is crap, PRO-LIFE-PRO-LIFE-PRO-LIFE, my fucking ass... More people have died in wars over religion than any other fucking cause. So if any pro-catholic-anti-abortion-freaks, want to say a god-damned thing to me about death, they can just shut the fuck up. Trace, didn't mean to poke the stick at you as was said. You were on the other side of the proverbial fence, and you put up a decent argument. As for the death penalty, thats a whole other can o' worms. As well as drugs, and guns, and alcohol. Goverment WAS based on religion, as much as we would hate to belive that. On the other hand however, or goverment is fucked anyway. WHY you might ask, because it keeps growing at an exponential rate. Originally it was created by a small group of white guys, getting super pissed at a whole bunch of other white guys. Then things changed, oops, slavery is gone now have to get some laws for that. No biggie right, well then we start making laws for everything. And stupid fucking laws at that. In Montana (and no we're not fucking backwards, ya'll have stupid laws like this in your states too.) if you are approached by 3 or more native americans and you are in a covered wagon to kill all of them. WHY you might ask, because they are considered a war party. The goverment makes laws, yet rarely do the remember to repeal them, or in some cases they just forget they exist. The world is in a fucking toilet bowl and the hand of whatever greater power there is, pushed the handle and we're all going down the great whirlpool of "social fuck-you." Have a nice day.

pardon my tardiness, as well. I'm impressed with y'all. Let's look at the first buncha messages of this thread: By Isolde on Friday, December 1, 2000 - 09:30 am: Well, what do people think about abortion rights? Support/not support? Why? 6 messages later: I think people should whatever they damn well please, I don't really care. So Isolde led us to a cliff of hot fuck, then dropped us off on our own. We will surely be consumed momentarily. I, for one, am tired of not having a say in abortions because I am male. you have 3 people involved (outside of the rape scenario). The child, the mother, and the father. People are: points of view. Does the fetusthing have it's own point of view? I do not know, so I must treat it as though it does. this is also why I talk to my computer. Should the father be able to force the mother into carrying a child for 9 months? Should a mother be able to end a point of view, or stop the transmission of said genetic heritage, especially in light of some peoples view that passing genes along is the whole point of the game? Touching Personal Anecdote: I have a daughter. I didn't get a choice. I was told that if I even mentioned the "A" word, she wouldn't ever talk to me again, would hate me forever. alright, then. see y'all back at the ranch.

no arguments, just facts. child abuse will never be eliminated. neither will murder. abortion. rape. drug abuse. fundamentalism. it's usually pro-lifers who get the most excited about killing, saying things like "And no, if youhave a child and are convicted of murder, all the more reason to FRY YOUR ASS!" and "If I got a girl pregnant and she had an abortion (and it would be without me knowing) I would kill the bitch....." there are plenty of people in the world. there is no lack of people. there are lots to go around. it's too goddamn bad some couples are sterile and don't think zero or one or two or more children are enough. life isn't fair, nosirree. it's too bad men can't bear children so the whole abortion issue could apply to both sexes equally. but it just doesn't. no man will ever accidentally be impregnated by another man. (life isn't fair.) people who complain about how hard it is to adopt are usually only interested in the healthy, white newborn market.

"I, for one, am tired of not having a say in abortions because I am male." whoever said this has as much of a say as any other american citizen. you are entitled to vote for politicians with a pro-life agenda. I'll continue to try to cancel your vote out. it's the american way. "I have a daughter. I didn't get a choice. I was told that if I even mentioned the "A" word, she wouldn't ever talk to me again, would hate me forever." this is fascinating. I love a good story. please tell me how you were forced to impregnate a woman. was it part of a fraternity hazing ritual? damn, all we got at the uw was eyeball puncture eyeballs and sheep sodomy.

Isn't it funny that most men who want to control a woman's right to an abortion usually can't control their own dicks? Then again, most men can't control their own dicks, and the ones who can are often accused of not being real men. Control, control... It's all about control...

has something happened lately cyst? you keep taking this aggressive position against the male gender when it comes to sex. do you believe it takes two to tango? Surely you realize that women get pregnant all the time...and its no more the man's fault than the woman's. Shit happens.... women sometimes lie to their male partners about their birth control "im on the pill, its ok to blow your load inside me" , women sometimes use pregnancy to control men...... im just wondering why you seem to have taken an aggressive bitter stance on the matter.....

I think I already said that somewhere??? YOU HAVE NO CHOICE, THEY DECIDE, ITS ALL UP TO THEM, AND WE HAVE NO CONTROL... DO YOU HEAR ME NO CONTROL. By Hal on Friday, December 1, 2000 - 09:48 am: sorabji.com: Are there any news?: Gore's Choice The day that happens... Civilization will end...

A girlfriend of mine told me her ex-boyfriend (yeah, I know but it ain't an urban myth) could do 360 degree circles with his erect cock. Now that would be a lovely party trick. Oh and on the abortion issue...I'm not 16, scared shitless and pregnant, so if I say anything I'll just be talking out of my nice comfortable I-can-afford-to-be-moralistic little ass like the rest of you. However on the subject of cocks...

ever since I found out that the national honor society does not allow pregnant girls to join (and presumably kick out girls who become pregnant), I've been kind of pissy about women having to take all the blame and all the responsibility for pregnancy. did I read about the nhs here? the national honor society does not kick out boys who impregnate girls. if men don't like that they have no control over whether women get abortions, then they should worry about the step in which they do have control. the part where they impregnate women who don't plan on carrying to term. I have no doubt that some women try to trick men into sleeping with them in order to get themselves knocked up. in order to try to get the man. whatever. but no guy ever has to trust a woman who says she's on the pill. there's no law saying guys aren't allowed to use condoms just in case. there's nothing preventing men from sleeping with manipulative women. if fewer pro-life guys were fucking bimbos, then there would be fewer abortions. this is a true fact. I'm sick of people not taking responsibility for that which they can control, like their mangy old dogs shitting in other people's yards. you know, all this sick talk of outlawing abortion, killing the fucking bitch, raped women can't get pregnant, whatever, wouldn't bother me so much if I knew it was only liberal-baiting, if I didn't know that a lot of men actually feel that way. on some level, I think I really feel that pro-life men have no business ever having sex with anyone other than the woman thay have very, very seriously planned raising children with.

and there is no law saying that women have to open their legs to let a man in. though your frustration doesnt speak to me....as Im not that kind of male....i understand your frustation with the honor socity's moronic rule..... I was just thinking that perhaps a more productive thing to do would be to direct that angst to those it actually belongs to.

if men don't want women to have abortions, then they shouldn't have sex with women who don't plan to raise children right away. or they should use condoms. I don't think that's a terribly anti-male sentiment.

You can get the morning after pill without a prescription in washington? That's CRAZY.

Consent is consent.... When you fuck someone, or let someone fuck you. You and they assume the responsibilities that takes on. If you don't then your fucking stupid. But then again think how many people in this nation as well as a few others who don't take those considerations. If everyone did, then abortion wouldn't be necissary at all because all the babies in the world would be wanted. To bad the world isn't perfect huh?

Give me a break, please? TWO people decided to have sex. (in this particular case, she knew that the sex was unprotected. I didn't.) TWO people started a new life/point of view. ONE person has say over whether or not said life/POV gets to live. I'm not arguing against personal responsibility. At all. It was my this in her that, and I was all for putting it there, and yeah, I should take responsibility for that. So let me. Give me some responsibility. Oh, wait. I'm male. I don't have to have it attached to me for 40 weeks. I must not exist anymore. As if all men lacked all morals. As if having one y chromosome in the wrong place means that we are devoid of emotion, or caring, or the need to do anything other than shove our cocks in every available hole. such bullshit. All personal stuff aside, suddenly: It ultimately, perhaps, comes down to your point of view on life? Is it better to give a child the shot at life? He may be a beethoven, she may be an Einstein. Life has the potential to be ultimately beautiful. Can we deny that someone? Is it worthwhile, on the other hand, to bring an unwanted child into an unready home, or a state orphanage, or a foster home? Into situations rife with abuse, hatred, and cruelty? Patrick: no man is an island. that's the last thing I've to say on this argument. I leave you all to condemn me for being the ultimate evil man. See y'all in hell.

I don't think you're an evil man, Tom. However, if you do have sex with someone and you haven't worked out what might happen, then you should be prepared for all possibilities. If you're not, then you shouldn't be having sex. No woman is an island either. But neither is she something you can or should control. And, while the child is completely in her care, completely a part of her, neither is he/she/it. That's just the way it is. Any control you think you have is just a rumor of a whisper of an idea of control. It does not exist. For thousands of years men have had complete control over women's lives. We're just going to have to get used to not having complete control anymore.

Oh, damnit. It's not the woman's life I want control over! I shouldn't have tossed the "no man is an island" in there. it was in response to Patrick's earlier comments about legalizing drugs and letting people do whatever they want to themselves, so long as it doesn't affect "society." Everything affects everyone. anyhow. Right. I should, indeed, be prepared for the possibilities. Frankly, I think I was. Was abortion a possible scenario, a figment, a figure, in my mind during this musing-of-possibilities: yes. Was the plan to hold her down while some Kafka-esque Herr Doktor went at her? NO! of course not! For the record, I don't like the idea of abortion; I am aware of the beauty inherent in life, and would not choose, unless in the strangest of circumstances, to stop such. I love life, and I love my daughter. You can put me firmly in the live and let live camp. You do what you want to do, but I'll be over here. Ultimately, it's all just energy. WE are all just particles, or waves, or whatever you care to call it. All the same, you've got to live life, you know? I do resent the fact that if she had wanted to kill OUR fetus, and I did not, she could have, and I would've been the bad guy for being domineering and oppressive and controlling, while she was touted for being in control, thinking for herself, and doing what she needed to do. If I wanted to kill said fetus and she doesn't, I am the bad guy for wanting to murder, as well as for being domineering and oppressive and controlling. This all probably sounds hideously shallow. I'm sorry for that. I'm sorry for responding when I said I was done. Abortive fathers, too, are haunted by the images and voices of said abortees. At least, so say the ones I've known. ach. and what's the meaning of life? Is it just to pass genes on? if so, fathers should get a say, especially if they're willing to care for and deal with the child. if there is no meaning to life, I guess it doesn't really matter one way or the other, now, does it? If the meaning of life involves the honor of some jewish god, well, then. we're all screwed. blah. ramble and rant. fuck this topic. it will never be resolved, and people will seldom, if ever, budge on it.

I don't think you sound shallow, Tom. I know that there are strong, strong emotions at work here. Otherwise it wouldn't be such a contentious issue. And, you're right, it isn't fair for the man. Yes, the judgement of the man and the woman in the situation is unequal. That's because the situation itself is unequal. The woman DOES have more responsibility! Men should get used to it being unfair and accept it. It's part of the burden they must bear, the burden of uncertainty.

And that is why its fun.

UNDERSTAND: THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO ALL WOMEN. IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT YOU! This may not apply to any woman who posts on this board. There are "voodoo" women who punch holes in their diaphraghms at night with pins, and their are women who do not take the pill and say they are, and there are women who let you use the condom the first time, but five minutes after you are done, they want to go again, and you, silly boy, have already taken the condom off because who wants to lie there whith this nasty condom on your dick? and they want it now! Men, not an excuse, but a fact none the less, at that point only think about one thing. Afterwords we always think "Oh my god, what have I done". But, of course it is too late. We want the baby, are ready to take care of the baby our selves even, but she wants to "terminate the condition" anyway. What can we do? Nothing. Why? Because it's not our body. You can't argue that. it is not. Such is our burden. We cannot force the woman to keep it or abort it, we simply have no choice in the pro-choice world. Even, as in my case, after we rent a house with a second bedroom that is already decorated as a nursery, engaged for over 6 months, have talked about a baby, have asked her if she gets pregnant, are we going to keep it and she says yes, she wants a baby, begs to get pregnant, then ooops, she finds out she is pregnant and has it aborted. After we discussed it before she got pregnant, and after I told her I was ready to take care of the baby after she said she was pregnant, then I don't see her for a few days, and botta-bing the wonders of medical science prevail again, and she is no longer pregnant. Needless to say, we are not married today. Fine. She got scared. Fine, it is her body. Fine, it is her choice. So was her pushing me to get a house instead of an apartment. And so was her making sure it was safe enough for a child. And so was her accepting my marriage proposal. So was her begging to get pregnant and getting me excited over the idea of having a child. But, men should have no say, because it is not our body. All this talk about rape, underage children having children, people who cannot afford to feed their cat, people to lazy and stupid to change a litter box, so they have no business having children, over population, life and death situations, what about that? What about my story? I do not think it should be illegal. I think, if there is a father willing to step up and say "Luke I am your father", then he should have some kind of say. At least a little. But then, it is not right to give the man so much control over a woman that he can decide wether or not she is forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy for nine months. Besides, what is to keep her from doing unhealthy things to cause the baby to spontaneously abort? I am have seen stress do that to my wife. Most horrible thing I have ever seen. She clutched her stomach and was in the fetal position on the bed for hours before I got home and took her to the hospital...... far more painful I am sure then an abortion. We should not have that right. Huge catch 22. We will bitch about it and be bitter, but I do not see how it can changed. Because there are men out there who are bastards enough that do not want the child either, but want the woman to go through that agony. And we should never be able to punish a woman that way. So what the fuck? I guess just deal with it. No, it's not easy, but alternative is far less desirable

So, then, you see that the issue is never balck and white, so that's why it needs to be legal, because that deals with the grayness of the issue. Trace, I'm sorry, you got a raw deal, and I'd be surprised if anyone here thinks otherwise. For me, the main issue is personal control over one's body. Until birth, the fetus is part of a woman. Arguments about souls and such aside, that doesn't change. If it's in your body, you have the final say over it.

And that will and should never change

Well said, Sem. I'm glad that you abortion is not black and white, Trace. It's tough that you got worked, that she didn't even discuss that with you. I would have been upset too, because that kind of stuff really isn't fair. To not even bring you into the equation when you were clearly ready to step forward and help...Maybe she thought she'd lose her nerve if she talked to you...

maybe so, but I think I am the better for it now.

Yeah, I think you are--if she's going to do something like that without qualms, she might not have been the best choice of bride. It's just unimaginable that she didn't even talk to you about it...

give me a fuckin break "women sometimes lie to their male partners about their birth control "im on the pill, its ok to blow your load inside me", women sometimes use pregnancy to control men......" i am sorry for those of you who got to the point of pregnancy and didn't have a choice, but..... like cyst said...if you are male and you don't want to have a baby 1] don't have sex 2] protect YOURSELF at all times 3] in the extreme, have surgery 4] lobby and vote for the kind of legislation that you think will help YOU HAVE A CHOICE. if you wanted a baby, tried to have one, and then the choice was taken from you [and i have no idea how often this might happen, it seems unusual, but people are strange] i am sorry.

tom, tell us about your daughter. i think it would be a huge understatement to say that women who poke holes in condoms/diaphragms are the exception. should we as a society legislate based on exceptions?

you dont think there are manipulative women like that? you don't think the whole notion of a womans "biological clock" and the pressure some women inflict on themselves to reproduce leads them to manipulate the men? Maybe not you, maybe not cyst, maybe none of the women here...I detailed words on another thread about a friend of my wife's who told my wife she should deceive me to have a child, if my wife wanted one. This woman acted as if nothing was wrong with her suggestion. It was unfucking believable. when have heard the notion "biological clock" in reference to men? Its extremely difficult for a man to manipulate a woman in to having a child, its her body...he can only go so far short of rape. I dont think anyone is denying men have choices. Im not.But so do women, far more choices than men.In fact all of those choices above apply to women as well. but to think males, and hell females, for that matter are going to be completely rational when it comes to lust and sex...all the time is nonsense. You do the best you can under the circumstances. anyway, thers not much point in bouncing this gender ball back and forth...as I think we essentially agree...perhaps i had problems with cyst's perceived condemnation of the male gender. Statements like "keep your cock you pants" seemed inflammatory.....and pointless. no more than "keep your legs closed" from me i suppose.

I still don't understand why women who poke holes in diaphragms would want to get abortions. just to make the men they hook up with agonize over the women's decisions? that is truly bizarre. (I also wonder if it's occurred to these men whose former girlfriend have secretly poked holes in their diaphragms may also have been lying later on when they said they were pregnant and got an abortion.) it's completely true that the way the laws are currently interpreted, women can try to trick men into courses of action that may have very serious repercussions for them. woman pretends she's on the pill, and the man then either has his fetus sucked down a tube or makes big monthly payments for 18 years or whatever. and this is the best possible way for the legal system to deal with the issue. so men should be really careful. it's clear that every time you have sex, you have to be willing to face the worst possible consequences. in my experience, men know who the really-bad-news women are, and they go for them anyway. if you can't figure it out, ask a female friend. ask a gal pal, "is that woman fucking nuts and should I just steer the fuck clear?" they'll know, and they'll tell you. or just wait until you're truly committed to a woman and she to you, wait until you're married, and then have sex.

i've got about five minutes, so i didn't read all of the posts after i asked the drug question, so if i'm saying something that has been said sorry. in a few minutes i will leave my happy little home to drive to the state's capital where the state's prison for women resides. in that prison i will be speaking with 22 women who are currently being "rehabilitated." you couldn't convince me if you spent a thousand years that doing drugs only affects the person who is using. i have heard "it is my life, fuck what other people think." hundreds of times from these women, but somehow they did something illegal to get them into the prison. lots of assaults and robbery. 80% of the women there had families that abused drugs and alcohol, you can't tell me that it only affects the user. it is a societal problem that needs to be addressed. legalizing drugs won't cut down on the abuse of the drug nor will it help the children in a family where the drug is being consumed. freaking frack people.

How, Cyst, can you tell if a woman is truly commited to you? If you are engaged, and and spoken about having a baby, and she begs for a baby, what the fuck else was I supposed to do? I beleived her for chrissakes, because I loved her and we were getting married. I wanted children, I had a good job with good insurance, and no worries. What was I supposed to do? Strap her to a lie detector? Those who mistrust their friends should be more ashamed than those who have been deceived by their friends..... Why question my fiance?

"legalizing drugs won't cut down on the abuse of the drug nor will it help the children in a family where the drug is being consumed. " That is true, but once again, such as the case in alchohol and fire arms (two other potentially lethal items if in the wrong hands) you cannot legislate common sense. You cannot, no matter how badly you may want to, teach people that if you have children, you should not drink excessively around them, take drugs in front of them, or store a loaded fire arm where they can get to it. The same goes for teaching people to only use what they can afford, and not take so much that you cannot go to work and you loose your job so you have to rob to pay for your habit, or whatever. In the meantime, new laws simply restrict the rights of the responsible ones. And reduction of restrictions will increase competition in the Capitalist Model, thus reducing cost and crime that associated with being able to afford it, or run it or manufacture it. It will cut down on crime, I guarantee it.

"in my experience, men know who the really-bad-news women are, and they go for them anyway" men aren't always thinking logically, hormones can make a man do silly things, and a women as well. bell jar, when i spoke of the drug "problem" i wasnt referring to people who commit crimes while on drugs. i was talking about the millions of people like me, who use drugs in a recreational manner, who abide by almost all laws, doesnt jaywalk, votes, drives safely and pays his taxes, respects his elders, and has enough sense to know that if he had childeren in the house, pot smoking would be confined to out of the child's view until he/she was old enough to be leveled with about pot smoking. the people you are speaking too had problems from the get go, or so you imply.....

"but somehow they did something illegal to get them into the prison. lots of assaults and robbery." I bet there'd be a lot fewer incidents of assault and robbery associated with drug use if drugs were legalized.

Thank you Cyst! That is exactly what I was trying to say

oh definitely. People wouldnt have to steal to get cash for their heroin fix, the black market would virtually be eliminated....gangs, turfs and violent drug deals would virtually vanish.

trace, no, I suppose you can't always tell. sounds like things have turned out really well for you, though. instead of wasting time wishing for the son you can probably never have, maybe you should be thankful for all you do have (though I'm sure you already are). there are crazy, deceitful, manipulative women out there. (and tons of bad guys too.) and, sometimes, don't you wonder if maybe it's best that those crazy women decide to have abortions rather than doing crazy things while they're pregnant or, worse, while they're raising children? abortion isn't a pleasant thing, but it's necessary in a civilized society. we can't force women to have children, we can't force them to take good care of themselves and not do crazy things while they're pregnant. (and we shouldn't want to.)

And, people who do not know how to handle them selves will o.d. within months, wow think of the things that could fix! Really, though, I think we are wasting time and money and resources fighting the drugs

I would almost have urged my sister in law to have one. I think I have talked about her worthless ass before, but she did have a boy, so I do have a nephew. I don't think about not being able to have a boy much at all, because if I mention it infront of my wife, it hurts her, of course. She wants to give me a son, but I love my two girls so much, that I am content

Two experiences I'd like to relate that have formed my views: The first girl I had sex with told me she was pregnant. We'd used birth control, but I was 15, she was my first girlfriend, first sexual partner, and I didn't know if I'd done anything right. She wasn't pregnant, but she let me to think that for two months. That kinda stopped me from trusting women for a while. When I finally did trust someone enough I was 19, but she decided one summer to stop taking the pill and not tell me. Luckily we weren't that active, though not for lack of her trying. Needless to say we broke up. A year later she did get pregnant. I'm not sure of the circumstances, but the father skipped out on her. She had the kid, though, and he's a beautiful child. That's why I say you have to be prepared for everything. That's why I have to be prepared for everything.

Plus of course, if you don't use a condom, you are askingto get hit with a nasty disease. Sometimes you get one even if you use a condom. people should not have unprotected sex if they are not absolutely sure that they are clean, or that their partner is clean. Then they shouldn't have unprotected sex if there is any doubt that the woman (if your partner is a woman) is not telling the truth regarding their use of birth control. It's common sense. isn't it?

i don't see anything wrong with abortion. i think the decision to abort should be both partner's decisions. if there is a disagreement, then the woman's choice in the matter automatically should get priority over the man's, because it's her body, and nobody has the right to tell another person what he or she can and can't do to their own body. including suicide.

How can it be both partner's decision if the woman's choice always has priority?

What do you want to know, Agatha? I could wax sappy? Her name is Morganne. (Probably a good safe name. I wasn't involved in that decision either.) I don't think I'm supposed to love her. She's one year and one month old (or she will be in 4 days). I haven't seen her in ... 5 months now. I get to talk to her on the phone occasionally; if the bitch is in a decent mood. She calls her mom's father "daddy." I'm not real happy about that. She has red-auburn hair. She looks just like I did, when I was her age. It's almost frightening. My parents see her more than I do. They claim she has my eyes, too. She's brilliant. Pushy and pampered, but brilliant. And she has that *giggle* down pat. The one that melts crusty old men, along with bricks, rocks, etc. I could whine about how I was "tricked" into conception, but that's lame. As people have said, I should've protected myself. And I'm happy she's around, even if I never get to see her. I write her letters, but I'm relatively sure that her mom destroys them. Mom has full custody, which is probably healthy? maybe? this early in life, regardless of the fact that said mom still lives with her parents, and is most likely doing little of consequence with her life, fobbing the child off on whichever relative or friend comes around first. fuck. um. I'm really angry now, so I'm cutting this post short. See y'all later.

isolde, why do you think it's crazy you can get the morning-after pill without a prescription here in wahsington state?

Little kids are cool. And I won't deny that, the *giggle* as you so put it, is a powerful weapon, and if the goverment could hone that weapon then the world would be ours... In any case I saw something last night that could change the whole situation, BUT our goverment is too concerned with money as well as the companies that provide birth control. I saw it on dateline, and yes I know that there are better forms of info availible in the world but hey it was there. They were talking about all these forms of birth-control that are availible over in european countries that are WAY more fucking effective than some of the shit we have here. Examples: The STUPID PROOF CONDOM, that is impossible to put on wrong. A device that using a females urine tells them if they are fertile or not, and gives them the green or red light as to whether or not its ok to have sex. A couple of forms of hormone control that are way more effective and use way less in the way of hormones to effect the females biology. Anyway, some of them were pretty neat ( yes I did just say neat.) And the only way to get them over here is to smuggle them in... Isn't that fucking asinine? Shit, a couple of them have no harmfull effects, for one the fertility meter or whatever it was called, all the women does is pee on a stick and put it in a little box. Shit people, if only we had some of that shit, we would have as much of this UNWANTED baby bullshit. Alot of abortions that happen with young people these days is just because they were either stupid or just not as carefull as they could have been. Or in some rare cases, the measures they did take failed. Well shit, no one's perfect, but in this aspect we all need to take the responsibility and care.

"I bet there'd be a lot fewer incidents of assault and robbery associated with drug use if drugs were legalized." blah. i doubt it. here is my soap box talk: if drugs were legalized the US government could tax it. you think drug prices would go down? if you do you're living in a dream world. prices would go up way up. crack whores now would have to steal and sell their bodies. legalizing wouldn't help the problem. i believe it would increase it. sure there are a lot of assaults and robberies due to being high on drugs, but there are also a lot that are due to drying to get money for drugs. it works the same all around. i once believed what you believe, that there are millions of recreational users who are only hurting themselves. shitballs. there are millions of addicts and abusers that don't need to be egged on to continue their behavior. it's so hard to convey. i wish you could walk a day in my shoes there, and you would understand. this girl who i intern with, she was of the same mindset as me before we began and now she and i both grapple with the thought that alcohol should be illegal too.

Also though, right now you can never be sure the quality of the drugs your getting... If the goverment sells them, much like they do alcohol, then you could be sure of the quality and the purity. Think about pot, shit, look at amsterdam for one, yeah so they have this horrible prostitution thing going for them, but thats because of turists. Don't legalize all drugs, just pot... I can't smoke it, but hey wouldn't it be nice, and think of the revenu that the gov would pull in due to selling pot in state controlled POT STORES???

Prices would go way up? Prove it.

They might not... But remember it would be taxed... On the other hand, because it was being sold by the goverment, it wouldn't have to have the high price it has now because it would be legal, people wouldn't have to charge so much because they might get busted.

"crack whores now would have...to sell their bodies." umm...i thought that was the definition of a crack whore....anyway alcohol illegal? you are crazy. people abuse and sometimes kill themselves with cigarettes, prescription drugs, food, stress, cold medicine, sex paraphenalia, boats, cars, airplanes, bicycles, surf boards, hard labor, christmas lights, and fake cheese making alcohol illegal would not stop many of those who abuse it from doing so. but on making drugs legal: for the government to support and even sell dangerous, highly addictive drugs...could that really make sense to anyone? and the issue of pot. so it's not dangerous per se, but i've had more than a few friends [granted they might not have been that exciting to begin with] who started smoking pot and became incredibly boring goal-less slugs. it is definitely closer to falling into the category of alcohol. but what do i care really, i suppose i'm only supporting a possible future use, and i have no fear of alcohol being made illegal.

It's really weird in Amersterdam when you walk past 15 year olds toking back on a huge joint and blowing smoke in the face of cops. Like some bloody Mad Max movie. The sad thing about prostitution in the Netherlands is that it's mainly Asian women. It has distinct and uncomfortable echoes of slavery.

it is interesting how drugs and abortion end up in the same discussion. the bottom line is that both are diabolical. i'm no angel, but if we could learn to live without drugs, perhaps we could then understand that abortion is simply wrong. life begins at conception. for christ's sake, the egg and the sperm are living organisms; if only single cells. how can anyone think for one minute that the product of their union is not alive?

In about 15 years every cell in your body will, with a little help, be able to become a complete human being, just like that sperm and egg. What then?

Neither drugs not abortion is diabolical. They just are. You judge them to be diabolical. There's a difference.

do you eat meat?

if you believe that evil exists, then the diabolic exists as well. what would the devil himself enjoy more than for us to limit our procreation, when that is the very reason for which we were placed on this earth? the "cloning" argument doesn't wash. it's just another distraction from the question of whether we should "adjust" our rate of reproduction by artificial means. agatha, yes, i eat meat. give me a break. please make a meaningful contribution.

She is. I don't believe that evil exists. What now?

well then, what about good?

Why is the cloning argument a distraction? Do you believe that artificial insemination is good? Do you believe that people should use contraception?

What about good?

you ask a lot of questions. i have answers for all of them, but you haven't answered mine.

(...sleep is good at the moment, and I'm going to it...)

You have answers? Spew! But I have a feeling I know what they are already... So, to your questions: "the egg and the sperm are living organisms; if only single cells. how can anyone think for one minute that the product of their union is not alive?" Sure, they're alive, but then again so is every cell in your body, in exactly the same way. YOu kill those cells all the time. Are you a murderer? "well then, what about good?" I guess you're asking if I think good exists. My answer is, "yep."

as you said,...time to sleep.

Hold up, there, Antigone: You believe in the existence of good, but not of evil? Ses: "if you believe that evil exists, then the diabolic exists as well." um. why? "evil," like "good," is a purely human thing. subjective in appearance, and wholely influenced and created by the interaction of mortals. We don't need a devil. To be a groupie: "The Devil" is only Pan, and he's all for procreation, I gaurantee it. You're taking "be fruitful and multiply" to a whole new level here, though. I'm afraid we might have to start talking about *gasp* the environment. Does this logic of "we were meant to procreate, that's why we're here," ever address the fact that humans, by their sheer number, are destroying "life" on this planet? That because of our ability to fight with our surroundings, we are throwing huge, complex, and ancient systems out of whack? "Be fruitful, and multiply." To the exclusion of everything else on the planet save herpes? Humans are a waste of Carbon Nitrogen Oxygen Hydrogen... we are blessed and lucky just to be alive.

Drugs: an opinion. Marijuana should be used carefully under the supervision of doctors. It can be used to treat: glaucoma, nausea, and the possible onset of capitalism / dollarism or blind adherence to puritanical dogma. Cocaine should be a monks habit. Everyone should be allowed to try it once; the people who feel a calling should renounce their family and friends, walk the earth (like Kane/Cain/whatever in Kung Fu) as an astetic for a year and a day, then lock themselves in a small house with a set number of other cokeheads. LSD/Peyote/Mushrooms, etc: Administer under spiritually uplifting circumstances, once every six months or so, depending upon the amount of learning, pondering, questioning, and creation undertaken by subject. X/uppers: May be taken at any time, so long as each person only gets the amount allowed by a doctor/expert, based on the persons weight, genetics, known tolerance levels, metabolism, and time/amount of last ingestion. right. actually, lots of drugs fall under the cocaine ruling.

i'm thinking about naming my dick "beluga".

Is it black and slimy? Or is it an acquired taste?

Tom, Now your asking the government to classify types of drugs, I just don't trust them to get it straight. All arguments are good, but I still think they should be made legal. Either all or none. Don't ask the gov to decide which is what, and I don't think the gov should be selling it. It should be just like produce. Label it and package it and submit it for (this should be a hoot) FDA approval. Make sure it's not laced or what have it, and let the good times roll! The idiots who cannot control themselves should o.d. in about six months, and what is left is a responsible population!

Bell_jar, please tell me you are aware that certain drugs such as crack only became popular after the crackdown on cocaine. The whole connection for everything on this thread is personal responsibility. Should we be responsible for our own lives, or should the government take responsibility? Does one person's personal theology take precedence over another's? (Of course, if you are a Christian, historically, the answer is yes. Manifest Destiny has moved from real estate to the womb!) I can understand the arguments about not aborting viable feti (fetuses?), that have a high probability of surviving outside the womb with no ill affects. I have a problem equating such a creature with a blastocyst.(Is that the right term?)

This is going to sound like a cliche, but it is true. With freedom comes resposibilities, and if you cannot handle them, then the concequences are yours to deal with. PERSONAL RESPONIBILITY IS THE QUALITY MOST AMERICANS ARE LACKING

well, maybe. it's just that it's been making these noises lately. beautiful, haunting noises, like it's calling out to the pod. it's been doing this ever since i visited the vancouver aquarium and saw the beluga whales. fortunately, no one hears it but me (and hopefully the pod).

Tom, yes I believe in good but not evil. What most people think of as evil is just confusion or selfishness. People use the idea of evil to seperate themselves from others so they can say, "I'm not that." To quote from Kahlil Gibran's _The_Prophet_, "Of the good in you I can speak, but not of the evil. For what is evil but good tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"

Crack was introduced to south central and slowly the rest of america via the CIA to help fund the Iran Contra and the Sandanista rebels in Nicoraugua (spell?) right????? They got top notch dope from Nicoraugua, figured out how to make it ten times addictive, and proceeded push it and fund the rebels. there is no proof prices would go up. It could be subject to market demand. Sure the gov't could be tyranical about it and set such ridiculously high prices but what good what that do them? It becomes a product like any other. I've never heard that the prices in the Netherlands are outrageous. Its all about personal liberty and when you start talking about illegalizing alcohol......well.....the discussion just goes to shit at that point. Also the prostitutes in the Netherlands....and elsewhere for that matter.....if prostitution were legal, which it should be, the profession could be regulated like any other. Sesquis or whatever the fuck your name is..... you seem to be dancing around the introduction of morality/spirituality into your argument....which we arent touching with a ten foot pole, you seem to know that this introduction into your argument would negate it almost immediately. when you start talking about "the devil" in regards to ANYTHING.....your positions on everything else could almost immediately be mapped.

this is a test and we are failing sem, sometimes you are so clear and clever without being pretentious that it tickles me of good and evil, see my post after crimson's dream

hopefully there would be fewer victims if prostitution were widely legalized if an adult woman wants to use her body for money my guess is that she will no matter what is legal laws don't stop people who do things that hurt other people from doing them

Why is this a test and how are we failing?

im betting there is no test, and there are no failures.

<AAAAAAANNNNGGGGGG!> WRONG! NEXT! :-P

Do want you want to do, and forget what everyone else thinks or says

"Evil is simply the absence of love." -Wendy Pini. Support your local Sex worker's union! in whatever manner you wish. I must refer Sesquialtera to the current issue of the Onion. It's another of those cosmic coinkidinks. Heather, thank you. I strive to be a militant agnostic ("i don't know, and NEITHER DO YOU") but i don't get in your face about it, i just like to point out what we can really talk about in terms of the more concrete facts. See how I avoid absolutes?

sesquialtera -- do you think women who spontaneously miscarry (because, perhaps, they were not treating their bodies like temples) should be charged with manslaughter?

"life begins at conception. for christ's sake, the egg and the sperm are living organisms; if only single cells. how can anyone think for one minute that the product of their union is not alive?" so, because life begins at conception, abortion is wrong, but eating meat is okay? is this because you assume superiority over any species that isn't human? you step on ants every day on the sidewalk, what the fuck is the difference? if you were genuinely concerned with this issue, you would see my point here. it is our own egotism as humans that allows us to differentiate between these two issues. if you are truly pro-life, then it makes sense that you would be a vegetarian. in fact, you would be a vegan, because eating eggs would be murderous. "agatha, yes, i eat meat. give me a break. please make a meaningful contribution." your condescending attitude will not serve to refute the issue. you are a total hypocrite. fuck you and the blanket of superiority that you like to hide under.

YEAH!!! *shakes fist*

I eat meat.

i work with teenage boys now... they don't understand why they can't smoke in the house. even those with arson charges don't understand. i don't think i like shapes. for a while i thought i did, but man those circles...

Oh goodie! Bell_Jar must've gotten those fungi I sent her.

i got fungi? what the hell? i didn't get any. my roommate must've stolen it. tom the fighter pilot. i'm online and will be so for the next half an hour, if you want to speak to me. if you don't you're a punk ass bitch and i didn't want to talk to you anyway.

i don't remember bashing anyone else's opinion. all i did was post my own. it was YOU, agatha, (and the swarm of "know-it-alls" who frequent this ridiculous excuse for a life/hobby that mark thomas calls his web site) who pounced on ME. so, FUCK YOU. at first i thought i might actually find some intelligent discussion here. instead, those of you who consider yourselves insiders just trade inuendo and sarcasm back and forth while taking the more than occasional pot shot at those who are passing through. so, i thought i'd hang around and see what i could stir up. by the way, agatha, my words must really be stirring you up. you spend a lot of time re-typing them!! although i owe none of you an explanation of my feelings and opinions at this point, that facts are that 1)i am catholic, 2)i don't believe in abortion, 3)i disagree with the church's position on birth control, 4)i believe that if we are "fruitful and multiply", god will take care of us one way or another, and 5)i eat meat because god gave us dominion over the creatures of the earth. these are my beliefs. they carry responsibilities with them. if they make me an asshole in your enlightened eyes, that is a name i will wear with pride. i'm not asking anyone to agree with me. your collective problem is that none of you can bear the expression of an opinion that differs from your own. you're merely seeking approval and agreement from one another. oh, cyst, (that's a good name for you) your question doesn't deserve a response. i'm sorry that i don't fit the mold around here. but that's tough shit. grow up and deal with it. by the way, is the real problem that none of you know what sesquialtera means?

the argument that all life is equal (and that a human fetus equals an human adult equals an ant equals a paramecium equals a carrot) raises a whole lot of unresolvable issues. many life forms cannot exist without killing others. wild lions, for example. pitcher plants for another (I think). those birds that steal others' nests. as distasteful as it may seem to some sensitive vegetarians, killing is a way of nature. plus, meat tastes so goddamn good, what about that?

your facts and beliefs come prepackaged for you from rome. that's easy and fine. but why try to argue if you've already been fed your lines? (I know that sounds anti-catholic, but it's not. all the organized religions mean the same thing to me. I'm actually a little fond of catholicism because my family is catholic, and they've created such beautiful architecture and art. you've got to have some respect for the force that inspired the building of la sagrada familia.) but seriously, s. I don't see why it seems such a great leap from abortion=murder to miscarriage=manslaughter. does anyone else think that's illogical?

oh, sorry, you disagree with the church's position on birth control. good for you! what a beautiful philosophy, that if we just fuck and give birth enough, god will take care of the rest. maybe if the residents of, say, jakarta and bombay were christians, their standard of living would be a whole lot higher. because, good god, there sure are enough of them!

cyst, i wish you had said all this in your earlier post. i'm sorry but i thought you're one-liner was just supposed to be sarcastic. a mis-carriage is natural occurence. a neglectful woman who loses her baby may have committed a sin in the church's eyes (i certainly won't judge), but i don't believe that makes her guilty of manslaughter. my beliefs may very well be pre-packaged. all i'm saying is that i choose to accept them (except the birth control thing). now, technically, i'm a bad catholic because one is not supposed to pick and choose. well, i just can't accept that all birth control is wrong in every case. i guess my attitude seems archaic, but i'm fine with it. thanks for your comments.

Sesquialtera, you call us arrogant and then say our opinions and arguments are not worthy of a response. I find that funny.

I mean, is there a point at which we'll have been fruitful enough and multiplied enough? ok, god told us to do that that back when there were, what, two of us? we're now up to 6,500,000,000. don't you think he's happy yet? it took almost all of human history--until 1804--for the earth's population to reach 1 billion. in just 12 years, from 1987 to 1999, for humans to increase their number by 1 billion. I'm not sure if these folks are on god's shit list or what, but the world health organization estimates that more than 3 billion people, mostly in asia and africa, suffer from malnutrition. and, again, I'm not sure what god's plans are, but according to cornell university ecologist david pimentel, by 2100, "12 billion miserable humans will suffer a difficult life on earth." but I did have a nice big lunch today. know ye this: the roast beef at larry's market is far superior to that at qfc. (does anyone else keep hoping for the rapture? I mean, wouldn't it be sort of cool if all us heathens suddenly got the place to ourselves?)

actually, i refused to answer ONE comment because i mistakenly thought that it was only meant to provoke. i apologized for that and did discuss the issue. i guess you missed that.

i hope these facts are correct. i thought that this planet has the capability of feeding itself; mostly by the united states. maybe it's the political barriers that need to come down. if this planet functioned as a single community, i think we could all eat, at least for the immediate future. for me it was flank steak at lunch. very fine.

s - I am trying to be sarcastic. and serious at the same time. I sort of admire christians who can stand up to criticism from so many. I know many deeply religious people are very intelligent, and it's their burden to sound reasonable to the rest of us. I want someone who is religious as well as intelligent and wise to try to convince me that the world would be a better place if everyone thought as their group did. I really am listening--because I think it's fascinating that a thinking person can go along with all those church precepts--but I haven't heard anything convincing yet. (and I've attended mass dozens of times, gone to ccd classes, gotten lectures from the grandparents, gone to episcopalian, baptist and presbyterian services, read whole books of the bible, etc.)

cyst, i have to leave the office now (boy did i get a lot of work done during this last hour!). if you're around later this evening i'd love to kick this around some more. i'm rarely as precise as i'd like to be, but i enjoy trying to explain myself to the heathens (just kidding!) talk with you later, i hope.

I hope to not be around here later tonight. there's probably still plenty of time to save my heathen ass, but don't try too hard. everyone gets along better here when we stick to only mildly controversial and exceptionally unimportant topics. abortion, drugs, religion, global population arguments too often end up with me writing post after post after post, responding to no one. most of the interesting people stay away from shit like this.

Sesquialtera -- it has something to do with organ stops I think. Are you an organist? I heard Messiaen's Desseins Eternels last night on the radio -- had never heard it before. Truly awesome. I'm not an organist, I just play one on tv.

My dad's an organist. Tonight I'm going to sing at the church where he's the organist and choir director. I'm just a church music lovin' agnostic...

Have him play In a gadda vida during the service, a la The Simpsons. Rock and or roll.

i dont think anyone was asking for an explanation for your feelings.....S I also dont recall anyone calling you an asshole for your opinions. I think we are little better than that. and to storm in knocking ther very place you are hanging, calling mark's site pathetic...well.....thats not a way to make friends around here...ya dig. i think most here have respect for mark...and though you are entitled to your opinion........you see how this might get you off on the wrong foot. also i think we areound here are starved for different opinions.....a lot of us tend to have similar opinions...and where we differ we have beaten each other up relentlessly. And well, Trace has made a fine whipping post, but i think we would actually love to have some serious, intelligent bible thumpers to talk to in here from time to time. oh, and i dont see that anyone has extended the sorabji welcome.....so let me take the lead and invite you to eat a dick you ass! i think, well at least me, anyway, is that a discussions of such topics as abortion in the American political realm are pointless with someone who has a faith-based opinion. As i have said before, your faith or anyone else's faith has no place in legislation. i know, for one, i would not like to be a christian in Jakarta right now....

...and don't whine about gettin' a whippin' when you jump into the cage...

Aye, Paddy, she didna get off on the right foot, did she now? But she an' cyst made nice, so ya might give her some credit there, laddie. If only me S/O's would've done. But what I wanna know is is S a lad or a lass. And if a lass (and a good Catholic one at that) does she wear those bonnie school uniforms in her spare time, and if so, might she post some pictures of herself wearing them? Ya know, with those white knee socks and the like. Aye, would do a body good to see that it would.

sorry folks, i've been away. <secret sorabji handshake> S- you sound like an ignorant cunt.

i am not opposed to eating meat. i am simply pointing out the hypocrisy of being pro-life and eating meat. as for me "attacking" you, i was really irritated by your presumption that i was incapable of "making a meaningful contribution." i did not question you in any fashion that could cause you to react so defensively. i think it's fine that you believe whatever you want. what i don't like is when people try to shove their opinions down the throats of others, and then refute the other person as a human rather than refuting their argument. as for retyping your posts, i like to use a little trick called "cut and paste." i was reserving my judgement of you until later, but i do believe my mind has been up at this point. i know lots of roman catholics that i like and respect, but your smarmy pseudo-intellectual persona disturbs me profoundly. have a nice day. i'm going to go walk my dog.

cut and paste?

oh, and by the way, as i stated earlier, i am anti-abortion personally. i also don't eat meat. to me, they are the same issue. however, i would never ever try to push my personal views of abortion or vegetarianism on to others. herein lies the difference between you and i, sesquialtiera. everyone else, i think sesquialtiera's gender is male, although i could be mistaken.

I think so too. I don't know what that word means, though. not in the new american heritage dictionary.

Cyst Help! Do you know if "Warzawa" is the non-anglicised version of Warsaw?

I think it's "Warszawa" (in the nominative, anyway).

yeah, "Warszawa." which, according to my understanding of polish pronunciation, would come out "var-sha-va."

Thank you berry berry much. Sorry to interrupt all, back to our regular program of "Is That a Knot in Your Knickers or Have You Seen Nate's Nakey Pic?"

Sesquialtera: A stop on the organ,containing several ranks of pipes which re-enforce some of the high harmonics of the ground tone,and make the sound more brilliant.

warszawa is a great song. low is a great album. what the hell happened to david bowie?

He put himself on the stock market.

WHIPPING POST???????????????????

Listen to me you ASSES! I dont give a shit what you do with your bodies, and I dont the government has a moral leg to stand on to tell anyone what they can do with it, it is the most corupt and vial thing on this planet, but I still beleive abortion is murder. However, Sesquialtera, my wife had 5 miscarriages, through no fault of her own (except that her body has a deficiency that will not allow the baby to attach itself at six weeks). Is she guilty of manslauter and a sinner? That may be why I am so against abortion, because I know the pain of people trying to have a baby, but medically cannot. But, once again that is no reason to push my beliefs into law. Either way, that is exactly why, even though I was raised, almost litteraly, by a pentacostal curch, I shy away from religion. Aside from the fact that all religions seem to be money grubbing whores, the freaks that are part of the congregation because they think they are HOLIER THAN THOU ART love to judge, oh god do they love to judge. If there is a god, let him be my judge.

good question dave. he looks great for his age these days. but i think he's misguided. although i love the song "Afraid of Americans". Hunky Dory is probably my favorite album...i don't have Low or Warszawa. Man Who Sold the World is another fav of mine.

I went to this show last night down the street from my apartment. There was this very tall man with lots of facial hair and a mop on his head. We talked about how the eighties are coming back... (fear but I couldn't get away with wearing these pants---they're horrid---if they weren't) But we talked about Bowie and how, yea, how, the little pipsqueak trying to sing on stage just wasn't him. ahhh. Dance magic dance magic dance. I'm back. :) Didyamissme?

Oh yea and as far as abortions go..... It's WRONG WRONG WRONG. You godless heathens.

I'm kidding. I've had twenty!

I'm kidding again! Sick bastards.

sorry, dougie. i'm a guy. i understand the school uniform thing. my fiancee has a pleated skirt and i'm always asking her to wear it. some things die hard, or not at all. thanx to those who knew or found out what my name means. that really meant a lot to me. it's actually a stop composed of two ranks (2&2/3' pitch and 1&3/5' pitch) and is used in conjunction with other stops (8' and 4' flutes) to create a unique solo voice combination that is used a lot in baroque music. from now on i'm just joe. i'm sorry for blowing up. i have no beef with anyone here (including mark) and i'm really not trying to "push" my opinions. i just wanted to discuss them. if i sounded high-handed i'm truly sorry. my job situation has been horrific lately and i've allowed some of those pent-up feelings to spill over onto other things (it's no excuse, that's just what's happening). again, my sincere apologies.

trace - i am very sorry about your wife's mis-carriages. my ex and i had our one child without any complications. i cannot even begin to understand your heartbreak and frustration. i never said that a woman is responsible for mis-carrying a pregnancy. i'm sorry if you thought that's what i said. i hope you have children now or are still trying.

DAMMIT, I knew it. Ah, fer the love of Pete. Well, maybe you could post pix of your fiancee in her pleated skirt? Bowie's one cool dude. Saw him on Charlie Rose a while back. He's been doing lots with his art and his davidbowie.com. He's an ISP. Bowie's latest, Hours, was pretty good. Listened to it a couple of times last year right when it came out, then put it away. Will check out again tonight. My favs are Scary Monsters & Heroes. "It's No Game" is so awesome with the beginning in Japanese and Bowie's out of tune sing/screaming and Fripp's demented guitar licks. "Shut UP! SHUT UP!!!"

i'm over it, and forgive all. i'm the forgiving sort, as much as i try to pretend that i'm not.

Blessed are the peace makers for they will see God Agatha

thank you, agatha.

if anyone wants to talk about what it's like to be catholic, let's do it! it's definately a strange religion. i don't know for sure why i try to stick to it but i do.

Cause you have been brainwashed all your life.

actually, there was a lot of brainwashing in the early years, but i've tried to approach it logically as i have grown older.

And where did it get you?Do you believe it now?

ok, here go's. i believe that jesus christ is the son of god come down from heavan and made man; like us with all of our faults. god the father gave us a chance to be cool with him but we blew it in eden. he made us "like" him but we used the free will he gave us to challenge him and got ourselves in trouble. so, he sent his son to be with us and to try and get us to understand that we could have our free will but still be cool with god. oh man, i'm sorry. i've had a few beers tonight and i'm afraid i'm not making much sense. god has given us something that he didn't even give his angels - a soul. that is the primary reason why satan hates us so much. satan felt that god loved us more than he loved his angels who had been with him for eternity. the thing is, the catholic church believes that god created us in his image to serve him and ultimately to be with him in paradise. perhaps it's a strange concept. if god loves us so much, why do we have to go through this life in order to be with him? i don't know. however, the end result is very appealing. ok,...i'm done for tonight. i'll try again tomorrow.

why does god allow the most horrible, unspeakable acts to be committed against his flock. why, if someone gets their legs bitten off by a crocodile, does some smartass say "thank god you didn't die! he must have been watching over you. it's a miracle your still alive." please, i wouldn't trust god to babysit my kid for an hour. what's so great about god? or his alleged son.

The questions that plague man.

Too me, god equates to Ra, and Thor, and Zues, as well as Mother Nature, Father Time, etc. For generations, and even still today, man has associated things that he cannot explain to a god. And, now God is used as a crutch. Or an excuse to do some the things they have done (both countries with atrocities or individuals like my mom, with refusing to co-sign for a new car loan because God said "if you countersing for a note in the morning, you will loose your bed by night"........

this world does not seem to me to be designed by something with infinite wisdom. why would something infinitely wise put enormous rocks on collision courses with the world he loved so much that he gave his only begotten son to it and it's inhabitants. seems like he might not like his only begotten son very much, either.

precisely. every society has a creation myth. which usually gets expanded to include a set of rules regarding social behavior. what's so god damn special about the roman one?

To say that it is god's will that someone dies, or that god was calling him home, or that god moves in mysterious ways, is again saying "I can't explain why the hell someone has died or suffered a terrible injury or is inflicted with some horrid disease at birth, or whatever

except that it has the most money.

hey joe, do you find your self wandering and daydreaming looking at all the colorful, pretty designs and stained glass in your church. I assume your church is built with the same grandeur as every other catholic church.....someone said it above....damn if they didn't build some amazing structures. the crackers....during Communion.....are they wheat thins, ritz, water crackers? im not mocking.......im just not interested in the spiritual aspect as its a dead horse to me.

From Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani 2000: (hey, you asked for it...) Caput VI De Iis quae Ad Missae Celebrationem Requiruntur I. De Pane Et Vino Ad Eucharistiam Celebrandam 319. Exemplum Christi secuta, Ecclesia panem et vinum cum aqua ad celebrandum dominicum convivium semper adhibuit. 320. Panis ad Eucharistiam celebrandam debet esse mere triticeus, recenter confectus, et secundum antiquam Ecclesiae latinae traditionem, azymus. 321. Ratio signi postulat ut materia celebrationis eucharisticae revera ut cibus appareat. Expedit ergo ut panis eucharisticus, quamvis azymus et forma tradita confectus, tali modo efficiatur, ut sacerdos in Missa cum populo celebrata revera hostiam frangere possit in diversas partes, easque saltem aliquibus fidelibus distribuere. Parvae tamen hostiae minime excluduntur, quando numerus sacram Communionem sumentium aliaeque rationes pastorales id exigunt. Gestus autem fractionis panis, quo simpliciter Eucharistia designabatur tempore apostolico, apertius manifestabit vim et momentum signi unitatis omnium in uno pane, et caritatis ex eo quod unus panis inter fratres distribuitur. 322. Vinum pro celebratione eucharistica debet esse ex genimine vitis (cf. Lc 22, 18), naturale et merum, idest extraneis substantiis non admixtum. 323. Sedula cura caveatur ut panis et vinum ad Eucharistiam destinata perfecto statu onserventur; id est, caveatur ne vinum acescat, neve panis corrumpatur vel nimis durus fiat, ita ut difficulter frangi possit. 324. Si post consecrationem aut cum Communionem sumit, sacerdos animadvertat vinum non fuisse infusum, sed aquam, deposita aqua in aliquo vase, vinum cum aqua infundat in calicem, illud consecret, partem narrationis dicens quae ad consecrationem calicis pertinet, quin tamen teneatur iterum panem consecrare.

joe's message also leaves out 2000 years of history which might be difficult to fit into his rant. trace- re: the car loan, sometimes religion gives us an excuse not to do the things we don't want to do.

"if anyone wants to talk about what it's like to be catholic, let's do it! it's definately a strange religion. i don't know for sure why i try to stick to it but i do." that is such a pathetic lack of critical thought! maybe you keep doing things that leave you with a sense of security...whatever i have a friend that starves herself to fast during ramadan. even during finals and final reviews. it's beautiful in a way...and then she says that she never does the prayers. to uphold something so strictly while discarding the rest is so strange.

I don't think islam was meant to be practiced in northern climes. I once had a newly muslim coworker who had to daytime fast during a dark and dreary oregon february -- no problem. but ramadan scheduling, which is based on a lunar calendar, gradually shifts through the seasons. would have fucking sucked during the longest days of summer up here, north of the 45th parallel.

I realize that the thing about the car loan was an excuse. It gives them the excuse to stick their noses in every part of your life "Because GAWD COMMMANDSSS US TOOOO!" Over and over again, that is why my mom insults people, because "even a white lie is a sin"...... Yuck! The more I think about it, the more I dislike religion all together

actually, my church daydreams are usually more along the lines of "what if "god" is really just the same alien race that helped build the pyramids? woops.

Blargle and blah. What middle-class tripe. "why does God allow X?" "Does God exist?" "these are questions that have forever plagued mankind." fuck you. go skiing, or whatever it is you do for fun and profit. Let's rail about the horrors of Xtianity! Yeah! then lets stab ourselves with nails to see what it was REALLY like! this is great! gimme a breaking fuck. there's nothing special about "the roman one," and everyone except it's practitioners know that. which is the same thing you can say about every religion, ever. Is God the same as Ra, Thor (interesting that you chose Thor instead of Odin), mother nature, father time? Read "the masks of god." Joseph Campbell. I have a really hard time equating Yahweh with Mother nature. If you want to be, you can be god too. That's what some people say, at least. I think they're crackpots. Burn 'em when I find 'em. they stink like packing peanuts as they go up- there they go- in blue flame. and we're still here, asking and whining. fuckledyfuckityfuckfuck. I'm gonna go skiing. Right NOW.

Thou art god.

pokemon rule

Trace,your alive!

I'm sure we would have heard otherwise.

As far as I'm concerned, suicide should not be a right. your majority of people who are suicidal have no idea what they are doing because they are psychologically confused...and had they not been 'ill' at the time, I highly doubt they would want to brutally end their life. Ultimately- the freedoms of others impede upon the freedoms of everyone else. Bob wants the freedom to drink and drive...but Bob's freedom to drink and drive would take away Rachel's freedom to live. etc. I don't believe in murder ever being okay. Not suicide, not assisted suicide, not abortions. However, on the other side of things, consider this situation: A mother of three intentionally became pregnant...her husband left her and life took a turn for the worst. her doctor tells her that if she has the kid, she will die, and nobody will be able to take care of the kids if she is not around. Her only alternative is to abort the pregnancy.

Haters wanna hate lovers wanna love I don't even want none of the above I want to piss on you Yes I do, I'll piss on you I'll pee on you Said yo body, yo body Is a porta potty I'm a pee on cue I can use karate (use karate) I'm a pee on you DRIP DRIP DRIP Pee on you Pour it on you Piss on you Piss on you

farkas As far as I'm concerned, freedom of speech should not be a right. your majority of people who are speaking have no idea what they are doing because they are psychologically confused...and had they not been 'ill' at the time, I highly doubt they would say such completely fucking stupid things.

nice.

***** 5 stars to heather

"I don't believe in murder ever being okay. Not suicide, not assisted suicide, not abortions. " You forgot the death penalty. Didn't you?

Anti- I doubt it.

oooh, and what about all those bombs... should those be legal too? or do we need something to kill the baby-killers that badly? yay heather.

However, on the other side of things, consider this situation: you are dying a slow and painful death due to some illness with no cure. You are in constant pain, and being kept alive only by machines. You can't reach over and pull the plug yourself. You wish for the sweet release of death every moment of every pointless day. Your family and loved ones can't stand to see you this way. So the doctor gives you one too many CCs of painkillers one day, you fall asleep and never wake up. OMG murder/suicide!! OMG wrong!!! idiot. Some people just want the same rights for themselves that we afford to our cats and dogs. See?

Ok, so this is what I think of all this bull shit.. People are to judgmental. They don't want to look in the mirror and pick at every thing thats wrong with their lives. So they pick on the girls who have abortions. That's wrong. I will tell you guys, from experience!!! I'm 19. I have a pretty good job working for the government. But about one month of having this awesome job, I found out I was pregnant. I cried my self to sleep for weeks. (and still 8 months later still am) It was the hardest disicion I hae EVER had to make. And I feel for anyone who has to make this lose, lose situation desicion. I remember when my sister was 17, she got pregnent and my mother told us that if any of us had an abortion that she would dis-own us. So knowing this I couldn't even bring my self to tell any of my family. So not only did I have to make this huge decision, I had to make it all on my own. And I know that if I would have kept my baby I would lose my job, my mom and dad would lose all respect for me. And at the time I wasn't mentally, physically or mentally able to bring this child into this world. When I was thinking about what to do, I finally thought to my self. "I have to do what is best for this child, fuck me and my issues. I couldn't even think about what this would do to me. I had to think how am i going to raise this child? And if I put it up for adoption, I'll never see them again. And if I'm going to carry a child in me for 9 months, I am not about to just give them away to someone else! I know it's not the best thing to do. But when you have no support from any one, no help at all. What are you going to do. And to this day I still cry, I always wonder what he woould have look liked! (I sort of just had a feeling it was a boy, and I named him Aiden) I know that I have isses because of what I did, but when I think of him, I know I did what was best for him. Not me. So any one who is contiplating this, good luck with what ever YOU decide to do!

It's okay. You're right, we shouldn't judge what other people do, but unfortunately, we live in a cruel world. It was your choice and your the one that has to live with it. Nobody know's the pain that you have endured, so unless they have walked in your shoes, then they shouldn't judge, my thought anyway. I wish you the best and don't fret so much on what you did, it's over and you need to move on. You need to forgive yourself, really.

Thanks Dodi! You don't even know much that ment to me! Your a good person. It's nice to know that there are still some people in this world who actually care still. Thank-you! And just to let you know when a girl has an abortion, it's so hard. I could never EVER do it again! But I'll tell you something that is wrong with abortions. When I went to the hospital to do it. They have a journal there for every one to read and write in about how they were handling shit, and all that stuff. And I was reading some of them and there was this one girl who was having her forth abortion. Ok, now I think that is wrong. Once, ok people make bad mistakes. Myself, I think I would almost kill myself if I ever had to go through with another abortion. Well I wouldn't even have a second abortion, because your the one who is fucking up, and alot. Once really made me open my eyes. I have no symapthy for the girls who go for multiple abortions. For any girls who want to talk to someone who has experienced this, or just to talk about this stuff e-mail me at need_help411@hotmail.com

Your welcome. I know people who have had more than one and I still love them. Sometimes people don't have the support that they need and feel so alone, so whether it's right or wrong, they make the choice, that's best for them. My friend has been suicidal, cause she is having a hard time coping with the loss. I don't hold any hard feeling against her, cause she's such a special person, to me and everyone she meets. I know that God has forgiven her, so now, she needs to forgive herself. We all make mistakes in this life, as none of us are perfect, so please, next time you come across someone, who has had more than one, find it in your heart, to have compassion for this individual. We all need love, cause without it, there's nothing.

I hope you don't take this wrong, but you made a comment on not having sympathy for someone who has had more than one abortion. This has bothered me this morning, cause when you think about it, having one, is no different, than having more...... To me, it's all the same, cause a life was still taken.

Ya, it is the same I guess, but I don't know how someone could actually go through with how ever many times. I did it once, and there is not one day that goes by that I don't think about it. I can still hear his heart beat. And I have night mares all the time about crying babies. I even once had a dream that I went into labour, and went through it all, but when they said I was done, there was no baby. So one time, and I got some serious problems from doing it. Any more then one I think I would seriously go insane. I remember when I was at the clinic. They asked me if I was suicidal. I said no, because the way I look at it is, if I was suicidal, would I even bother coming here to do this!?! But if I had to do it again, I might as well do away with both of us at one time. At least we would be together. I am a baby killer, and I never ever want to have to go through the pain. After I had the abortion, I got a really bad infection. And I was out of town, and didn't have my car with me. And I couldn't even walk. I had to crawl to the bathroom. I thought I was going to die. Finally one of my co-workers (we were on a course in Calgary) called an ambulance for me, I was in tears. I was in the emergency for like 10 hours. And the Dr. Told me since I got such a bad infection, and left it for so long, that I might not be able to have children any more. So that's why I think multiple abortions isn't good. It can hurt you in the long run.

That's an awfully...odd...e-mail address to have, isn't it?

http://www.imnotsorry.net

that's fucked up.

I don't think the basic idea is fucked up. I think it may be fucked up that some women would *celebrate* an abortion, but I don't think its wrong to have a space to share what turned out to be a positive aspect of their lives. Why should asserting control over one's body always and ever time be mired in guilt, shame, regret, and despair? We need people to be open and honest. We need stories from people who can say confidently that they are not ashamed about the choice they made and who don't feel guilty. Lots of women regret the choice for the rest of their lives, but plenty of them do not. Let them have a place to tell their stories. Maybe other women won't feel so alone and ashamed then. I highly doubt this will suddenly make women SHOUT WITH GLEE at the thought of an abortion. I also thought their FAQ was very good. I'm not going to say anything else about this.

should it always be mired in guilt, shame, regret and despair? i don't know. but to celebarte it is sick. it is a grave act and should never be taken as anything but. asserting control over one's body. shit. i could assert control over my body and rape your cat. shameful. it is a choice that women are legally allowed to make, but that doesn't remove the fact that a large percentage of the population sees it as murdering a child. i'm sure there are a lot of positive aspects to murdering your children post-birth, too. a little food savings, child care savings, clothes, medical. but that's just fucking sick.

oh whatever. none of the stories i read were anything but stories about how these women overcame the guilt and came too see their choices as responsible and their experiences as not shameful. So why should the opinions of a large percentage of the population force the honest experiences of others into silence? you know there is a difference between asserting control over your body and violating another living creature and also between abortion, especially in the first term and murding a born child. You know that. Get off your moral high horse. You are NEVER going to have an abortion. You are NEVER going to know what it feels like. You are NEVER going to need to know that you are not alone. You are NEVER going to have to get over that kind of experience. That does not mean that you aren't entitled to an opintion, but who are you to judge women for speaking out and being open and for being there for women who might actually need to hear this stuff.

and really. I can't talk about this anymore. Abortion is horrible, it really, really is. But it needn't be something that women are ashamed of. And there is no shame in wanting to stand up to the rampant, anti-choice movement and tell them to fuck off.

Things like I'm Not Sorry are necessary to let people know that the stereotype of the girl going for an abortion, shaking and crying, fucked up for the rest of her life, morning the loss of the thing, living in grief and regret for the rest of her life, .....is a myth. Largely based on anti-choice groups trying to make abortion a bigger deal than it is, to guilt and scare us into submission. Abortions happen every day. Many, many of the women who have them are far from scarred by it. I belong to another discussion group that's for people who don't want kids. We get an abortion story about once a month. The stories usually include something along the lines of: "Not nearly as bad as i imagined" "Thank GOD that shit is over with" "Knowing I was pregnant, feeling it, was the worst thing I've ever felt. It was a nightmare. So glad it's over." "Then i gave the doctor and all the nurses a big hug...can't thank them enough" "Best day of my life, best decision I've ever made." "Had one 10 years ago, never regretted it. Not for a minute" Most say it was far less intrusive and physiologically damaging than going to the dentist. Yes, some will be fucked up for life. Many are not. The word must be spread.

Do you get a lot of shit for not wanting kids? It never ceases to amaze me what some people will say when they hear that someone doesn't want kids. It's like the santa clause myth for adults OH MY GOD THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT KIDS and then they will say anything to try to protect themselves from believing that it could actually be true. I want to be a mom someday. But that's because I know me and what I want. How could I possibly know if something as huge as that is right for anyone else? No matter how wonderful and glorious it is. I just don't get it. I tried the whole "i'm not having kids" with my parents. they were cool with it. my dad was kind of sad, but he said, "I'll just have to work on (insert brother's name)." It's just not a big deal.

I had an abortion when I was 17 & I've never regretted it. But it IS amazing how offended people get when they find out I don't want kids. It's more amazing that folks who barely know you are bold enough to even ASK why you don't have kids. First, they're shocked when I tell them I'm 44.(I still get carded at the liquor store on occasion, so I guess I really don't look my age. Which *I* say is because I don't have kids worring me into crow's feet & wrinkles!) Then their heads practically explode when I tell them I don't have kids. Total strangers I've barely spent 10 minutes with have offered me the name of their fertility specialist, assuming I must be having no luck at getting pregnant on my own. Women can be so narrow-minded sometimes... I figure it's a good thing I DON'T want to be a mother, since I'd never intentionally chose to be a single mother. At least I'm not bankrupting myself on donor sperm & IV treatments, like too many singletons my age are doing. Even women in their 50's are having babies now -- which I say is just plain SICK & SELFISH! There is no Inalienable Right To Give Birth. And all the anti-stem cell research/pro-lifers never seem to question what happens to all those extra embryos sitting in the freezers of all those fertility clinics. The fact is THEY GET DESTROYED -- but I don't see Shrub or Mel Gibson railing against that 'destruction of human life'. If raising a child is so imprtant to women, THEY SHOULD ADOPT -- & do it well before they hit the half-century mark. But unfortunately, we live in a culture that makes biological motherhood a woman's higest goal, no matter what the dangers or the cost. Even if I got married to a fabulous guy tomorrow, I still wouldn't want kids. In a post 9/11, 4-More-Years of Shrub America, having a baby is Totally Unthinkable to me. Besides, cats are hard enough to raise! - RC

"Most say it was far less intrusive and physiologically damaging than going to the dentist" killing a baby should have a little more impact than going to a dentist. killing a baby should not be the best day of your life. the problem isn't the choice. the problem is the pro-abortion groups removing the responsibility from the action. "Largely based on anti-choice groups trying to make abortion a bigger deal than it is" it is a big fucking deal. it is a choice that shouldn't be made casually. you kill something with a brain and eyes and a little beating heart, you should do it with a little forethought and it should have little more impact than having your teeth cleaned. that is shameful. it is as shameful as watching war footage with a twelver of michelob and cheering as the bombs fall. this attitude is one little shuffle step behind "i can't wait to have my first abortion."

some women do see it as an affliction, like plaque. nate, you may have had some sort of transcendental, shroom experience that leads you to believe there's a cosmically significant little buddha in that wad of snot, but i think, and many others think, that's more unrealistic than thinking it's only a wad of snot. is it because it's human dna in there, rather than possum dna or pony dna? i think that, when the society, any society, truly takes on the responsibility of caring for every born child, of seeing to it that all their needs are met, the society has no place in making that decision for any woman. you've seen gummo, dude. couple dozen more abortion clinics would have done all of 'em a favor.

not when, until. and actually, i still don't think a woman should be forced to bear a child for nine months and give birth to it. even if it is a perfect society and a guaranteed awesome life. frankly, the thought of giving birth and the whole labor experience terrifies me. were i to discover that i'm pregnant, i would definitely take the easy way out at the first opportunity.

As long as it's not the woman's sole method of birth control (barring medical justification) I'm totally cool with abortion. I'd probably like to have a kid some day... maybe. But I think I can understand seeing a fetus as a parasite. I wouldn't want one in me.

Oh my God!! Seeing a fetus as a parasite! That's the sickest thing I have ever heard and you should be ashamed of yourself!!!!!!!!! Giving birth was the best thing I ever did and I honestly think, there's a reason why you don't have kids and that's because you don't deserve one. God works in mysterious ways and thank God he hasn't granted you one......THANK GOD!!

dodi telling people what they deserve god seems to have granted you a self-righteous, callous heart and a practically thoughtless tongue. congratulations.

FUCK YOU BITCH!!!!

Hmmmmmmmmmm, what happened to your fucking "Jizzmop?" If you don't like me and what I have to say, then just don't respond back. Please, just go have a baby and shut the Fuck up!

i'm not talking about the choice. i'm talking about the mariginalization of the action. if you are going to make a choice, you should understand the gravity of your decision. because abortion is not like hawking a loogie, no matter how much you want to believe a fetus is a wad of snot.

fuck, this is the fucking michael moore argument in 911. you'd agree with me if i said "war in iraq may or may not be wrong, but the american people need to see the true effect of war before they authorize it."

Well, yeah. Because people die in war. Whether or not a person dies in an abortion is a major part of the debate. Beyond that, what's the true effect of abortion? I'm on the fence in terms of whether an abortion should be a Big Deal. Certainly women shouldn't be made to feel guilty for their choice, but I'm not sure if I like the idea of a drive-through abortion.

Oh yeah, you did mention the importance of many people believing that a fetus is a person, even if I don't. Yeah, I still don't know.

i don't think whether or not a person dies in an abortion is a major part of the debate. there is a life and then there isn't. because it is a young human doesn't make it any less human. therein lies my issue with the pro-choice desensitisation campaign.

Well, you say it's human like that's indisputable, but it is disputable. I mean, when a woman gets a breast reduction, she's getting rid of a part of her that is human, and no one is up in arms about that. Every time you take out an appendix, you are taking out something that God put in. So should we let people with appendicitis die? Some folks think so. You see, I think that if you are going to go the route of the "it has eyes and limbs and a heart" route, then you need to go all the way. You have to be renounce the consumption of all flesh, becauce to just draw the line at humans is pretty ridiculous. All animals have hearts. Why should the beating heart of a Canada Goose be worth less than that of a six-week old fetus? Yup, those leather boots are quite swanky, but a heart had to stop so you could wear them. Some folks may think that's being extreme, but when you realize you are talking about something that at the stage of development, is virtually indistinguishable from any other animal fetus, I have a real hard time considering that the equivalent of even a later-term fetus, much less a baby or grown human. Hell, every time you ejaculate, there's millions of chances for a human crusting up inside that sock right there. How is that any different? How is it any different every time a woman has a period? Oh no, the young human's being super-absorbed into the maxipad! Regardless of how you feel about it nate, it will never be your decision to make. so maybe you could be served by taking a listen to people who actually go through with it and how they felt about it, and not just the christian anti-choice sob story aspect. of the women I've known who've had abortions, not one regretted it. I regard them as far more responsible than this fellow I just worked with who is 20 and on his second kid with a second woman.

But I don't think everyone agrees with that.

(in response to nate, of course.)

1) you don't see the difference between breast reduction and killing a person? 2) you don't see the difference between killing and animal and killing a person? i'm not talking about the choice, here, now. i'm talking about making sure people understand the choice they are making. that it is a big choice to make. that it should not be taken lightly. you can justify slavery by saying the enslaved aren't human. this is your argument. if you leave a newborn in the woods it will die without its mother. therefore, it is not yet human. there is no question that when human sperm hits human egg and cell division begins you have a human. to say otherwise it is a ridiculous buy in to the cult of radical feminism. if it isn't human, what is it? is it some subform that goes into a crysallis and somehow metamorphisizes into a human child during the second trimester? where is the point where it becomes a human child? at birth? what if it is premature? what if it is late-term? then is it a human child invitro? and if it really is that you just believe in human sapience as some side effect of a biochemical reaction, then what is the issue with killing anyone at any time? wouldn't extreme eugenics be better for society? shouldn't we kill the poor instead of letting them burden us? shouldn't we kill all criminals, all devients, all slackers and losers and the mentally ill and the mentally retarded and anyone who will be laid up and away from work for more than a few days due to gallstones or a broken arm?

If you are in the woods without water for four days, you will probably die, Nate. Does that make you not human? All of this hinges on when we call a being "human." A simple solution is "it's human when it can survive outside the mother with help from other humans." The point in development when that happens is dependent on technology. And the difference between animals and humans is one of degrees and sentimental attachment. Koko the gorilla has displayed many human like behaviors and intelligence. (degrees of "humanness") If you tried to hurt my cat, I'd rip your throat out. (sentimental attachment) So, to say that the definition of when something, especially a fetus, is "human" is byond argument is stupid. And equating abortion arguments to slavery arguments is also stupid. You're ignoring many factors, such as autonomy, dignity, self awareness, self determination, sentience, etc. A fetus has none of these. An adult human most likely has all of them. "there is no question that when human sperm hits human egg and cell division begins you have a human." Wrong. You could have an anencephalic lump. You could have a miscarried pregnancy. Are you saying every pregnancy is successful? What you definately have is a potential human. That's not radical feminism. That's fact. "is it some subform that goes into a crysallis and somehow metamorphisizes into a human child during the second trimester?" Yeah, that's pretty close. The point where it "metamorphisizes" is called "viability." You're wallowing in an existential fallacy here, Nate. Let me ask you: how many hairs must I pluck from a man's head before they become bald? When do they magically "metamorphisize" into a bald man? Are you just playing devil's advocate here, or do you really buy into this absolutist crap?

"and if it really is that you just believe in human sapience as some side effect of a biochemical reaction, then what is the issue with killing anyone at any time?" A simple question that requires a complex answer. I'll take a feeble stab. In my opinion, a good society should try to maximize the following three factors: 1) Social complexity 2) Social stability 3) Individual fulfillment Often these three can be in conflict, like 1 and 2. "wouldn't extreme eugenics be better for society? shouldn't we kill the poor instead of letting them burden us?" This would violate all three of the goals above. Arbitrarily killing off segments of the population would reduce complexity, cause long and short term instability, and definately violate individual fulillment. Any similar culling of the population would also be detrimental to the whole for the same reasons.

no, tiggy. i believe in the soul.

i think the defining point is when the life becomes wanted by it's mother. obviously, it's alive from conception forward so trying to pinpoint some magical moment beyond conception is political wankery. if the mother wants to have the child, it's a child. if she doesn't, it's a curable medical condition.

nate, if you believe in the soul, as in an eternal consciousness that moves from vessel to vessel, well, there'll always be another vessel.

I recently read Friday by Robert A. Heinlein. Friday is a woman who was genetically engineered to be in many aspects super-human. She's better at running, jumping, thinking, killing, and fucking than any natural human alive. She can have children like any woman. So-called artificial persons are not considered humans by most of the world. She pretends to be human and blends in very well for the most part, but she never feels like she belongs. Over the course of the story, she comes to realize that it doesn't matter whether she was grown in a real womb or an artificial one. What is a human? Is a lab-grown person a human? When does one become human? Is a human fetus a human being? Should fetuses have rights? Who would win the fetus vote? I don't know, man. I don't know. It's a matter of beliefs. It's unresolvable.

"2) you don't see the difference between killing and animal and killing a person?" No, i don't. Please explain how egg + sperm= PRECIOUS LIFE, but 5 year old cow = tasy food. --------- "shouldn't we kill the poor instead of letting them burden us?" I can't recal the last time a poor person took up residence in my abdomen, surviving off of my body's nutrients. I'll let you know when it happens. ------------ Until the thing can live outside of a body, it is a parasite. Alive, a life, but a parasite. Do we mourn the loss of a tapeworm? A cancer lump? A tick?

Kazu- I don't get much shit about not wanting kids, but i also refuse to take shit about it anymore either. I look much younger than i am, so people don't assume I've hit marriage/birthing age yet. But when they find out.... RC said it all, really. Total strangers will come right out and ask all about your sex life, assume you're infertile, and start giving you advice. And then when you explain the situation, they just think you're insane. Or the most selfish person on earth, that's a popular idea as well. Then they get all offened, like I've insulted their whole reason for being. They DEMAND explinations. None of which will be good enough. Some women will risk death to get pregnant, so I'm a traitor or something. Anything less is not womanly! You'll never truly be an adult! You'll never truly be a woman! You'll die old and alone! Having kids is the only reason to live! You'll regret it the second you hit 35! So very rude. I'm USED to this. Isn't that sad?? Sometimes it's like they really can't imagine you missing out on "the joy" of it all, and that's great to see people so into their kids. That's fine, i can forgive their rudeness. They just want to share their happiness. But most of the time it sounds more like they want ME to suffer as they have. Like they didn't know that child bearing is a choice, and now they realize that I'll never have to put up with all the infant/toddler bullshit, let alone the teen hell years, and they think it's not fair. I truly believe that. Most people don't even think about it, they really don't understand that you can decide NOT to have kids. They just think it's what you HAVE to do. Getting rid of this idea would solve many of the worlds problems. It annoys me, but never fails to amuse as well. They say the craziest things! You're right, it is like Santa myth for adults. My family is cool, they respect and understand what i want out of life. Out of 4 siblings, my mom was the only one to have children. So I have no cousins, but three aunt/uncle sets that are pushing 60 years old but look about 35. The most happy and fulfilled people I know.

my point

my peepee tickles!

A PARASITE!!!!!!!!! Man, you people have no clue...........

par·a·site (noun) 1. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

Y'know Dodi, every time a female has sex with someone, she isn't inviting a fetus into her uterus. YOU may consider pregnancy a wonderful gift no matter what. But for someone who's been raped, it's WORSE than a parasite -- it's one more injustice on top of an already grevious injury that continues to hurt for a long, long time. NO WOMAN OR GIRL SHOULD EVER BE FORCED TO GIVE BIRTH TO A CHILD CONCEIVED FROM RAPE. That alone is a valid justification for abortion to remain safe & legal. If God were doing such a bang-up job of running things, rape would NEVER lead to conception. But maybe God doesn't micro-manage our lives the way some of us would like to think. Maybe conception really ISN'T some precious, pre-ordained event -- maybe it's just the result of biological functions that God created & allows to operate on earth without really meddling in them Himself. Maybe pregnancy is a lot like tornadoes -- only God can stop a tornado from happening, yet He doesn't. So when a home is turned into toothpicks & the family inside it dies a horrible death, do we get to blame God for that? He could have stopped it -- but He didn't. God allows human life to be destroyed at random EVERY SINGLE DAY! And I don't consider myself any more of a 'murderer' than God is. If you want to condemn me for having an abortion, that's your problem. And saying I don't 'deserve' to have kids is a moot point -- I don't want them. If God wants to condemn me for my abortion (& I don't believe He does) then He's a lousy god who wasn't worth believing in from jump. And when I finally meet Him face-to-face, He's gonna have some s'plainin' to do. - RC

Please, God has nothing to do with this, so leave him out of it. Your the one who spread your legs (maybe not by choice, if it really was a rape) and did the deed, so it was your doing, not God's. I hate when people blame others for their mistakes. It really amazes me..... No honey, your the one who will do the s'plainin' trust me.

By the way, there's lots of families who can't have kids and want one, so maybe you should of had the baby and gave it to a loving family. Even it was a rape, an innocent baby was conceived and it didn't asked to be destroyed. It was your choice and you have to live with that and I know, that later in life, you will regret it, whether you want to admit it or not. It's called denial.........

My husband and I got pregnant before we got married and made the choice to be a family. My son didn't asked to be born, but we gave him the opportunity to live and he's thriving quite nicely.

Abortion=Selfish

I disagree Dodi. Although on many levels I tend to agree with Nate on this concept, though I do not believe in making that choice for other women, and therefore vote pro choice always..... I have been a victim of rape....while I was pregnant. I thank God every day that I was pregnant at the time and did not conceive this evil man's spawn. I did not spread my legs in this rape, but they were shoved apart, pinned down, and I was unable to physically close them against this man's physical force. I DO NOT believe that rape or incest victims should EVER be made to carry that child. It was not a child of their own choice or their own making. To believe that a rape victim is physically capable of carrying that child without risk to their own lives is naive. If I were to be raped again tomorrow and became pregnant, and tried even attempted to carry this child to the second trimester I WOULD DIE. It's proven. Not every woman is capable of carrying successful pregnancies. To assume that they can because they are women is stupid and naive. There are those who can. But in my family there are more that cannot than can. The only one in my family who has successful pregnancies is the one that abuses her children. I guess you would say that I personally (whatever anyone elses arguments may be, cuz I don't believe in judging them) that I believe in the right of choice, to protect those who are victims of rape, of incest, who's health isn't sufficient. I also know from experience that this is NOT an easy decision for a woman to make. It's not something that can be answered by a simple (oh, I don't want it I'll just get an abortion) in most cases. It wasn't for me. I regret my abortion in the fact that a child's life was lost, but I also know that if I tried to carry it, my children now wouldn't have a mother. Afterward I felt so hollow and empty. It wasn't the physical pain I suffered from, that was nothing. But there is a lot of emotional turns in the whole mental process. I am not trying to enter a debate here on whether or not life begins at what stage. I have plenty of things I could say, but I really don't feel like arguing this. I don't like arguing this. The emotions are too raw for me. But I will jump in and speak my mind when victims are being held accountable for things outside of their control, ie the rape issue.

I do like your logic eri and I'm sorry this happened to you.

I still don't like a fetus being called a "parasite"

fair enough. i'll call you one, then. just for fun.

whatever....

I feel that every time you lay down with someone, your taking a risk. If you get pregnant, then it's your own fault, not the babies. I think it's pretty stupid, to go get an abortion, just cause you don't want to be bothered. I've heard way too many women say this and it makes me want to puke. wisper, I agree with the growing old bit. It's true, you will regret it, just you wait and see. Who's going to wipe your ass when you shit in your Depends? Who's going to take care of you when you can't walk.....some creepy nursing home nurse, who might take advantage of that situation. Sorry, I would rather have my children take care of me and so they will........

Plus, I can't believe your comparing a human fetus to a tapeworm or a tick!!!!! OH MY GOD!!!!!

uhm... "Who's going to wipe your ass when you shit in your Depends? Who's going to take care of you when you can't walk..." My RRSP, my family and friends. And some trained professionals. I dunno, Dodi, who will take care of YOU? You assume that your children will, but this is often not the case. What guarantee is there that your kid will give a shit about you when you're old? This is a fairytale idea. Think of all the nursing homes in all the world overflowing with old parents left there to rot. Where are THEIR children? Do tell. And having a kid just to ensure they'll take up the burden of wiping my elderly ass is just sad. I'd want better for them than that. I would much rather die alone than be a burden on someone i love. I'd rather regret not having children than regret having them. And if i go insane and change my mind, i can easily go out and get one. But on the other hand, perhaps you will regret having your child one day, and you'll be stuck with it for life. Bummer

no regrets here......

....yet

never...:)

same here.

good for you.

nice

One thing that is bothering me here is the idea that a woman should have children. I run into this in my fathers side of the family. I mean, I have kids, so I don't get crap, just asked to argue with the other mothers in the family. I have aunt who doesn't want kids.......guess what people, not wanting kids is just as much your right as having kids. It is a womans decision to make, and in this case she and her husband completely agree that they don't want children, so I don't see the problem. Any woman can fuck get preggers and push out a baby, but that doesn't make them a good parent. Parenting is a very big responsibility, that demands a lot of sacrifices throught your entire life. If you want to be a good parent, and lets face it the children need good parents, then you are taking on a lot in your life that doesn't just go away when they grow up and leave home. Knowing that this is a lifelong responsibility and taking that into serious consideration before you concider procreating is imperative. I mean, what if it is the wrong thing for you, and you aren't a good parent? Not everyone was meant for parenting after all. I have a high level of respect for people who don't want to have children because they have obviously thought this through. Someone who doesn't want to be a parent may not be a good parent, because they already KNOW this is not what they want. If you don't want children, don't have children. There is NOTHING wrong with that decision. It's like people who go to Starbucks to read a book and have a cup of java and relax. They don't want other kids tugging on their arm and asking for a bite of their cookie. They want to be left in peace to read and relax. Guess what....that's their RIGHT too. Keep your kids under control. Let people who don't want kids bothering them be left alone. Same thing. Don't want kids, don't have to have em. Let's make sure that's clear. My children are a gift. They are a gift because I WANT THEM.

Dodi,you allways talk sence,I think Heather is a bitch.

eri,I miss not haveing kids,but only about 10%...I wanted money more than enything,and I got it,I dont think that makes me a bad person,I got what I wanted...I went for it,and I got it,of course you allways pay a price.There is a price for every thing.

So Dodi -- in your narrow little mind, being raped at 17 is the same as 'spreading my legs', i.e. voluntary sex? Anyone with so little compassion that they would force a girl who's been raped to bive birth to her rapist's child Doesn't Deserve To Be A Parent! I was Raped. I got pregnant from that rape. I had an abortion to get that bastard's disgusting spawn OUT of my body. And I will NOT aoplogize for it to ANYONE. - RC

RC,much as I would like to post,I dont think I can,most Sorabjis regard you as a troll,if your name is legion,because you many,then you have a problem,but much as the Sorabjis will hate me for this,I advise you,keep posting.v and Dodi are still regarded as trolls,but we dont worry too much about that,I advise you do the same,dont give up.RC,You must admit,this inbred place needs a kick up the ass.

I'm not narrowed minded. Have a great eve'

Hey V!

...and Hey Dodi to you too!!!!! :):):)

Boy, that was quick!!!! :)

...well in may by 4 a.m. in London,but v dont sleep!

It's 8:50 here and I'm still wide awake, but it's still early. I don't go to bed till 1:00 am, so I have a ways to go. I'm sorry your not sleeping tonight, bummer.......:(

...hot dam,v allways think you are on east coast,but you must be on west coast,extra 4 hours!!!...is now (look at watch)4.10 a.m. London time!

yeppers.....west coast for sure.:)

Why did you think east coast?

...dont know...I think of you as a "native New Yorker"...fast,smart,...and I also like the song :)

v.v., you really have no clue. RC is the furthest thing from a troll. She is one of the sorabji originals. You will find her postings in the oldest of threads. She is wise, and very much respected by all. A troll accusing others of being trolls.... How quaint!

This isn't about who is regarded as a 'troll' & who isn't. It's about confronting people who think rape victims who have the fucked-up luck of getting impregnated by their rapist don't have every moral right to get an abortion. If having willingly 'spread your legs' is the line in the sand, then being raped is another country on the other side of that border. And the same rules don't apply -- which underscores the fallacy of the Pro-Life-No-Matter-What position. The pro-lifers want to believe that abortion is always about some selfish, irresponsible female not using protection the way she should, so they want to 'punish' her by making her give birth to an unwanted child, no matter what her life is like at the time. The future of her unborn child is of greater moral value than her present life in their eyes, no matter how that child was conceived -- which proves their position is all about Punishing The Woman. And they conveniently ignore the fact that many poor, married women who already have children choose to have abortions because they simply can't afford another mouth to feed. And married or single, not every sex act is by choice -- HOW a woman ended up pregnant MATTERS in this debate. The fact that Dodi got knocked up before she was married -- no doubt because she was being careless about birth control (which I've NEVER been) -- doesn't negate the fact that *I* got knocked up during sex that was NOT consensual. She doesn't deserve a medal for having her unplanned baby & I don't deserve condemnation for aborting mine. And Dodi -- if you don't want to bring God into it, then where exactly does your 'morality' come from? Did it just fall from a tree into your lap? Because if your so-called 'morality' doesn't come from some Higher Power that you feel will hold you -- & each of us -- accountable for our actions, then your moral code carries no more weight than anyone else's -- ESP. not those who are pro-choice. If it's all about being a god unto yourself in terms of morality, yours is no more meaningful than anyone else's. But I'm proud that MY moral code doesn't permit me to force childbirth on some girl or woman I know knothing about. I was 17 & a virgin, so I wasn't on The Pill or anything yet. I was raped during the 1st week of Aug. of 1978. I was in a foreign country (France) for the summer, on my first trip abroad, as a graduation present. I was scheduled to return to NY in less than 2 weeks, then going off to college 2 weeks after that. My French was decent, but I didn't know who to call or what the hell to do. I went with my friends to the French police & filed report, but I knew nothing would come it it -- I was about to leave the freakin' country! I found out I was pregnant in Oct. of my 1st semester of college. I went to University Health Services & had an abortion, then got on The Pill & stayed on it until I turned 37. And the awful thing was, none of the people I talked to at UHS EVER asked me if the sex I'd had was consensual --I had to be brave enough to tell them "I was raped -- make sure that's in my chart." Which made me certain that there are thousands of abortions that happen because a female was raped -- but did anybody care enough to ask her that? I didn't tell my parents about my abortion until almost 15 years after the fact, for fear of being condemned. But they were totally loving & supportive when I did finally tell them -- their greatest pain came from the fact that I'd been too afraid to come to them when it 1st happened. And I won't stand by & let ANYONE tell me I committed murder or was not completely justified in aborting a pregnancy that was the result of a goddamn RAPE! NOTHING about my being pregnant was the result of choices I had made. Maybe Dodi would have dropped out of college to bare her rapist's child -- but I sure as hell didn't feel that was a sane or justifiable choice for me. And I CERTAINLY didn't owe that fetus ANYTHING! It shouldn't have been in me in the 1st place. So FUCK YOU VERY MUCH, DODI -- & you have a nice evening too. - RC

See, RC, this is why you need to stay around here. You say things so much better than I possibly could. Ignore V. he's a persistent under-bridge dweller.

RC, I agree with you 100%. I ended up working for some sick fuck who liked pregnant women cuz that meant he couldn't knock them up, since they were already knocked up, and ended up pinned to the wall of the storage room. It is a horrifying experience and I can guarantee you if I wound up pregnant by that mother fucker I would not have kept that baby. Never think that there is a reason you should apologize for your decision. You did nothing wrong. Even a majority of Christian Pro Life groups support your decision. I think they call them "hard luck" cases, but nonetheless, it is still concidered acceptable in the eyes of the majority of churches. There is no need to defend yourself to anyone ever. Besides, this again is not a decision that is taken lightly. It may be an easy decision to make in some cases, but there is still a lot of emotions, and it is not an easy thing to deal with. What I would do in a situation is irrelevant to the entire issue. That is my decision to make, and I don't believe in taking that right away. We cannot judge what they do. We aren't walking in their shoes. So even though I don't personally believe in abortion in many circumstances, I WILL NOT make that decision for any other woman. It is not an easy thing to have to face. V-NO ONE here regards RC as a troll. Your statement is ignorant and naive. She does not need your encouragement to fight against us since we have all been her friends for many years. You're just digging yourself into a deeper hole. I mean, do you really TRY to make yourself look like an ass, or do you just not think?

I honestly feel sorry for you, dodi. you got married, not because you wanted to, but because you felt you had to. You haven't worked for, what was it? 15 years? you think and behave as though you've been living under a rock for the greater part of your life. you judge people for their actions while at the same time holding yourself up as superior, and probably don't even realize it. you yourself have said that you're bored, that you think about going back to work but are afraid, that you shop shop shop all day long. this is the beginning of a bad situation. what are you doing with your life? RC, eri, I'm so very sorry you both had to go through that. I wish more women were able to come through it with the strength and honesty that you two did.

RC rocks.

yes. yes she does. i remember when sem first told me about her, (before I even started reading here) this wise woman who called him podling.

hee!

"Who's the Boss is not a food!"

Sem, a little part of me just got very excited inside. You may have just made my night. "Let's go, overcoming adversity!"

i'm on vacation. today, while battling laundryzilla, i watched jerry springer and maury povich and the black judge dude and the local soap opera maven (she's been the soap opera maven for, like, going on 25 years, back when i used to watch luke and laura on middle school summer break, she was the local soap maven). the get out of debt commercials, the sue the shit out of your oppressor commercials, the get a free geriatric scooter out of medicare commercials, the payday loan commercials. i watched the televised culture of the stay at homes, the unemployed, the wastrels, the bleating sheep, the endarkened. do not outlaw abortion.

i wish i could better manage my usage of the possesive "its" and the contraction "it's". i know the difference, but my fingers are on autopilot. twice in this thread, i bungled it.

possessive. ok, g'night.

Thanks to all you lovely little podlings (esp. Sem) for all your support! The saddest thing about my experience was that even after all his time, I hardly ever talk about it. Because there are so many Dodis in the world -- & even some people I know & like, like Nate -- who are so quick to attack any woman who has had an abortion, it makes me hesitant to tell my story. And because so many people think in the back of their minds "Oh, she must have been asking for it" when a woman gets raped. But I'm glad I did get to tell my story here. - RC