| THIS IS A READ-ONLY ARCHIVE FROM THE SORABJI.COM MESSAGE BOARDS (1995-2016). |
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http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/DailyNews/bush_abortionrights010122.html When will women's wombs stop being the currency of government? |
resisting at this time... tick tick tick tick tick tick |
i should dig up "kill the president" again and post it. |
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Anyway...just wait for Ashcroft. If Bush is the uniter, what the hell is that ideologue gonna do, eh? It's time to get off our petards and fight! |
After I pay my taxes, I'm making a donation to NARAL. See, Bushie? You've made a difference already! |
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this NOW view that anti-abortion = anti-woman is fucking insane and has to stop. it is exactly the kind of doublespeak that prevents logical discussion of the issue. are pro-choice people babyhaters? no. while not a majority, a good portion of this country feels that abortion is murder. tax money should not be spent on abortion. keep it legal, and let the woman decide. that's fine. but she should also decide how she's going to pay for it. goddamnit. not only is my dope illegal, it's expensive. WHAT HAS THE GOVERNMENT DONE FOR ME LATELY? |
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For Bush to be deciding on the moral policies of overseas aid organisations with the big stick of funding is a total abhorrence. Women will die in the dirt with a stick between their legs because of him. |
hrm. Deal. No, not deal. Fuck that. How many great, wonderful, incredible people haven't blossomed until later in life? |
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and no, it will not bring us down. it is the natural order of things -- if your population exceeds the carrying capacity of your region, you die. and if the populous of said starving nations is too ignorant to keep their population down, mother nature takes the upperhand. The US government is supposed to keep the US money making machine well oiled. no more, no less. do your own thing, and if you end up bleeding in the dust with a stick in your cunt, YOU FUCKED YOURSELF UP, HONEY. that's a direct quote from the constitution. somewhere the last half of that has been lost. we are not the handout nation. suck it up, buttercup. |
The World is shrinking, Natey Matey. Pull your head out of your butt and quit the protectionist crap. Damn, it's fun being up on my high horse. Giddy up boy. |
support the meme, not the individual. mother nature is an evil bitch, but she's our evil bitch. |
Listen to the rich white American man talking about the natural order... Nate, you have no fucking perspective. Start from nothing in Africa and see how far you get. If you're so fond of the natural order, leave your white bread comfy house in the California hills and eat the bark off of trees for a week! Nothing pisses me off more than well off white breads who have had biweekly latte enemas all of their lives spout off about the "natural order." You should know better, Nate, especially since you work with technology. The whole point of technology is to CHANGE the natural order, to alter the world so that it's more to our liking. What's wrong with doing that to economic conditions of third world nations so that their citizens can have a chance for a better life? And only a fool thinks that our lives and the choices we make are completely up to us as individuals. Only a complete idiot thinks that someone's successes and failures are made in a vaccuum. Judging by your last post, it looks like you qualify as both, Nate old boy... |
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"support the meme, not the individual" i'm clearly not talking about the individual, antigone. familiar with the concept of a meme? isn't it in the glossary of your liberal handbook of arguement? aren't you a white bread, antigone? |
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is war responsible management of reproduction, also? there is nothing high-tech or expensive about not getting pregnant. aren't you the same liberals who argue that GMOs are evil? we could feed the hungry, but it's more important to kill the babies. i'm sorry. it's not killing babies. it's a woman's right to choose. keep the government out of our wombs! unless, of course, we need the government to fund the vacuum cleaner. |
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social forces (and hard work of my ancestors) that got me to my good starting place in life. And the name of my sole proprietorship is infinimeme.com and I'm addicted to reading Douglas Hofstadter. :-) So I know that you can't support the meme without supporting the individual. Memes could not evolve effectively without sentient, self aware minds to carry, mutate, and propagate them. And, Nature is neither good nor evil, it's just a force. It's a highly complex force that we humans constantly try to stuff into our limited, uncomprehending little minds. Just because western science has been fixated on competition as the primary force of evolution doesn't make it absolute truth. If Darwin had possesed knowledge of one of the greatest examples of symbiosis in nature, the billion year old cooperation between every cell in our bodies and mitochondria, would he have made competition the central theme of his theory? Maybe not. Nature is not ruled by "survival of the fittest," Nate old boy, so why should we? |
nate, i am really hoping that this was designed to say something other than what it says. if not, my respect for your thoughts had changed considerably. "And only a fool thinks that our lives and the choices we make are completely up to us as individuals." i think they [our choices] are [up to us]. that's all. |
WHAT HAS THE GOVERNMENT DONE FOR ME LATELY? wooo oooohh oooh yeah. Sorry got sucked into the AMA that showed on tv last night, and she got that big award thing, and they showed all her clips, and when I read that the chorus to what have you done for me lately just popped right out. eek. |
i don't believe that charity belongs within the bounds of governmental responsibility. charity belongs in the hearts of the citizen, and should be funded directly by the citizen. our capitalist society exists as the richest nation on Earth. Our poorest people live better than 85% of the rest of the world. As a social program, it's worked better than anything else anyone has tried. socialism doesn't seem to work. communism doesn't seem to work. facism shit. arguably, the average quality of life here is better than any other, ever. who'll you'll argue this with is not me, it's the whole tax paying public. if the funding for abortions in africa is needed, then it should be funded by the people who think this is valuable. there are a whole mess of people in this country who feel that abortion is horrible murder. some of them are even pro-choice. |
the people who are voted into position [or at least not removed from their positions by the rest of the population] do what they think is best based on their beliefs my imagined government would not be the janitor of some 'thing' [that i am also part of] producing abstract representations of value. please tell me that there's more to it than that. |
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majority of the American people supported, the Bush White House would have to go begging to corporations for money! Wait a sec... |
'it' [the government] is not an it....it's people. i personally do not want to be responsible for all those things like roads, education, research..... |
It spends them on guns & biochemical weapons & creating wars abroad to protect corporate interests. If it's all abt No Foreign Aide, Nate/then let Bush start with dropping the funding we give to Israel. Let him shut down the IMF/which is no better than a global loan-sharking operation. And eliminate the price-supports for the sugar industry here in FL/which borders on modern-day slave-trading. It amazes me how affluent Whiteboys don't *really* care who gets an abortion/as long as SHE can afford to pay for it. But offer the same choices to some poor black or brown or yellow woman who has more children already than she can feed & clothe & house/& suddenly abortion is the #1 crime on the planet. You don't give a shit abt poor children, Nate. So YOU shd SUPPORT the laws & funding that make abortion available to women who don't need to have another kid. Bush wants to take away the whole shebang -- no abortions/no condoms/no b.c. pills -- no U.S. $$ to fund PREVENTING pregnancies abroad/much less terminating them. But right here in the ol' U.S. of A. the gov't. ends up paying for all those unplanned children/ thru WIC & welfare in their early years/& crime & drugs & the cost of incarceration when they get older. Considering that you'd just as soon gather up anyone earning less than 50k a year & shoot them/you shd be the #1 supporter of abortion rights, Nate. |
Abortion is a woman's right, I agree with that. The US has the responsibility of protecting the American Woman's right to decide if they keep the baby or kill it. But, what the hell are we doing sending money to foreign countries? Who the hell are we? The red cross? United Way? We have kids suffering from starvation and lack of decent schools, but we have extra cash laying around to send to other countries to help fund abortions? I can go for sending condoms so their country does not become so over populated they have to send immagrants here because there is not enough food to feed them all at home, but hell they are .50 each verses $300.00 (i think that is what joy asked me for after she killed my baby). If we have all this extra fucking money laying around so we can fund other country's abortions, maybe we could put it to better use, like, oh I don't know, the energy crisis we are in now? Come on people, get your heads out of your asses. They come here enough as it is for free health care and well fare checks funded by the working american, do we really need to send money to them? Do you think for a minute most of these countries we send aid to would send us a red penny if we needed it? Hell no. As it should be. By the way, nature is survival of the fittest. What the hell was that Antigone? You know what is going to be next? We are going to have to send doctors over there to make sure it is being done with proper sterilization, and that the dead babies are disposed of properly, with proper medical facilities, and counselling, where will it end? IT SHOULD BE HERE AND NOW! |
Give me a break. |
i had no idea that you were native american, trace "but hell they are .50 each verses $300.00 (i think that is what joy asked me for after she killed my baby). If we have all this extra fucking money laying around so we can fund other country's abortions, maybe we could put it to better use, like, oh I don't know, the energy crisis we are in now?" what is an energy crisis? are you saying that funds should go to keep americans in cheap and abundant energy consumption instead of some type of goodwill effort toward other people? "Come on people, get your heads out of your asses. They come here enough as it is for free health care and well fare checks funded by the working american, do we really need to send money to them?" who are you talking about? count your blessings trace. |
Let some organization that people donate to send money to foreign countries. Leave my hard earned tax money out of it. What energy crisis? I pay my taxes to help protect our energy interests, only to see my gas bill increase by 400% in a year, Rolling black outs in California, and Auto Fuel go up 100% in a year. Yes. I am Native American. I was born in America. That makes me Native American. There are no such things as African-Americans, German-Americans, Irish-Americans, etc. You are either born in America or Africa, or are Nationized by becomeing citizen of the US, thus makeing you American. Are there any African-English? Mexican-Russians? Cuban-Scottish???? Hell no. |
what is it about living in the US that makes someone so 'worthy'? how can you consider someone unworthy of the same privileges that you are afforded just because they were born in a different part of the world? it is very probable that SOMEONE in your not so distant past was NOT born in america. |
This may sound elitest, and I am not some friggin nazi here, but I am sick of all the whining and bitching and moaning about the poor and the opperession of the third world countries. I realize they are starving, and sick. I have a heart. I do have sympathy for them. But we, as a nation, cannot go around with our heart bleeding every time some nation goes bad. Who helped us out durring the depression? No one. We pulled ourselves out of that mess. What about the "great dust bowl" in Oklahoma. Who helped us then? "You can give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day, teach the man to fish, and he will eat for life". Dont send them abortion money. Teach them birth control. If they have a huge problem with rapist getting women pregnant, then they need to concentrate on law enforcement, if there are a huge number of women with health endangering pregnancy, then they need to concetrate on treating the illnesses. If we sent money for that, that would be a different thing entirely. But, sending money over to abortions is not something the us should do. And my family has been here for 6 generations at least. |
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planet?" Because we can. "Who helped us out durring the depression? No one." It was a GLOBAL depression. And, before you make off the cuff blanket statements like that, check your history. I don't know if your right, but I seriously doubt that you know. The rest I'll get to later when I have the time. It'll take a bit of time, believe me... |
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Just the same, why does that mean we should spend tax dollars on abortion? |
The end of World War 1 - Treaty of Versailles. The treaty demands payments and repartions of war debts from the defeated countries. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1927 Some U.S. Banks fail because of bad investments and low prices for agricultural products. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1928 Herbert Hoover is elected president -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1929 The stock market fails in October, which sends millions of investers into bankruptcy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1930 Hawley-Smooth Tariff Act raises the import duties on a wide variety of raw materials and industrial products -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1931 Hostilities between China and Japan begin resulting in increased defense spending, and preperations for war to efficiently insulate Japan from an economic depression. Hoover creates the Reconstruction Finance Corporation to lend money to businesses to help prevent failing >>>WE STEPPED IN THEN -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1932 Franklin Deleno Roosevelt ( FDR ) is elected president. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1933 Adolf Hitler becomes chancellor of Germany and he puts into effect his 4 year plan of economic recovery. FDR declares a federal bank holiday, to determine which banks are solvent enough to re-open. FDR broadcasts the first fireside chat with America. The 100 days congressional session approves 15 major acts, this initiates the new deal. The World Economic Confrence is held in London. They fail to agree on international polocies to cooperate combat in the worldwide depression. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1934 Wall Street trading is regulated by the Securities and Exchange Act. The new deal policies are mandated by the democratic majorities in Congress. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1935 Through the National Labor Relations Act workers get the right to orginize and the Social Security Act provides for old-age pensions and unemployment insurances. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1936 Germany's second 4 year plan focuses on defense and the build up of arms -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1937 FDR begins his second term. The recession begins. 1937-1938 unemployment raises to 20%. Congress defeats Supreme Court Reform Bill- emphasizing that the constitution must stay the principle of government. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1939 Germany invades Chechoslovakia, and resululting in defense spending buildup in in Great Britain, France and the United States. This ends the Great Depression of the 1930's. |
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Would they not be funded at the same levels? If not, it's not the will of the people and the government is doing a disservice to the people. The idea that I don't care about children (poor or otherwise, wanted or otherwise) is bunk. I don't support government money going to overseas abortion programs. |
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I see no argument on this thread that supports why tax dollars should be spent for this. |
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Why pay taxes to support schools? I'm sure the churches would love to take that over. While we are at it, let's take away funding for research. Why should we pay taxes at all? Why not just foist off all aid to the poor,here and abroad, to charities? Because charities can't support the need. I've got an idea: Why not figure out how much things like abortions and missle defense and all the other things you don't want to support with taxes cost, and then just leave that amount out of your income tax returns? I'm sure the IRS would understand. Oh, as a side note for Trace: You do know that our buddy Saddam has offered us a few million dollars to help our poor, right? So stop complaining that no one helps us out. Of course no one helps us out! No one helps out Denmark either, or other rich nations. You don't see many rich people eating in soup kitchens, do you? |
whether we like it or not, being the richest nation in the world, we have a basic obligation to assist the world in humanitarian ways whenever possible. and as long as we have this conversation, you can't talk to me about abortion = murder....that's a personal spiritual belief. you can't insert that into a discussion about gov't policy....its inflammatroy and beside the point. I don't believe abortion is murder because i do not believe an embryo is an independent lifeform. Are you such the isolationist nate that you woudl support buchanon's wall between mexico? |
"Why pay taxes to support schools? I'm sure the churches would love to take that over. While we are at it, let's take away funding for research." Church schools are not funded by taxes, only Public schools are funded with Public Taxes. Not all research is funded by taxes either, most is done by private donations or donations from a charity orginization. "Why should we pay taxes at all?"-Who do you think is paying for planned parenthood? Who would pay for the "Urinal Artwork?" "Why not just foist off all aid to the poor,here and abroad, to charities? Because charities can't support the need. "-No they do not, but the American Government is not a charitable organization, and my tax dollars are not a charitable donation. "Oh, as a side note for Trace: You do know that our buddy Saddam has offered us a few million dollars to help our poor, right? So stop complaining that no one helps us out." What the hell are you talking about? "and as long as we have this conversation, you can't talk to me about abortion = murder....that's a personal spiritual belief. you can't insert that into a discussion about gov't policy....its inflammatroy and beside the point. I don't believe abortion is murder because i do not believe an embryo is an independent lifeform. "-Again, I said: "Abortion is a woman's right, I agree with that. The US has the responsibility of protecting the American Woman's right to decide if they keep the baby or kill it." Sorry if 'kill' is too strong a word. What do you think you are doing to bacteria when you spray it with lysol, or a virus when you take an anti-biotic? |
Missile "defence" will arguably make the world more dangerous for America, especially if we pull out of the 1972 anti-ballistic missile treaty to make it possible. With school vouchers, church schools _will_ be funded by tax dollars. Define "charitable organization." Why does the American government not fit your definition? And, if you give a woman the right to an abortion, then take away any opportunity for her to have one, what good is the right? Earlier you used the a variant of the "teach a man to fish" cliche about birth control. Sure, education is necessary, but if you remove any access to the resources, what good is the education? |
the government doesn't pay for nose jobs, does it? in the same way, the government should not pay for non-necessary abortions. a necessary abortion is on in which the life of the woman is threatened. "I don't hear anyone taking issue with all of the other funds that we squander as a nation, whether it be for "the war on drugs" or inserting ourselves in the wars overseas by providing military aid." i'm sure i've made my positions on these clear elsewhere. i think the war on drugs is a farce and should be ended immediately by lifting the prohibition on recreational drug use. i am generally opposed to inserting ourselves in overseas wars. i'm sure i've voiced my opinion on aid to israel, our unjust war in iraq and the evil empire's bombing of civilians in the former yugoslavia. the government has a sole purpose: keep the country running and defended. "humanitarian" issues should be handled by private citizens. the government is not a charity because our contributions are mandatory. the government should be acting in our interests. if the people are interested in funding abortions in other nations, then a charity should be established and people should donate to that charity. if that charity cannot be funded by the people, then the people are not interested and government money should not be used, either. |
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I am not democratic, I do not believe in a level playing feild, but I believe the goverment has (or has been) sticking it's nose into far too much lately, and letting governing be forgotten |
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Trace and Nate, come with me to Thailand and see the hungry faces of children and then tell me you want to save all your loot to buy a bigger car or whatever is so incredibly important that you can't spare a couple of dollars a year. Trace, I'm especially surprised at your attitude given your emotive story about your baby daughter's fight for life. Just because a baby in Uganda didn't come from your wife's womb, doesn't mean it has any less right to live. And you as a father, and a citizen of this planet should be doing everything you can to help or at least quitting the whining over a few measly bucks. It's about a bigger story than just your backyard, you know. And it's only bloody money. Not blood. Patriotism is dead. Welcome to the World instead. |
can't spare a couple of dollars a year." Their culture can't support their children so it is my fault? it's not a matter of money, it's a matter of appropriate use of government funds. this is not appropriate for the US government to fund. period. it is much more appropriate for fund targeted at abortions around the world to be used for domestic education. much more important. i've been pigeonholed into the archetype of the coldhearted white fatcat with the cigars and martinis and to hell with everyone else. how much did you give in 2000, cat? fuck the dollar amount. as a percentage of your income. my conservative estimate is 25%. in the next couple months i'll be doing my taxes and i bet the actual number is closer to 30%. we mainly fund organizations that deal with education in "underprivledged' areas, somewhere where the government SHOULD be putting money but it doesn't. we also support research in diabetes, heart disease and cancer. (areas that should be funded by private donation.) i'm sure we've donated more than we will be able to write off. we did last year. so fuck all the character attacks. the liberal doublespeak. |
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the only thing vouchers will do is make the poor more stupid and the rich more educated, making the economic divide worse. |
You and Trace's judgements on what is and isn't appropriate for the government to support seem arbitrary. Why should the government support education and not support diabetes research? What is the distinction? Don't give up. It's a fucking cop out. What is it? Can't take a good argument? Can't take a little heated discussion? I thought you had a bit more spunk than that... And, if you believe in education so much, maybe you should be educating us. :-) |
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education is the cornerstone of a strong democracy. funding education does not impede development. the government funding of education is a direct investment in the nation as a whole. each dollar spent on education in underprivledged areas saves $6 in prisons and $11 in welfare. "But Nate, by your own reasoning, your funding of the "underprivledged" only impedes their development. Shouldn't they struggle like everyone else?" this just goes to show how your prejudice has distorted what you hear. i am pissed off that i am constantly judged by the color of my skin or the contents of my wallet. and i am pissed off that i used something i hold very dear as proof of character. |
or a child of Australia? |
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But, to your current argument, you haven't explained how funding of diabetes (which you said government shouldn't do) is different from funding of education. (which you said it should do) You've just mentioned some estimated monetary gain from investing in education. (And, I emphasize estimated. Just because you throw in some numbers doesn't make it a hard fact.) But, what if there was a comparable monetary or social benefit to abortions? Would it then be worthy of federal funding? |
i need a drink... |
as for the rest..i think the vision of "us" against "them" is narrow-sighted and petty. those who spend a lot of time with internet considerations should see that. i don't care if you choose to spend your energy on things that only benefit you or your own small circle. but the bottom line is that you benefit from being american, you've said that. you benefit from the cooperative payment and re-distribution of taxes. some of the people that also contribute to this money believe that it should be spent to 'better' the entire world. even if the only motivation for this is alleviation of guilt, to make them feel as if they are 'helping someone less fortunate'- it is a balance. someday you might need something that you can't achieve alone, why be selfish when you're in the position to give. if the united states intends to be a stronghold island in the world- we will lose |
in the post i was talking about the what the US government should do. not the citizens. last time i checked, i am a private citizen, not the entire government. charity should be of free will, not mandated by the government. |
I do care if a baby in another country lives or dies. I do not care to see my tax dollar going overseas to fund abortions. That is the bottom line. The voucher issue can easily spark more debates in a subject I really don't care too much about in the first place. I think the people who back the idea back it because they dont like their tax dollars being used to fund what they would call "secular education" ie evolution, humanism, homosexuality being ok (my first grader started having those classes in Kindergarden) etc when they feel that those things go against what they believe in. They would rather save the tax dollars and spend them in a school of their choice. But, we are not a pro-choice society are we not? I do have to side against vouchers here, though. Because everyone, even if you have no children at all, pay the same tax. If I do not agree with my tax dollars going to people who choose abortion over children, then I feel that I must also agree that my tax dollars should not go to people who choose to send their child to a tution based private school versus a tax based free public school. That is their choice and they will have to deal with the concequeces, which would be cost. Besides, the maximum benefit a family can receive is $1,500. I attended a very cheap, comparitavely, christian school that cost $95 a month, which would be $855 plus books, which totaled at around $400 if we bought used. Actually, between my brother and myself, it was $1,710.00 a year for the two of us, plus another $800 in books. We looked into sending our oldest, and it would cost us $435 a month plus books, for a total of $3,915 a year plus books for just one child. So the $1,500 is not very significant. Oh, and incedently 25% is a very conservative estimate. I think it is closer to 40%, between sales tax, property tax, income tax, utility tax, and "fees". |
i've found that if i have an issue with something going on around me that it usually doesn't take much effort to affect it. but it does take effort. i've also found that many of the people in organizations that i've been involved in have strong opinions and a lot to say, but when it comes down to it, they don't want to use their own energies to accomplish what they're asking for. |
ironically, their argument is that if parents like us were involved in the current school system, it would become more like what we're looking for without actually having to declare itself as such. tricky, eh? |
it's hard to try out something 'experimental' on real, live, delicate children. clearly one definition of education is not right for every person. |
unfortunately, we can't afford to go back next year. anyway, this is boring. for all kinds of reasons, i support tax-funded relief for all, everywhere period. i oppose capitalist exploitation. it just feels right to me. |
what i mean is that some people consider anything different from their experience as experimental. i'm very excited about public schools being better, but what i heard about theme-based education was questionable. [although i admit that it was heresay.] my friend's little sister went to a school [public, wealthy neighborhood] where they tried out alternative teaching for a few grades. one year all they seemed to do was play 'town', delivering mail and stuff. they didn't even correct their spelling. the worst part was that they only did it for a couple of grades and then abruptly put them in standard classes again where they had a difficult time adjusting. side note: my first grade class was combined with second grade. for some reason i got it in my head that i was not as smart as these other kids [not connecting with the idea that they were older]. there were also very big and scary boys in my class that chased us around at recess. after that my parents sent me to a private school because i started swearing a lot. in highschool they sent me back to public because the other school didn't have enough to offer. my fear of vouchers: but what about all the kids whose parents don't really care? they could end up stuck in worse schools with less chance at help than ever. |
Private schools require parents to become active and involved in their child's education. |
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back to the original topic: i wanna smack the hell out of bush. this must be how the stick-in-the-ass republicans felt about clinton. |
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I'd like to smack the Democrats in Congress while we're at it, dave. They're being a bunch of jelly-spined nutsacks. |
"Computer games don't affect kids; if Pac-man had affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." -unknown |
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At the heart of the plan are state standards and annual reading and math tests to measure students' achievement, extra money to help schools that fall behind, and financial sanctions if they ultimately don't improve. Bush stuck with the most contentious part of his proposal -- a plan to provide annual vouchers averaging $1,500 to students from low-income families who attend schools deemed a failure for three straight years. Teachers' unions and many Democrats argue that vouchers, which students could spend at private schools, would drain much-needed money from public schools If a school system cannot improve after 3 years, then I think some alternative should be available. Why? The Kanas City, MO school dristrict lost accredidation last year, after 6 month's warning that it was going happened. If they do not straighten up in 2 years they will loose federal funding. Time to take the schools to school. And funding over seas abortions with tax money is wrong! |
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Thuderdome! Thunderdome! Thunderdome! |
Or is it too hot, even for this place? |
Since there is a comma in the middle of the link I was going to post, I had to copy and paste it here |
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The irony is that by letting their maths programs rot, public schools have paved the way for arguments like this in their defense. The parents get a voucher, $1,500, ok, that comes out of taxes, but then the school has _one fewer kid_ to teach. Money per student left in the school goes UP. Unless, of course, the school is paying less than $1500 per kid per year, which probably happens some places but certainly isn't the norm. I have a motion that I do, kind of a mimed explosion of my head, to demonstrate my frustration of the nonsense of it all. I wish there were a text equivalent of it. How can we let a society that doesn't understand the difference between deficit and debt to vote on the people who set the budget? [?[-[*]-]?] <--- that's the best I could do. And going back to Nate, since when has the goal of the school been to keep kids out of prison? I mean, lets just give them all pre-frontal lobotomies, that'll give us a nice docile workforce. When the government teaches your kids, their goal is to produce easily governable adults. Pledge of allegiance, little blue uniforms in gym class, every essay following the same fucking format. All of 2% of the population realizing that something isn't right here. |
i personally think that the opposition is based on a lot of people who made their reputation and career administering the traditional school system are not willing to see their work marginalized by the inception of another method. that might make them look like failures after all these years. i'd also like to see high school abolished. i think that at 15 or 16, kids ought to be going to either trade schools or universities. |
(how many fucking shells, editors, etc. does a guy need anyway?) i even installed quake3 last night and it ran perfectly. if that's what you mean by working with it, yeah, i work with it. |
If X amount of students are taken away by parents with vouchers in hand to private schools....the x amount of dollars that may have been used collectively say for dodge balls and say a new gym or chemistry lab.....it may not add up. You can't break down half the expenses of a school on a student by student basis. a school could go with a new gym simply because 30 kids were pulled out and the school lost that money. the other 2400 suffer because some of the elitist left with vouchers. |
(Steve the Gothic Archaeologist wants to somehow talk him into paying off his student loans and giving him a Playstation2 while he's at it) Just for you, trace. |
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fewer kids equals fewer programs, less diversity, the chance that the only kids left have parents or guardians that don't get very involved. don't schools get money from the government based on the number of kids there? |
second, private schools can pick and choose who they want to accept. public schools have to take everyone. that means private schools don't have to fund programs for "special" kids. kids who take extra money to teach because of learning disabilites, autism, etc. under a voucher plan public schools will get "bottom heavy" as far as special cases, with more of their money going to students who need extra help. less money will be available for average+ students, so their education will suffer. when they find out they can get into private schools with the voucher program, the problem gets worse. vouchers are bad for public schools. regarding the abortions reducing the crime rate, that has nothing to do with the arguement of sending government money to fund abortions in other nations. but hell, let's run with it. how about genetic screenings. there are certainly genetic similarities among prisoners that would give us a "criminal blueprint". we could apply that blueprint against embryonic DNA -- if the baby matches certain criteria, mandatory abortion. |
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vouchers solve nothing. we should pay teachers twice or three times as much money as we do, as well as make becoming in certified public education much more rigorous and stringent, and then we should dump a whole fuckload of tax dollars into the education system, from end to end, from books and computers, to playgrounds and astroturf. |
I think high schools should be more enabled to expell trouble students who are making it more difficult to learn for the kids who want to be there. If the kids elect to go into the 9th grade and then become a deliquent, send them out to the work force. You learn the most in life before you turn eighteen. This would allow the high schools to be smaller, the teachers could concentrate on education verses discipline and attendence, the students that want to learn will be in a far more relaxed environment, and i dare say a cleaner one with more freedom and ability to build a nice facility that will not be destroyed by kids who did not want to be there in the first place. Plus, the kids who want to learn computers will not be forced to take literature and biology, but could concentrate on the areas they want, programming, building, designing, etc. They should already have the basics of grammar, math, social science, and math down by this time. Mechanics can have 4 years of training and take the ASE certification by the time they are 18, giving them a longer professional life, same goes for carpenters and plumbers and electricians, etc. The ones that chose high school can be prepped for college and ready for the change that college life brings. They would have more knowledge before they start college because they were able to get a better education in high school. America is way behind the ball when it comes to education and intelligence, and we should look more closely at the models the japenese, germans, and chineese have created. |
in most highschools i grew up around you CAN basically just study a trade if you want to. also- i'm not sure that everyone is in a position to choose their entire life career when they are 14. you don't think kids do things just because it's easier or their friends are doing it? just because you don't like school doesn't mean that some aspect of it isn't good for you. |
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..."The ceremony was very dignified, except when Al Gore, understandably, lost control, and Barbara Bush had to cold-cock him with the Bush family Bible. After that, George W. took the oath of office; he did this flawlessly, except for ending with the words ``so help me, Rhonda.'' Then he read a nice speech in which he pointed out -- correctly, in my view -- that the future lies ahead."... |
Try www.lp.org for your answers. |
Learn to speak japanese. |
I can eat glass, it does not hurt me. |
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did any of you catch bill o'reilly (from the o'reilly factor) on jon stewart talking about when he interviewed bush? he said something to the effect of GB being a big jesus fan and what would jesus think of his death penalty policies? he said "you know, being that jesus was a victim of capital punishment himself, i'll bet he'd have a thing or two to say about it." it was fairly hilarious. then JS showed a clip of jim baker at the inauguration saying that jesus is our nations' lord and then they showed the daily show's "God Correspondent" standing in front of the white house saying "well jon, i spoke to allah who said 'what about me? i moved mountains!' and a reply from siddartha buddha saying 'it's because i'm fat, isn't it?'" |