| THIS IS A READ-ONLY ARCHIVE FROM THE SORABJI.COM MESSAGE BOARDS (1995-2016). |
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Ummm. Ok |
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I was hoping for something else, and it is obvious they left it open for sequels All the guys I went to see it with were all techies too and as they left the theater they were a little disappointed too. |
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nice |
Shit, it was a lot better then pt 2. But now i'm excited about watching parts 2-3 back to back, at they are supposed to form one movie. |
I did go and read all the spoilers though, and it sounds even worse than I imagined. |
I'm still going to see it. THe worse I hear about it, the more I want to go to see how bad it really is! |
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not so much funny as clever, and true. |
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. Also, what's so disappointing about the end? It's a little sad, but.. . Fuckit. SPOILER ALERT . You've been warned. So the end of the war doesn't mean that the humans obliterated the machines. I couldn't see it ending that way. If they destroy the machines, all the people still plugged in die. They can't possibly save all those people. So Neo and Trinity both die. Yeah, we hoped they could make it, but how cheesy would it have been if they had come back all triumphant saying "Yay us! We will now get it on in another unpleasant sex scene!" . Neo doesn't beat Smith. A little unexpected. How many times can we watch Neo beat him down, anyway? . I couldn't see it ending any other way. They've been dropping megabomb hints all over. In Reloaded, the Oracle tells you how the third movie will end when she says, "the only way to get there is together." . I'll admit, though, that the Neo vs Smith fight scene was a little too Dragon Ball Z... . So yeah, it wasn't the greatest movie in the world, but I don't really understand why people are so incredibly hard on it. It doesn't make my list of favorites, but I'll see it again when it comes out on DVD. |
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dave and i saw it friday night. don't bother. |
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I think people don't like it because it's a tad hard to understand. I usually know the ending of a movie less than half way through, and it took me two viewings to completely grok Revolutions. It's probably over most people's heads. |
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Yes, he does sacrifice himself, and come to think of it, his hands were spread out as if he was on a crucifix (i dont know if that is spelled correctly or not) and after his death, the people did have (or so we are meant to believe) a choice on wether they accept real life with all it's unpleasentness(unplugged from the matrix) or a dream life with all it's luxuries, but the man did not return from the grave, nor did he pay the price of anyone's sins. Oh, he did bring whats-her-face back from virtual death..... There are similarities, to be sure, but I don't know that they were trying to make Neo look like a Messiah. |
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Jesus H Christ, spunk. About 50k google hits disagree with you. Not to mention all three movies. |
Even if they were tyring to make that happen, they failed in my mind. I am really not much into the christian scene anymore, but this really bugs me. Christ was not just about dying. He died to take away SINS. That was his point. I saw no one forgive for thier sins. Yes, Christ fought Satan durring the three day he was in hell, BUT, Satan did NOT die. Instead, he took death out of the hands of satan. He also knew who he was when he was a child, he changed REALITY not BYTES, he healed everyone, not just the ones he was close to, etc etc etc |
Here's the skinny: In the Matrix univers, the humans started the war against the machines. They also destroyed the machine's power source. Remember, in the first movie, Morpheus says that the humans "scorched the sky." So, it's the humans that have sinned against the machines. Neo sacrifices himself, saving the machines from Smith, in exchange for the human's amnesty. Capiche? |
Still does not change my opinion about it. I take that back. It LOWERS my opinion of it. |
That's another theme of the movie. What is reality? How do you know real is real? Completely lost on you. You're really proving my point, spunkster. |
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or is it just to poke your finger some more? I heard that theory a week before I saw the last one. I went into the movie with that theory in mind, and walked out feeling that that idea was out of whack. |
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Like I am somehow "beneath" you because I did not see the same things you saw in it. That's what I dislike most about talking politics with you all. If I don't see it your way, you react like I am beneath you, or not intelligent enough to grasp things on the same level as you. I am just not "enlightened" enough to understand you, nor am I "educated" enough for you to understand what I am saying..... |
Like a sinner, you fail to listen. Such is the world, my son. |
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Thanks for playing, next please. |
Feeling's mutual. |
And, this ain't a trick "no it's really clear, just scattering light from most wavelengths" question. |
Did Moses not lead his people to the promise land, and die never seeing it himself? Did he not change his staff into an asp, then back into a staff? Did he not change reality by splitting the Red Sea? |
Anyway, d00d, you need to be reading the new testament. Humility is what you need. When you're stupid, that means you need to learn, not resist and say you have nothing to learn. Ain't nothin' wrong with being stupid. We're all stupid compared to the universe. It's closing your eyes and ears that's arrogant, and arrogance in the face of the universe is the root of all evil. |
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OK. I really don't like discussing any religion any more at all, I have no use for it anymore. It hurts more then it heals, but.......... 1. Christ was GOD. Not created by GOD, but actually one of the Holy Trinity. Neo was created by the Architect. He was a program designed by the Architect to act a certain way. And 2. Christ was killed by his own people, the very people he was sent to redeem had him killed (the population asked the Sanhedrin to kill Christ). Neo was killed by his advisaries. See, the fact that the people that christ was sent to redeem chose for Christ to die is a VERY important part of Christ's story. |
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i've seen all three (the first two, twice) and feel like i entirely grok the plot and the philosophical intent. i just think it would make a better book series than a movie series. the visuals and the battles to me were completely silly and detracted from the story. i will go see bubbah ho-tep just because of your review, sem. |
you come across as amazingly fucking arrogant [and bubba ho-tep is a little slow] |
i should know. at the same time, spunk, why can't you just acknowledge that perhaps a major theme of the movie was originally lost on you. you only offer cop out excuses to sidestep the fact that the theme was lost on you "i don't want to talk about religion". i mean christ, what tiggy is saying has serious merit. it was obvious in the first movie. hell, any movie that deems any character the 'chosen one' is reaking of the jesus tip. so, stop being so stubborn, the fact that its tiggy delivering the message doesnt mean it contains any less merit. books, like movies have themes, some obvious. Some VERY obvious. Just because it was lost on you, doesnt mean its not there. "I listened, I understood, I rejected it." do you know how absurd that makes you sound? just like a few weeks ago with your comment about fundamentalism and whatnot. you mispoke, and everyone went round and round, tying you up in your own tongue and words and you still never admitted that you fucking mispoke when it was sitting there, like a giant steaming turd. look. im not trying to insult your intelligence, but please, learn when to admit you overlooked something. |
Thanks, babe. |
Maybe so. But there's more to the Matrix series than just the movies. "the visuals and the battles to me were completely silly and detracted from the story." That's 'cause you're a girl. There's a few points made in the movies that explain the fighting, why it is done, and whatnot. It's not pointless, and it's part of the story. It can't detract from the story because it's a part of the story. You only detract from your understanding by discounting it. |
I said that. Fuck. |
I said that. I tried to explain why. Fuck. |
no you didnt. you flat out rejected the suggestion of the theme throughout this discussion. spunk said "Sorry, but I have to say I do not see the "christ figure" in this movie at all." "I dont care if they do or not. That was MY personal take from the movie. Even if they were tyring to make that happen, they failed in my mind. I am really not much into the christian scene anymore, but this really bugs me." (i love that last one in particular. thats funny) "Still does not change my opinion about it." "I went into the movie with that theory in mind, and walked out feeling that that idea was out of whack." "I listened, I understood, I rejected it." spunk, in these types of discussions, to keep from sounding like a complete idiot, if you're refuting such an obvious theme of a body of work, you usually offer up substantial reason as to why. you havent. can you imagine sitting in a literature class and refuting that the river lacks any sybolic value in Huck Finn, for example? The teacher asks you to explain yourself and you say, "naaa, I don't like rivers, I'm not into that scene anymore" do you see the absurdity? |
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(argh) Anyway, I don't think spukem was flat out rejecting what Antigone said. He took up the argument and said it didn't work for him. Antigone only took up one of the points he raised, and Patrick, you just went through and took out one-liners, completely ignoring the larger points. So what if those lines make him sound bad? It looks just as bad to pick those up and look over his other points. |
I haven't. Did you read this thread, kazu, or are you just playign devil's advocate? "Christ was GOD. Not created by GOD, but actually one of the Holy Trinity." Neo wasn't created by the Architect. He was human. He was manipulated by the Architect, for sure, but was not created by him/it. Speculation has been made that Zion is really a matrix within the matrix, but the story doesn't overtly point to that. "He was a program designed by the Architect to act a certain way." Uh, Neo was human. d00d. And, there was a holy trinity: Father, (Architect) Son, (Neo) and Holy Ghost. (Oracle and Smith, or arguably the Matrix itself) "Christ was killed by his own people, the very people he was sent to redeem had him killed" Ya, that aspect of the Christ story wasn't in the Matrix. Does that mean the Matrix is not a messianic story? Nope. Neo didn't wear sandals, either. |
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What about the part about who killed Neo and whether that mattered.? And I don't even care if you do or not, but you don't have to pick on him so much. He conceded to some of your points and said that it failed to convince HIM. |
compare it to Jesus's footwear. I just see spunkem trying to have a conversation and you guys insist on telling him he's stupid. |
He don't need to converse. He just reads minds. |
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. . Antigone and Patrick, I think, understood him to mean that there was, in fact, no connection. . . Of course, it's metaphoric. Neo was not the son of God, so far as we know. In fact, I don't think anybody even mentions God in the movies unless it's to curse. I don't think we know just how close an analog to Christ they intended Neo to play... Any story with a "chosen one" seems to be full of Christ symbolism, but sometimes it's just because the Christians did it first. Spunky, as we all know, is more literal-minded, more black-and-white than some. That doesn't really have to be a bad thing, but it can lead to frustration when people try to take him into the gray. . This could be a really interesting discussion if everyone would lay off the attack-and-defend and just talk about the friggin' movie. . Like Antigone said, there's more going on than just the Christ symbolism. Maybe we should stick to that. |
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"There are similarities, to be sure, but I don't know that they were trying to make Neo look like a Messiah." I'm just a rabid dawg, ain't I? |
At least he brought it back around to it being his own opinion. He's still speaking spunky-speak, but also taking baby steps away from spunky-logic. Now shush and listen to TBone. |
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That's why I mentioned Moses. Moses was chosen to lead Isralites out of Egytian Slavery to the promised land, and even changed reality in the process, followed by dying before himself reaching the promised land. I felt that was a closer match, in my mind, to Neo then Christ. |
DID HE? |
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I didnt see the movie, the 3rd installment anyway so i cant and didnt comment directly on that. When it comes to the Bible, I have little to no understanding other than popular and very basic interpretations. Likewise I wasnt commenting directly on that either. what i saw (and responded to)was spunky being entirely illogical and pigheaded to tiggy's point, primarily because it was tiggy saying it, and while tiggy was being an arrogant fuckstick at times, he did have a few points about overtures of the Matrix series. Seeing two of the three i can comment in a general way, such as did. Moreover, at one point or another, i used to be like spunk in that Id argue the sky was green till i was sky blue in the face simply because I didnt want to acknowledge i was being a tard when in fact i actually felt quite stupid, knew i was wrong but was making a grandstand to save face. I've grown a bit, can usually acknowledge when im a tard, out of my element and otherwise ignorant of a situation, or just plain airheaded. I was advising spunk take that leap, as i did. the only matter I was addressing was spunks blunt refusal of the an obvious overture, that even I got to the movie. I also, KABLOOO, made a point of citing that i wasnt trying to address intellect on the matter as much as i was trying to address his blockheadedness about the matter. |
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the Matrix is so much closer to Hindu/Buddhism than it is to christianity. SOOO much closer. It's almost ALL THERE. It's all i could think of when i saw the first one! I was telling people that for some reason Keanu has decided to play Buddha twice in his movie career. |
In "The Second Renaissance" there's tons buddhist imagry. Overt. So overt that even spunky could deny it. :) |
I LIKE the first Matrix. but even that movie and its message is nowhere near as deep as people give it credit for. Its a good sci-fi movie with an interesting theme with some special effects we've never seen before., and not much more. Frankly, I'd rather watch Dark City but thats me. My disappointment with the sequels has nothing to do with it not being interesting enough philosophically or whatever, its because it takes itself way too seriously, is actually visually uninteresting as they've gone way over-the-top to the point of ridiculousness, expand a story that didnt need to be expanded or concluded, and didnt even deliver the continuation of a story that the end of the first movie promised: that is, Neo 'showing the people inside the matrix the truth. The Wachowskis bit off way more than they could chew. The sequels insult my intelligence while acting like they're teaching me or revealing something to me I've never thought of before. They aren't. Maybe JimBob from Macon just went to see the action sequences and ending up getting something out of it but smart people should know enough to realize the sequels for what they are: cash grabs, they've George Lucased the Matrix. if you want to enjoy the movies on that level thats fine, hope you had fun. Its really ironic how one of the main points of the first movie was to question everything, when now with the sequels we're just supposed to accept everything and just trust that the Wachowskis know what they're doing and if we don't like it, its our fault and we dont 'get it'.. no fun... no fun... no fun.... |
Man, you've outdone yourself! "actually visually uninteresting as they've gone way over-the-top to the point of ridiculousness" So, you're saying it's boring because they did too good of a job? Because they were too grandiose? d00d, if you looked out over the grand canyon, would you say it sucked because it was too over the top? "The Wachowskis bit off way more than they could chew." Wait, I thought you just said they did too much. "The sequels insult my intelligence while acting like they're teaching me" Oh, so not only are you anthropomorphising the moview, you also know what they're thinking? Are you channelling spunky? "now with the sequels we're just supposed to accept everything" d00d, Rowlf, I think you're in perpetual paranoid rebellion mode. I hope your pet dog didn't whisper that post into your ear... |
kinda like how so many people thought the big revelation in fight club was totally original whereas i, having read more than a few pk dick stories, was considerably less than blown away. still, it was a good movie. so it is with the original matrix. i haven't seen the sequels. somebody needs to make a ringworld movie. |
I'm dealing with the fact that I'm going to quit my job tomorrow. It sucks. I'm pissed. The paranoid rebellion is in WAYYYYYY deep right now, and everything in my way is getting what I call "the Rollins Treatment". "So, you're saying it's boring because they did too good of a job?" the whole highway chase reeks of effort, in a bad way. do you know what I mean? When someone tries so hard to do a good job and make something they think will be new and fresh that they actually end up making it cheesy because its begging for you to look at it rather than draw you in on its own merit? ESPECIALLY at the end of the chase when the trucks get crunched up... and then I get confused, wondering if they were really over-trying the whole time, or they were actually being lazy and just throwing a bunch of money at someone to attempt to shine their shit for them.. as for pretentious drivel, the most glaring example is everything out of Morpheus' mouth. He's the cheesiest of all of them. "kinda like how so many people thought the big revelation in fight club was totally original " the first time I saw Fight Club all I could do at that scene was scream "bullshit!" at the TV, because of how actually cliched and stupid it was... its been done, and besides, the clues were all there, and they really drew it out before they had Durden spell it out for the Narrator... since then I've come to appreciate the movie for different reasons, but I still know what you mean. |
In most people's eyes, they raised the bar with the first one pretty high. EVERYONE made Matrix rip-offs. How do you follow that up? A friend of mine suggested that the whole Attack Of The Smiths scene was put in to flip the bird at all the Matrix rip-offs. A big ol' "Copy this, fuckers!" It was impressive, but I think it would have flowed better if 3/4 of it wasn't in slow-mo. . It's damned hard to make something really awsome but not seem like it was a major effort. . I think the action scenes went on too long sometimes, but a LOT of people bought their tickets for those scenes. . I was under the impression that the second movie was SUPPOSED to cast Morpheus as a bit of a crackpot. I mean, at the end of the movie, Neo flat-out tells him that he's been a tool this whole time. . American movies can't be too sly about their messages. They have to spell them out pretty damned clearly or most people won't bother. It's a sad truth. If they don't drop megabomb hints throughout the movie, they will be accused of being nonsensical. Popular movies, anyway. Or they have to have to completely obscure the plot with action scenes. . Enough people completely missed the point of Fight Club that some of them actually tried forming Fight Clubs. The movie they idolized mocked them! Going from one kind of mindless tool to another. . It must be frustrating to make a movie (or especially write a book) like Fight Club or The Matrix and have people love it for the wrong reasons. It must be excruciating to have to spell out everything so obviously in order to be understood. . At least the Matrices had some levels to them. I think they could have gone deeper, though. |
http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/movies/ringworld_movie_001106.html see, now i'm all thinking i should be careful what i wish for. |
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but they really did leave too many questions unanswered. A few is ok, but the whole architect thing really needed to be explored more, in my opinion. like, how does the fact that there were six previous Neos (if that was indeed the case) jibe with Neo's awakening from the Matrix in the first movie? How exactly does Neo have power over machines? If the sky has been scorched, where the hell is all the breathable air coming from? How does zion feed itself? Why is it that the all-powerful machines can produce and maintain a virtual reality world but not figure out how to get energy from anything but human beings? I was really gunning for the idea that there was a matrix inside a matrix after the second movie, but the third really didn't elaborate at all on that. which really makes me suspicious that this is the last matrix movie. I think they should make another one, but they should hand over the directors reins to someone else, as in the "Aliens" franchise. A Matrix movie that was more like the last two Aliens films would be good. |
That Zion was actually part of the Matrix. And yes, good question about needing energy from human beings. And why could they not control the agents? And why would they create the orecal and program her to help bring the system down? |
I'm really disappointed by the whole Architect thing. there's such a thing as being too enigmatic. and what's the deal with the Trainman? that was a far more interesting character than that one dude's bazooka-toting wife was. |
yeah. whatever. |
. Humans are not necessary for a fusion reaction... . My thought is that the machines couldn't completely do away with the humans. They keep mentioning purpose, especially in the second movie. What purpose would the machines have if there were no humans? So they made a form of control so they could still take care of the humans and not be threatened by them. Their purpose as a power source was therefore secondary. But they didn't really touch on this in the movies. . I thought the idea of Zion being a Matrix in a Matrix didn't make much sense. There would be little reason to put those kinds of resources into crushing the human opposition if they weren't really a threat. Zion _was_ another form of control, so to speak... It existed because the machines allowed it to... and because they needed it to. But I think it was physical. You don't have to have someone's brain in your lap to control them. . And ultimately, that control was total. The machines were fully capable of destroying Zion. Smith is the one who saved them, indirectly... Fortunately the machines held to their promise to Neo. . The Agents were controlled just fine. Smith was no longer an Agent, though. . The Oracle was designed to bring stability to the system. That's _exactly_ what she did... By ending the war. |
It's my best guess. |
. Neo's previous incarnation? |
TBone, ever heard of that "suspension of disbelief" thingie? "What purpose would the machines have if there were no humans?" What purpose do we have without machines? Lots. "I thought the idea of Zion being a Matrix in a Matrix didn't make much sense." It would make sense if you see it as a training ground for The One. "Neo's previous incarnation?" Seems likely. |
. The machine's original purpose was to serve humans. Maybe they considered the Matrix to be a continuation of that purpose. Not that there's a lot of evidince for that, I was just offering it as a possible reason that they didn't just wipe out humans and use their fusion power. |
They are taking total care of them. feeding them, birthing them, "protecting" them. And that would give them purpose. The person who preached about purpose the most was Smith, but I think that was because he felt he no longer had a purpose after Neo beat him the first time. And your point about the Oracle is right. She was supposed to bring balance. What as the Architect's purpose? I honestly do not even remember if he had a role in the last one... |
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Then, there's that "suspension of disbelief" thing. There's not much point to indulging in a piece of fiction if you're going to doubt it's fundamental assumptions. |
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Same goes, for the most part, most science fiction films. It is almost a requirement. Almost. I enjoy sci fi that is grounded in some fact, but I really do not like the ones that are all grounded in existing technology or fact. Of course, if it were all flights of fancy, then it is way too much. |
. I'm not really doubting the fundamental assumptions, just thinking aloud about the reasons. Either way, the machines need the humans. |
No, and that's why I'm not judging the Matrix movie's interpretation or use of it. "Either way, the machines need the humans." And the humans need the machines. This was a major point of all three movies. |
Of course. |
If you must know: first you must know Rollins Syndrome. you think you're honestly a likeable guy or girl, and you really do have a sense of humor and most of the time are good to be around, but you're easily stressed out, and whatever wall you've built around you to deal with your dayjob isnt too hard to knock down. You try and vent your day-to-day frustrations to clear your head. you know exactly what it is in your life that is bothering you. But at the same time you're smart enough to know not everyone wants to hear about your day. At least you assume noone wants to hear about your shitty day at work because dammit you never listen to most other people when they're whining about their day at work. You see them as whiners or annoying and so you try not to be like them and dont really let out your anger and frustration to them, but only tell the funny stories from work. make it look like you don't mind it. but that anger and frustration gets built up, and instead of being thrown back in the face of whatever it is that is causing you trouble, you redirect this hostility through some other petty hatred. Like going to message boards and talking trash about a movie as if the movie fucked your kid in the ass and then wiped up the blood with his teddy bear. Or acting as if the insignificant career of one pop star is going to ruin society. This is Rollins Syndrome. Rollins treatment is when people like me infect the rest of you with this sort of depressing, kinda solipsistic, hateful garbage. And its where pretention meets honesty. I know its not cool. I'm sorry. Do I really think the Matrix sequels suck that bad? Well, yeah, I actually do. Does it really matter? No. I mentioned before that I was going to quit my dayjob today. I did, sort of, kind of, not really, but I guess so... you might have been in that sort of situation before and know what I mean. But this goes back to a couple paragraphs ago, about how I think noone wants to hear about my day, and I dont even really want to talk about it either. I'd somehow rather stew in my juices and be a prick about movies on the internet, and try and avoid giving too much grief to those I must deal with in meatspace. I shouldnt complain so much. Michael Jackson is having a much worse day than I. |