| THIS IS A READ-ONLY ARCHIVE FROM THE SORABJI.COM MESSAGE BOARDS (1995-2016). |
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The the Bush administration, prodded by golf buddies/oil execs seem unwilling to take to task Saudi Arabi out of fear of harming the pipeline, i say its time consumers take it upon themselves to demand more fuel efficient autos and to lobby your reps to find alternatives to Saudi oil before another 9/11 happens. Is it just me or does this not arouse absolute outrage? |
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I know we are being way to soft on the Saudis. I've said it myself. But we are being way too soft on a lot of different countries. |
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The key backers of Al Qaida are said to be 12 prominent Saudi businessmen — all of whom have extensive business and personal connections with the royal family. These include ties to such ministers as Saudi Defense Minister Prince Sultan Bin Abdul Aziz, Interior Minister Prince Nayef Bin Abdul Aziz and Riyad Governor Prince Salman. In July, the Rand Corporation delivered a briefing the Defense Policy Board which warned that the Saudi royal family has grown dependent on Islamic insurgency groups linked to Al Qaida. The Saudis spend billions of dollars in supporting anti-Western religious activities throughout the world, Middle East Newsline reported. The CIA has tracked the flow of the funds of the 12 businessmen and have urged U.S. allies in Africa, Asia and Europe to freeze the assets of the Saudis. So far, no action is said to have been taken. On Tuesday, officials said the National Security Council has discussed a plan to pressure Saudi Arabia into ending the flow of funds to Al Qaida. They said one proposal, which has not yet been approved, calls for a U.S. ultimatum that would give the kingdom 90 days to crack down on Al Qaida or face unilateral U.S. action. Officials would not elaborate what this action would involve. "The facts are not in dispute," a congressional source familiar with the CIA investigation said. "The CIA has briefed key congressional committees on the Saudi violation of its promises to stop funding to Al Qaida. The argument between the administration and Congress concerns what do we do now." The United States relayed the names of the businessmen to Riyad in February. But officials and congressional sources said the kingdom took no action against them. ABC News identified one of the businessman as Yassin Al Kadi. He was described as a multi-millionaire involved in banking, chemicals, diamonds and real estate. "I fear that many people in the royal family or people close to the royal family have been aiding and abetting terrorists, wittingly or unwittingly," Sen. Richard Shelby, an Alabama Republican and a leading member of the Senate Select Intelligence Committee, said. "The president believes that Saudi Arabia has been a good partner in the war against terrorism," White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, who confirmed the council's discussions, said. "But even a good partner like Saudi Arabia can do more in the war against terrorism. And that involves the financial front, diplomatic front." Earlier, Treasury Undersecretary Jimmy Gurule told the Senate Judiciary Committee that Saudi Arabia has agreed to establish an oversight committee on Islamic charities. But Gurule acknowledged that the United States will not have any influence on this panel. A report by the New York-based Council of Foreign Relations said Al Qaida's global fundraising network leans heavily on Saudi Arabia. The report said Al Qaida's network is built upon a foundation of charities, nongovernmental organizations, mosques, web sites, intermediaries, facilitators and banks and other financial institutions. Some donors are aware that their money will fund Al Qaida attacks, the report said. Others donate money to legitimate humanitarian efforts, but the money is nonetheless diverted to Al Qaida. "For years, individuals and charities based in Saudi Arabia have been the most important source of funds for Al Qaida," the report said. "And for years, Saudi officials have turned a blind eye to this problem." Al Qaida channels funds through banks, Islamic banks and money changers, the report said. The movement also employs trade in gold and other other commodities to move and store value. The organization, which began in the late 1980s, was established by Osama Bin Laden through the use of Saudi funds funneled to Islamic insurgents fighting Soviet troops in Afghanistan. Al Qaida's financial network was maintained when the organization moved from Saudi Arabia to Sudan, and then Afghanistan. "Al Qaida differs from traditional, state-sponsored terrorist groups in one critical way: it is financially robust," the report said. "Having developed multiple sources of support, it is free from the control of any government and able on its own to maintain its organizational infrastructure, communications systems, training programs, and operations. As such, it historically has been able to operate from failed or dysfunctional states." |
i see a call to consumers to wake up and realize that we are, indirectly, funding the terrorists that seek to blow us to smithereens by buying their fucking oil. On the contrary, Im calling on consumers to FLEX their freedom of choice, not limit it. Like Arianna Huffington said in that article before, if the Bush administration can make the case that we are supporting terrorists by buying drugs, the same, if not more prolific argument can be made with oil. El Al, the Israeli Airline is nationalized and its the safest in the world. Its more reponsive to security needs. Whats the alternative to paying ridiculous ticket prices because the airlines have to impliment stringent security measures. High ticket prices or security? take your pick? |
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I think he's turning into an open-mike-night poet...or a bad folk singer |
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c'mon you guys. i haven't lost my mind. i really think that if we are going to take out sadaam, we need to make a committment to the people of iraq. we need to show them a better way if we believe there is a better way. yeah, i'm a bad folk singer. these are the things in which my generation believed. most of the problems in the world RIGHT NOW are the result of people not getting along with other people. let's review,...the middle east, the break-out russian republics, tibet, taiwan, bosnia, blacks and whites in the usa. i think that "getting along" would really solve a lot of our problems. look, i want to understand the generational difference here. please tell me why "getting along" is not the answer. |
for fuck's sake, they'll never allow that. what hot, young chick will want anything to do with a meek peacenik? hell no. warmongering = hot girlies rubbing on your peter. war rules! |
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or are gas prices only important to road warriors in your post apocalyptic anarchy wet dream? |
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If it were, we would not have taken it 91? Why didn't we take Kuwait's oil? Or pick on some other country that might not posses mustard gas and the likes to use against us? There really is little logic in saying this is only about oil. Yes, we will benefit from someone else in Iraq controlling the oil production, but no, our intention is not to control it ourselves. There is a reason we are going into Iraq. to set up a more US friendly government. But not to steal the oil. That's just the favorite argument of any anti-war group, with no basis in fact. the US and Britain built the oil fields ourselves in Kuwait and Iraq and Saudi Arabia, for pete's sake |
SUV drivers? |
SUV drivers? |
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if you're barely cutting it as it is, an extra $300 a month could really fuck you over. and no, dave., i don't think it is purely about oil. but i do think that economic impact is a valid consideration and not just about lining the pockets of the ultra wealthy. |
Information Super Computer Bureau managed by convicted criminal John Poindexter.(noticed how quickly that story and his name disapeared? And they say the media is liberal. give me a fucking break.) The investigation into the 9/11 failuresare being led by established liar Kissenger. the "Patriot Act" and now they are proposing a cabinet level "Intelligence Czar" wtf? isnt it the rightwing that always criticizes the left for making a bureaucracy out of everything? what the fuck up this Orwellian bureaucracy we see? god damn man. |
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i hadnt heard that sem. |
By "close" I mean we actually need to go out and physically build 5,336 miles of wall on the northern border and 1,184 miles on the southern border. Force everyone to go through the checkpoints instead of just being able to wander over. That should have been done a long time ago. We are a nation that is based on immagration, and that should not change. But tighter control is definately needed. |
there is river that seperates the US and Mexico, in addition to razor wire, fence and vast desert terrain and countless more Border Agents than on the Canadian border yet more immigrants and drugs sneak in there via the Canadian border. Building a fence, like Israel is doing with Palestine, will make no one more safer. The Berlin wall was as you described and it didnt keep people from moving back and forth. There is no basis in thinking your proposal will make us any safer. In fact, its just a band aid on a greater wound. Curbing American imperialism and hypocrisy abroad woudl do more than any god damn wall will. |
That is why I call you an American Hater, and a Blame America Firster... Because you do. |
Trace, don't you complain about the government being too intrusive? |
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there is no order in which i assign blame. blame is blame. the idea of "blaming america first" is just silly. to not recognize that the threat to the USA is a direct result of American hypocrisy and imperialism overseas is foolish. its not that al Qaida "doesnt like freedom" as some dipshits have maintained, they want our shit out of Saudi Arabia, Israel (and America) out of sovereign Palestine to name to two biggest reasons they want to kill us. calling me an "America Hater" not only sounds fucking hillbilly but it couldnt be further from the truth. |
Would you rather a wall or helicopters, tanks and bunkers? |
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people like you. once people lose the ability to pay back loans or buy new shit, those who save and invest stand to lose their savings and investments. the poor are already poor. the only way people like you will be able to hang on to your savings is to plunder the resources of the third world. fuck sovereignty - send in the thugs. it's ironic that those with the most to protect won't be anywhere near the battle. what a sham. however, saddam's a total bastard and death would be far too kind for him. |
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those bastards! they shocked santas balls! those bastards! they killed jesus! those bastards! |
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it seems like wall street is a big counterfeit ring. |
joplin. got that right. we're so unfree. |
i guess that makes sense to me in a general way, but aren't we also free to decide how much we want our wealth? because it seems like we had the freedom to choose that, and we have consistently chosen to pursue personal wealth / economic stability over freedom. So in a sense we have the freedom to choose, but our choices bind us. of course, these choices are collective choices of the entire group... (disclaimer: maybe you will all read this as "ophelia is stupid" but i need to go back and re-define stuff or i stop knowing what i believe in, and just get very confused, because i usually just feel too intimidated by the strong opinions to talk about politics with you people.) |
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are you sure? i didnt necessarily "CHOOSE" to have a car with insurance, or medical insurance, a gas bill, a phone bill, taxes and so on. Sure i could go without these things but what kind of life would i lead for myself and my family otherwise. What can I reasonably expect if i were to shuck my car, the insurance and state fees that come with owning one? ok. all of sudden my choices for income are severely limited. healthcare? if i want to get cheap affordable healthcare...i have to work. you see how its all connected? if i want to microwave a fuckign bowl of soup.....i have to pay the electric company. if i wanted to heat it up over the stove i have to pay the gas company. The system has us by the balls Ophelia. It will get yours too soon enough....when you are completely off your parent's tab, you'll see how expensive it is just to scrape by. so yes we are bound by the society we created. Hell even if i wanted to go protest, Id need to take a vacation or sick day. Even THAT costs something. |
I get your point. I see what you are saying, but what would be an acceptable alternative? |
i didnt say anything about having these things handed to anyone. You gotta stop with the knee-jerk Rush Limbaugh responses spunk. I dont always have an alternative spunk. If i did...your paychecks would bear my signature. All im saying is we arent as free as we like to think. |
No one forces you to do anything. You can choose who to buy your car from. You can choose who to get insurance from. You can choose what level of coverage you want. You can choose what deductables you want to pay. You can choose what level of health insurance you want. You can choose what doctors you see. You can choose where to get your prescriptions filled. You have no idea what freedoms you really have. You can choose where to buy your gas. You can choose where to buy your groceries. Really, the only choice we do not have is where we get our utilities from. And California is trying to work on that. YOu can also choose to be sick and not see a doctor. You can choose to wait until you are so sick you have to go to the emergency room where they DO NOT HAVE A CHOICE but to treat you. QUIT YOUR BITCHIN You want a Limbaugh Knee Jerk Reaction? "I dont always have an alternative spunk." Rush Limbaugh: "Liberals do not have an agenda. Not one they will admit to anyway. Liberals do not have solutions. All they can tell you is why you should not vote for thier opponents. All they do is point out problems, but never offer any solutions". That is a Limbaugh Quote. |
Yeah I can pick my doctor, coverage, plan etc etc depending on what I can afford. What I can afford depends on so many variables. Freedom is not about being able to pick Kaiser over MetLife dingdong. Dicks with agenda's are a bore anyway. What the fuck do you (he) mean by "agenda"? A grocery list. THATS an agenda. You example here is hardly any indication of freedom trace. |
and that is very sad |
it is you, fed like a sheep, who is duped into this idea of freedom they keep selling on you. freedom to choose which fucking cell phone plan is best for you is not freedom and i dare you say that to any respectable educator in the related field. |
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final objective desired conclusion I am a dick with an agenda. I have a place I want to be at 30 years from now. I have a place I want my kids to be in 30 years from now. I have specific goals, and the path to get there. That is an agenda. Otherwise you are wandering aimlessly. And I was a dunce for following your lead. You were the one who was whining about not being able to microwave anything without haveing to buy electricity. You were the one who was whining about having to have insurance. You were saying we are not free because of these things. |
its an observation that you can't deny. |
Eri and I spend the last week of each month praying nothing goes wrong, because we are that strapped. I get annoyed over the naggy little costs here and there. My wife can't buy curtains without having to redo the entire room.... I have said the same thing about car insurance. I think it's a god damn scam, if you ask me. But I could just not have a car, or buy a cheapo used car that does not require full coverage. But I do not think our freedoms suffer because of these facts |
you CAN'T consider not going without a car trace because you stand to loose quite a bit and thats my point. Your are bound, and by that token, you are not free. |
but the gov cannot do anything about that. until the dependance on money ends. but society is in no way ready for that. |
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I dont think we've chosen our dependence. its been decided for us. |
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as i grew up i was constantly battered by adults who told me that i could NEVER make a living from music. the emphasis was on making a living, not on being happy with your life. i was made to feel that the thing that gave me the most joy was the single biggest liability in my life. there was no one who tried to be a mentor to me. all i felt was that my family was thinking "look at the asshole who thinks he's a musician". allright, enough self-pity. my point is that america is mostly concerned with WEALTH as a measure of success, and even the immigrant generation bought into this. that generation came from a culture that admires artists of all kinds but chose to change in order to fit in. my father LOVED music but never supported my decision to be a musician. wealthy folks love to "support" artists but would never consider them their equals if confronted. our nation's capital is a wonderful example. nowhere is there a greater concentration of self-important assholes who think that they are so fucking cool but actually are idiots who don't have a clue. |
Would that wall be for keeping evil terrorists out or keeping you crazy bastards in? |
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the page can be found at www.flatmatesreunited.com and its free. Sue |
thank you |
Immigration to the United States has slowed down to a trickle. One of my roommates works for a company that helps immegrants integrate into American culture and he's afraid that his job won't exist in a year or so. Bush isn't letting very many people in. Most of those who are coming in these days have money. There aren't many poor foreigners coming to America anymore, we're becoming gentrified. A nation of immegrants is turning it's back on the world. |
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immigration, like anything is in a capitialist culture, should be based on appliciability to available work. if someone from india will come in and do something with moderate skill for a cheaper price, bring them in. they are good for american business. if you have sex with goats and film it, you can make money on the internet. |
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*laughs* oh pez. where do you draw the line for our committment in the worlds affairs? you can't go around saving every human on the planet from an oppressive gov't now can you? thats just not possible. saying we are "turning our backs"...what...as if we are obligated to let people in? why? how? what about people in the ghetto? dont they have a right to live where they feel safe? consider this and see if it doesnt temper your lofty idealism. also, what does gentrification have to do with immigration? |
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we should trade one week. I totally want to see that long hair on my john deere |
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with all of my education and work experience, i just barely qualify for residency in n.z. based upon their point system which is adjusted on a DAILY basis. could the u.s. possibly take a lesson from that? the reason i only make it by a "hair" is that i don't have a lot of CASH that i could bring into the country. money plays a huge part in the equation. a person's criminal record does as well. i think this is a good thing. this is how n.z. remains one of the safest countries in the world. |
The current flood of imagrants don't want to be integrated. They just want to make money. How can you say the flow has become a trickle when our borders have become a world wide joke? We have a flood of illegal imegrants constantly crossing our borders. Just ask anyone living in the border states. The government has even put up water stations near the mexican border to keep them from dying of thirst. |
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until native or naturalized americans seek these jobs back for themselves i suggest you go fuck yourself. as nate says, they are an important part of our economy. |
Most of them come into this country during the season do their jobs and then go home. They are great assets for both Mexico and the US. I have no problem with them. But, there are a lot of others that just come here and go on assistance. Mexico is even trasporting the sick and injured in ambulances and dumping them at US hospitals to get free medical care. We have more than enough US citizens who need medical care and assistence and can't get it. Why should we take and give it to the illegals. |
you should drive around LA, in particular spots like the Home Depot or by the UHaul place of the immigrants looking for work. Im willing to bet that more than half of them are illegal. They are looking for labor jobs as i describe above. |
They are being ripped off if they are illegals. They'll be paid much less than minimum wage. And, sometimes their empolyers will use them and turn them over to the INS before paying them. Free Labor. Even worse things have happened to illegals than that. |
And, for the record, most illegal immigrants return to their country of origion within two years, according a UN study. Furthermore, many of the immigrants come from highly unstable countries (Brazil, Columbia, Venezuela). To me, it would be murder to send them back. And Patrick and Nate are right, immigrants are a vital part of our economy. Even legal immigrants get shafted in difficult field work with noxious chemicals. Better than in Mexico, where they are forced to work with chemicals banned by the first world (curiously enough, the United States manufactures and sells these chemicals to the third world). Were we to pay these immigrants the legal minimum wage, let alone a living wage, the price of produce would shoot up beyond the means of most Americans. And there would be a whole lot less manicured lawns in the border states. |
I can't remember what I was going to say about gentrification. |
you don't know what you're talking about watcher. |
And, if you know they are illegal why aren't you telling the INS where they are? |
a dozen or more immigrants wouldnt be hanging around the home depot or uhaul place if there wasnt a good chance of getting work. they go there for a reason ding dong. are you stupid enough to think that if i notice them standing on the corner looking for work, the INS doesnt notice them? don't you think they know they are there? do you call the Highway patrol everytime you see someone run a stop sign? perhaps the INS recognizes their value in the american economy. i'll repeat, until legal citizens are being deprived of work because of the illegals, shut your mouth. |
you planning on moving there? maybe start up a little private investigation business? domestic survelance? |
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Hangon - I got an official opinion - we are called that because we have Alps. |
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nafta, the grand free trade americans will have more jobs initiative, actually cost american jobs--why?--because factories moved south of the border to take advantage of cheap labour, no regulations, and no union. fuck, if we threw all the illegal immigrants out today, this country would grind to a screaming halt. |
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and even though the labor is cheap south of the border, those people are making a lot more money than before the factories. it is good for the hemisphere. |
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Most unions these days doi need to be fucked. Up the ass. With a hacksaw. They don't do much these days. |
I think. |
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Oh, and tax only the "rich" (anyone who makes more then 29k a year is considered "rich"... |
yeah, fuck corporate welfare. |
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to get down there, I will. |
to get down there, I will. |
And then came the Assumptions. And the Assumptions were without form, And the Plan was without substance. And darkness was upon the face of the Workers And they spoke among themselves saying, "It's a crock of shit, and it stinks." And the Workers went unto their Supervisors and said, "It is a pail of dung, and we can't live with the smell." And the Supervisors went unto their Managers saying, "It is a container of excrement, and it is very strong, such that none may abide by it." And the Managers went unto their Directors saying, "It is a vessel of fertilizer, and none may abide it's strength." And the Directors spoke among themselves, saying to one another, "It contains that which aids plant growth, and it is very strong." And the Directors went to the Vice Presidents saying unto them, "It promotes growth, and it is very powerful." And the Vice Presidents went to the President saying unto him, "This new plan will actively promote growth, and vigor of the company with very powerful effects." And the President looked upon the Plan, and said that it was good, And the Plan became Policy. And this is how shit happens. |
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that's not next to nothing... |
Lucky for you, your ancesters were able to get into America, before America put up its "filled to capacity" sign. You just can't go changing the fundamental concepts of this country on a whim. "Lucky for us,we were able to get in. Too bad for you, you can't." Baaaaaaa Perhaps you'd rather live in a country where the government dictated where you work, what level of education you were to be allowed, what appliances you could own? This is America. We ALL have the chance to better ourselves. Some take advantage of that right, and others sit around boo-hoo'ing about their rotten life. Their choice. Choice, thats what its all about. |
$8/hour sound better than it really is. yeah joe....what she said. your lost me in the first sentence |
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what do you think will happen if gas staion emps got $10 or more an hour? You know what happens when you raise min wage? INFLATION. Then they are actualy making LESS then they were before, when you figure for cost of living. The only thing that happens is the person who took credit for the raise looks good because the poverty line got moved up. But in the end, more people end up under the line. That's why we need more then just someone trashing an economic plan, we need a good one. And another thing, the president cannot control the economy. You and I, the consumer make up 70% of this nation's economy. more people go out and spend, more goods are needed, more are need to move the goods, more are needed to stock the goods and sell it, and more are needed to service it. So, how do you get more money into the hands of the consumers? Stop taking so much. Reduce the double and triple taxes. Don't punish investors by taxing the profit. Level the tax burden by going to a percentage program, where everyone pays the exact same percentage. The rich will pay more and the poor will pay less. But it will be fair. YOu want to make more, become worth more. earn it. don't whine and beg for hand outs. Do what I did and pay for your own education and go out and find a better job. It can be done. If you have the determination and the desire and the skills, you cannot be stopped. THAT'S A CONSERVATIVE VALUE. A LIBERAL VALUE IS PUBLIC HAND OUTS and TAX FUNDED JOB PROGRAMS. I was listening to the lead dem pres canidate, and his plan was BUILD THE INFRASTRUCTURE, SPEND MONEY ON RENOVATING SCHOOLS AND highways, and public buildings. This will elevate the poor class to a productive tax payer. Except it is tax money that will have to pay for this. And so every store clerk that wants to make more needs to be a ditch digger????? |
Most people can afford to pay a little more for gas. Sure, they'd grumble and moan, but most gas station attendants work hard. If you don't like paying for gas, then don't. Use your own two feet, a bicycle or public transit. That way you don't have to pay insurance either. It's simply not fair to spend all the tax money on schools in wealthy areas. I happened to be lucky and went to one of the best public high schools in the state. But if the teachers are better and the school actually has money to educate the students, then they're more likely to stay in school and off the streets. Less crime, more college graduates, less people on welfare and food stamps. I'm disagree on your view of the economy. It's not in the hands of the consumer so much as in the hands of the investor. Consumers spend their money because they need to pay rent, buy food, clothing etc. It's the investors that pay little more than slave wages overseas, isolating themselves from the idea of paying anyone a decent wage. Don't expect to get anything for free. It doesn't mean always spending money, but time. Time is very important. Do you know who your neighbors are? Are you involved in your children's schools? Talk to people and relax a little, this should help you to make a difference. |
have you bitchslapped a conservative today? there are moments where i welcome the cleansing effect of nuclear holocaust. |
To stop whining and moaning about not making enough and expecting a hand out. Gas station attendents and wal mart clerks and stockmen do these jobs because they choose to. No one forces you to do a damn thing. |
Most people don't want a hand out. They want a helping hand so they can raise themselves to the point where they'll never need another hand out. It could mean a free meal, somebody to talk to, job training. There are people who look for free handouts, most people aren't. Because if you learn to depend on handouts, then they're gone, so are your resources. And without gas station attendents and wal mart clercks and stockmen, what are you going to do? Pump your own gas for that oversized SUV? Wander about WalMart for hours to find some piece-of-shit item hidden away and then ring it up yourself? Stay online day in, day out, have everything delivered to your door whilest you become some oversized social graceless cavedweller? Pehaps not the economy, but society itself rests on the bodies of servicepeople everywhere, whether you like it or not. |
you get inflation if you start paying people too much. that's why the minimum wage keeps going up-- because a dollar won't buy what it used to because you have to pay the service people more. every cent extra you pay the labor that produces a product or provides a service increases the cost of the product or service. paying people at the bottom more doesn't benefit them, and it just hurts the economy. it seems cold, but our conservative capitalist economics really does serve the poor better than any other system we know of. |
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That is a statistical fact. Investors don't want to invest in a company if consumers are not interested in it. Consumer interest drives investors decisions. So it is in the hands of the consumers. |
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bring it on. |
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If it took more than one year to raise the minimum wage I lost money. Since during that time I was getting small raises, every time congress raised the minimum wage there went my raises. I was back to making the same thing a new hire was earning. And, every thing I bought at the store would have a price increase soon there after. So I never got ahead that way. |