| THIS IS A READ-ONLY ARCHIVE FROM THE SORABJI.COM MESSAGE BOARDS (1995-2016). |
|---|
Come on...I know everybody has an opinion. It's time to pony up and have Eschelon record them for posterity. |
Can you imagine all the anti-American shit they hear through the intelligence grapevine, all the threats. Trying to determine which is legitimate and which isnt seems near impossible. |
I'm sure they get innundated every day with all kinds of warnings, 99.9999% of which never come true. Plus, how could anyone ever imagine anyone using hijacked planes as missiles into tall buildings. Assuming the White House even saw the report, the thought was probably, OK, if we do get a hijacking situation such as the one reported, we scramble on them, and escort them down or shoot them down before they have a chance to divebomb into the Pentagon or CIA. Apart from the rage and hate I felt on 9/11, I couldn't help myself from thinking how brilliant the plan was and how brilliantly it was executed. This time, I'm siding with Cheney who warned against the Democrats playing politics with this issue. Now's not the time. Sure, the ball was dropped, but that was most likely because of the compartmentilization of departments and bureaucracies, and turf wars, keeping information for one's self. |
the cocksuckers will politicize anything right now. |
|
|
|
which means the senate goes back to the repubs, which means Bush & Co. get what they want. |
Umm, not really since Gringbitch and Star are out of the picture. The current repubs are, for the most part whimps. And Dougie had it right on the nose. I KNOW that the gov't is always receiving warnings. Somebody with their nose out of joint somewhere pops off a threat and promises to fight to the last breath at least once a week. Common sense says drop this one, boys. And, that _Salon_ article was dated in 1999. Why is bush even mentioned in it? He was still govenor of texas then, and Clinton was in the white house. What we should be really looking at is how in the hell someone on the "watch list" was able to get on that plane with weapons and fly into the world trade center? Why do the NSA and CIA and FBI not talk to eachother? I can tell you. Classified information. You do not share it with anyone in even another office, let alone AGENCY. |
|
Everyone whines about defense spending. Until they need it. |
Spunk, the article was written on May 17, 2002 citing a 1999 study. Whats bullshit about this issue is that Dems are politicizing it at all. Especially Hillary. You know she has a bone to pick. There was clearly a redtape/bureauocratic break down here. There is no one man or agency to blame for 9/11. |
|
|
|
does anyone honestly think that Bush knew that terrorists were fixin to use two US jets to try to burn the twin towers to the ground and whack the pentagon? and that he just let it happen? i mean, i'm no republican, but i give the man a little more credit than that. i think US intelligence knew for sure that something was going to happen, maybe they even knew it was going to happen on Sept. 11th, but that they didn't know exactly what or how. certainly they didn't have enough information to do something preventative... and what could they have done? let's say they did know. perhaps some sort of warning should have been issued. what exactly would you have liked to have known about what the government was speculating would happen? how many days notice would you liked to have had? a day? a week? a month? what would you have done with this knowledge? not traveled on a plane? not go to work or school? cancel your golf game? start building a bomb shelter? have you taken a moment to contemplate the pros and cons of the entire world being warned that great acts of terrorism were about to be committed against the US on US soil? if so, please share some of them here. i'd be interested in hearing that kind speculation. and what should the US military have done? shoot down four hijacked US jets *before* they crashed into anything? jeeezis, could you imagine what all sorts of hell would have resulted from that outcome? the President of the United States commanding the US Military to shoot down US jets with US citizens in them...? think about the implications of that. sure, in retrospect, we can say it would have been better than what actually happened, but then who would have been the enemy? the US military or the hijackers? again, even if US intelligence did have enough information, what the hell should the government and military have done? the government is fallible, yes. they make huge fucking mistakes, yes. our governors need to be made accountable for their action, yes. sometimes government officials learn from their mistakes. we've offically been issued a warning by Cheney to expect more acts of terrorism on our soil before the end of the year, and to expect suicide bombers walking among us. as far as i'm concerned, i really can't be bothered to wonder how much Bush knew about what happened on Sept. 11th. what's done is done. i assert that while the issue does need to be examined and addressed, in the case of this war i do not consider our government to be the enemy. al-Quaida and other terrorist groups around the world are the enemy. this coming from someone who asserts that: a) global capitalist colonization is an act of cultural and economic terrorism, and b) our government always acts first in the best interest of its own economy and second in the best interest of the overall well-being of its constituency. |
im with sarah 100% on this matter. I also believe they are engaged in scare tactics cover their ass. I believed we'd be subjected to more terrorist attacks well before Cheney mumbled that crap on MSNBC this weekend. This is not news people. I think its a scare campaign to keep us interested and distracted at the same time. The media has become an evil tool. Just last night, flipping channels, I came across some show on CBS i think it was, some show about the US military, Navy etc. Wings maybe? I dunno, one of those patriotic bullshit doomsday scenario shows that old people love to watch. Anyway, the episode taking place was of a Chechnyan terrorist who bought a Russian sub from Iran, armed it with a stolen US cruise missle loaded with radioactive materials. the sub was headed for the Persian gulf to bomb a carrier group. Simultaneously there were scenes of the US in Afghanistan fighing al Qaida there. What struck me is that this is so god damn real time. The immediacy seems unprecendented. When M*A*S*H came out, it was years after the Korean war. China Beach, years after Vietnam etc.. All the TV shows of American wartime were made well after the fact. This one is real time almost. Remember when the media moguls got together with the Bush administration almost a month after 9/11? Well it seems the agreed to take the position that 'hey we can't show you the REAL footage of the bloodshed going on around the world, so we'll show you this made up stuff created in the SoCal desert just 4 weeks ago.' Does anyone else find this scenario disturbing? I had another Sorabji dream. I distinctly remember sarah in my dream, at this place, a beach front or something. Then my creepy uncle who likes to say inappropriate things showed up. I dont remember much more, other than sarah didnt necessarily look like sarah, but it was her. thank you goodnight. |
the US military had plenty of intelligence information well beforehand that Japanese fighter planes were getting ready to be dispatched for attack on the US. but at 6 a.m. (hawaiian time) on december 7, 1941, the first Japanese attack fleet of 183 planes took off from aircraft carriers 230 miles north of Oahu. at 7:02 a.m., two army operators at a radar station on Oahu's north shore picked up Japanese fighters approaching on radar. they contacted a junior officer who **disregarded** their sighting, thinking that it was the US B-17 bombers which were expected to arrive that day from the west coast. whoooooops. yet another huge fucking mistake. wonder if those guys made it out of the radar tower alive. |
I always thought that our time would be better spent, not pointing fingers (although I do want the truth known) but rather figuring out the best way to prevent this from happening in the future (as much as possible). Then again, that's just me. |
|
Korea, it was in subtext a commentary on Vietnam. |
|
i did not say population. i said constituency. our government always acts first in the best interest of its own economy and second in the best interest of the overall well-being of the people in this country who vote (and/or who bribe). |
because of our strong, capitalist economy, the constituency of the US government has better well-being than any other country on earth. the best interest of our economy is the best interest of the constituency. |
|
I started this thread so we could talk about the issue, not to make a point. Anyway... sarah: "again, even if US intelligence did have enough information, what the hell should the government and military have done?" They could have arrested the terrorists before they did the deed, much like Zacarias Moussaoui was arrested. If the FBI had listened to the agent in Phoenix, it wouldn't have been too difficult. At least they could have tried. "i assert that while the issue does need to be examined and addressed, in the case of this war i do not consider our government to be the enemy." What if the government is so incompetent that they do not protect us? What are they then? |
incompetent. no i dont gain any kind of satisfcation from insulting people. I just want to know what you propose. just take the obvious democrat witchhunt out of play. |
|
|
|
providers of social programs. duh. |
"I'd have to say that a witch hunt about why Sept 11th happened is much better than a witch hunt about why a blow job happened." maybe but its a withhunt all the same. its pretty much a given that the right did everything they could to get Clinton out, or at least distract him enough to be an ineffective president. Lets not continue the cycle huh? Sure, lets get to the bottom of things but lets not politicize it. Thats petty. |
|
|
As much as I am NOT a fan of Clinton, I didn't agree with that witch hunt either. In the end we wound up a wounded nation, and a laughing stock to the world. If we continue to waste energy pointing fingers it will be the same. We will be a laughing stock and we will be a wounded nation, as if we aren't wounded enough already. There are many more important things for us to focus on right now. Should the truth be known? Yes. Should it be some major witch hunt taking up our time, our energy, and possibly incumbering the work of the president? No. Even if it was proven that he had total knowlege of every single aspect of this attack (which I highly doubt) and he is "impeached" he will still be in office, just as Clinton was. It is time to do better work with our time, and work to heal our nation and correct problems we have worldwide. |
|
Antigone, i totally agree that mistakes were made and people did not take actions they should have taken. they should have arrested the terrorists before the deed, but do we know if the FBI or other agencies had enough evidence to do so? they arrested Moussaoui because they had hard evidence that he broke a law - learning how to navigate a plane without learning to take off or land. perhaps they did have enough evidence to arrest the others, or maybe they didn't. i honestly don't know. i'm also not against examining the issue of why Bush chose to withhold whatever amount of information he had regarding what was to happen on sept. 11th. i think it's important to ask questions. but i think the most important question to ask is "why", and not assume by withholding whatever it was that he knew that Bush did something wrong politically, philosophically, or morally. we also cannot assume that it would be in best interest of national security that the whole world know whatever he knew ahead of time. unfortunately the general public knows jack shit about national security, and i'd argue that in most cases it's in our overall well-being not to know. could public knowledge of the possibility or inevitability of terrorism in some way prevented what happened? or lessened the damage and lives lost? or should we know just because we're americans and dammit we have the constitutional right to know? just some thoughts... |
|
|
I normally don't venture out of my online agoraphobia but here goes: My original contention was that the Whole Thing was a carefully orchestrated political scheme to ensure the public and political sanction and desecration of the Alaskan Wilderness and the safety of an oil pipeline through Afganistan ... all the while hoping a little military action might stimulate an otherwise dead economic picture... all of which obviously backfired, and by which the public, the politicians, and terrorist and patriot alike were momentarily horrified at the incredible mistake and outcome. I say momentarily unless of course you lost someone on those flights or in those buildings or lost your job this week at Boeing because of the aftermath. The situation and its reverberating aftermath are Much, Much worse than LBJ and Vietnam, the largest political backfire and coverup of the second half of the 20th century, I might add. But then again, I wasn't around during the first half, Pearl Harbor and WWII or WWI... but no one back then possessed the technology, the intelligence gathering network, and the computer simulations we have today. What happened should not have happened given the technology available, given the warnings heeded or not, and given the World Climate of Terrorism... against which the continental US has largely insulated itself. Again, the failure of technological culture, or rather the result of bureaucratic apathies and a deluded populace, both lulled into complacency, thinking technology would prevent this sort of thing, that It Will Never Happen Here. But it did. It may again. Ask anybody from Belfast NI. We Americans have been so smug and secure; still the former in our ignorance and denial, nevermore the latter in this harsh 21st C reality. Our man Bush is a stooge, and stands wondering just what the hell he's got himself into. A continuation of the Bushism corruption of his daddy's administration? Nonetheless. The people and the organizations and the corporations behind him ... knew a lot more than will ever be told. Just my opinion. Whoops, the men in black are at my door again. |
|
That was not about sex. It was about getting on camera and wagging a finger and lying to the American Public. Intentionally. Repeatedly. And twisting meanings of phrases such as "sexual relations" does not include oral sex and "is". It was about him thinking we were so dumb we would believe his lie about not inhaling. Oh, and perjury. Who cares who the creep slept with. I could not blame him for not wanting Hillary. |
I hate to admit it, but I watched Celebrity Boxing last night -- I saw Manute Bol "fight" William the Fridge Perry, and Joey Buttafucker fight China. Surely, that show signals the death knell for civilization as we know it. What is it about these freaks like Buttafuoco and Darva Conger who will do anything to keep their names and faces in the media? And on the same token, what does it say about me watching this crap? (Retract your claws kids, no need to answer -- that was rhetorical.) |
|
|
|
|
was it under the table because the right was forcing it under the table while the fucko media was lapping it up like a pussy and cream? You imply Clinton had something to do with the media field day, allowing him to squirm under the table with more ease. |
i believe you're looking for another word. |