At a church, this time, not a school. It happened around an hour ago, and the network stations in the area are (understandably) all over it. It's disheartening when mass-shootings start to seem generic: kamikaze loner(s) with a short fuse, a vendetta against some group or other, and firepower. And now the t.v. tells us that they've found (still active?) incindeary devices around the area. Wierd. Partly because people have died, but mostly because it happened ten minutes away from me. At the rate things like this keep happening, we'll all be cannon fodder for some disgruntled head case within the next 20 years. Knowing today's bloodthirsty media, this'll be national news by tomorrow morning. I wonder if the backlash (mourning, search for an explanation, etc.) will be more or less pronounced than with previous shootings? Or maybe there won't be a national backlash at all. After all, it *is* Texas ;)

Count on the politicians to exploit it on behalf of the children.

well, it's already on cnn online. i was waiting at a light on w. berry str. (in fort worth) when a big police suburban with the words "crime scene" on it and a motorcycle cop behind him pulled up next to me. it was about 7:10. when i got to my friend's house i said, "is there something i should know?" and she told me about the shooting not 5 minutes away from where we were.

Megadittos to that, Simon! Exploit, yeah, that's the word. This once great country has been hijacked by slick politicians who've probably never even carried a laser guided bazooka with a uranium load on their pickup's gun rack! Count on those sneaky lowlifes to try to blow this all out of proportion and use it to make it tougher to obtain the plastique us real Americans need for self defense, target practice, and small game hunting.

It was at a Baptist church in Fort Worth and there wasn't a single person there with a concealed handgun. Fucking amazing. I mean that in all seriousness. But I'm betting that will change. I'm betting that applications for permits will shoot up here (I'm in Dallas) and in the rest of Texas. Politicians use this to enact gun control? Maybe anywhere else in the world, but not in the lone star state. If that church previously banned the carrying of concealed weapons, you'd better believe that it will change it's policy tomorrow. And this event will no doubt reinforce the belief by bible belters that these are the end times. The righteous are being persecuted, just like in Columbine, just like Revelations said they would be...

I struggle to understand what it must be like to live in a country where these murderous rampages are becoming almost commonplace. We have just had Bill Clinton in town, and the security for him was unlike anything we have seen before. Even the Queen didn't have so many goons protecting her. I still think gun control must be a part of the answer. But how do you teach people to respect each other, when everyone is focussed on their "rights", without regard to how that will impact on other people. The more I look at the world and the US in particular, the more I wonder if we can survive as a species. After all, we have the technology available to deal with almost any external problem, including disease, extreme weather, etc, but we can't seem to recognise that as individuals, we are weak. It is our communities that have the potential for strength, but this is being whittled away by individuals clamouring for attention. Well, thats my depressing thought for the day. Must feed cat before he eats me!

bite me holden

All I know is you can get killed at school,banks,resturants,and now church,this is why I hit the floor everytime I hear a car backfire.

DIE BAPTISTS DIE!!!!! we are a nation under siege. the baptists are a constant thorn in the side of the free people of america. when a whacko walks into a meeting of whackos and dispatches a few of them, you don't cry over the dead. you thank the lord that there are that many less whackos on the earth. this is the equivelant of a death row guard going balistic and taking out 7 inmates. chalk it up as a gain.

NZ, thats a wonderful way to view wtf is going on here. people's heads are so far up their own ass, americans are so egocentric, MY SUV, MY GUN, MY RIGHTS my right to drive the biggest gas guzzling a/c cd player equipped truck fuck . nevermind the fuck behind me who can't see, never mind the air I am fucking twice as fast as that honda over there, never mind the fact my prick is so small i need to make up for lost masculinity with a large vehicle, a MANSIZED status symbol it's fucked up, and these cowards, these self-depreciating assholes who go and blwo away a bunch of innocent people and then doesn't have the balls to face the public so he shoots himself.....fucking pussy, fucking coward!!! i will say it again, and maybe cyst will get the bitch slappin, shit slingin fight she was lookin for......guns guns guns guns bad bad bad bad , if they weren't for sale to the public these things may not happen. If they had brains 30,40,80 years ago they would have forseen this violent nation and stopped then, or hell even before then, at the turn of the century. Hey fuckers we killed the indians, no Navjo left, the wildlife has receeded into the woods and the Bristish aren't coming back!!!!! You can come out now....put the musket on the rack above the fireplace to sell at the antique auction 100 years from now............but so many fucks will start screaming "my rights my rights my rights to own a deadly weapon my rights my rights" FUCK YOU! remember in school when one fuck snot nosed booger eatin bitch fucked up, the whole class suffered? Remember the idea of working as a community? Well community....we have failed. we have proven time and time again we cannot handle the reponsibility of owning guns, SO NO GUNS FOR ANYONE! If hunters want to hunt their stupid animals. Well it's should be privatized and treated like a bowling alley. You, go and check out yer orange vest and deer pussy spray. You check out you gun...all for a rental fee and then you have your "green fees" and off you go with all the others on a 5000 acre piece of land reserved. NAd then when you are done, their is a "19th hole" you can come back, skin and clean your kill, drink a beer and share stories with the other MEN who confirmed their manhood that day. otherwise any one who still thinks it's alright to own a gun, who thinks its ok to pack heat, it's alright to "defend" yourself ..i suggest you go back and study your MLK, your Ghandi your Thoreau and shut the fuck up!!! fuck

bang bang. you're already dead. stuff your kids' coffins with the second amendment and drop 'em down the hole.

Sniping, Simon?

L.O.L.

hey waffles, who has the assault rifles in LA? they're illegal, you know. sleep tight.

well OBVIOUSLY i have no way of knowing that....moreover it's hardly irrelavent WHO has them, the fact is people have them, good people and bad people. Although I know certain cops (like district chiefs and Sgts)are carrying m-16's in their trunks now. Shot guns are no longer effective.

I'm still trying to purchase a SAM (surface to air missile).....for duck hunting.....of course

i know a buddy in china town that can help you with that

la county should also be commended for not allowing the big assed bi-annual gun show back to town, at least it won't be held at the fair grounds anyway, country property that is. The company is bitchin and moaning but the hell with them

"it's hardly irrelavent WHO has them" exactly. you make them illegal and only criminals and cops will own them. which is the problem. i don't want either to have better firepower than i.

The duck or the missile? Waffles it's too late to control the guns now. So maybe a better idea is we teach elementry school kids gun safety and target practice then when they reach a certain age they will be required to carry a gun. Then when pussy faced babycakes decides he's mad at the world and wants to go down to school/church/mall/etc...and shoot people, maybe the thought of 200 or 300 guns firing back at him will correct his attitude.

you'd make a damn good baptist, nate

well nate, suspected thats where you were headed, and i banged heads with Lucy on that point, i just don't subscribe to that way of thinking, it just seems counter productive. It was that mentality that brought the cold war weapons proliferation to fruition.....it's like fighting kids in a sand box......actions and reactions based soley out of fear.....rather than logic and common sense. if it were my world...drugs would be legalized and taxed, no more gang wars for the best chiba, there would no longer be territories to drug dealers.......no longer the need for deceit and violence with the drugs because the gov't would be handling the manufacture and sale of it. Junkies wouldn't have to rob in order to cop dope. and then next we take away the sale of guns to general public. Sure there will be criminals with guns, but that lessens the chance that jimmy bob who will go crazy to day at 5 will have an opportunity tomorrow to purchase that 9mm so he can blast up his chruch and family. Sure he may be able to get a gun, via more difficult criminal ways, but there is a good chance he will be caught......eitherway, gun abolishment is better than none, it's a start and then we can only hope the american mentality will change with it.... and beav, I HARDLY subscribe to that

oh an beav i was referring to the duck......

FB -- For some reason, that idea of yours struck me as a good one... But it passed... Could we be any worse off then we are now? <shrug>

You took me just a little too serious. How about flak jackets and kevlar helmets as the new school uniform policy.

The way things are going if my kids were going to school now,I,d home school them.

So long as men desire to live together, no man may initiate the use of physical force against others....When a man attempts to deal with me by force, I answer him—by force. It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had the right to choose: his own.

i have no brilliant or enlightened views or suggestions for gun control. i just feel like typing. and maybe i can clog up this thread. fort worth - i think this happened in '92. I had gone to benbrook lake with 7 friends to build a fire and drink a few beers. We weren't by the lake, but in the woods around it alongside a sort of creek coming from the lake. A road cut into the woods (there was a fairly thick canopy overhead) with campsites of one concrete picnic table and a little driveway at intervals. two campsites over from us a bunch of metal heads were having a party - metallica blasting and a lot of yelling and hooting and the whole thing. we sat around our fire and played acoustic guitars and drank beer. then, later on, i heard that pop pop pop sound. at first i just thought they were busting bottles on the fire, but then they started screaming and scrambling around and a few more shots were fired. my friends and i ducked behind our cars. a big, beat-up old car sped off. after waiting to see if the coast was clear, we went over to see if we could be some help. 3 people in all had been shot, as far as i can remember, but only one was hurt badly - shot through the stomach. one of my friends went of with his girlfriend to find a phone. all of the metalheads (who mostly in their early 20's) were pretty badly shaken - there was one girl who hadn't been hit at all who just sat in the middle of the road screaming "what the fuck did we do?" over and over. one of my friends shocked me by saying "ah, they probably deserved it." Anyway, we tried to get the ones who'd been shot settled and at least calm the other ones down. One friend of mine, brad, made sort of a make-shift bed for the guy who'd been hit in the stomach. Brad sat with the guy cradled in his arms saying "it'll be alright, man" till the cops and paramedics came. and they came out in force. there was at least one fire truck, three ambulances, and cop cars all over the place. there was also a helicopter overhead shining its searchlight through the canopy. coming through the leaves it was mottled light and dark patches moving quickly and kind of looked like water in a storm. we gave our statements and finally let us go. as i am driving down the country road leading out of the lake i hit another hive of cop cars at an intersection. the three guys who had done the shooting (who had already been identified as "some mexicans) had failed to taken into account the fact that the road at the intersection jogged to the left, and they had gone straight through it and into a ditch. the police had found them there in the ditch unconscious. the cops asked me a few questions and waved me through. the next day the event was on the news as "a rumble of sorts" mentioned almost in passing. a few months later i am back at the lake with brad. brad is pissed off about something, and tries to get into a fight with some other guy for breaking branches off the trees for firewood (which is illegal). I watch him go over to this guy and do all the posturing. then they get into a conversation and talk for 20 minutes. i am sitting with joe, the one who said "the deserved it." brad comes back to our campsite and says, "you know whow that was? that was they guy who'd been shot in the stomach." 3 years later i am sharing a ramshackle house with brad. one evening, while i'm sitting in the living room, brad bursts in the front door with a wild look on his face, heads straight for the fridge, grabs a beer and guzzles it. while he was riding his motorcycle back home on camp bowie, the major street near our place, some guy and a girl in a car started playing chicken with him. at first he didn't mind, because people do that sometimes, but when they nearly ran him off the road, he started chasing after them. he followed them to an apartment complex. when the guy and girl pull up in front of one apartment, they honked the horn and some other guy opens the door and immediately opens fire on brad. he got out of there fast, unharmed. we didn't bother to call the police. bang. pow.

God damn people can be such assholes! One phrase that sticks in my head is, "guns don't kill people; people kill people". It's true. Go ahead, take away all the guns. People won't get shot anymore, that's true. But people will still kill people. You could kill someone with a pencil. I don't know about the whole gun thing. I mean, making them illegal would probably lessen some of the killing. But I have no doubt that it would sure as hell not stop altogether. And with the whole road rage issue, the next thing that would happen would be motorists running people down with their vehicles. It's a mad, mad, mad, mad, mad world. We need to educate people about value of life and compassion and soul. I just can't see blaming all of these killings on guns. The incident that happened at Columbine I heard was mostly bombs. Parents need to spend more time with their kids and really talk to them. Really get to know them. Has anyone seen the movie "American History X"? That movie made me cry. It was very touching. It wasn't just a black and white thing either. It's no longer one racial group hating another nowadays. It's more like EVERY racial group hating EVERY other race. When people kill because they're racist, they just purpetuate (sp?) the hating between racists. If a white man killed a black man b/c he was black, then it would be much easier for the family of the black man to say "I hate all white people". The same goes for any nationality. It's all bullshit. What the fuck is wrong with all these goddamned people? You know what I think? I think people should have to take a test before they're able to have kids. And the test should have a section where it tests to see if you're racist or not (but of course it should not be known to the people taking the test b/c it is so easy to lie, you know?). If they show even the slightest hint of being a racist, then they should not be able to have kids. That shit just needs to stop being passed down.

i really really really need a new job, and possibly a house in southern france americans are gettin on my nerves

I'm with you on that one Waffles...

FUCK THE FRENCH! jesus crispies people.

is that a proposition Nate?

uh. it's more of a battle cry, i think. which reminds me, it's been awhile, eh Pamela? you need one of my escorts for the night? i think ricardo would do you well.

there was a story on the news this morning about a guy who saw someone stealing his car stereo. he chased down the thief and got his stereo back and went home. later that evening, car stereo owner hears a knock at his door, he answers it and, whoa, there's the thief standing at his front door. thief shoots car stereo owner in the chest. i guess the moral is, if someone's stealing your car stereo, shoot them before they get a chance to come back and shoot you in the chest while you're standing in your front doorway.

*giggle* Yes it's been awhile, but my husband is going to come see me this weekend! He'll be here tonight! Besides, I'm a one man woman, even if he isn't here at the momment. I've got morals you know. *giggle*

That is just a bunch of bullshit. I can't believe the way us humans think nowadays. "Oh that man I was stealing from pissed me off b/c he caught me so I'm gonna go bust a cap on his ass," FUCK THAT Society makes me sick. What the hell happened to make all these people think they have the right to just go around killing people? Or stealing for that matter. That just fucking pisses me off.

ahh come on baby........lets cyber until the hubby comes home........Fuck the french INDEED!

friendly's right. guns aren't much of a defense. people who want to have "more firpower than the criminals" seem to assume that you're going to have time to pull you gun, hide behind something and fire. the majority of people who get shot have had no warning. nobody squares off and says "draw" or whatever. it's all random and unscripted.

I am retracting that last post.......

LOL <wink><wink> Waffles, no need to retract. Cyber flirting isn't immoral, is it? LOL

the criminal is less likely to attempt a crime if he thinks there is a possibility that the victim is packing. this is proved over and over again... every state that has enacted carry concealed legistation has seen a marked reduction in crime when the laws have gone into effect.

Random and Unscripted, Take 1: Thug: (producing weapon)Gimme your wallet now fucker! Typical Victim: (reaching for back pocket)Okay, man, whatever you want, please don't hurt me! Director's note: At this point, T knows he's in control and is anticipating his haul from the sheep. Meanwhile, T.V. produces wallet from back pocket, and hands it to T, who may leave him alone, or may kill or maim him because he can. Either way, T chose the opportunity because there are no witnesses and after it goes down he can walk away scot-free. Random and Unscripted, Take 2: Thug: (producing weapon)Gimme your wallet now fucker! Non-Typical Victim: (reaching for back pocket)Okay, man, whatever you want, please don't hurt me! Director's note: At this point, T knows he's in control and is anticipating his haul from the sheep. Meanwhile, N.T.V. produces snub-nosed .357 magnum from back pocket, and torches off two rounds into T's torso before he even has time to be surprised. N.T.V knows that T chose the opportunity because there are no witnesses and after it goes down he can walk away scot-free.

And remember: N.T.V. also stands for No TeleVision! The moral? Good guys pack good arms, and good guys DO NOT subscribe to cable.

god damned this aint the wild west folks.....TV is dead the split second T sees the gun being brought around his side...T fires, TV fires back, they both are dead. Fucking genius.

That wouldn't happen if he had his flak jacket and Kevlar helmet on....goddammit!!!

Don't people go to church with the goal of going to Heaven? Maybe the shooter was God's tour guide. :o)

And you speak this from experience, Waffles, am I correct? That worn-out line about "I don't have anything that's worth dying for" is used by people who have no dignity and no self-respect. "Living" without those is not a life at all, and would be far worse than dying any day. I look at it like this: I don't have anything that's worth somebody ELSE dying for, but if anyone ever wants to test that theory, so be it. It's not, as droopy put it, "random and unscripted." Most violent crime victims CHOOSE to be victims and telegraph their willingness to acquiesce through body language, demeanor and attitude. Wolves prey on sheep, not on lions. I don't actually believe that you've ever seriously read a word of Ghandi, or MLK, or Ayn Rand, and I don't believe you've ever been in a serious, life-threatening situation that did not involve large quantities of drugs or alcohol. Therefore I consider your opinions on this matter to be mindless pop-platitudes. It's not meant to be a personal attack, I just don't think you have any credibility here, and should stick to topics where you have experience.

random and unscripted take 1: you contribute to the dysfunction of an already fucked-up society which is far too violent and immature to handle a "right to bear arms". the "regulated militia" verbage in the second amendment is ignored, guns are sold like candy, and the only distinction between a "law abiding citizen" and a "criminal" is the pull of a trigger. while you fight for your right to protect yourself, your children inherit a society that ar more fucked up than the one you inherited yourself. chaos ensues while the rest of the world collectively scratches their head and wonders "why". everybody dies. including you. because that cap was already way up your ass as soon as random thug#1 decided to put it there. now he has two guns.

ah come on Simon, you post is rather pompous. First to speculate on what I have read and what i haven't read is silly and furthermore to speculate on my life experiences is pointless. NO, I have never been a life threatening situation, is that relavent? To call my opinion mindless is insulting, disagree all you like but don't be an ass about it. So if I have never been held at gunpoint my opinion is not valid? How silly is that? I have read MLK (Letters from the Brimingham Jail and several other essays and speeches in various high school and college classes), excerpts from The Fountain Head, several essays by Ghandi in high school, and studied Thoreau's "Civil Disobedience" extensively. For 2 years I was a sociology major. I have done my reading and for you to question that is just bullshit. I don't lie, and I don't pull shit outta my ass, so knock it off, I have never questioned your opinions or words, just merely spoke mine instead. Secondly, I do have things worth dying for, my wife, a few close friends, and my freedom. To say I would never take up arms to protect my liberty and freedom is a misconception. However, for me to anticipate the destruction of our somewhat free society by packing heat now IS indeed pointless. Don't you see that that we are in fact encouraging the dismantling of our freedoms by possesing guns and by the fact that people are using them for all the wrong reasons. Look at Russia right now. The place is a police state, they have detained 100s of people because of the bombs that keep going off. Would they have detained these (innocent, most likely) people had these bombs not gone off? Everytime a bullet is launched from a barrel into the body of an innocent victim, thats one more notch on the post for the police state. I completely agree that predators prey on the sheep not lions bit..I know this and I carry myself accordingly. But I would dare say this is truely the case anymore, at least not with the current popularity of random violence. It's called random violence because well, ITS JUST THAT. Nonsensical, random violence. To call all the kids who got shot up at Columbine, the church, the Jewish center and wherever else sheep is just wrong. Don't you see the difference of this type of crime than say the crime of being assaulted on a dark street late at night. Those folks got shot while their backs were turned, they were supposed to be in a safe environment, their killings were completely random. It just so happened suzy sue was in the library at the time the kids started dropping pipe bombs everywhere. We will always have fucked up people, people with serious chemical imbalances that will make them want to take out the entire staff of a McDonalds, we can't stop that. But WE can stop the sale of guns. I'm sorry you really think my opinion is pointless and unfounded, if thats the case, then disregard it. Otherwise, i still say we should regulate hunting like bowling...........

not everyone who shoots a gun is a wolf, not everyone who gets hit is a lamb. i know this for a fact. children, idiots, psychos, average joes, etc. can all get guns. the likelyhood of a situation like simon's non-typical victim example is remote. i've never known anyone who was shot or shot at to be in a situation like that. and none of them knew what was going on till a gun was out and bullets flying. life is random, throw a gun into the randomness and it's going to go off god knows where. all simon is hearing is anti-gun rhetoric, i guess. but i know whereof i speak. hell, i carried a gun for eight years, the worthless hunk of metal. i just think you're all fucked-up when you talk about studies and the psychology of criminals.

The idea of no more guns/gun sales is nice, but how are you going to pull that one off. It will be just like prohibition and the "war on drugs". Until you come up with a workable plan, I'm keeping my guns. Yes I could be randomly killed with no chance to use my gun, but what chance do I have without it. You need to change our society's love for violence first. How you're going to do that I don't know. In the mean time I'll be snuggling one of my guns. Just think if one other person in that church was carrying maybe 8 wouldn't be dead.

Bowling is regulated???

I was referring to this comment i made the other day Beav. "If hunters want to hunt their stupid animals. Well it's should be privatized and treated like a bowling alley. You, go and check out yer orange vest and deer pussy spray. You check out you gun...all for a rental fee and then you have your "green fees" and off you go with all the others on a 5000 acre piece of land reserved. NAd then when you are done, their is a "19th hole" you can come back, skin and clean your kill, drink a beer and share stories with the other MEN who confirmed their manhood that day." To make the equation of prohibition in the 20's of alcohol to the prohibition of guns is weak. Alcohol is considerd a drug. Guns aren't. It's apples and oranges. It would be interesting to find out that of all the guns sold in the next week, how many of them would be used in violent crimes. I would be willing to guess that at least 10-20 out of 2000 guns purchased in a weeks time. But THAT number is indeed pulled out of my ass, and I beg for clarification if anyone has any ideas.

(do russian citizens have the right to bear arms?)

I find it amazing that some states will ban firecrackers for blowing off kids hands but don't do a thng about other pieces of technology that blow off their heads. I think Swine has struck the closest to the heart of the matter: Gun violence is a symptom of a much bigger problem,and everyone knows treating the symptoms won't cure the disease. I think that we are in a time of transition when no one is certain what the common ground is between everyone anymore, when traditional roles and ways of life are being outmoded and nothing is taking their place, and that we're just going to have to sit tight and see what sorts itself out. Our society has grown so complex that it is virtually impossible to quickly change peoples minds on anything nowadays. Look how long it took (and is still taking) for certain parts of the country to accept ideas like racial and sexual equality, and to recognize the difference between the scientific method and theological reasoning. So, what we can do as individuals is to borrow a good idea from christians (stay with me here) the whole "What Would Jesus Do?" concept, which if actually applies in everyday life by a majority of folks identifying themselxes as christian, would probably result in a pretty right on society. I thik we can tkae jesus out of the equation and ask ourselves, "What action would make my society a better place to exist in?" granted, the intials "WWMMSABPTEI" ins't as catchy as "WWJD" (who wants jack daniels?).

Guns/alcohol = apples/oranges Yes it's true they are different but yet the same. By not changing attitudes only outlawing the item you create an illegal industry. Come on Waffles you know that. I understand that you want the peaceful safe community, who doesn't. I'm just saying that outlawing it doesn't cure it.

Oh yeah, Fireworks are illegal in IA so we drive 40 minutes south and buy them.

That would be WAWMMSABPTEI Sem... hmmm... I don't know, it's kinda catchy... but I definately agree with swine, sem and FB. Like I said earlier: Guns don't kill people; people kill people. But I am not totally against banning guns either. All I'm saying is I don't think that would solve the problem.

me me me me me me me I actually do think it sensible what you and swine said, yet being complacent gets us no where. Whether Russians have the right to bear arms is irrelavent. If they did, those bombs still would have gone off and hundreds of people would still be in jail right now. I'm sorry, I just don't hear any ideas on what to do.....taking awya the guns from retails sales seems to be a start. Since Simon mentioned Ayn Rand, I wonder what she would say of the state of things. I hardly believe the banning of guns is altruistic. In what seems such extreme times, I wonder if she would still be sticking to her objectivism guns. Could she in fact be succesful in a this society with so many distractions. has her support...ah fuck it......

LOL@FB it's so true though...

like i was saying beav.... "We will always have fucked up people, people with serious chemical imbalances that will make them want to take out the entire staff of a McDonalds, we can't stop that. But WE can stop the sale of guns." but we have to start somewhere. We can preach the gospel of non violence but sometimes direct action speaks lopuder than any rhetoric, The damage done to our societal pshyche will take generations to repair. How bout we aid those generations to come by making our actions inline with our non violent rhetoric.

I think we all know where we stand. I'm not going to rant anymore. Waffles, if I offended you I apologize for that.

well sure but it's healthy to mull around and toss the ole political nutsack around........and thanks for that simon it means a lot (crying like Mike Schmidtt)

I watched a documentry on war and the statistics of the number of men who actually pulled the trigger was very low during WWII but much higher in Korea and Vietnam . The difference was the use of computer simulations (aka video game) to desensitize the troops into killing without concern for that person. They have further perfected this with technology to now you don't even see the person or destruction. My point is with the proliferation of violent video games and movies comes the senseless killings. The gun is nothing more than a tool, it can protect or kill. Once something is done about the violent attitude, I will reconsider gun ownership. But it won't happen in this lifetime.

I usually avoid these debates but what the fuck, shoot a vegetarian and FUCK THE FRENCH! LOL :o)

Ayn Rand was a numb cunt. I have given up on figuring out what kind of regulations this asshole culture/cuntry needs. Fuck all of us entitled whiny bitches who expect that the laws should come down from DC or whatever State Capitol we have and then bitch about the Man. I don't care WHAT you sheeplike asslickers say, I am way more afraid of the cops than I am of the criminals. I feel more affiliation with the criminals, frankly. It frankly sucks that people are raised without a reverence for the frail miracle of life, any life. But you wanna know something? There is no natural right to life. Laws against murder are man made, social, political, and man if your polis isn't a living, breathing tough mutha then why would anyone subject themselves to its laws when they stand to live better and longer in disregard of those laws? And who is responsible, who is the life of the polis? Why, its citizenry. The same whining, bitching, sniveling citizenry that wants to put stickers on CDs so their kids don't accidentally here some bad black man or Frank Zappa saying a bad word. The same whining, sniveling, bitching citizenry that's always fighting to have tax bases for localities changed so their tax dollars don't end up beyond the security gates of their safe little communities. I don't have any point to this AT ALL, except that I'm starting to go all hard-core lean and mean libertarian in my advancing age. I want the right to bear arms because I don't trust the cops or the military or the people who command them. But I expect that it's my responsibility to make sure I get to keep that in the face of the overwhelming bleating of the people who WANT Big Brother to keep them safe. And if I lose that battle, there's still the pungee sticks and cat shit for when Martial Law is declared. Sometimes, low tech can be really effective. And, to reiterate, I LOATHE Ayn Rand. Whom I have read. As I have read MLK. And Gandhi. But there're bunches of people whose words have had bigger impact on me. Ahh, fuck it. And fuck the french.

You rock my world, margret.

Dammit, man, you took the words right out of my mouth. *big adoring smile* I've missed you, Margret! Kick my ass next, please!

aren't those lyrics to a madonna song? "strike a pose"?

Encore!! FEAR THE GOVERNMENT THAT FEARS YOUR GUN (I'm done)

I don't think russian citizens have the right to bear arms. I know the ukrainians don't, and they still have a lot of the same old soviet laws as the russians do. the grapes growing over my back porch are really, really good.