ok, trace & family: 1) define the purpose of this war. a) what are the goals of our military action? b) who is the enemy? c) what has the enemy done? 2) detail our authority a) why do we have the right to kill innocent people? b) why are we acting instead of the UN? 3) how do our actions not fit in with trace's definition of terrorism? 4) what is your interpretation of the goals of islamic terrorism? 5) why do islamic terrorists hate the US? 6) how will our actions reduce the incidence of terrorism in the future?

Can I feel your terrorists? I've never touched a real one before.

Ooooo, Nate's brought out the big gun(s) now.

Just out of curiousity, what do people think would be a good alternative to bombing? A lot of people raise this question. (personally, I turn to the example of the Berlin Wall, which was allowed to stand to prevent the greater of two evils--world war. Even though our policy about the Wall was inconsistent, at least we stuck with the core ideas. It might also be noted that the US believed that the Bloc would eventually collapse in on itself. although lots of people say that we can't stand by and do nothing, I think that's closer to the solution than bombing, because the Taliban is going to collapse in on itself. Why put ourselves in further jeopardy?)

Platypus, I understand what you are saying and asking. I wish that I knew of a good alternative to bombing. I can't stand by and do nothing. It is my nature to act. I need to feel like I am doing something for the simplest of reasons. For my children. I am afraid that if I said, let's just sit around and wait for the Taliban to collapse on itself, then I would be putting my children in the next WTC. I am the kind of person who would rather go down fighting for my beliefs then wait for them to fix themselves. There are a lot of people out there who think that my way of doing things are self defeating or creating what I am fearing. I understand where they are coming from as well. I respect what they have to say. I am constantly trying to grow and become a better person, and I am glad to have new ideas and thoughts presented to me, as you are doing now. I just feel like I have to fight for my beliefs, and will continue to do so. The best thing I can do for my family is be a living example of what I stand for and what I believe in. Again, I wish there was an alternative, but I just haven't been able to come up with one consistent with my beliefs. I am welcome to new ideas though.

Nate, Trace answered all of those questions on the previous strains. Duh. Sorry if you forgot his answers. Actually I would bet you just found them unacceptable, but then again, that goes both ways.

alternative? massive humanitarian aide. the taliban could easily self destruct if people were fed and not afraid to speak out. with no taliban, homey has no place to hide. i don't deny the potential use of special forces, but not this massive bombing. humanitarian aide would be a good place to start while mounting international economic, political and social pressure. to turn over those, to a world court. That would be a good place to start.

"It is my nature to act" you are given the gift of a brain. use it. its my nature, as a male, to impregnante indiscriminantly, but i don't. if your beliefs include war-mongering, then you are right at home. Id appreciate though, you not thwart such teachings on children. Their future is in my interest too you know. oh and to add.....an alternative solution. UN peace keepers and monitors in Israel & Palestine. See if we can bring that situation to a halt all together. Palestinian statehood. Removal of Israeli forces from Palestinian areas.

BOO.... Why Patty, what a pleasant surprise. Eri said the same exact things that I have been saying. Who's bytes are being wasted now, Patty Cake?

dani. i dont peddle sweaters on the internet you moron. i've talked about them here because people have inquired and offered good support to me, while my wife has ventured off on her own to start this design label, which produces said sweaters. they have all seen my daily accounts. the sweaters are sold in boutiques. for your information, i work for a publisher, and am a semi-pro photographer. your ability to have an opinion is not the problem here. your irregard is. though you are entitled such irregard, don't be surprised when people react negatively. You are the problem dani. yes you. we all are in many ways, but especially you, because unfortunately too many americans speak like you...including our president albeit a little more refined (which isnt saying much). my spelling & grammar has always been shitty here. Ive have explained repeatedly that its due to not always taking the time i should when I post. Ive always coped to it, so you aren't knocking me in anyway by pointing that out. Its pretty obvious....and in that regard dani... I have a red sparkly bouncy ball ...wanna play? Its a ball *bounce bounce bounce*.....see? my invitation for you to come to another thread was due to the size of the old one. It wasn't a bullshit request nor did it have anything to do with you personally. It was out of consideration. Hence I respond you here. rednecks need not be from the south. anyone who has seen Heavy Metal Parking lot will attest to that. Rednecks can come from anywhere. Its not where you are from that makes you a redneck. its ignorance of what you say. And the fact that you you say it without any regard for fact, logic or even reason.

you're not even making any sense dani. you're just makin an ass out of yourself.

And so are you. You are no better than me. Never have been and never will be. Sooner you get that through your thick skull, the better off you will be. There IS a reason to everything I say. MY reasons. And I've said time and time again, to bad if you or anyone else dont like them. As far as your occupation goes...way more than I needed/wanted to know. Dont care. And lets get another thing straight...you did NOT invite me to another thread and you have NEVER said anything remotely close to considerate to me so please stop making an ass out of yourself. I am free to travel around Sorabji.com as much as I want, when I want and where I want and I DONT need an invitation or approval from anyone. Another thing I have said time and time again is no one makes you or anyone else read anything I write and no one makes you reply. Why dont you and your nintendo buddy llama up there go have a little spot of tea together. That red ball dont sound good...you outta have that checked by a physician. Asshole. Shame on you for dumping on our president. He is doing the best thing for this country and you not standing by him and accepting his decisons makes you exactly what I said you were..a traitor.

Dani, at least you know he read the thread. Patrick, though I apreciate your point of view, I feel that it is too late to do some of the things you mentioned. It has already been tried and failed. The funny thing was, that I have always been a pacifist, until lately. As far as my war mongering. I stand up for my beliefs, and I am sorry if you disagree with them but it is your right to do so. It doesn't change how I feel or what I intend to do. As far as my children, they will learn from me. They will learn from my example. They will also learn to think for themselves, make their own decisions, and stand up for what they believe in. That is the best legacy I can teach them. I don't teach people to think as I think. I teach people to think for themselves. I don't know if this makes sense to you or aleviates your fears any. It is just honest truth.

eri, the answers to those questions have never been written coherently or in one place. obviously, since the answers to those questions undermine your whole, emotion based arguement. the taliban didn't knock down the WTC, dumbshit. all they have done is refused to extradite a criminal without evidence. which is exactly what we would have done. so, again, why are we going after the taliban?

TRAITOR!!! That pretty well sums it up.

You GO Girl!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you, Patrick, for being both an excellent human being *and* responding to the question I asked. And for promising to send my catalogue eventually...

They also refused to extradite a criminal for previous crimes, with evidence. Duh. Yeah, I'm the dumbshit. I didn't realize that it was a requirement to answer all kinds of questions you might ask later in the order or the coherence which you would like at a later date. I will keep that in mind later. As far as how emotional my argument is, I am not upset or angry. I am just calling it like I see it. I don't expect you to see it the same way. I don't really care if you do or not. I guess that must make me a dumbshit too. Whatever, Nate. I think we are going after the Taliban for reasons best left to those running this country since I am not privy to all of their information. I will trust the judgement of the man that I helped elect. What a terrorist I am.

And I second everything Eri just said. She just said exactly what I'm feeling and thinking. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, Patty Cake.

eri, you're defending a war you do not understand? who is the enemy? what purpose does this war serve? we're losing our freedoms and decreasing our security -- that doesn't make sense to me, why does it make sense to you? you fanatically support a war you do not understand, while calling anyone who disagrees a traitor-- who's the traitor? how unamerican are you acting?

I am calling a man who refuses to support the country he lives in a traitor. I also feel someone who doesn't vote and bitches about what the president is doing a traitor. That is who I consider a traitor. As far as this war goes, it is not my job to question the purpose. That has been decided for me by those in power. I choose to support them. I don't like losing freedoms and liberties, but that happens even during peace times. Look at the laws prohibiting smoking in restraunts and bars in California. That was a lost freedom. I pay prices every day, so I am not going to vent even more about it because we are at war. Those are two completely separate issues. And no, it doesn't make sense to me, but my efforts to change them have been futile. I just keep on fighting. Who is the enemy? Terrorists who invade my home and kill innocents. Terrorists who invade any other country and kill innocents. This is not a new arguement for me. I am just sick of watching jack shit get accomplished and am ready to fight back.

1) define the purpose of this war.-In my humble opinion, it is to irradicate terrorism, however the official definition of a terrorist has not been provided by the Bush Administration as of yet. a) what are the goals of our military action? Current or future? Seems redudant of previous question. Remove terrorist threat world wide. b) who is the enemy? Again, redundant, but I will play along. Terrorists who use the name of Muslim religion to kill or frighten. c) what has the enemy done? Did you wake up yesterday? 2) detail our authority-See chapter 51 of the UN Charter. a) why do we have the right to kill innocent people? I never said we had the right to kill innocents. b) why are we acting instead of the UN? Shithead, WE ARE THE UN AND NATO. 3) how do our actions not fit in with trace's definition of terrorism? 4) what is your interpretation of the goals of islamic terrorism? 5) why do islamic terrorists hate the US? Are you ready for this long winded answer? OK, here goes: They resent our intervention in teh Isreali/Palestinian dispute (catch this) over LAND (GASP! Not religion) Following World War II, the British withdrew from their mandate of Palestine, and the UN partitioned the area into Arab and Jewish states, an arrangement rejected by the Arabs. Subsequently, the Israelis defeated the Arabs in a series of wars without ending the deep tensions between the two sides. The territories occupied by Israel since the 1967 war are not included in the Israel country profile, unless otherwise noted. In keeping with the framework established at the Madrid Conference in October 1991, bilateral negotiations are being conducted between Israel and Palestinian representatives (from the Israeli-occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip) and Israel and Syria, to achieve a permanent settlement. On 25 April 1982, Israel withdrew from the Sinai pursuant to the 1979 Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty. Outstanding territorial and other disputes with Jordan were resolved in the 26 October 1994 Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace. On 25 May 2000, Israel withdrew unilaterally from southern Lebanon, which it had occupied since 1982. The Palestinians view them as squaters, and thus are fighting with the Isrealis over the land. We, the US sent money and weapons to the Isrealis to help them defend themselves. It has degenerated to the Palestinians throwing rocks at tanks, and tanks killing the rock throwers. I think we need to stop supporting ISREAL IMMEDIATELY. SIMPLY PUT- THEY HATE US FOR MEDELLING, AND THEN PUTTING AN AIRBASE IN MIDDLE OF THEIR HOLY LAND, SYRIA. 6) how will our actions reduce the incidence of terrorism in the future? They may not.

um the very foundation of this country is based on questioning authority. It was a huge factor in creating our government. We have a system of checks and balances just for that. We are a nation spawned rom dissent. Its the very people who questioned British rule and taxation that led to the creation of this country. If anything I am doing the VERY american thing. Calling anyone who doesnt support the president and his actions a traitor is akin to a totalitarian. Thats how totalitarian gov'ts work. The root out the dissenting voices and get rid of them. You guys are playing the roles of sheep. Turning a deaf ear, to attrocities being committed by your gov't and calling anyone who doesnt support the gov't a traitor. You couldnt be any less of an American with such behavior. Assuming the "authorities" are doing the "right" thing is blind and foolish. You fail to pay attention to history. Our gov't has not always done the right thing. Thank god along the way someone questioned authority at some point. Who knows, if they didnt, we may still have slavery, you as women may still be disinfranchised. And Im not sure where this talk about not voting came from. Im a pretty avid voter, voted in the last election...and in almost every local election. So enough with that crap. "Shame on you for dumping on our president. He is doing the best thing for this country and you not standing by him and accepting his decisons makes you exactly what I said you were..a traitor" never in my life have i seen such idiocy. Somebody needs to question him and question him further....and in some respects the media is dropping the ball. Trace we are not UN, nor are we NATO. Those organizations are comprised of many countries. We have NATO in our backpocket, but the UN is comprised of many more nations including so called "rogue" nations. Its arrogant nationalism to think we ARE the UN. Its not Syria they are pissed about us putting airbases in. We don't have any airbases in Syria. Its Saudi Arabi. Using Saudi Arabi as a launch pad during the gulf was a big problem for bin Laden and his people. Two of the holiest sites in Islam are in Saudi Arabi.

for the record, questioning the government is patriotism. blindly following the government is fanaticism. democracy only works if you question, review and refine authority. also, for the record, eri - i didn't intend to call you a dumbshit. i got caught up with the dog who is yapping at your heels. please accept my apologies. trace- i think this is part of the problem: "Shithead, WE ARE THE UN AND NATO. " we are not the UN. we're just part of the UN. the UN is not bombing afghanistan. the US and the UK are. do you think it is reasonable that the congress has given the president free reign in the war against terrorism? a war with no set goals or precieved endgame? (btw: every congress person except Barbara Lee acted unconsitutionally when they granted the president that power. talk about traitors.)

"I don't like losing freedoms and liberties, but that happens even during peace times." no it seems you are perfectly content to just hand them over. How un-American that is. You can't even hold dear the very values that made our country a leader of the free world. "As far as this war goes, it is not my job to question the purpose. That has been decided for me by those in power. I choose to support them" by the way , this is what a lot of sheep in germany did in the 30s and 40s. Just turned a blind eye, deaf ear. sheep. cut and paste that last bit trace?

Traitors. Heh. Don't you non-traitors see (Dani, you probably won't get most of the following words, but if you sound them out, it might help) that what the "traitors" are getting at is that, maybe after the 9/11 attack, it might be time for the US to step back and re-think our actions in the world, and our actions here? Instead of indiscriminantly bombing other countries (which the US has reserved the right to do in vaguely worded language -- i.e., once we're done with Afghanistan, look out, Saddam and Gerry Adams) it might behoove us (Dani: behoove means to cut the feet off of cows) we might examine which of our foreign policies have may have led to the 9/11 attacks. There's certainly nothing traitorous in doing so. Israel/Palestine, removal of troops from Saudi Arabia, sanctions against Iraq etc. Isn't that worth even a passing thought, as opposed to, "This is my country, and I don't give a fuck about anybody else, and let's bomb the shit out of the middle east because they're all towelhead savages and they'll never change..." ad nauseum. (Dani, "ad nauseum" is a Latin term you should check out. Latin, as you know, is what Jennifer Lopez speaks.) Just because Peter Jennings doesn't report it doesn't mean we're not doing it. And for chrissakes, I get so sick of hearing, "Why are spending it on them, why don't we spend it here." Because we're the richest fucking country on earth, and here, one can get off his butt and go out and a living (Dani, I didn't mean you -- you can lay on your back and make a living.) Try doing that in Afghanistan.

Uh huh, go ahead and blame me for calling Eri a dumbshit. Typical of a big mouth who has from the day I laid eyes on this site been famous for spewing out insults to everyone who has ever posted here. Remember that wet cement you were talking about earlier? It's time for you to go lay in it, traitor. And I'd rather be on someones heels than on the outer layer of skin that surrounds the human asshole. Nice try at appologizing, suck up. You called her a dumbshit on your own free will with no help or encouragement from me or anyone else. You just cant stand to see anyone thinking along my lines but get used to it, us true Americans think alike and wont back down to traitors like yourself. I see the only way that you people are going to defend your country is if you were to get drafted. Although hiding under rocks would be more your style, I'll keep my fingers crossed anyway.

the most annoying thing about the pop patriotism these days is the traitor issue. to me, being a traitor means that one betrays what they had earlier pledged support. i guess that's why we have the pledge of allegiance indoctrination ceremony every morning in elementary school. so that it can be held against us later in life. (i have the same opposition to religious indoctrination but that's for another thread, another time.) if a child can't enter into even the simplest of legally binding contracts, how then can that pledge of allegiance bear any weight? that said, none of us get to choose where in the world we are shat into existence, so simply "being an american" is only an accomplishment for those individuals who leave another place to be here. for all the rest of us, it's automatic, like it or not. fortunate, but meaningless and definitely not a virtue. that said, not liking the direction the nation's current regime is heading in is only traitorous for armed forces or some other class of people who have made a pledge of allegiance to the country as an adult and then betrayed that pledge and even then, there may be mitigating circumstances. if you haven't made that pledge, you can't be a traitor. besides, we are encouraging traitorous (by the definition of those up there who are bleating the word) behavior in our enemies this very moment. we are strongly urging them to betray their nation and fight against it. but that's ok with us, right? repeat after me: "i am a selfish american and i don't care what the rest of the world thinks. my ass looks hot in these jeans. give me all your money."

Dont quit your day job Dougie because you are certainly NO comedian. I think your kinda dopey...slow...sluggish...you remind me of the coyote trying to catch the roadrunner but never does. No need to define your words. As long as they are in ENGLISH I will understand them just fine. And if I dont, I am prefectly capable of looking it up without your pathetic help.

by our laws, a contract signed under duress is invalid. similarly, allegiance pledged under duress is also invalid. (agreements made under duress are usually called treaties -- no wonder they're often broken.) a point conveniently ignored by those "patriots", here and abroad, who would shoot you in the head for being a "traitor".

We are a large part of the UN. See how it does without us. As far as cutting and pasting, sure I did. From the CIA archives.

"us true Americans think alike" i need a drink.

"alternative? massive humanitarian aide. the taliban could easily self destruct if people were fed and not afraid to speak out" Nice thoughts, Patrick, but under the Taliban rule, the people are afraid to speak. Christian ministers are facing the death penalty for preaching about Christ there. According to Rusmfeld, they have reached the objective of the airstrike. Now they can drop food and medicine without fear of the cargo planes being shot down.

I never said the pledge of allegiance. Damn, I'd better go sit with the traitors now. I find this rather quaint. (The acronym, not the bill. And I think this is as close to a declaration of war that we're going to get. This troubles me.

nope, you're not a traitor at all. carry on.

Wanna sum up what those links were, platypus? COnsider this: who really loves their country more, the one who doesn't care and doesn't want to know about its mistakes, or the one who faces those mistakes and wants to make sure they never happen again? Think about that the next time you toss about the word "traitor." It's probably the most truly patriotic thing you can do, question a president who did not receive the popular vote, whose foriegn policy skills until now were unknown, and who could very well be leading us down the path to a "Fortress America" situation where the Bill of Rights and everything our forefathers fought and sacrificed for is discarded in the name of security and war. Of course, this will probably be answered with some inane remark about nintendo or me being called a traitor again.

facing mistakes and ensuring a better future does not equal dwelling on the past. You do what you need to do and move on. After that, I don't care. I am a spoiled American and I don't care what the world thinks. I don't wear jeans, but my ass still looks good. As far as my being a sheep, I am by choice and that is something I think you forget. I do what I do and say what I say because I believe in it, and it is my choice to be a sheep. I enjoy recieving information from other, but it doesn't change how I feel, it makes me think and I still decide to be a sheep all by myself.

This business is getting out of control. Lets look at some facts. Natural selection.Science. This is the way of the world. The strongest/most adaptable species,survives to reproduce. Mother Nature does not take morality into account. Mother Nature does not care who is right or wrong. This being said,lets move on. Regardless,of all the insults,flying back and forth,I believe that everyone is in agreement that America IS a democracy. In a democracy,the majority rules. This is not a complex mathematical problem. It is clearly evident that the majority of the countries of the world,are in agreement with the Uninted States,and have openly pledged their support. The majority has spoken.End of story. Whether we like it or not,this IS the reality of what is happening.

it is out of control. freedom is out of control. it freaks out the patriots. it freaks out the traitors. when we say that freedom must prevail, we're really talking about fascism. fascism oppresses the free, freedom oppresses the fascists. who will win? probably the terrorists.

Those who sacrifice freedom for the sake of security, or those who sacrifice security for the sake of freedom, will have neither. Benjamin Franklin. Go figure.

CZ, you are very right. I got condemned for saying basically the same thing last week. It is time to face that it is happening and will continue to happen whether we like it or not. The whole right and wrong things don't change what is happening. Thank You.

"It is clearly evident that the majority of the countries of the world,are in agreement with the Uninted States,and have openly pledged their support." this is wrong. it is clearly evident FROM THE US MEDIA. if you check international news sources, you realize that we have limited support from the world. our support comes with clauses such as "make sure no innocents die". and as for the majority has spoken, time to shut up business, how unamerican is that. ever seen 12 angry men? it is the job of the correct minority to speak out against the follies of the bumbling, moronic majority.

Damn, as usual, Czarina (and my wife, of course) have made the most sense in the last few days

You're confusing me,Nate. You're contradicting yourself.Thats not fair.To have a debate,it requires at least two people. Stop that.You can't be both sides. First you said,"this is wrong",in relation to my majority comment. Then you came back with,"it is the job of the correct minority to speak out against the follies of the bumbling,moronic majority." Pick one,so I can respond.

"it is the job of the correct minority to speak out against the follies of the bumbling, moronic majority." It's time to stop the whining minority from ruling the majority.

the two majorities- the first being the majority of countries, the second being the majority of americans. very little sense is being made by anyone on your side of the fence, trace. your arguement boils down to "This is the way it is, most people support it, so shut up, traitor." and, it occurrs to me, aren't you supposed to be a christian? this war thing is very unchristian.

Who said the minority was right? Nate, you just have a different point of view, just like the rest of us. It doesn't make anyone more right or wrong. Only different. Yes, you are different. Deal with it. After all, we of the majority think that you of the minority are a bunch of bumbling morons as well. Again, it goes both ways. Bottom line is it is happening whether you like it or not. What are you going to do now? Just talk?

I never called you a traitor. You are allowed and absolutely should voice your opinion. Um, and Nate, the "Christians" are the most war-mongering of all religions. I am not sure about religious affiliations for myself personally, but I do not speak for the family.

I hear the cogs aturnin'. Hon,don't go gettin' your testicles,[terrorists],in a tangle. If you'll notice,I really,at this point in time,have no opinion,about this situation.I have gone beyond the brutal reality of "me" and how it affects "me".[and by "me",I mean all the factions involved],but am looking at the overall effect on species.

"Christians" are war-mongerers, christians are not. to call yourself christian and support this war is to be a hypocrite. the difference in our views comes from your self-described need to be ignorant. "i don't know and I DON'T CARE." the informed minority opposes this war. if you understand that we are hypocrites, that we treat arab nations as second class nations, that we do everything that we condemn, then, if you have a soul, you must realize how unjust we are.

the overall effect, cz, in my opinion, is an escalation of violence that will lead to the collapse of (our) society.

i don't know which is scarier...the fanaticism exhibited by the likes of dani and eri....the blind "im a selfish American and I don't care attitude" and the "history is irrelavent" mentality OR the threats terrorist pose themselves. I mean I knew* this type of mentality existed in America, but I am completely shocked to see it here, in print. Your attitude is dangerous Eri, please get an education. Learn about the rest of the world. Learn history so you can know your future. Learn something PLEASE. Dani....a lobotomy could serve you and the public around you well. Dougie that was funny as hell.....especially the Latin part. I saw a tremendous piece on Frontline last night. A 2 hour special. It had some good information, and trace could have told you more information than any CIA website could have. They talked with dissidents from the Egyptian jihad, the Islamic brotherhood movement as well as Saudi dissidents for insight as to why this is happening to us. -Its not just the troop presence in Saudi Arabi. Its the arrogance and selfishness we demonstrated in the Gulf War to get there. Only to protect a corrupt state. Kuwait wasn't this squeeky clean do-gooder Arab state. A minority (or majority, depending on who you talk to) of the Saudi's didnt want US troops there. al Quieda was ready to deploy along the Sauid border to protect itself from Saddam, but then us "infidels" arrived and fucked it all up. -A theory as to why we didnt take out Saddam then....so he could be an excuse to keep our troops there. Seems plausible to me. -In all regards, the Egyptian Jihad and Islamic Brotherhood are very educated people. They are students who weren't cut their slice of the pie once graduating from their esteemed Universities and Colleges. They see a corrupt King...both in Egypt and Saudi Arabi. Shit they assasinated Sadat in front of his troops. Murabek, in their mind is military man, a sheep, taking orders (from the US). In Saudi Arabi....one of the strictest, most totalitarian states in the middle east is billions in debt. The working class AND educated class don't understand how they can suck the American teat and still be in debt. Again...the educated feel like they have been shafted by their leaders. The leaders in both of these countries are under constant threat. If you notice, a lot of the hijackers came from these two countries. Not Afghanistan. Not Iraq. Not Iran. Not Syria. -An Iraqi opposition leader put it best.....to paraphrase....the US, as a super power has a responsibility. You cannot invade and make presence in a region without appealing to the masses. Respect the populus not just the people in power, not jsut the people who serve your interest. Lead! Not Rob! He said it much more eloquently...but the Kurds are a good example of the great American shaft, so to speak. -Another strike against us....the irreverent bombing Clinton did to Sudan and Afghanistan in response to the embassy bombings. What he did was unspeakable. All the dumbass did was add lighter fluid to the already simmering fire. We did it without warning, we violated sovereign nations and further...we failed miserably. I mean if someone lobbed missles at us, without warning, what would WE do? Wait, that has been done....what are we doing???? Huh? Huh? And trace, as to my solutions to the existing problem.....no we haven't done everything I spoke of. Most importantly, we have NEVER sent UN monitors or supported UN involvement in Israel. We vote it down everytime because we know damn well Israel is in the wrong and would be reprimanded something serious if not sanctioned, under UN code. Yes we are a huge component of the UN, but we arent the only one, and its ignorant arrogance to think we can have our say with the UN. We still owe back payments to them...so they could be in their right to tell us to eat a dick. And frankly I wish they would.

Let me just point out,in all fairness,before I leave this thread,that I have not intimated that I think the majority is correct,nor do I think the minority is incorrect.I think there are valid points on both sides of the fence. I do not know who is right.No one does. I have moved past my initial fear of being nuked,back to my usual,lacksadasical self,and am just along for the ride. I have said this before,and I will repeat it here. I have little faith in mankind,and therefore,am seldom disappointed,in his follies. The end.

FYI czarina....the american revolution was fought by a MINORITY of individuals and political dissidents. Majority rule, but majority rule as it has been shown in history, is not always correct and its up to social stimuli, such as Universities, media and so on to shake it up. The majority of America still supported the Vietnam war, when it ended. Majority of America still supported segregation when it ended. Majority of America still supported the disenfranchisment of women, when that ended. This list goes on. A college level poli sci class should be able to discern the dynamic of "majority rule" because its not that simple. I don't say that in a belittling way, its just i cant stand it when people start tossing that around, when its really nothing more than a means to discern voting results in Congress, Supreme Court and during elections. it doesnt mean anything when it comes to shaping public policy UNLESS its sent to those various entities for a vote. And last I checked, the president DODGED the Congress to get a declaration of war, we have not been asked to vote on it, and the supreme court has nothing to do with it.

are we really a democracy? no. we are a beurocracy masquerading as a democracy. if we were, one vote = one vote. an example of that is the election this past november. and no one, NO ONE would have the power of sending our people to war without consulting the public first. thomas jefferson said that a good government would have to have a revolution every 20 years in order to fit the people's needs. so he designed the government in such a way that it would withstand revolution and he and his comrades would stay in power.

Amen

to reiterate....PLEASE realize its not as simple as "majority rule" before you start tossing that around. and Eri, the touchy, feely "you have your opinion, i have mine, lets have cookies and milk" attitude is a problem. Simply put, your opinions are supporting indiscriminate death. My opinions are trying to stop your indiscriminate killing.

oh shit margret is gonna come out anytime now yielding that big ass Constitutional stick of hers. i feel her lurking.

oh shit margret is gonna come out anytime now yielding that big ass Constitutional stick of hers. i feel her lurking.

i sense a great disturbance in the farce.

Well people, I've bided my time, watched waited, weighed my decision carefully... And I've come to this conclusion after reading all the posts (which took fucking forever because some of you are quite longwinded) and examined all the counter arguments and explinations. And this is my decision. Dani... YOU ARE A FUCKING MORON. You speak without A: knowledge of what you speak of, B: You insult at the beginning of almost every post you've made, that is not a very good people skill thing to do. C: None of your arguments or insults to Patrick give me reason to belive you are older then 8 or 9 years old. I give you something to think about, before you open your mouth and talk, or decide to post here, think of what your saying examine the facts, because you keep digging yourself a hole that need not be dug. Oh yes, I forgot something... Fuck you, you ass.

I wish Margret would come out and do so, as woudl Marcus. I know they know more than me on such things and I defer to them. Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. Look at our past, and especially our past foriegn policy in regards to Islamic states. Then it is fairly simple to draw a line from there to 9/11. So, in order to prevent further 9/11 - level events in the future, foriegn policy towards Islamic countries needs to be changed. It's not that hard to figure out, people. The sad thing is, it may already be too late. Our use of Islamic countries as pawns in the Cold War may continue to bite us for generations. It doesn't help that many societies that are dominated by Islam seem to have problems with such things as war, poverty, and civil rights, but then, a lot of that is cultural, not Islamic. Look at Libya and Palestine, as well as Lebanon asnd Egypt, with relatively "normal" civil rights for women. They are Islamic countries, but progressive compared to Saudi Arabia and Iran, not to mention Afghanistan. Maybe if more people had jobs, education, and food in the Middle East, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Nation-building, anyone?

Patrick, I never invited you over for cookies and milk. I have more important things to do. If you don't like my attitude, then don't talk to me. It isn't going to change. You keep repeating yourself. I find you attitudes as reprehensible as you find mine. What I do and don't support is a matter of interpretation on this site. Same as everyone else. I never said that you had to agree with me. I would prefer if you didn't. I would also prefer information from you rather than condemnation. Nate and I differ in attitude and ideas on many plains, but we don't condemn each other. We state opinions, ideas, facts. Ok Nate does that more than I do. He says something. I may not always agree with him, but I understand where he is coming from. Try saying something. Right now you are just wasting my time.

marge uses pretty big words. i doubt those who need her wisdom most would understand her.

Indiscriminate? What the fuck? I am so sick of hearing about killing innocents and indicriminate killings. What the hell do you think took almost a month to get this action started? The military has been working very hard to make sure the targets are MILITARY targets, and most of the targets were HIT AT NIGHT so there was less chances of somebody being in there. This is NOT a war against Afghanistan. And you fucking know it. To continue to say that it is, or to spread the dis-information about indicriminate killing is to join the ranks of the Taliban, period. Did you see any living beings on the runways that were hit? No. Was there people out training on the training fields in the dead of night? no. Get a grip. We are not out there nukeing anyone. I know what has taken place over the past month FOR A FACT, because I have been part of it. DAMN YOU. Your are showing your ignorance when you talk about indiscriminate killing and the death of innocents.

We are doing excactly what we said we were going to do. Take out the terrorist training camps and the taliban war equipment. Stop your ponitification and look at reality.

you're wasting your energy, hal. even if she is capable of critical thought, she'd never give you the satisfaction of heeding your advice. she gets a kick out of irritating as many people as she can. she's the bbs terrorist. look at the froth she whipped up in just a few short days. that's all she cares about.

"And you fucking know it. To continue to say that it is, or to spread the dis-information about indicriminate killing is to join the ranks of the Taliban, period." yea, because when the government told us they were doing the same thing in iraq, they weren't killing civilians. oh, wait, yes they were. but, in kosovo when they were doing precision bombings against military targets they told us there wouldn't be civilian casualities. and they did a good job of keeping those to a minimum. oh, wait, no they didn't. they killed all sorts of innocents. oh, that's right. we're not remembering the history. we'll just keep on trucking! they tell us we believe it! and anyone who doesn't believe must be part of the taliban!

"with liberty and justice for all" well, you know, all americans.

So, you beleive the Iraq, (baby milk factory???) and the taliban more then anyone else, huh?

Trace don't be a fool. They showed us a picture of ONE runway....and another set of "before/after" pictures that don't even remotely look the same. You can't trust a god damn thing the Pentagon tells you. and You of all people should know that. Did you hear the moronic Rumsfield yesterday addressing the 4 UN workers killed? He said it was uncertain whether they were killed by anti-aircraft fire from the Taliban or US bombs. Um...Mister Rumsfield (this is where the press drops the ball) since when did anti-aircraft fire point their barrels to the ground? The amount of bombs being dropped, knowing how much force 2 Carrier groups, and 350 aircraft can deliver...people are dying. and its indiscriminant. I don't subscribe to the moronic tit for tat. Yes I remember what happened a month ago tommorrow. But in the minds of many on this earth, that was for the death & destruction we have caused on their soil. Tit for tat is not the solution. you are in denial Trace. You deny the impact of what we are doing. Its FURTHER discriminant because UN aide workers have been forced to leave for their safety, so they can't feed the millions starving and displaced. Its not just about the bombs man. "This is NOT a war against Afghanistan" tell this to the people on the ground in Afghanistan man. I am looking at reality. Collateral damage = people dying at our expense you fuck, when will you wake up to the reality of that?

Um, that is why it is a pledge to the American Flag, and not the UN flag. Take care of home first

Did you hear the moronic Rumsfield yesterday addressing the 4 UN workers killed? He said it was uncertain whether they were killed by anti-aircraft fire from the Taliban or US bombs. He is right. "Um...Mister Rumsfield (this is where the press drops the ball) since when did anti-aircraft fire point their barrels to the ground? " They have not repealed the law of gravity yet. If you fire a rocket in the air at a target, and it misses, guess what happens? It falls. "Its FURTHER discriminant because UN aide workers have been forced to leave for their safety, so they can't feed the millions starving and displaced. " Good God. Never mind, there is no use arguing anything with you all. you are the opposite of brain washed. You are so hell bent on beleiving that EVERYTHING you see on TV or read in the paper is a lie, you don't beleive a damn thing. Unless, of course, it is bashing the Government or the US, then it MUST be right on. I was going to say something about the food we have been dropping and the medicine, and how the taliban have threatened to shoot anything that is in their airspace down, but it is pointless.

Eri, the milk and cookies part was metaphorical. It wasnt literal. If you can't admit your opinion is supporting innocent death and destruction, then you are in denial. Im not attacking you as a human being, Im questioning your integrity as a thinking, voting American. If thats too much for you....well, sorry. Trace the Iraq baby milk factory was only one incident.

Trace READ the UN website. There is no media propaganda in that remark. Its fact the UN's efforts to deal with the refugee problem are being brought to a standstill because of our air raids. Where can you dispute this? As nate said in the first run they dropped 30,000+ one day rations....that leaves 7+ millions to go. Air drops are inefficient and ineffective. Its propaganda.

*sigh* trace, the chances of a fallen undetonated shell from an anti-aircraft gun, leveling a building is far slimmer than the fact that the UN said a radio tower very close by was the intended target. eitherway...the Taliban, being a sovereign state are entitled to defend themselves, so even if it was Taliban anti-aircraft munitions that did it, those anti-aircraft guns were firing because we were attacking. but really, Rumsfield's notion was moronic anyway, and those with half a brain know that.

Screw her. I choose not to aknowledge her past my last post, for the mear reason mentioned. She has no means of viewing anothers view point, she's a narrow minded conceded bitch. Thank you and have a nice day.

I find all this name calling repulsive.

hey all you fuckos calling us anti-war peeps traitors.....see what a good patriotic american has done. This IS the spirit of America...questioning an errant and fanatical gov't. Look at the specific details he was looking to address. Scary shit eh?

yes, it is. I am glad someone is trying to slow down that legislation. very glad. And I am not saying that it was not our bomb that hit the UN building, because changes are far greater that it was. It was sitting right next to the comm tower we were trying to take out. What where they doing sleeping next to it anyway? why did the un not order the evacuation at least for the night? we shared our targets with the un, and when we were planning on hitting it. Coomon sense would dictate no one be anywhere around the targets

i would encoruage all of you to call your senators and express your support of Senator Feingold. An email is fine, but better to send a fax if you can or call. they probably print emails once every few days. They can't ignore a phone ringing off the hook. How many of you so called patriots know who your senators are? Hmm? If you don you can find them here. http://www.senate.gov

Kit Bond and Jean Carnaghan (UGH). I dont like either

Nate, do you really think this is it? Appocolypse kind of thing?

http://www.solidarity.com/hkcartoons/mikeoct4.html

i think that if we don't shape up and become a part of the world, we will collapse. what we stand for, liberty and justice, for even ourselves alone, is in jepoardy. in order to fully protect ourselves from terrorist acts, we will have to remove the freedom we hold dear. we're an arrogant people. if you fuck with the USA, we're going to kick your ass. unfortunately, we don't know how to fight these people. we're going to get our ass kicked.

You have some very valid points. At the risk of sounding like a talking head,' this is a fight like no other. And no, we don't know how to fight them. Most of the military fighting on the taliban side right now aren't even the ones that were part of the military on 9/11, most of those left. The ones that are there now are for the most part ones they forced at gun point to fight.

Fuckin' Christ....this shit has me so sick to my guts I could scream. Yes, majority rules....the majority elected Hitler chancellor of Germany. The majority will probably be the death of us all. Czarina at least acknowledges this---- But the mentality of "I'm going to just march along and let the gov't tell me what to think...and if you disagree with me you're an evil traitor and should be strung up from the highest yard arm----" no. Forget it. And so as the great bastion of democracy we will become a banana republic in order to preserve freedom.....who will save us from us? I was at a party a couple of weeks ago when a friend started handing around an e-mail she hd on hard copy: Said e-mail was an interview with an anonymous military intelligence honcho who said the 9/11 attacks were masterminded by high-ranking officials in OUR OWN GOVERNMENT AND MILITARY---the purpose----to get the U.S. to rally behind a conquest of the Afghani oil pipeline, Pearl Harbor-style....and also to completely overturn the civil liberties climate we enjoy. Helluva cute little conspiracy theory----'til you stop and realize it's all REALLY GOING IN THAT DIRECTION. And they've sold us WW3----lock, stock and smoking barrel---and we as a nation LIKE it. I like to maintain that truth is dead, tho----and just because I don't trust big daddy gov't or the man on TV to tell me what's up doesn't mean I trust some random fuck on the net to come through....critical thinking is a two-way street. But it has now been quoted by a number of sources that the footage of those palestinians dancing and celebrating in the streets "rejoicing over the attacks"....was filmed in 1991. Whether you want to bite into the Big Conspiracy Theory or not, it's apparent that we are being manipulated and lied to....WHY? That alone should give folks pause to think.

I don't think it was planned, but it sure could be manipulated to that end. I won't deny that. We KNEW something was going to happen WEEKS in advance, that I can tell you. I can't tell you how I know, but I do.

i just took an incredible dump. my guts feel all loose and slack and gooshy now. i think maybe i put a little too much sriracha on that bowl of phô yesterday. it hurt so good i was laughing and crying.

it will take brilliance to solve this problem. Brilliance that few have. Brilliance that we are NOT exercising to date. Hearing scholars and activist, and yes, even terrorist speak last night on Frontline, made me realize...(as if their terrorists actions haven't spoke loudly enough) these people know what they are doing. They are terribly smart, resourceful and determined. The only way we will win is if we out smart them. Im not confident our leaders are capable of that. It calls for brilliance. Brilliance that could shape the world for centuries to come. Brilliance we havent seen in centuries. So far our actions are just knee-jerk like the actions that got us into this mess.

I think that I need to clarify something. The "I don't know and I don't care" aspect. I don't know. In may ways that is true. I try to educate myself on what is going on, but it is very difficult for me. I grieve and feel outraged for those killed, not only in the U.S. but everywhere. I grieve for those in situations where they can't do anything, for those who feel hopeless. The more I learn, the heavier my heart is and after a while, I have to take a break from it all, simply because I can't handle any more pain. The I don't care thing, I think has been misunderstood. I do care about what is going on more than I should. What I don't care about is what a few of you think of my beliefs. Some of you are too busy giving your opinions of how things work, or what you think I mean, and in that I don't care. I don't care what you think of me. I don't care what you think of my ideals, principles, or anything else. It is not the World that I care less about, but a few individual people. Sometimes all of this becomes more than I can handle, or deal with, and I feel like I am out of my league trying to understand each nuance and possible ramification. I am tired of seeing people killed. Yes, I am tired of it. I have watched it happen over and over again over the past few years, and I want to say, enough. I am tired of just sitting and watching. Let's do something about it. So Patrick, I still do not believe in indiscriminate killing. I am not in denial, I am in realist mode right now. I am concerned for so many things and people and all of our futures. I don't have the brilliance to change the world within me. I only do what I can. The most important things that I think I can do are: 1. Be honest, always. 2. Spend my life trying to become a better person than I am today. None of us are perfect, never will be. I try to grow and become better in who I am all of the time. I believe it all starts with yourself. You can't be a good citizen, or humanitarian, or whatever you want to be if you are not a good person inside, and every person can constantly grow in that department. I do blatently disagree with a lot of people on a lot of topics, but I also embrace them. I enjoy when I am presented with new facts, or new aspects of things without personal interpretations attached. You want me to be better educated, tell me a fact, in truth, without spin and let me judge it for myself. I have learned a lot from people here who do just that. I am constantly learning, because you can't grow without knowledge. I agree with CZ when she says that both sides have good points, and I respect her for being on the fence as she is. She is being honest, without judging. That is what I try to be and maybe I have been slipping up on that. So, please simply try to understand me a little better and I will do the same.

Like I said before, either it all ends up with the world turning into the "Federation" form Star Trek, or "Mad Max". I urge you all to pick up the latest Rolling Stone. If you weren't scared before, you will be. You know what sucks? The era of soldier fighting soldier as a normal state of war is over. That's it. It's all guerrilla war from here on out. Let's face it, if we have to send in ground troops to destroy the Al-Qaeda factions in Afghanistan, then they will be killing boys. Innocents? Maybe. Brainwashed? For certain. Shooting at you? For Certain. This will be the most horrible war to fight for us, hands down, since the Civil War. Reminds me, I need to get in contact with my friend in the Army, see if can't tell me what he's heard. Trace: thanks for trying to help keep the discussion up above petty name calling.

the burning has finally stopped.

Well put Sem.I bet Dave's asshole is sore

Semillama, for the first time I think we agree on something. Ground warfare will be the killing of innocents, and the brainwashed. This is going to have to be some kind of guerilla warfare that I don't quite understand. It will be the worst thing since the revolutionary war, and in the end it will be a World revolution. By the way peoples, you might want to keep an eye on your water supply. We are having problems here in the grand (hah) midwest. Just a heads up that something is going on and nobody is talking. Maybe, it is just my paranoia that makes me think it may be elsewhere, but just in case. Honey, email me and I'll let you know what is happening.

I will sit on my fence, I will like my fence. I did my part in voting, who knows if I did right or wrong, I voted for Nader by the way. I also attempted to do my part a couple yaers back by enlisting. WELL they didn't fucking want me, and basically told me that there was not a fucking chance in hell I could serve in the military even if WW3 came about. (4 steel plates in my forehead,16 screws, and 4 inch screws in my knee.) I'm no different then anyone else, all of thsoe things are internal and affect me in no way. but i'm not "military stuff." But I tried, so fuck'em.

http://www.theonion.com/onion3736/freedoms_curtailed.html

gotta match bitch? seriosuly. Eri...if you were interested in being more educated on the matter, some 101 night courses at your local community college would do you well. Understanding American foreign policy, certain aspects of civics, and some keen lessons in 20th century history coudl serve your argument well. I believe you mean well, but you just haven't been given the tools or facts to do well. I can be just as guilty of that as anyone. I just don't think being on a fence is worthless. even the president you support doesnt want any fence-sitters. "Youre in or you're out"

er...i think being on a fence is useless.

Be careful sitting on the fence. 1. You are easier to knock down. 2. You could end up with a fence post up your ass. Just a friendly warning. Of course, I venture there are some here that might like a fence post up their arse

I think about it all the time.

How do you think I'm sitting on the fence?

death to the great satan! har har har

Cute hal. Patrick, I feel much better now. I don't feel like my intentions are being attacked and that helps. On that, I am going to dig out some of my old college books on American History. See how much of it can be related to our current situation. I am not changing my current stand, but I will work on better educating myself and using that in a debate forum. Here's hoping I am not the only one.

*An open letter to the editors at the Los Angeles Times, Washington Post, San Francisco Chronicle, Chicago Tribune, Atlanta Journal, CNN and New York Times* Why are you, as leaders in American media failing to address and bring to light the very important stoppage of the Anti-Terror Bill by Wisconsin Senator Feingold? Why are you failing to bring to light the serious ramifications the Bill has? We were one Senator short of forfeiting serious rights, as protected by our Bill of Rights last night and it seems most of the major media outlets, such as yourself, outside of Yahoo News and the Associated Press are failing to shed light on this monumental Bill. Asleep at the wheel? As a key player in shaping American opinion and public policy I beg of you, to shed light on this, ask our Government officials to slow down, and think of what they are doing. I have been called "unpatriotic" and a "traitor" for questioning the actions of our government since 9/11. Yet Mr. Feingold did one of the most patriotic things afforded to him by our Constitution. Can you tell me, America Media....why you are failing to shed light on this very important topic? Thank you. Patrick M. Los Angeles, CA

silence, or i'll smack you with my tail!

What's up with the water?

it's where my dam is, dammit!

They are shutting the water down and draining everything here. There hasn't been water pressure since 11 am. It is neighborhood wide, so far. They were draining the fire hydrants as well, but even they had next to no water in them. I don't know what is causing this and so far the only information we have been able to get out of the water company is that there is a guy with a key who will fix it. They don't even know why no one has water pressure. You can't even flush to toilet. No mains were broken, nothing like that, so what the f*** is going on? I dunno, but you might want to make sure this doesn't become anything common. They haven't done shit for our town all day. We're all still waiting on "the guy with the key". I guess the fact that there aren't any broken water mains and there is not any pressure in the fire hydrants worries me.

there's been some odd stuff. i guess there was a break in to a water plant around here-- maps of the system and a valve key were stolen.

Wait. So this water thing is happening at more then one part of the country?

"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience.Our problem is that numbers of people all over the world have obeyed the dictates of the leaders of their government and have gone to war,and millions have been killed because of this obedience. . . Our problem is that people are obedient all over the world in the face of poverty and starvation and stupidity, and war, and cruelty. Our problem is that people are obedient while the jails are full of petty thieves, and all the while the grand thieves are running and robbing the country. That's our problem." Howard Zinn, "Failure to Quit", p. 45 This professor, activist, and author has dedicated his life to the notion that the knowledge of history is important to people's everyday lives, and can be a powerful force for social change. Zinn is a champion of the notion that historical change occurs more through mass movements of ordinary people than through the wisdom and insight of so-called Great Men. "Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race." -Albert Einstein "The important thing is not to stop questioning." -Albert Einstein here are some good ideas to chew on Eri and others. mmmmm beaver.

as I have understood it....the threat to water systems would take huge amounts of chemicals to be effective. I know in CA, they are testing water supplies daily where as they used to do it weekly. Im sure lots of other states are doing this as well. Don't you have a well nate?

Crazy shit people, watch out for Anthrax..... Its a minor concern, I've been reading up on Anthrax, its not as horrible as people hype it up as. Yes its a scary death but the means and ways of contracting it are a pain in the ass of anyone trying to kill alot of people with it. Probably some fuckhead who wanted to have fun.

Check out this link to a comparison chart of anti-terrorism provisions in legislation currently being considered by congress, ala anti terrorist stuff. (Courtesy of the ACLU...)

i have a spring but i haven't tapped it. i'm in the local water district. we wouldn't be hit, though. the break in, i believe, was in a contra costa water (thing). plant/station/factory/whatever. i can't find the article. i also read of another suspicious water thing, where three middle eastern men who spoke "broken english" were found tresspassing on some water company land/plant/station/factory thing. the cop questioned them and let them go, they said they were looking for indian artifacts. i wish i had the articles.

This should ease your fear

Here's a moral question for you. This is an imaginary situation, but I think you will find it beneficial to think through this exercise. The situation: You are in the Middle East, and there is a huge flood in progress. Many homes have been lost, water supplies compromised and structures destroyed. You're a freelance photographer for a news service, you're traveling alone, looking for particularly poignant scenes that you can shoot. You come across Osama Bin Laden who has been swept away by the floodwaters. He is barely hanging on to a tree limb and is about to go under. You have to make a choice. You can either put down your camera and save him, or take a Pulitzer Prize winning photograph of him as he loses his grip on the limb. So, here's the question...and think carefully before you answer it: Which lens would you use? Yup, before you ask, that WAS indeed a cut and paste. Fuck you too Hal, Nate, Dave, Patrick, and whoever the hell else has something shitty to say to me. I DONT CARE!!! Realize that and get the fuck over it already. And besides, after the little Danilicious, Rosebud, and Wetfly episode last night, your mentality levels are even lower than I had originally thought and they were rock bottom to begin with and I am sorry that I have wasted these last few days arguing with the boys of the special education bad boys club but it is kinda fun so fuck it, why stop now. You people crack me up...NO ONE makes you read ANYTHING I write and NO ONE makes you reply but yet you still do! I'll tell you why...it's because I bother you all and none of you bother me in the least bit and that baffles you boys. But thats ok sweet cheeks, Keep having your little fun and amusement because laughing AT you boys makes my days a little brighter! I was in Walmart earlier and I was actually laughing out loud thinking about how mad you boys get when people disagree with you. How's it feel not being as perfect as you thought? Bet it sucks. I wouldnt know. Big bad mean Hal. May want to take a closer look at who's the 8 or 9 year old. I've heard smarter things come out of Andy Dick's mouth and he is the dumbest fuck I have ever seen or heard. Practice makes perfect though so keep trying.

is there any chance your arguments could have more substance than the childish "i know you are but what am I?" position they are presenting?

a fun site fore everybody to enjoy Jane's.com this, at least according to a new yorker article i just read, is where a lot of the washington boys go for information. jane's is named for a guy named fred t. jane who in 1898 (something like that) wrote a book cataloguing all of the naval fighting ships of the world.

i play some of his flight simulators on me 'puter at home.

"You people crack me up...NO ONE makes you read ANYTHING I write and NO ONE makes you reply but yet you still do! I'll tell you why...it's because I bother you all and none of you bother me in the least bit and that baffles you boys." actually, you amuse the hell out of me. i can't believe that people as ridiculously stupid as yourself exist, much less function in society without serious assistance. shine on, dani.

See you guys I knew it pissed her off to one level or another she mentioned me first when she told us to fuck off... Talk about something to smile about. Ahh the feelings of reverence and joy I get out of making the uninformed people of America who will defend a point of view they know very little about to the facet of fighting about it. Almost reminds me of Archie Bunker in a way, but Archie had more class. I feel as though somehow by pissing these people off with in consiquential remarks made off the top of my head to do such a thing is nobel in its own right for because I've pissed her off I've driven her from slinging dribble about a subject she knows dick about, and more on to a subject which she should be more attuned in pointing fun at people, people that don't give a flying fuck one way or the other but making fun of them none the less. I've found over my years on this earth that it is the ones that are less inteligent who are more likely to become aggrivated and defensive about words said to them, or to start acting like a child when someone has an opinion to counter their own. I guess it makes them feel superior in one fassion or another, not quite sure how but it does. This is where I see Dani sitting, she's determined that she is less informed then some people here, and instead of becoming informed will sit and spout this and that about peoples opinions till someone attempts to put her in her place, this is where things will get ugly for this person then turns in to a wolverine of crude and abrasive 11 year old comments. As for you responses directly to me Dani, I expected as much from someone such as yourself. Something along the lines of "I'm rubber your glue, whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you." is almost exactly what I got. I question your age and IQ, and wonder how long it takes you to realize you were duped. You fell into a pit, and didn't even know it. For you see my only intention in posting what I did was for you to retort, and in doing so make a complete ass of yourself. I thank you for your cooperation, have a nice day. Oh yes, almost forgot. Fuck you, you ass.

whats scary people is the girl is breeds. Get on board dani...BEEP BEEP!

She has a fucking child.....oh my sweet god... someone mated with her. I'm now at a loss for words.

Patrick, where did you get those quotes from Einstein? I agree with the don't stop questioning thing, but I would like to read more of what he had to say on nationalism. This whole concept of nationalism, humanism, realism, etc. is not something I learned in school. It is a foreign concept to me, but very appealing. Flight simulators are fun. I have to concede that you guys got me today. You made me see I was doing one of the things I hate most about the mid west, revelling in ignorance. People out here are proud of their blatant ignorance and it drives me up the wall. I keep saying that I will set a higher standard. I promise not to roll around in the mud squealing in the joys of my own ignorance again. By the way, the guy with the mysterious magic key did his job and our water is back to normal again. Dani, stop letting these guys get under your skin so much. You are giving them exactly what they want.

But you just said they got under your skin...and you liked it...

S o m a n y w o r d s a l l s t r u n g t o g e t h e r i n t o , w h a t a r e t h e y c a l l e d ? O h y e a h , s e n t e n c e s.

That wasn't me and even I know it is speeled "sentances".

ROTFLMAO 2X. Je m'amuse comme vous savez pas!

doughie, email you dumb motherfucker.

They didn't get under my skin, they made me think. I was hurt when I thought they were attacking my motives, but Patrick believed I had good intentions, just a lack of tools. Made me take a look in the mirror. I didn't get mad and start cussing at anyone, I thought. Amazing how that happens sometimes. I am not saying that I agree with them. I still disagree on many points. I am just saying that I will not just talk out of my butt, I will think and learn first.

eri....i just searched "einstein quotes" and found it. nationalism is simple. putting one's national doctrine, be it cultural, polical or social beyond your own borders. its a step beyond patriotism. Extreme cases of nationalism would be the Hitler regime. American policy in general is nationalistic. humanism, though I don't necessarily agree with with humanists on ever point...I believe in the core nature of it. I believe humans are one. I believe we are the problem and the solution to all of this and everything else that ails us. Its sounds wishy washy, and perhaps a better way to state my POV is i put human rights above religion, politics, governement etc. i.e. civilians, be them Iraqi, Afghani or Sudanese take precedence over advancing our military, economic or political agenda. A library could be a great place to start Eri. Just look up the subject and dive in.

its ok to talk out of your ass sometimes, we all do it. it feels good too. ask dave. one nation under daves ass.

All you boys do is repeat yourself over and over and over again. Hal, dont flatter yourself. You did not make me mad and never will. If you think that revolving your life around the news, radio, intenet news sites and newspapers makes you any more aware or anymore "educated" or more "informed" on this war situation than your in more need of the short bus than I am. "BEEP BEEP" ???? And YOUR age and IQ is??? God, look at you people. Posting links in every post you make trying to convince people that your right and everyone else is wrong. Sad. "See you guys I knew it pissed her off to one level or another she mentioned me first when she told us to fuck off..." What is YOUR age and IQ you conceited prick? Archie had more class? Archie was a prejudice bias bigot and that is the total opposite of what I stand for. But you saying that he had class just lets me and everyone else know that YOU are exactly what Archie was. This whole thing was started when I posted my opinions and my beliefs a few days ago, which I am very well entitled to, and all you boys started "pointing fun" and insulting me and when I give it right back, you simply cant take it. I never back down from anyone or anything when it comes to defending things I believe in so get off your high horses and stop playing God and stop trying to outwit one another with your insults to me because the day you offend me or piss me off or "dupe" me into some "pit" or "put me in my place" will be the day that hell freezes over. I guarantee it. Appears to me that if anyone is pissing anyone off, it's me. I'm sorry that I irritate you and annoy you all so much but it's a gift, what can I say. "whats scary people is the girl is breeds." Um, alrighty then. "Oh yes, almost forgot. Fuck you, you ass." Right back at ya, loser.

E-mail is good.

i want to be a prejudice bias bigot when i grow up. I guarantee it.

Barbara Boxer and Diane Fienstien. And they both suck. The links I posted were too the Anti Terrorism Act of 2001 (which I somehow doubt many of you have read, even though it's being brought up a lot these days), and the authorization for use of force (against "them," presumably).

i hate that cunt fienstien. she doesn't even act like a democrat anymore, and we still vote for her. name recognition goes a long way.

yeah they do...but i called and left messages anyway.

Dani... Read close before you go off... I didn't say Archie Bunker had class, I just said he had more class then you.

dani, believe me, we can take it. admit it, you're hypersensitive. you are. that's where the fascination/revulsion comes from. you're so offensive and so easily offended. are you like this in 3d?

"What is YOUR age and IQ you conceited prick?" "so get off your high horses and stop playing God and stop trying to outwit one another with your insults to me because the day you offend me or piss me off or "dupe" me into some "pit" or "put me in my place" will be the day that hell freezes over. " Now the question remains that if I haven't gotten to you in some way Dani, would you have responded at all? I don't belive any one here is making any attempt at "...playing God..." I never once said I put you in your place, nor was I trying to do so. See the reason I know I've gotten to you in one way or another is you fail to actually read what my posts say, you only read the words and associate them in a way that suits you and move on. The statement "What is YOUR age and IQ you conceited prick?" granted may have been at attempt at rebuting what I said to you, and in my opinion you seemed to do nothing more then proove my point even more. I'd like to thank you for the gratifying amusement you have given me yesterday and today, made my whole week as far as I'm concerned. Never once have I been pissed off or mad, I've been laughing my ass of the whole time... Have a nice day... (*note* I thought about calling you a Bitch, or a Cunt right here, but though better of it because it served no pourpose, you have already done enough to make an ass out of yourself I am an ass and I admit it with pride, but I don't feel I should give you any more opertunites to make a fool out of yourself, you should be able to do it on your own now.)

alright quit then it's gone on long enough

make us! thbbbbt!

Hal....dude...for the love of God get over yourself!!! You did not get to me in any way shape or form so please sit the fuck down and shut up!! You are such a little BABY!! Grow up and get a life and stop imagining that you have this ability to actually insult me or condemn me or hurt me or belittle me or even have any kind of effect on me what so ever because you DONT!! I laugh just as much as you do if not more at everything that goes on here at Sorabji.com!!!!! This is all fun for me and the simple fact that you acknowlede me is just showing that you just cant resist me so just GET A GRIP!! Call me a bitch or a cunt or anything else your little heart can think of because I DONT CARE!!!!!! Bring it on, bitch!!! Cant believe that I have a child and that someone actually mated with me huh?? Jeez, Hal, care to share YOUR personal life with me?? I think not. What would you possibly have to share...not a fuckin' thing, thats what. Your a pathetic attention grabber who says anything possible just to look cool and fit in with your little wolfpack but not a single one of you losers is half as honest and down to earth as I am. Before I forget, fuck you too, pussylip.

mmm . . . pussylip

Just remember that in a few days from now you guys will be in NOLA drinking St. Louis's sewage from a few days ago. Things "normal" as a "high alert" can be here at the home of Budweiser. I'll miss you all at the sorajifest. I still think it was the Bush camp that flew into the WTC and the Aliens put him up to it. He's really a Dumbocrat in disguise.

I'm too afraid to fly now

kelsey and cleo will be flying back from the east coast next monday. strangely, i'm not worried. i think the al qaedawhatever comment about the storm of planes continuing was disinformation. they're planning something altogether different. i hope i'm wrong. we'll see. the thing is, if they want to truly terrorize, they'll wait for the fervor to die down. 2 years. 5 years. we're remarkably short-sighted. a few months and we've forgotten. i watched charlie rose interviewing a prominent mid-east journalist last night. he quoted a british general who was vilified for saying publicly that the fight against northern ireland and the sinn fein was not about winning but about maintaining acceptable levels of violence. no nation has ever been able to fight terrorism. nations better prepared for it than us have tried and failed. israel thwarts countless plots but they still get through. likewise britain with the sinn fein, they still get through. what exactly are we struggling to hold on to that is worth innocent casualities? hint: $$$$$$$$$

i don't get it. you hope you're wrong about there not being a storm of planes? or you hope you're wrong to not worry? fucko. you sound like an asshole either way.

shut up, stan.

i'm with dave. i dont beliee anythign will happen anytime soon. we are indeed terribly shortsighted. j, don't be afraid to fly. theres no reason to be afraid. its possibly the safest time to fly. people are on alert, paranoid and hypersensitive. and J....if you afraid...thats 1 for the terrorist 0 for J. as the lovely and vindictive woman you can be I KNOW you don't like that score, so change it. Look forward to flying! I am.

I hope nothing's happening soon. I get on a plane in six hours.

"alright quit then it's gone on long enough" why is it always heather or agatha that comes along, stops the clobbering, and tells us all to go home?

Its never gone on long enough. I get a kick out of this, keeps me from doing it to the asshole who sits behind me at work, fat asshole needs to be branded and put to slaughter. Constantly undermines me, and is actually malicious. Oh and he's my boss to boot. I'm going to get back on the fence now and laugh at people who proclaim their own honesty, and spit upon the honesty of others with nothing more then their spit to tarnish it.

I probably never mentioned that my friends call me barney(behind my back,but I know) like in barney fife.I'm wound real tight,they also call me shakes.

Because I've been asleep; I would like to be able to offer you more choices. Yeah, so, just like to remind everyone that we're not in fact a democracy. Not. A. Democracy. The U.S. is a democratic republic -- republic by virtue of the arrangement of our government, democratic by virtue of SOME of the processes for securing that government. Also want to state, for the record, that treachery is not at all the same thing as opposing a limited term non-absolute government and that if y'all don't raise the level of discourse, you can just keep your cockholsters fucking SHUT.

thats IT? damn.

Cockholster? What's a cockhol..... Oh. Nevermind.

i have more terror planned for you infidels! wait 'till you see the price of airfare. har har har!

I'll have to comment on this later. You should all go to your corner. And, brush up on your facts. Name calling will win you no points.

Dear Dani, woncha come out to play? Dear Dani, greet a blank new slate. The sun is down, the sky is gray, We're waiting here, to hear you bay, Dear Dani, woncha come out to play? Dear Dani, open up our eyes. Dear Dani, post some whitetrash lies. The wind is fierce, the hawks will pounce On everything you've got to say. Dear Dani, won't you open up our eyes? Dear Dani, let us see your pile. Dear Dani, write like a little child. The clouds will be in your head, So let us see you write again, Dear Dani, woncha come out to play?

dude! name calling TOTALLY wins points. so does a hit sqaure in the jaw with one of those foam bats.

That's addorable, uh, Dougie Fresh. Very creative. I'm flattered that you took the time to make that up just for little ole me. Look forward to your next kindergarden project.

Friday, 5 October, 2001, 15:41 GMT 16:41 UK Oi! You! Read this! It's national courtesy day In a high-minded attempt to improve the nation's manners, the Polite Society has declared today to be a national day of courtesy, writes BBC News Online's Chris Horrie. The campaign, led by optician Simon Poole, claims that being polite is very much part of the British way of life. But, oh dear, Mr Poole - you are WRONG. In fact you are the Weakest Link. Goodbye! The peoples of the UK are among the rudest on earth. We have a long and brilliant tradition of insulting each other. Only the XXXXing Australians are better it at than us.

Droop's a bloody meanie pants fuckweenie