As a father of two daughters, one 8 and the other 3, I must say that if they can prove beyond any shadow of a doubt (and there should be enough DNA evidence to do that), this man deserves the death penelty.

we should save the money it would cost for the death penalty and put it toward the defense department build up tp protect us against China trace. Come on, surely you can understand that. stop playing god you sinner.

"stop playing god you sinner" Give me a break. You never play God, or recommend that it be done, and you have never sinned right? God you're boring.

eri, clearly my comment went over your head, like most do. anyone who advocates the death penalty is playing god. i was just your throwing your religion back at him. if i dont subscribe to your god, how can i play, or not play god muchless "sin"? Cool, a good ole fashion death penalty debate!!!!! Another topic that trips up the religious right as to provide a few moments of entertainment.

i cut off my cock and executed it. it had sinned.

Just thought I'd throw this in the mix,if you have an abortion,you're playing God.

She was born at the age you can still have partial abortions. For that matter, so was I.

jesus

I meant by the same standards that Patrick goes by when he say's you play God when you favor the death penalty.If they have any solid D.N.A proof which I think they do,then fuck him,kill him so he can go to hell quickly.She could have been your child,my child,and these scum need to die.And I'm not against abortions.

That was the point that I was trying to make as well. I am only truly against abortions if the child comes out alive (like many partial birth abortions). Then give the baby up for adoption. I don't feel I or the government should tell people what to do in that situation, but if the baby is alive outside of the womb then give it a chance at life.

J and Eri, you are right on. I was not trying to start an abortion debate, that is a dead horse(no pun intended). The sexual abuse of a 5 year old, followed by murder must not be tolerated. I do not feel it is fair to give him the same penalty you would give a person who murders someone old enough and strong enough to defend thier selves. This was an innocent little 5 year old girl for god's sake. If they have concrete evidence (and it appears that they do), then gas him. We would be showing him more mercy then he showed the little girl.

No pun taken.

J, the debate of abortion/playing god centers around when you believe life begins. that's a spiritual, moral matter. I believe life begins at birth. those against abortion belive life begins at conception.

I believe life begins after you buy a vowel.

personally i believe life begins after you've firmly and courageously taken it in the ass.

Why not let him spend his life in prison? I think that would be punishment enough.

Yes, and they could take the prisoners on a field trip one day to the zooquarium out near me, and during shark feeding time, one of the guards could accidentally push Runnion in the tank. It's a win-win situation.

Woops, I mean Avila. Dammit Trace, why couldn't have entitled this thread "Avila" instead of "Runnion". It's all your fault.

Hmmm Be careful my friend.

Fucko's mommy said that the electric chair would be too good for the killer. She said to tie him up and torture the bastard.

Momma knows best.

Let her do it, then.

Avila's mother, Adelina, said Monday that she and her son were watching TV reports about the girl's disappearance and that she told him "they should get that person and tie him up alive and burn him." "And then he said, 'What about the electric chair?'" she told ABC's Good Morning America. "And I said no because he's not going to suffer that much." Mrs. Avila added: "If my son is found guilty and sentenced to the death penalty, I could forgive him, but it would be hard." Yes, I know, cut & paste again. But that is the only way I could spell Alejandro Avila correctly...

what if he didn't do it?

i was going to say.... i havent kept up with this story, i was out of town when they nabbed this guy so I have no idea what led them to him but they are already talking death penalty before a fuckign arraignment. further, this was one kidnapping. why do these odd kidnappings grab our national attention? there are kidnappings and missing children all over?

someone grabbed a kid today.

Does the fact that not every time this kind of crime is committed it goes public make the crime any better? My question may not make sense like this, so let me slow it down. O.K. This case is being publicized and yes there are many cases that don't get any publicity at all. Just because those aren't publicized and this one is, does it make the crime against this little girl any less? I don't think so. I think that in the cases where they aren't publicized that it protects the family to some point yet fails them, on the same token, I fear that those families don't get the same justice. I refuse to defend this guy. I refuse to think that because this is publicized it means that he should get some kind of break. This man started planning this when this girl was 3 years old....Patrick...this could be your god-child. If a predator took you god-child and kidnapped him and sexually assaulted him twice and then murdered him, would you really plead lenience? I have never met your god-child but if I found out something liked this happened I would call for justice quickly and do anything that I could to help you. Maybe I take these kinds of things differently because I still fear for my nephews life. Maybe I am more harsh because it is a defenseless child and I have already seen one that barely survived. Either way, I think if that DNA evidence proves that it was this man, and if they have the proof they say that they do, then this man should fry. I realize that politically I think very different from many people on this board, but I think I am not the only one here who thinks this man deserves the death penalty.

there was DNA evidence against OJ and he wasn't found guilty. are you sure this guy is guilty? you, positive. if they put him in a room with you would you feel good about pulling the switch?

No,we have the trial and then pull the switch,and the O.J. trial was a travesty of justice.

No. Samantha's mother, Erin, should get that right first. After due process, that is.

The OJ trial was an absolute joke. Justice? Not even close there. I do agree that if he is found guilty that the Mom of that poor little girl should have the right to pull that switch. Would I do it? Yes I would.

Do two wrongs make a right?

they do here in SATAN WORLD. fucking heathens.

Wait till you become a parent,as much as outright torment my spawn has caused me,I always protected them,I wouldn't let my kids out front unless I was there watching,nobody had to pass a law to make me put them in carseats,or seatbelts,and it would have been a cold day in hell for me to leave them in the car with the keys in and the motor running,and dash inside the 7/11.I've lived with a pool since Ryan was 4 and I learned CPR,and have always had a fence and just used common sence to protect my kids,but I've always have been on the paranoid side and they were sooo cute,maybe the next generation will work it out.I wasn't as as spoiled as my kids,I had chores and responsobilities( I know I spelled that wrong,I'm flat out drunk).I might not have been the best mother.But I tried to be.And where did it get me? In jail,sometimes I just get bitter. But the good news is I'm post menopausal,no more pads for me,and I'm not going to take estrones either.I am not a Heathen.

eri, in the grand scheme of things, unless he admits it, he is innocent until proven guilty. try not to let the tabloid local news skew it any other way. the burden of proof is on the prosecution. i don't deny the magnitude of the crime he is accused, im just annoyed at the lynch mob mentality you and trace display with the "HANG EM HIGH" ideas of killing this guy before he has even been before a grand jury. fucking heathens.

"And where did it get me? In jail" J, was that you or one of your kids? I think I remember you mentioning one of your sons being in jail, but I am not sure

Oh yes, and Patrick, please re-read my opening statement: "As a father of two daughters, one 8 and the other 3, I must say that if they can prove beyond any shadow of a doubt (and there should be enough DNA evidence to do that), this man deserves the death penalty." Notice the "if then" statement in my formula.

well i've never been a parent so maybe i dont have the right perspective on this, but i think that the death penalty is wrong, no matter the crime, no matter the amount of proof. it just seems wrong that we have the power to take a life, as a government. Clearly we do have this power, and execute it in many other ways too, but it just seems wrong. It doesn't settle right morally. I understand the parents wanting vengeance, but that doesn't mean its right to take a life. Human instincts are not always moral, and besides, how would it figure that this man's death would make anyone feel any better about what's happened to the girls? I dont think it solves a damn thing.

But a price, equal and just price, must be paid by the person who committed these acts against the smallest of us. Children must be protected, it is all adult's duty to our future. To rape and kill a 5 year old is probably one of the worste acts a human being can engage in. There must be a terrible price for this terrible act.

"But a price, equal and just price, must be paid by the person who committed these acts against the smallest of us." have you experienced death? you know this to be a fair sum? Executing does not deter, so in effect, if this guy is guilty and executed, it wont do a god damn thing to protecting the children. the death penalty is such a conflict of interest to any self proclaimed christian i have no idea how they can even sit in church accepting such a barbaric practice.

i know how. its easier not to think about it is all. but you are right, i think they shouldn't. spunky, prison is pretty terrible. especially for one whose crime is against children.

they quote an old testament proverb, an eye for an eye, you should know that. Death is not a fair sum for raping and killing? What would be? Would you prefer raping and killing the convicted felon? There is no "fair sum" for that kind of act, at leaste none that anyone in their right mind would want to engage in. Deterence or not, there must be some type of harsh punishment for these types of acts. And, yes loss of liberty for life is a punishment for you and me, but in some cases, prison offers a better living then some had on the "outside". Take my wife's ex husband for example. The only time he gets 3 square meals a day and a warm, dry bed to sleep in, cable TV, a gym, etc is when he is in prison. He prefers jail to the gutters.

thats only human. and jesus taught that eye for an eye was not the answer, but rather we should turn the other cheek. sounds extreme, but true christianity is a pretty extreme way of life for our modern world. figuratively, turning the other cheek means giving 3 square meals a day. prison is hardly a christian haven for sinners, but its what we've got.

god i fucking hate that old testament shit. fucking heathens modern wisdom An eye for an eye will make the whole world go blind. Mahatma Gandhi An eye for an eye only leads to more blindness. Margaret Atwood Violence as a way of achieving racial justice is both impractical and immoral. It is impractical because it is a descending spiral ending in destruction for all. The old law of an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind. It is immoral because it seeks to humiliate the opponent rather than win his understanding; it seeks to annihilate rather than convert. Violence is immoral because it thrives on hatred rather than love. It destroys community and makes brotherhood impossible. It leaves society in monologue rather than dialogue. Violence ends by defeating itself. It creates bitterness in the survivors and brutality in the destroyers. Dr. Martin Luther King, jr.

yes.

if he did this and isn't put to death, then he wins and the victim and their family lose. the sheer horror the girl must have experienced . . . her unanswered calls for her mom, while some sick bastard pumps away at her then strangles her. justice demands that he not win. a no-win situation. it's inconceivable to me not to kill him if he's proven to have done it. whoever did it must die for what they did. sooner rather than later.

so if he dies the family wins? what sick twisted game is this? death cannot be made just by more death.

Here Here.

its no different than any other rape/murder. its just the fact the news has polarized it that has us in a frenzy. dave whats the difference between a 21 year old and a 5 year old being subjected to the same fate? I know you have a young daughter, so I expect this POV from you, it will probably happen to me should I ever have one too. The logic is still skewed though. I tend to believe prison conditions are indeed too lux. I saw a documentary on a maximum security prison here in CA and many inmates had a tv in their cell. thats bullshit. library yes. education yes. career programs to rehabilitate once released, yes. work detail for the city, country state, yes!. tv's, internet, nintendo etc, hell no.

rapist-murderers should all die. i said it's a no win. the victim has already lost. the perp must also lose. nobody will win. justice isn't always satisfying. if the victim were able to kill the attacker, that would be ok. but if the attacker wins, they're safe? are you kidding me?

i agree with that, just because time wasters are so pointless. its seems to me the right to rot your brain on that shit would be the first one to take away. but prison still isn't exactly a hotel. its degrading and your neighbors aint too friendly. My friend who visits prisons and talks to the inmates has told me stuff that scared me quite a bit, and that was just a women's prison that she visited. I know i'm no expert, but i think its as bad as anyone should have to be subjected to. I'm not saying no one experiences that and worse outside of prison, but they shouldn't, and if the state has custody of people they need to treat them with a certain amount of humanity.

Does not matter if this is a media event or not. Does not matter if this guy's death deters others or not. This is a sick mother fucker that should pay for what he has done.

at the beginning of that post i meant i agree with patrick, not dave. i disagree with dave wholeheartedly.

Besides, there is a huge difference between a defensless, innocent 5 year old and a 21 year old who may/should(?) have taken self defense classes.

you're still thinking eye for an eye. cant you see how futile that is?

I whole heartedly reject the notion that just locking him up for life is good enough. I also am shocked at the idea that raping a five year old should not be treated any differently then raping a 21 year old. Father or not, having a child should not be what is necessary to see differences.

in either situation, however, killing the rapist solves nothing.

The jail thing? That was me(that time) after Amee had my 1st grandson and got divorced,I let her move back home with the baby and totally supported him,took her to work,picked her up,etc,bought them anything they needed,she got on meth,then got Ryan doing it,he was 15 then,he's 22 now.Anyway I still had my cleaning business then,it was a Sun.,I had two accounts to do the day before and only did one because she promised she'd help me with it when she got off work Sun. and wanted me to take her somewhere that Sat. so I did.Sunday came around,I got up at 6 a.m.,cleaned their mess they left the night before,my husband and I were taking Jonathon to a festival,Amee wanted to go but she had work and I made her go to work.We got home that evening,there she was, she had somebody at work bring her home early,she hadn't taken the clothes out of the washer and put them in the dryer and folded them like I asked,as usual she wouldn't piss on me if I was on fire.Anyway I was put out as the house was a mess again after I cleaned that morning,so I'm cleaning it again,when I'm ready to go do the account she was suppose to help me with she was too "sick" to come along.So I went by myself got home about 11:30 p.m. The house was a mess again and they were all watching the movie Communion(to this day she swears she had a close encounter,but that's another story).And I was pissed and tired we had words about the laundry not being done,then I went about picking up.About midnight Ryan got a phone call and I was telling him once again no more calls after 10,when Amee decides to give her input.Anyway we were all verbally yelling,I was in the hall,she came running down it and knocked me against the wall,she ran out in the garage screamming at the top of her lungs that I was a psycho bitch and I'd never see my grandson again,my washer and dryer are in my garage and when I opened the door she was bent over the laundry basket,still screaming and I saw her ass and kicked it once symbolically mostly as I told her I wanted her out of my house,then I turned around and came inside,but before I had even taken 2 steps she was on me,yelling for Ryan to call the cops as she was pulling my hair out and gave me a black eye. The cop that came had been here twice before,once I guess she thought there was a prowler and called,I slept through that and once to make some ex-boyfriend go away cause it was 3 in the morning and he was drunk and wouldn't leave.Anyway I do think he was attracted to her,how my husband slept through this I'll never know,but since Ryan was backing her up,he said it was their word against mine,he was taking me in.To add insult to injury he said since it was a domestic violence situation he should take both of us in,but he was going to let her slide cause she had to watch the baby,and when I got out that morning exhausted and pissed off,I had to watch the baby anyway,she rarely paid any attention to him,nor does she now.They were both tweaking.

damn... how is it going now?

hey spunk, your letting your emotions dictate. "Besides, there is a huge difference between a defensless, innocent 5 year old and a 21 year old who may/should(?) have taken self defense classes." are you on crack? no one may/should take self defense classes for fucksake man. thats irrelavent. in the eyes of the law there is no difference in murdering an adult or murdering a child...you might be able to tack on additional charges that apply to minors, but murder is murder, rape is rape, a victim is a victim. if there's a law dork around here (marge) feel free to correct me. dave i don't necessarily identify with your win/loose position.

So, you do not think there is a difference between forcing yourself onto a 5 year old girl and a 21 year old girl? That in itself says a lot about you, Patrick.

Oh, and in the eyes of the law, there is a difference. Look at the charges: 1 count kidnapping 2 counts forcable lewd act on minor under the age of 14. 1 count murder. 2 of those counts are considered "special circumstances", so these charges qualify for death penalty if found guilty in the state of California.

The argument about how cushy prisoners get treated assumes that all prisoners get treated the same, which is not true. If Avila is convicted and sent to a max security prison, he's toast anyway, and probably will get a more horrible and lingering punishment than the death penalty. At least with the death penalty , there's an end in sight. Life in prison? worse in my book, especially with conditions in prisons getting worse and worse. Avila will have no one watching his back in prison, if he is convicted of this crime. Child molesters/killers aren't exactly at the top of the pecking order in there, you know. There are many fathers in prison with the same attitudes as spunky and dave., and they'll have access to this guy to express those opinions the way they see fit. So, it will likely be "eye for an eye" - he'll end up raped (multiple times, probably) and then shived in a shower or the yard, if he's not lucky enough to get solitary confinement. which he won't. If he gets the death penalty, well, he may in fact get treated much better than if he gets life, and is guaranteed a much more cleaner death in any case. as far as patrick's equation of the rape/murder of a 5-year-old with that of a 21-year-old, i think he may be saying that any such instance is equally tragic. I don't think it makes much difference to the victim's family when such an event happens, how old they are. I guess you would have to ask someone who's had both a 5-year-old and a21-year-old raped and murdered, perhaps then we'd get a clear perspective.

no shit spunky. thats what i said and there are coordinating sentences with each of the other charges . An adult can be kidnapped. And the lewd acts on a minor would translate to rape if it were an adult. Ever hear of a charge "Murder of Minor" or Murder of an of age Adult"? There is no distinction. there is no difference in forcing yourself on anyone, no matter their age.its force dumbass. if a man uses his brute strength to hold a 5 year old down, or a gun to hold a 21 year old down or a fucking broom to hold an 80 year old down, its all the same. yes it says i can view the law objectively. what does it say to you?

spunk, for the record, i am appalled that this would happen to a 5 year old, emotionally. moreso than if it were an adult. i admit that, but i admit, its my emotions and nothing more. emotions do make law sound.

"Executing does not deter, so in effect, if this guy is guilty and executed, it wont do a god damn thing to protecting the children." It will do a god damned thing to protect the children. It will ensure that this particular man will not be able to hurt another child as long as he lives.

l i f e w i t h o u t p a r o l e say it together now......

I would not want to punish anyone without emotion... It is, in my opinion, a very necessary component.

Amen, Sem. Letting him rot in prison for life would be a much better punishment. All of this killing doesn't realy solve anything.

I want to get one of those yellow signs in my car that says, "Adult On Board". Spunky, the 21 year old or 59 year old who may or may not have taken self-defense classes and who got brutally raped and murdered is also somebody's child.

Life without possibility of parole....isn't that what they gave Charles Manson? Doesn't he still have parole hearings anyways, because the law was changed? I know I don't have all of the details here in front of me, but if the laws did change, then this guy could get paroled. Life without parole is about as effective as a condom. Abstinence is the only way to ENSURE pregnancy will not happen. The death penalty is the only way to ENSURE that this man won't do it again.

he was sentenced to death. it was over turned when California repealed the death penalty in 1972. He has since been serving "life". He will never be paroled. "Life without parole" is just that. it also varies from state to state but despite what you think, it is entirely possible to see to it someone dies in prison, not of a death penalty either.

fucking heathens

"Spunky, the 21 year old or 59 year old who may or may not have taken self-defense classes and who got brutally raped and murdered is also somebody's child." True.

Maybe they'll freeze old Charlie a la Ted Williams once he kicks and he'll be out killing Sharon Tate's great great grandspawn in 100 years. You just never know, do you?

Actually there have been times when lifers have been paroled,I'm going to try to look it up.I was watching Court T.V. or F.B.I. Files or something like that the other night,and it featured a case where due to overcrowding in the Texas prison system,they let out a lifer a killer of two women and he got out and killed a few more.Tex Watson is in prison for the Manson killings and has fathered several children while in prison for life,one of the Manson girls just came up for parole again,thank God she was denied.Dougie's right about the age thing,my kids are grown and if somebody murdered them like that little girl was they need to die and I'd be glad to pull the switch.With that said,I'll have to say that that is the reason I stopped going to church after many debates with myself about turning the other cheek versus an eye for an eye. If somebody killed my child in a car accident,I could forgive them,in the heat of anger in self-defense,probably.But not the way that poor baby died.I'm with Dave,they live, it's like there is no closure for the family and loved ones left behind.

if a feral dog raped and murdered this girl, it would be shot almost immediately. my feeling is that people who do things like this forfeit their humanity and should be treated as a feral animal once the proof is there. proof like finding the guy's nearly fresh sperm inside her. as to the case where someone might be wrongly framed through evidence tampering and false testimony resulting in their execution, those parties responsible for that should be locked away forever in a dark room. or something. i can't believe what pussies some of you folks are. we're not talking about smoking weed or jaywalking.

I don't know why but these true crime stories have taken over my life for the last 30 years,if I didn't smoke the weed,I would have made a great detective,I can do profiles and all that. And D.N. A. testing just keeps getting better and better,more precise,and what I've always been interested in was their minds,how they came to be like that.Dave,where you going to,where ya been? You kind of surprised me,but not really when I think about it.These people who don't agree with us,are from what I can tell,childless,give them time,but even if they didn't have offspring how would they feel if it was their mother,sister,dad,cousin???????

i don't agree, for the record, and i have a child.

dave., i get the feeling you don't think anyone should live. period.

i think samantha runnion should live. j, i dunno, i dunno. watching the days go by.

getting a "life" sentence is one thing j. getting "life without parole" is another. "life" usually translates to about 25-30 years.

getting a "life" sentence is one thing j. getting "life without parole" is another. "life" usually translates to about 25-30 years.

at least until she's old enough to start smoking crack, or, god forbid, rise up through the ranks of some corporation and become aimlessly rich.

sure, but until she does something heinous like that, she should be allowed to play board games outside of her apartment without having to worry about getting raped and strangled. fuck, man. people, little kids especially, should not have to worry about getting raped and killed. the terrorists are winning. kill them now.

you know, i cant say how i would react if one of my close relatives were victimized like this. its never happened. but regardless of my raw emotion in that state, i cannot support government-sanctioned killing. it makes no sense to me. how can more dead bodies help solve anything, ever, no matter the circumstances? It seems morbid that a family would feel better about having more people dead. Maybe theres some feeling that this person cant hurt you again, but there should be the same feeling with a prison, and you cant kill all the bad guys. Some people have problems, some people kill. Hell, why am i talking, i dont know what to do with these people. but i just cant justify killing them to myself.

I think Roman Polanski said it best when he said, "The coldest winter I ever spent was a really long time ago."

Damn, Ted, that doesn't even make sense.

I know, I'm bored. Sue me.

i don't think how the relatives of the victimized would feel is a good basis for law. laws should be rational.

did i say that yesterday? wait. did i type that? wait, did i think that? deju fucking vu i had the very same thought thank god the rest of the world has its head on straight. also have you been watching the Moussaoui proceedings? that guy is cracking me up. he thinks everyone is conspiring against him, then he goes on to say he wants a trial by jury saying "I know that the American people are my enemies, but they are honest enemies," He's guilty, he's not guilty. There's a Saturday night live skit somewhere in there.

Everytime the US votes against human rights proposals in the UN, it gets easier to understand why we are so despised. It's because we act like assholes all the time.

No, people. It is about being a sovereign nation. Read the article again. The US blocked it because it gave other countries the right to inspect our prisons and dictate what our prisons should be like. It is our business. Not the fucking world. Remember a little thing that was signed in 1776? I think it was called the declaration of independence. The UN should be about how one country treats another country, not how a country runs itself for god's sake. What the US Government does inside the US is up to the US government, not up to any freaking self-appointed committee...

that is a whole other subject tht does not support your claim that this monster (nothing can be much human that can rape, torture, and kill one of the most innocent of us all), when he is found guilty, deserves something he denied another, life.

So its ok for us to violate other sovereign nations with weapons inspections and the like, but its not ok for the UN to see to it we are abiding by a human rights treaty we signed? whats the difference spunk? "What the US Government does inside the US is up to the US government, not up to any freaking self-appointed committee..." So can Iraq? North Korea? China? Iran?

we meddle in other country's affairs all the time. shiiiiiiiit man.

Put your facts straight. We did not decide not to attend, we were voted out by Governments that routinely violate human rights. Cuba, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Syria-five of the ten countries rated the "worst of the worst" in Freedom House's annual survey of political rights and civil liberties-now sit on the commission. China and Russia are also members, although they rule, respectively, Tibet and Chechnya, designated by Freedom House as the least free of the world's various nonsovereign territories. Not a word was said by the commission about Libya, Syria, or Saudi Arabia-not even about their treatment of women, which, needless to say, falls considerably short of the commission's feminisminspired standards. Nor was mention made of most of the countries scoring a "near-worst" on Freedom House's scale, including Vietnam, Laos, Uzbekistan, Rwanda, Eritrea and Bhutan. Besides, the commission is essentially toothless. With a warrant only to hear grievances and spotlight abuses, it can neither punish violators nor compensate victims. You want Syria inspecting our prisons to make sure they meet thier standards?

So can Iraq? Iraq invaded Kuwait. North Korea? North Korea invaded South Korea China? China is not subject to any searches. Iran? Inran is not subject to any searches. Shiiiiiit man

if killing them solves nothing and not killing them solves nothing, why not kill them? specifically why? i would gladly die in the attempt to break into a prison and avenge the death of my daughter if she were a victim like samantha runnion and the person responsible for her death were inside. shame on anyone who would be content knowing the man who raped and killed their child was merely locked away forever. there can be no moving on until that person is dead dead dead. dead. dispassionate cretins.

I noticed the statement about most (not all, but most) of the people here who are against the death penalty (IF this guy is proven guilty), not being parents themselves. My next question to go along with this would be how many of you have been victims of a violent rape? Can identify with what this girl was put through? I unfortunately have to admit that it did happen to me, when I was 19 and pregnant with Hayley. I have NO REMORSE WHATSOEVER for the death of a rapist. Especially a man who rapes a 5 year old child. If this poor little girl had survived, she would have had emotional problems for the rest of her life. The crimes this man committed were nothing like not paying a parking ticket, or shoplifting, or smoking pot and getting busted. These crimes are heinous. Life in prison is just not justice for that little girl or her family.

spunk, once again your paranoia and blind patriotism prevents you from getting it. Its not like 'them damn Syrians would be inspecting our prisons'. It would be UN standards dingdong. Which happen to be higher than ours. The measure by the UN is mostly like indeed toothless but its better than nothing. If it could push other countries to step up their behavior (ahem!!! the U.S. too) i see no wrong. But lets cut the shit, the real reason is not because it violates "states rights", but because it could upset the detention of prisoners of war in Cuba. God forbid we give them their due process and rights warranted by the Geneva convention. God forbid Rumsfield have an international human rights commission knocking on his door. Fuck that guy. Fucking heathen. dave "shame on anyone who would be content knowing the man who raped and killed their child was merely locked away forever. there can be no moving on until that person is dead dead dead. dead." why is there shame in this? we don't know wht death brings. we do know what being locked up forever brings. living would be greater torture than death. fucking heathen.

the question here is whether or not we should recogize the UN as a higher power. the one-world-government question. how can you support things like that and yet whine that bush was illegally elected? are you concerned about representational leadership? did you vote for kofi anan? this is the problem with americans. they don't understand what the fuck they're talking about. they temporally short sighted and the 'big picture' is lost on them. as for the death penalty, it is EXPLICITLY un-christian. it is in the bible, it is in the later books (you know, the ones with jesus in them?) it comes out of jesus' mouth.

"If, when men come to blows, they hurt a woman who is pregnant and she suffers a miscarriage, though she does not die of it, the man responsible must pay the compensation demanded of him by the woman's master; he shall hand it over after arbitration. But should she die, you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stroke for stroke." (Exodus 21:22-25) The "compensation" this passage mentions does not refer to physical compensation, but monetary compensation. So, the passage may not give religious permission for capital punishment, but it is horribly sexist. (stolen: http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~marto/adpp/flanagan.htm)

i've never whined bush was illegally elected. I've joked about it. but seriously speaking i don't believe this. i don't know enough of the law and precedent under which the supreme court ruled in which to say that. in my limited scope, the supreme court was put there legally, and the ruled on seemingly sound legal ground. as far as I can tell Constitutional procedures were followed. like i said before, i think Gore "failed" more than Bush "stole". I didnt vote for Kofi, but I support the UNs vision of human rights. I support the US having to answer to a world body. I think its necessary for global checks and balances before our "bullshit" runs this ship aground.

Eri--yes. Knowing that he is dead wouldn't solve anything for me. And furthermore, I wholly support having to answer to a world body. We haven't always shown ourselves to be responsible enough to handle power (School of the Americas, anyone?). It seems ridiculous to me that we can demand to inspect other nations and not allow ourselves to be inspected as well. After all, if we have nothing to hide, what are we worrying about?

"After all, if we have nothing to hide, what are we worrying about?" ! that's the arugment the totalitiarnists have been using to push their homeland security crap. why do you feel it is ok for our government to hand over control of the people to an organization which is not bound by our constitution?

jesus explicitly said that the eye for an eye crap was wrong. it is in matthew. 5:38-39.

"why do you feel it is ok for our government to hand over control of the people to an organization which is not bound by our constitution?" I dont think of it as "control". clearly the current administration seems at times not bound by the Constitution.

Old yeller school of justice, boys and girls. If it's too dangerous to be around people, then it needs to be shot...even if it isn't its fault that it's dangerous now, even if it was at one point the best dog ever.

who is lying?

the mother spoke up today blaming the jury who set him free on his previous offense. i wholeheartedly agree with her. may that judge and jury and defense team never again experience another moment of peace.

I remember all the other kids in class cried when Travis shot Old Yeller. I, on the otherhand, stood up and shouted, "YEAH, PUMP THAT FUCKER FULL OF LEAD! MORE MORE MORE! FUCKING NO GOOD FLEABAG OF A MONGREL!" That was last year when I was doing volunteer reading to 4th graders at the local elementary school. The looks on those kids' faces (and the teacher's face) were priceless -- memories I will have to cherish, because they haven't invited me back this year for some reason. Budgetary cuts, I reckon.

>I dont think of it as "control". define control? >clearly the current administration seems at >times not bound by the Constitution. this has nothing to do with the current administration.

my friend who was violently raped does not support the death penalty. My two cents for today.

Ernie: They are lying.

having something bad happen to you does not make you an authority on justice. if anything, it potentially removes your ability to be rational.

Men who rape and murder 5 year old girls do not qualify as humans

there you go playing god again spunky. god damn uppity christians

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=533&e=2&cid=533&u=/ap/20020726/ap_on_re_us/missouri_missing_girl_4 you know. . . you're right. these guys deserve better. eat shit.

what if someone innocent had to die along with the convicted murder? you need two bodies, the evil guy and some innocent of roughly the same age/gender/race. is the death penalty still a good idea?

what if you putting callous remover on your dick made it disappear?

"having something bad happen to you does not make you an authority on justice. if anything, it potentially removes your ability to be rational." I agree. I don't have children and have had that thrown in my face a few times when trying to have a reasonable discussion about the death penalty, though not in this case specifically. For a variety of reasons, I am adamantly opposed to the death penalty and I hope he gets it. How's that for rational? I can't help it; don't jump all over me, I'm just being honest. Driving into work this morning I heard her mother talking about the jurors who let him off. They also said they had a Peter Pan birthday party for her and had her friends over and I almost had to pull over to cry. And Spunky, this man and anyone else who would do something like this is a human. I see what you're saying, but in my mind to say that is to suggest that they don't have the human capacity to know this is wrong. And unless that happens to be the case, they must be treated as humans with that ability.

"the mother spoke up today blaming the jury who set him free on his previous offense. i wholeheartedly agree with her. may that judge and jury and defense team never again experience another moment of peace." i doubt the mother was present during that previous trial so she should really shut her mouth. thats misplaced anger and pain. understandable but misplaced. have you served on a jury dave? in criminal law, the burden of proof lies on the shoulders of the prosecution. its more likely the prosecution dropped the ball. I don't know about you, but i took my jury service deadly serious. i voted "not guilty" for someone who was arrested selling sex. I was pretty sure the guy did it, but the proof had not been presented. i could only go on what was presented to me in court by the prosecution. I had to judge his case by the letter of the law and evidence. Prosecution had failed on a few key points. 10 out of the 11 jurors agreed with me wholeheartedly. So wishing the judge, jury, defense team and ill future is so fucking misplaced. Its the prosecution that failed. Clearly the defense did their job, we have to assume the judge and the jury did theirs too. a jury is a fantastic thing to be a part of, if advised properly by the judge i can't find many flaws with it.

I think our system is flawed, and probably in need of improvements. I do not know what those are, but I do know that "going with your gut" when sitting on a jury is completely unacceptable and is not going to solve anything. This morning I might have agreed with Dave, but I think Patrick's right. Maybe I can be rational.

aside from the pool of blubbering idiots in which the jury system draws from, because its majority rule or absolute majority rule (in order to avoid being "hung") the chances of an entire jury going on their gut feeling is slim, unless he/she happens to be the eleventh juror in a 5, 5 vote.

OK, for the record. There's no inherent right to life. If you think there is, I hope you don't eat anything. Ever. That means plants, too, you grazers. So, the sanctity of life is guaranteed in this country by laws making murder illegal. That's right, people, it's not just because it's wrong but because it is against the law. The law, which is a tricksy bastard, actually draws a distinction between murder and execution. How can it do that, since they both involve the taking of a human life? Here's where it gets really complicated: the laws guarantee the sanctity of life and they also stipulate the exceptions. Guess what? It works. You know why it works? Because there are no objective, outside, external definitions of these things. They are internal to a system: in this case, the variety of sub-systems which comprise the legal system of the United States. Is there an inherent contradiction? No, because the system itself is premised on the damned distinction. Should people be executed within this system? Well, it's damned fucked up and that means lots of innocent people are condemned to death and actually killed every year. Is the flaw in the theory or the implementation? Implementation. Hands down. So, no...I don't think people SHOULD be executed. But they should be sentenced to execution and all executions should be put off until we fix the implementation of justice in the U.S. Then go go gadget go with the capital punishment! I am a firm believer in the Old Yeller System which is that some people, for whatever reason, just need killing. Don't act like we can't identify them -- we can. We do. We just lump a bunch of other fuckers in with them whose actions do NOT merit capital punishment. Aren't you glad we don't live in a democracy, where I could cancel out your votes directly? By the way, Patrick is right. Murder is murder is murder. We all want to act like children are somehow more sacrosanct and people who kill them somehow that much more wretched. It's horrible, it is grounds for special circumstances argument (legally speaking)...but it's not materially different than any other murder.

"There's no inherent right to life. If you think there is, I hope you don't eat anything. Ever. That means plants, too, you grazers." Well the very concept of "rights" is particular to certain societies so I guess I kind of agree that there is no inherent "right" to life. But I don't follow your eating logic. Let's try this, though I'm not sure I buy it completely either. Let's assume that everything has a right to live. Fine, but the meaning/point of everything's life is not universal. That's so PETA and why I hate the whole animal "rights" argument...but let's not go there, please. My right to live means that I have the right to live and do what it means to be a human being by existing within the human society that other humans have created and as long as it does not violate anyone else's rights. A carrot's right to live means that it has the right to be a carrot living within carrot society and in that society carrots get eaten and die having fulfilled their life's purpose. Now, do I believe that makes everything that humans do okay? That is almost as funny as the idea of a carrot society. Of course not, and that's why we have laws and policy and such and everything else you said. I can see where my logic can be used to rationalize just about anything, I just wanted to say that a universal claim to life should not assume a universal meaning for that life.

"So wishing the judge, jury, defense team and ill future is so fucking misplaced. Its the prosecution that failed. clearly the defense did their job, we have to assume the judge and the jury did theirs too. a jury is a fantastic thing to be a part of, if advised properly by the judge i can't find many flaws with it." the defense exhibited the worst kind of lawyering: defending the guilty. it's pretty clear that, if avila is found to have been the killer in this case, he was also guilty in the prior case and very likely assaulted 1 or more other kids who never came forward. the defense treated it like a sport rather than a quest for justice. the judge and jury, delivering a verdict of innocent while they likely believed he was guilty, also reduced the whole event to a game. the victims were, officially at least, shown to be liars when they were not. the liar was rewarded with freedom to re-offend. all because the prosecution could not come up with material evidence. you defend this psychotic parody of justice. you're fucking proud of it. perhaps the only improper thing about her statement (and mine) is that they're premature.

I'm in women's studies, no one needs to talk to me about protecting the guilty and how fucked up things can be, particularly when it comes to certain crimes. With regards to these, we need to do some restructuring to the process. But that has to be a systematic change. Dave, maybe you are right and maybe this is proof of that. However, I still think Patrick's points are valid with regards to staying bound to an established process.

"aside from the pool of blubbering idiots in which the jury system draws from" Registered voters. That is what makes up the jury pool..... Maybe the ones Patrick is referring to are in Florida?

kazoo, i respectfully disagree with your pragmatism and i sympathize with your dilemna. the system can't apply the same criteria to petty crime that it applies to offenses of this magnitude and be just. if we acknowledge that it's unjust, we may as well do away with the whole facade and revert back to . . . the darkness back there. "Men who rape and murder 5 year old girls do not qualify as humans" "there you go playing god again spunky." dude, if that's your argument, how about this: HE FUCKING STARTED IT! maybe that will put it on a level you can relate to.

"there you go playing god again spunky. god damn uppity christians I am not so sure I claim to be a christian anymore. As far as uppity, I would like to think I am better then a child rapist and murderer....

"the system can't apply the same criteria to petty crime that it applies to offenses of this magnitude and be just." I agree with you. My point is that it is not for individual juries to decide and implement this within the system we have. If you are going to talk about changing the burden of proof or the role of the defense team in cases of this magnitude, I am all for it. But I think that this goes beyond setting precedent. It's late and my Statler & Waldorf cynicism mechanism is kicking in and soon I'll resort a lot of generalizations that I can't support. Not against you or anyone else specifically, of course. I'm burnt. I was supposed to be on a politics/news-break anyway...so much for that.

My balls itch just like Dave's.

J, sometimes you bring just the tiniest teat to the corner of my eye. Also, i'm setting up an altar to Margaret's brain.

TEAR!!! I meant Tear, not Teat. What an image that is.

circus freak. "he's got tits fer eyes! tits fer eyes!"

I was picturing that. For the record,I would consider it a pleasure to be the one to pull the switch,[or whichever mechanism brings about death],in this heinous crime.Not on circumstantial evidence, but on DNA evidence. Pussies. If the press then asked me for a statement,on how I felt,about doing it,my honest response would be: "NEXT" Pedophiles cannot be rehabilitated. I can only imagine the horror that precious child went through,with that bastard. Did you know she fought like a little devil? Lots of DNA evidence under her fingernails. I guess this could be construed to mean that she was not "okay" with what was being done to her. Pussies. I would gladly be the one to remove this vile creature from the living. For those of you whom don't believe in capital punishment,please forward me your physical addresses,and I will be glad to send them right along to the DA,along with your personal "ok", that when paroled,he can come and live next door to you,or your daughters,nieces,grandchildren,etc. Pussies. I wonder what that poor childs last thought was???? What was her breaking point?? Did she go into shock,or was she alert and aware of everything painful and terrifying thing that was being done to her? Pussies. Just for the record,and this is a very distressing bit of info.............it is actually much more costly to put someone to death,than to incarcerate them for life. Some where about 7 million dollars,what with all the appeals etc, versus a couple of million to keep them in jail. But I still say that some crimes are just to heinous to let the perpretrator survive. I honestly would feel no remorse in personally pulling the switch. I would probably fuck with the bastard a little first, a few little tiny throws of the switch,jiggle jiggle,that kind of thing, might even then ask him, "are you scared? does this hurt?" My heart remains with that terriied child. Pussies. Don't forget to send me your addys.

To suggest that being against the death penalty means is equal to being heartless and ignorant; or that they don't think that this monster should suffer; or that they would or should sacrifice their own children is just as heartless and ignorant. Having said that, I still list myself among the ranks of those who are against the death penalty but would not be sorry (and not just be secretly relieved) if he got it. Though if the system he's incarecerated in separates its death row inmates, then that is too good for him. I hope this man suffers. If he doesn't get the death penalty I hope he takes it in the ass with every turn around the corner, every single day of the rest of his worthless existence. My heart is with that little girl. My heart is with every little girl and little boy who has to live with having been abused. My heart is with every parent who has to live in a world in which this is a threat. And my heart is with every child who has to go out into this world, because we don't need this one paroled to know that they are already our neighbors, maybe even our friends, teachers, and clergymen.

"the defense exhibited the worst kind of lawyering: defending the guilty." give me a break. dave, guilty or not, our system offers you a right to an attorney, a right you might find yourself embracing someday (hopefully not of course). the job of the defense is just that. if the man was guilty in the previous case (of which ive read nothing about), then the prosecution failed, the police failed, evidence was not gathered and presented. the prosecution demonstrated the worst kind of lawyering letting the guilty go. to bring into question the role of defense attorneys, public or not is to question one the very foundations of our legal system. There are instances where nothing but a molecule of DNA would exempt someone from a guilty verdict. Every shred of evidence says they've done it, and a molecule seen under a powerful microscope is what sets a man free. Imagine that. What about defending the "guilty" then? You're out of your mind on this dave..you're demomnstrating the mob mentality that scares the pee out of me. dave your just short of admonishing one of the key elements and rights you are afforded as someone charged with a crime over this one case. I would think you would view such a right in high regards, even for those deemed "guilty" in the public courtroom. and as far as my comments to spunky, i was just ribbing him and im pretty sure he knows that. further why do people assume the option to death penalty is parole? Why do you people assume those who don't support the death penalty don't simultaneously advocate stiffer life sentences. This coin has two sides and its called "life with out parole" that means NO parole hearings. Nothing. he/she stays put until they die. i think we sell our human race short advocating the death penalty. i d like to think we are spiritually and morally higher than that, but am constantly reminded we aren't. i consider being against the death penalty a morally higher ground. while the "ole yeller" school of thought is interesting, and perhaps appropos on the great plains of 19th century america, id like to think we've risen above such barbarism. What gets me is that irrational, emotional lather this case has worked everyone up in. Like this doesnt happen countless times a year, all over. Like this is the first we've heard of this. Havent you paid attention to the god damn milk cartons, the flyers you get in the mail every week??? "I wonder what that poor childs last thought was????" WHY? why are you sick people obsessing over this? for fucks sake. I don't want to know what her last thought was. no offense kazoo but your last paragraph "my heart goes out..." its this kind of facade put up by the general american public, especially politicians, that makes me puke. if we're so god damn concerned about saving the children, why are they failing miserably in schools, why cant we buy proper books, build proper schools, pay teachers properly? why are so many starving and going with out? if we acted on a fraction the "my heart goes out to..." our children would be far better off. fucking heathens.

"no offense kazoo but your last paragraph "my heart goes out..." its this kind of facade put up by the general american public, especially politicians, that makes me puke. if we're so god damn concerned about saving the children, why are they failing miserably in schools, why cant we buy proper books, build proper schools, pay teachers properly? why are so many starving and going with out? if we acted on a fraction the "my heart goes out to..." our children would be far better off." I am offended. You know nothing about me and what I do and how much of my life is spent working with and for children and women. Heaven forbid I should want to open up a bit to a bunch of strangers. Fuck you, I told you where my heart was, not my sweat. I'm sorry I put a little compassion forth and not a bunch of condescending preaching. I couldn't agree with you more, but don't insult me by lumping me in with the general public and politicians.

Mob mentality? MOB MENTALITY? i see no pitchforks. I see no torches. I see a demand for justice, in this uncaring world we live in. Somebody flies a plane in the world trade center, and what do we do? Fight amongst ourselves and point our fingers at each other for the blame. That makes me sick. Regardless of who knows what, not one of those FBI or CIA or NSA agents flew the planes into the buildings. A person goes out and kills hundreds of people, and who gets the blame? The cruel mother or hard father. A man takes the life of an innocent who has never killed anyone. And we think that taking his life makes us no better then him? I do not get that. Did Samantha get a trial by jury? Did someone have to prove she deserved to die? Was there anyone fighting for her life, besides herself? The constitution, by the way, says life and liberty will not be jepordized without due process. It does not garauntee the right to live. He will get his constitutional right, as he should. He will not get a person who outweighs him 5 times, at least, and that person will not rape him (there are two counts of forceable sexual acts on a minor), and that person will not strangle him to death (ever been strangled? I have, to the point of unconscienceness, several times). He will most likely get an injection that will put him to sleep before it stops his heart. We will show him far more mercy then he showed Samantha. That is not mob mentality. That is not even justice or revenge. But, it is constitutional. And the right thing to do.

PS, I love you Czar

patrick, you've persuaded me to include the prosecution in my indictment. it still doesn't change my observation that our legal system as it exists now serves truth and justice almost accidentally and is much more fond of it's own rules than it is of either truth or justice. either way, innocent proven guilty or guilty proven innocent, the system is so full of holes that the only thing it effectively protects is itself. i still think you're wildly misguided about (not) snuffing the creatures who rape and murder, but that's simply one of those polarizing issues like abortion that will never be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. and no, i have never served on a jury. remember? i ignored my summons. fuck them, i will never participate in that madness. when money can buy an exoneration and lack of money virtually guarantee an indictment in cases where there is insufficient material evidence, i withdraw cooperation. so, go on and love your precious farce. you are a fool.

"lack of money virtually guarantee an indictment" i meant 'a conviction', not 'an indictment'. and, i'm referring to cases where evidence is lacking. when there's good evidence, it works fine (unless you're o.j. simpson's victims). when the evidence is merely testimony of defendant vs. plaintiff, it's simply sport. fuck that.

I have never denied my barbaric nature. Patrick,are you "peeing" yourself,like that poor child almost undoubtedly did? Kazoo,I am neither heartless or ignorant. What I am is a parent. Did you know that these pedophiles molest approx 200 times,before they are brought to the attention of the police?Perhaps those numbers don't alarm you,or Patrick,but they scare the hell out of me. Patrick,you should think about what that poor child went through,because untill we as a society,make a stand on this, it will keep happening. If by putting a vile creature to death,it scares even one pedophile,into not molesting a child,then I say thats a damn good start. Jails are over populated,and sometimes prisoners get released,to make room for the new offenders.Sure,guys been in here 15 years,model prisoner,lets let him go. Outcome,he starts molesting AGAIN. He can't help himself. Pedophiles can't control their urges.Or,what if he escapes? I believe if we have stricter consequences,[ie death penality],that it might scare some pedophiles into not acting on their urges.And,as I previously stated,if this saves even one child,its a start. And Patrick,only a "fucking heathen's" heart wouldn't go out to the children and parents that have to endure such monsterous acts. I sincerely hope you don't fall into that catagory. [I love you,too Spunkster.]

A jury is only as good as the people on it and a fickle jury will convict and on appeal it's a mistrial,and I have served jury duty.It's the roll of the dice.If there is a chance that somebody is innocent they can have their day in court,but like in jeffery Dahmers case and he's got evidence on the stove,or John Wayne Gacey fuck them,you know they fucking DID IT!!!! That little girl had solid D.N.A. under her nails and that's how they nailed him.And actually some men after being in prison for a long period of time like it,it's just easier than trying to make it in the real world.

Hey Czarina you posted that when I must have been posting mine,psychic sisters:)

Heh,heh :)

in the case where i was accused of a crime but there was no damning evidence, i'd be much more comfortable if i were guilty, knowing that there was a good chance the system would fail, than i would be if i were innocent, knowing there was a good chance the system would fail. the system favors the liar, the unethical and the amoral. what's wrong with that scenario?

Cz, Sorry about that...I was just making a point. I hardly think you are ignorant and heartless. And those numbers do horrify me.

And at least I don't have teats fer eyes!!! No apology nesc,you can speak freely here.Thats what this place is all about. And Dave,should you ever be in such a position,[accused of a crime],I would consider it an honor,to be a material witness on your behalf :)

I object to the teleological notion that we're somehow better than we were in a previous historical epoch. We're not better, we've just rearranged our priorities to conform to our new circumstances. I reiterate: some people just need killin'.

Yeah, like that guy on that Verizon wireless commercial that goes, "Can you hear me now? Good! Can you hear me now? Good! Can you hear me now? Good! Can you hear me now? Good! Can you hear me now? Good! Can you hear me now? Good! Can you hear me now? Good! Can you hear me now? Good! Can you hear me now? Good! Can you hear me now? Good!" And Dana Carvey.

I love you,Margret.

czarina, kazoo... tv imitating life imitating tv imitating, what? i watched a southpark episode last night that reminds of this nonsense. did you see it? they built a wall around southpark to keep kidnappers out. then the news said that kidnappers were most likely to be someone the kid knows, so the parents followed the kids everywhere. The they strapped the kids in with triangulator helmets ensuring they could be tracked. then the news said the kidnappers were often one of the parents, so the parents sent the kids away to an undisclosed location.... hilarious episode. particularly poignant. mob mob mob a rich girl gets kidnapped, gains the worlds "heart and compassion" because it makes headlines news for weeks! a middle class girl gets kidnapped and raped etc, america mourns. props the mother up on every news channel. We should listen to her why? she's anymore poignant NOW than 6 months ago WHY? and so the media tweaks your emotional anus like floyd the jailhouse tranny. your pawns, tools. the media is fucking you sideways and you dont even know it. cut the shit already. stop acting like these people you've never known touched your heart. They "touch my heart" as much as a stranger touches my heart. You want your heart touched, you go find out how much this happens on a national, or hell an international level, you bleed for one american rich girl, you better bleed for every little girl or boy this happens too. no one's heart bled as much when the catholic scandel broke. there were no teary eyed mothers propped up in front of the media to tweak your bleeding hearts then. there were only gruff looking priests whom we wanted to hang. there were victims there too. little girls and boys just like the ones that are our focus of attention here. did you care then? nooooooo stop acting like you really care. you don't. you say you do, you gab at the sewing circle that you do. you say you'd flip the switch to fry this guy before he's even been tried and convicted (i.e. mob mentality) and maybe you would. but you dont care. the crime angers you, you project it happening to your children. mob mentality. this takes NOTHING away from the heinousness of the crime. Do I care? Of COURSE! Do I care ANYMORE than I did six months ago when none of this was making headline news? Yes! Do you? NO! I care as much as I can about a child Ive never known! How many of you are honest enough with yourselves to admit that? "Patrick,you should think about what that poor child went through,because untill we as a society,make a stand on this, it will keep happening." NO! Im not making a stand on this any more or less than i did 6 months or 5 years ago. Give me a break??? It will keep happening as long as the human race exists. It will keep happening despite the CNN coverage, despite the candle light vigils, despite your hearts bleeding. "If by putting a vile creature to death,it scares even one pedophile,into not molesting a child,then I say thats a damn good start." Czarina, time and time again it is proven that death does not deter. Most pedophiles have mental illness, rationality is not a part of their daily diet. They are serving needs that i would expect you, in the medical profession, to understand. They are sick individuals and need psychiatric help. Not death penalties. My god the striking similarity between the southpark episode and this nonsense here is startling. and dave...your unrelenting pessimism seeks to keep you in a world of pain. im sorry its so bleak for you. im sorry the cards are so stacked. in short im sorry everyone is out to get you pal.

and trace you lost me on that little rant of yours, but no matter.... who is lying now?

So, Patrick, if the media makes a big deal out of it, you decide it's all bull shit, huh? And anyone that might be affected by it an idiot, correct? Let me amend that "American Media"... You have shown yourself to be worse then a "vidiot" because you are so skeptical of everything reported by the American Mainstream Press that you refuse to believe anything. I am first to tell you not to beleive most of what you see on tv, but my conviction that the murderer of Samantha Runnion deserves to die has nothing to do with what the media reports. I am sick of you calling me a tool of the media. Fuck off, I have a mind of my own, thank you very much. I see the link above is even from the BBC. Why is that? It is reported in the US Media now that soldiers were injured durring a fight in the sand box. The US always has denied reports like that until they have all the facts to present to the affected families. We prefer we notify family before they find out about in on CNN. Our would you prefer up-close footage of the soldiers being shot, live for your entertainment?

Patrick,as usual, your response is quite entertaining. Its always good thinking to relate reality,to some fictional CARTOON characters. I think we can all see clearly at what level your mentality functions. You'll probably find this incredibally amazing, but the majority of people ACTUALLY pay attention to the milk cartons,and pictures posted at Walmart,and the little flyers that come in the mail. Unlike yourself,who is busily engrossed in cartoons. Pull yourself away from the box of Apple-Jacks and Toonality, for just a moment,if you can,[maybe wait for a commercial],and consider this: God forbid,what if it was NICO? The stark reality here,Patrick, is that there are no triangulator helmets,or silly cartoon characters, but REAL PEOPLE, grieving the loss of their child. Do we care more now,than we did 6 months ago? Hell no!We're just thankful that these heinous crimes are now getting the press coverage, so MAYBE we can find some of these children,BEFORE these sicko's kill them. Go finish watching your cartoons.

"So, Patrick, if the media makes a big deal out of it, you decide it's all bull shit, huh? And anyone that might be affected by it an idiot, correct?" spunky to answer your two questions: no. possibly. Czarina, despite what you think, i look at the photos i get in the mail too. I look, i read the info, i never know them. i move on. If it was nico, what could I possibly do about it now? If it were nico i would deal with it THEN. Should I wrangle myself up with speculation, bleed my heart now,live in fear now and pretend i actually have a say in this kind of matter? Give me a break! Thats about as pointless as thinking about plane crashes everytime you get on a plane or getting smashed to bits driving in a car everytime you go to the market. Thats what I mean about being sadistic. Christ...you people amaze me. Your missing the point of the cartoon and the humurous social statement within. that the public is a giant tool and youre being tweaked senselessly. I've seen you comment on the Simpons before so dont even act like you arent a fan of such and the social satire within. please. Be aware that it is possible to have this attitude that i posses and care appropriately for what happens to people around the world. you seem to misconstrue my attitude into one of uncaring. Which is not the case, I just measure it accordingly, media or not. rich girl or not. Missing babies have been getting press coverage since the beginning of the press czarina. Patty Hearst? The Lindburgh baby come to mind right off the bat. The Lindbergh bay was probably the biggest one of the past century? WHoooooooo nelly did the slobbering empathic, bleeding heart public have a field day with that. Did kidnappings drom dramatcally subsequently? Noooooo. The only ones that become public are usually rich white kids or the occasional middle class god-fearing family from middle america, that touches...well...middle america. If you actually think CNN coverage will prevent this from happening, you're a fool.

If anything, news coverage may increase the possibility. Many kidnappers panic when they see the media coverage of the case--murder the victim, and scram. Maybe if CNN hadn't grabbed onto the case, she would be alive today?

copy cat crimes?

Yah know what? Give Patrick a fucking break. I am arguing the old yeller thing the same way I would if we were talking about someone else who was too thoroughly broken to ever be allowed within a human community. I actually don't value the lives of children more than I value the lives of adults. I like children very much, too. But, I'm frankly creeped out by the way children are used to curtail the freedoms of adults. I am genuinely horrified that they're used to make me less free. I do think people who serially kill them are worse than people who serially kill anyone else -- but I don't know it to be true. The reason I THINK it is because there's almost 100% recidivism for people who commit offenses against children, and this is not at ALL the case with people who commit offenses against adults. And I don't have any children. And I want some, someday. And I imagine that I, too, would want to do anything to keep them safe. I wouldn't, however, require that YOU do it. I wouldn't think they were inherently more valuable, in fact, than I am myself -- I would just value them (I imagine) more. I would hope that if someone kidnapped me and raped me and murdered me and was likely to do the same to other people and had, in fact, been shown to have done the same previously so that this wasn't an isolated or contingent incident...that that person would be judged to need killing. And that people would take them time to change our system of adjudication so that the killing could take place. And leave Nico the fuck out of this. Stop telling Patrick how he needs to feel. Make an argument, but I think it should be perfectly obvious from the entirety of this thread that people of good character, intelligence, and with the best of intentions can disagree wildly about issues like this.

actually, patrick, there are plenty of things i enjoy. they're just too boring to talk about in a public forum. i'm glad for you that you're comfortable with flawed and corrupt authority. must be nice.

im not comfortable with a corrupt authority. never have, never will. flawed? maybe. but my wife is flawed and im pretty damn comfortable with her. so is my house buts its pretty cozy. this chair im in is flawed but it does ok. justice is never 100%, thats impossible. but whatever keeps you warm hoss.

"Stop telling Patrick how he needs to feel." But, that seems to be the point about this whole thread. Both sides, really. Side A: Why don't you feel outraged? Side B: Why should I feel outraged? There's very little argument here that isn't used to justify feeling, whether that feeling is anger (towards criminals) or fear. (of a totolitarian state, or of misapplied punishment) Anyway, I doubt anyone gives a shit about that, just thought I'd point it out. :)

to me it seems more a matter of allowing yourself worked up into an irrational frenzy of something neither new, nor something that will dissipate with said frenzy. im not any more or less outraged about this than anyone else. but im not ready to deem this guy any less human, call for his prompt execution and "sending my love down a well" (notes who gets that reference)

I'm not in a frenzy,just stating my opinion. Today I read in I think it was Lomas(sp?) California that a man tried to kidnap a 6 year old boy out of his BACK yard,but the neighbors caught him. The creep that killed the little girl in St. Louis,even a moron could tell you that after the dad said he was there that morning and so was his daughter,he goes to the bathroom,then their gone,the police are going to be looking for him big time,was it something he just couldn't control? These creeps can't be cured. In a perfect world I think if somebody commits a sexual offense against a minor,they should be put on some kind of island like a leper colony,with others like themselves and they can just go fuck themselves.

It seems like there should be a worse punishment than jail for these sort of crimes. I mean, why are homeless people out on the street scraping for food when a fucked up criminal gets 3 meals, TV, a bed etc. I'm sure prison isn't FUN, but compared to the poverty many people live in, life in prison seems like a reward. As for death penalty though, it seems worse to have to live the rest of your life in prison than be killed. If the idea is to give the person the worst possible punishment that is. Of course if it was my kid, sister, mother, aunt, friend, I'd certainly expect wanting to kill the person who did this to them.

the problem is that punishment is not a deterant for these kinds of crimes. that's why we need eugenics. we should breed this kind of evil out of our race. and while we're at it let's get rid of the stupid and the ugly. and the poor.

oh, nevermind. 'poor' isn't a genetic trait. scratch that one.

actually, if we figure the genetics out we could probably screen everyone for certain traits. then... mass execution!

Execute all execution advocates and executioners.

Judge, jury and sexecution. I actually don't want to tell people how to feel, usually. I try to exhort them to think differently. I'm big on people thinking.

"your pawns, tools. the media is fucking you sideways and you dont even know it." I don't need the media to tell me when to think about this problem. And I certainly don't need the media to help me feel anything about it. I'm not even thinking about Samantha Runnion right now; but my thoughts are rather narrow. Melissa Gonsule. Has anyone heard of her? If you are from Mass you might. She was kidnapped, raped, and murdered. She was a rape crisis counselor. She was my friend's roommate. I've been thinking about her lately. A week or so after she was reported missing, JFK Jr's plane went down and I watched her story kind of got thrown off to the side. Just wanted to share...it was about a week and three years ago that her body was found.

"to me it seems more a matter of allowing yourself worked up into an irrational frenzy of something neither new, nor something that will dissipate with said frenzy. " Czar, He is always telling us how we should feel. And he always points at my family to see what my reaction would be. The man does not need anyone to stick up for him

I reiterate:I am a parent. I do want everyone to be outraged by these types of atrocities. I want them to stand up and take notice,so maybe we can change the laws.Because I don't ever want something like this to happen to my children,or loved ones. Or yours,either.

change the laws? What MORE do you want czarina? you speak of this as if it needs awareness like a new disease. trace, your post makes no sense. Im not telling you how to feel. Im reacting to what you say? Comprehende?

No. I do not understand you. I doubt I ever will, or care to.

well trace, as i told dave (though in a completely different realm) whatever keeps you warm. I don't point to your family. you point to yourselves. you lay yourselves out. i respond to what you give. (btw it was margret that "stuck up" for me, not czarina.)

and it is obvious you do not understand me. I am not telling you how to feel. I am not whipped into a frenzy by the media. What I say is how I feel. Executing a child rapists-murderer is not an eye-for an eye approach. Executing a felon who has been judged by a jury of his peers to be guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt, using an injection to put him to sleep before his heart stops does not compare in anyway to raping and murdering an innocent child. To make that comparison only diminishes the magnitude of what she had to endure.

it's played out. give it a rest.

fuck off, dave..

or what?

or i'll take it back, fudgetaco.

i dare ya, turdrifle.

why don't both of you ass pirates put a stool in it?

shut it, daddy.

Ahh. All is well again. This thread has come to it's sorabjite ending.

I'm just trying to comprehend fudgetaco,turdrifle? I'm sorry guys thought you were Dale,yea..now you know how I feel.Ponder amongst your selves.So will I,for that matter,it's so deep,it's making me worried,be kind,rewind.

They're right.Its played out.Turdstools. But what about those 4 guys at Ft. Bragg who allegedly killed their wives? Thats a pretty odd coincidence. 2 would have an odd percentage, but 4? I suspect some kind of Bin Laden nerve gas was in those tunnels, and now the soldiers will come home and start self destrucing our Americans.

Stepford husbands?

I love the Stepford movies, but have yet to see "The Stepford Husbands". We have a neighbor who is from Turkey. He is a muslim, and speaks horrible english, but his wife is a good friend of mine, so I tolerated him even though he was extemely weird (I am not talking cultural differences, but just plain weirdness). I think he got ahold of some of that gas. He finally went to see a shrink two days ago and was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. Aparently they didn't think him a danger and he crashed with one of his friends that night. The next morning he woke up and took a butcher knife to his throat. He survived, has six stitches and is in the psych ward of University Hospital. He keeps going on about how Micki (my 22lb. 3 year old) is going to kill him and how the people in the downstairs apartment (who moved out after the flood because the place was damaged) are watching him all the time. He says the television talks to him and tells him that the police are going to come and take out his eyes. His wife is pregnant and so he is telling everyone he is pregnant too and the male nurse who was taking care of him is the father of his baby. Weird shit. He needs a dose of the Stepford Husband shit, whatever it is. Ginny lost her job, because she had to call in sick to take care of him and hasn't been to work since Monday.

Be careful. Their delusions are very real to them. Keep your child away from him.