I'm sorry, I could not remain silent on this issue. The one thing that I object to in your behavior, Ms. Mirajen, and would like you to think about is the fact that turning people over to the cops for drug offenses is flat - out wrong. Drug addicts are hurting no one but themselves. The system of criminalizing drug use makes drugs a source of unnecessary violence and expense. There are only three reasons to outlaw drugs: 1. An attempt to enforce Christian values on the rest of us. 2. As an excuse to persecute dissidents, minorities, and the poor. 3. In the case of hemp, because the plant itself would make many very wealthy corporate interests obsolete if used. The only argument for criminalizing drugs is that it is "for their own good" Firstly, this would better be served by treating drugs as a public health problem. Secondly, Al-Anon and related drug-treatment programs always remind friends and family of drug addicts of the three C's: You didn't Cause it You can't Cure it You can't Change it (Of course, in some cases, the US government did contribute to drug addiction, but that's another issue for another thread) Forceful intervention in drug addiction is not the job of the addict's family and friends, let alone the government. The system of making drugs illegal is totally wrong. It causes thousands of deaths and costs billions of dollars each year. It costs a hell of a lot more than treating addicts would. When you turn people in for drug posession, you are helping the U.S. government to perpetuate a wrong system. If you want a philosophical argument that makes sense to you, here is the beginning of one and where you can find more: You read LeVey, now try the real stuff; read Crowley. "The word of sin is restriction" --Liber AL I,41 There is more, but I'll let you find it for yourself at http://www.otohq.org/oto/ Please consider this with an open mind.

lucy, you seem like a very interesting woman. i'm glad you are here adding some new thought provoking discourse to this site. welcome from me.

Thank you from me. I don't think our straitedge satanist friend read it though (Does no one but me see a contradiction in that. I always thought Luciferianism was about freedom; ooh the Christians are gonna pummell me for that one)

Yes, indeed you do seem extremely interesting and you also, are obviously intelligent, which is a rare thing, these days.....Sorabji seems to be visited by a lot of females, but for the most part, the ones who just drop by, are usually young, foolish, naive, etc............nothing wrong with that, it's just not very interesting to us 'older' folks...............(i've no idea into what age category you fall, Lucy, perhaps none, maybe you are ageless.................)

What ever happened to that Venatrix? Pretty sad case; it's hard to see intelligence gone wrong and morality jettisoned. I guess aligning yourself with a "mystical" power gives you quite the boost. What's different between these kids (and non-kids) who go overboard for Jesus as opposed to the "Satanists"? Seems like the S crowd revels in digging out more and more obscure bits and pieces of lore - not at all unlike learning to program - while the J crowd goes for "it's all right there in front of you". Speaking as an ex-hippie ("always a sad sight" as one thread puts it), I'd prefer the light. And who knows how much farther along I'd be if I hadn't wasted so many hours stoned?

venatrix was lucy. hope that sort of answers your question.

Is that true? The source consistently lists different IPs for Lucy and VM. Though they were both arrogant and self-grandiose in that brittle inferiority complex way. I guess as usual I'm not up on the behind the scenes soap opera around here.

So who's this Lucy chick that everyone seems to want to keep under wraps?

i don't know, i always assumed that they were the same person. maybe i am wrong.

They are similar. But there are many people in the world like that, sadly. So they may be different people.

Aren't we lucky we're so perfect?

Perfect? Is anyone?

Lucy argues with VM above. It would have to be a rather elaborate ruse, to be changing ISPs for each post. And she didn't seem that subtle. But enough of Lucy already, as Agatha was saying. She's with the others now.

White male, age 23 FUCK YOU GUYS!

I,m all tore up asshole,hasn,t that house came down from the sky and killed him yet?

oh god........waffleboy left a long time ago.....

oats was previous to waffleboy.

Ahh yes, things are all falling back into place now. So all we need to come back is a certain mister DARR-- .... nevermind.

oh you missed a lot carrie ann. but yes, the past still exists.

Hmmm, yes, I'm beginning to see that I have...

wouldn't oatmeal boy be 24 by now?

Twelve, I think.

I'd be mildly amazed if he was still breathing.

my cat just threw up on my floor tom

ah fuck. the kitten brought a newt into the house last night. that disturbed me.

My cats are running around the house like the pair of lunatics they are. They're gay. And warm, and fuzzy. One of them just left the argument and is batting insistenantly at my toe. And they're pretty good about bringing dead animals intot he house, except for the occaisonal sacrificial sparrow under the bed. Newts are neat.

Isolde & Nate: what are yr opinions abt letting cats out vs. keeping them in? My little Six was declawed by whomever owned her previously/then abandoned by the same owner when the bitch moved. (And she didn't even spay her 1st!) So she was homeless. Apparently she cdn't hunt very well clawless/becuz she was all skin & bones when I found her. She looked to be abt 7 or 8 mos. old/certainly old enuf to hunt. But she seems to totally lack the killer instinct. Even now/if a gekko gets in the house/she won't really go after it. She'll chase it around for a while/but she never manages to catch anything. Af first/she was as indoor-outdoor cat. Then when I got her spayed/I kept her inside for a week afterwards -- which she did not like atall. But I did eventually allow her back outside. And man, is she an ornery little bitch! She had a run-in w/a big black longhair that had to be twice her size. I heard all this caterwauling & ran out to look for her & she was in front of the house/ snarling like a gator at this huge cat. Then she had the nerve to run after him! I finally managed to grab her & bring her in the house. She doesn't seem to like other cats. My neighbors (they have 2 cats) kept telling me I shdn't let her out/being clawless & all/& becuz she cd get exposed to Feline HIV or lukemia. So I relented & started keeping her indoors. But I have 3 lanais -- i.e. screened-in porches -- around my crib/so she does get to be outdoors & get fresh air. But she still goes to the front door & begs to be let out sometimes. And she will definitely make a mad dash for it if I leave the door ajar when I'm bringing in the groceries. And she's no threat to birds or squirrels/becuz she can't hunt worth a damn. (Ahto' she does engage me in a serious game of Tag every nite.) I feel bad abt not allowing her outside. I can see she misses it. But she's declawed. If a dog or a raccoon (& there are several 'coons around here) comes after her -- or that enormous owl I see sometimes at nite -- she'll be a goner for sure. If anything happened to her/I wd never forgive myself. Yet she managed to fend off whatever critters she must have encountered when she was homeless. And the development I live in is quiet -- I'm far from the main road & there isn't much traffic. And everyone w/a dog always keeps them leashed when they take them out. So what say you two? She's been an indoor cat for a while now. Shd I continue to keep her in/or start letting her out again?

I let my cat and he,s declawed outside,but there doesn,t seem to be any other cats around out to get him,and he managed to kill a bird and bring it right to my bedroom,and dropped it,s dead body by the bed a couple of months ago.So glad I didn,t have to dispose of it.

i keep my declawed nica inside (similar story, i sure as hell didn't rip the ends of her fingers off.) the kitten prose goes outside. nica doesn't seem to mind being inside all the time, prose gets a little too active if you keep him cooped up. i don't let prose out as much here at the new house, because of where i live. i don't want a bobcat to eat him or anything like that. or the neighbors pit bull. or the river.

I just clip my cat's nails when they get too long. I think declawing a cat is insane. It's not like cropping a dog's tail or something, you're taking away part of what makes them a cat. Also, she never goes outside -- she's a katzehausfrau. She's a 20 pounder, so if she did go outside, it would have to be a an uber-owl to carry her away.

I am not worried about my 35 lber when I move to a place with wildlife. The coyotes would have to be on crack (in addition to being hugely fat he is also lightning quick and has claws like razors). The other one is little and wussy and if she did go outside of her own volition she could be picked up and eaten by an aggressive sparrow.

You've got a 35 pound cat, Margret??? Damn, I thought mine was big. What is he, half bobcat or something?

just...an otherwise big orange cat, who is also fat. He's actually dropped weight. We think he's in the high 20s now. 35 was his heyday. He has a relatively small head, too, so he looks ridiculous. He is named Juices.

nica is 20lbs now. she eats the kitten food.

My cat is bulimic.

Yeah, my cat is too. The ONLY kind of meat she doesn't like is liver, and she about claws my legs off when I open a can of tuna. Her favorite though is NutriGrain bars and fig newtons.

OH MY GOD! My fat orange cat eats fig newtons and I thought he must be the only cat in the world with that particular palate! FREAKY!

My cat is afraid of her own shadow. I never let her out without supervision. She's declawed, I had it done because the alternative was having to get rid of her (she was clawing up my roommates furniture). She's quite small, I would be suprised if she was more than 10 pounds. I wish I had a porch or something she could hang out on, but I don't. the next place I ive, hopefully it will have something like that. I've held off on getting another cat because I know how traumatic that would be for her. Although she got on just fine with my best friend's cat (she freaked when the other cat had kittens tho - that was pretty funny). Another reason I don't let cats out is to keep them from getting run over or eaten, plus there's the issue of domestic cats being a major factor in the dropoff of migratory songbird populations.

Neither of mine are declawed--their indoor outdoor, although I prefer to have them in at night. If one/both fo them were declawed for some reason, I would keep it indoors. Sometimes I clip nails too, since Silver Shadow has a funky nail that gets all ingrown. Wierd. I don't really object to a slight loss of wildlife--shit happens. And they get things like mice and gophers mostly anyway...Silver Bell is actually afraid of birds. He runs and hides if one flies by. Nut.

yeah, but we're not talking "slight" - we're talking a nosedive. I may try to track down the article I read later - I'm sure there's something at the Audubon website. Speaking of birds, i found out today why there are so many blue jays around the fort in the fall - they come en mass and take out the gypsy moth larva. It's amazing here, all you see in the fall are blue jays, you'll see like 50 a day.

Your cats must get busy. There are many birds in the world. And I'm a cruel, callous person. And I hate the little buggers. Fing things wake me up at nreasonable hours. *glowers*

Jeez, MY cat won't even eat bugs anymore, much less birds! What a slacker! When i first acquired her companionship (I may have actually catnapped her, but I am not certain), she ate all the bugs in my seedy apt.

A 20lb. cat? A 35 lb. cat!? Six weighs 14 lbs. And the vet tech she saw last implied that she was fat. But I don't think so. And she's certainly not sluggish. Are these Main Coons or Persians or some breed that grows very large? What do you feed them to get them so big?

I'm w/Isolde on the bird thing. If it files & it ain't big enuf to fend off a cat/it'll have to take it's chances. Plus I found out that that annoying-ass bird that starts singing at the top of it's lungs at 4:30 a.m. isn't wild -- it lives in a cage on a neighbor's lanai. I wish I had a b-b gun... Actually/it's been cold here lately & I think they must have bought it in the house/becuz I haven't heard it all week. [Notices Sem sulking in the corner w/his Audubon book in his lap.] We appreciate you standing up for the migratory songbirds & all, Sem. But "Kill or Be Killed" is nature's way. Domestic felines shdn't get a bad rap for doing what comes naturally. Nobody bitches when they catch mice & rats & yucky vermin.

I have three cats. they all have their claws. Gee is a badass. She'll kick anyone's butt. Sometimes she goes and cuddles up to her son and starts licking him and being nice to him and when he gets all comfy she just starts smacking at him. That's just evil. My baby. She's good, though. If one of her brood is getting beaten outside, she'll run out and take care of them. Neelix (Gee's son) is pretty bad himself. He likes to bring mice home. Sometimes they're alive, though. He's small for his age, which I like, cuz it's like having a kitten forever. He sneers a lot. BummBumm (Neelix's father) used to be hot stuff, but when he got nuetered it was like he became a different cat. Ever since he fell into that pot of tomato soup he's been really wimpy. He never NEVER leaves the kitchen. Hardly ever. I saw him in the upstairs hall today and as soon as he saw me he ran for the kitchen. I'm done.

ROFL! Howinthehell did yr cat fall into a pot of tomato soup? And how did you get it out of his fur? I know some cats will tolerate a but/but not mine!

That was "tolerate a bath" BTW. Sorry.

Some will also tolerate a butt. Although not many.

I'm not sulking( haven't gotten around to getting the stats oncats), but it is sad that people are so blase about mass extinctions.

C'mon, Sem -- you can't hate us for favoring cats over birds. Nate even has a bird/so he's doing his part to protect yr feathered friends. And even w/a bird/Nate's still a Cat Person. Cats are so much cooler & friendlier & more entertaining than birds. A bird can't lick yr toes/or swish his tail across yr face becuz he's so happy yr brushing him/or cuddle up all warm & furry next to you on the pilow. A bird will shit all over yr pillow! And there are far too many birds out there for any single species to end up killed off by cats! And if cats are such a threat to the bird population/how come every major city in the western world is infested w/nasty-ass pigeons?

birds aren't here for us, they are here for themselves. which is how it should be. not all animals can be judged by the role they play in our lives. people are so self centered. jeez.

I have three birds and two cats. The number is higher on the, um, prey end, clearly. I love them all. But, it's true, my cats rarely shit on my head. Granted, I probably shouldn't take birds out when I'm dressed to go to the opening night of a show and I'm all pretty looking...but still...*seethes*

Ok, here's stats on cats and birds (as you can see, it adds up): Cat Predation Americans keep an estimated 60 million cats as pets. Let's say each cat kills only one bird a year. That would mean that cats kill over 60 million birds (minimum) each year - more wildlife than any oil spill. Scientific studies actually show that each year, cats kill hundreds of millions of migratory songbirds. In 1990, researchers estimated that "outdoor" house cats and feral cats were responsible for killing nearly 78 million small mammals and birds annually in the United Kingdom. University of Wisconsin ornithologist, Dr. Santley Temple estimates that 20-150 million songbirds are killed each year by rural cats in Wisconsin alone. Feline predation is not "natural." Cats were domesticated by the ancient Egyptians and taken throughout the world by the Romans. Cats were brought to North America in the 1800's to control rats. The "tabby" that sits curled up on your couch is not a natural predator and has never been in the natural food chain in the Western Hemisphere. Cats are a serious threat to fledglings, birds roosting at night and birds on a nest. Research shows that de-clawing cats and bell collars do not prevent them from killing birds and other small animals. For healthy cats and wild birds, cats should not be allowed to roam free. Work with your local humane society, veterinarians and state wildlife agency to enact and enforce free-roaming cat regulations. For more information: Free Roaming Cats. American Backyard Bird Society, PO Box 10046, Rockville, MD 20849. Cats: A Heavy Toll on Songbirds. by Rich Stallcup. Point Reyes Bird Observatory, 4990 Shoreline Hwy., Stinson Beach, CA 94924. Is there a Killer in Your House? by George Harrison, National Wildlife Magazine (October/November 1992). Beware of Well-Fed Felines. by Peter Churcher and John Lawton, Natural History Magazine (July 1989).

I forgot to add that Habitat loss is the biggest threat, but add free-roaming cats on top of that, and itdoesn't get any better. Apparently, some birds are also declining because traffic and other noise from human activity has confued them and thrown their songs off-key, so to speak, and teh males are no longer as effective in attracting mates.

We used to have a cat named Gills and she used to kill birds quite often. I'm sorry. As for BummBumm: he likes to sleep on top of the refrigerator where his food is, and the fridge is right next to the stove. There was a Big pot of tomato soup sitting on the stove for some reason or other and Bummie went to jump on the fridge one day and slipped and fell into the pot knocking it over and spilling soup Everywhere. Luckily the soup wasn't hot anymore, so he didn't get burnt. I tried to give him a bath but he wouldn't have it. This is the same cat who is terrified of the litter box. Finally I just wiped him off with a towel as best I could and let him clean himself off. It took a while. He used to be a really neat cat before that, but ever since he's just a big slob.

I appreciate the statistics. It's just difficult for me to decide to keep my cat indoors on behalf of the bird population. I think if they were killing endangered species, I would have a problem. Starlings. Starlings. Starlings.

Well, yes, they are. I have no problem with them killing starlings or house sparrows, but Kirtland's Warbler? Gee, are you like a serious night owl? I notice a lot of your posts are really early in the morning, even counting the fact that your're probably in the Central time zone.

Hmm...I give in, sort of. I know that cats aren't natural, and that they kill many of my fine avian friends. But then again. I kill my fine avian friends too. Although generally not the endangered ones. I actually frown on my cats killing birds, since I do kind of like the little buggers. They maybe bag one or two a year. But gophers are another matter altogether.

Eastern time zone, Semillama. And yes, late is good. Late is great. I love being awake when it's really late, unfortunatly I'm too lame to actually do anything interesting. I just like the quietness of nighttime. Tonight I will make an effort to go to bed at a normal time (11pm?), even though I know I'll just be lying there thinking about stuff for a couple hours. I'll make my best effort.

"Is There a Killer in Your House", was that article by George Harrison, the ex-Beatle? I don't remember any bird/cat songs by them. I breed mutant cats,with little bitty short legs, [Munchkins],I thought they would have a hard time getting to my birds,but they just find something to jump on to get them closer to the bird cages. But most of my cats are afraid of my birds,cause the birds are bigger than them.

i love bathing my pussies, i usually get naked and get in with them, simply becasue my clothes will be sopping wet anyway, plus, I can close the glass shower door and keep them from bolting out and wash them easier.......they fight it at first but usually revert to a frozen-like stance, stiffening every muscle.........my cats also have their claws and we too just clip them from time to time.... due to the traffic in our neighborhood, we are protective and keep them indoors, although they love to sun on our balcony.....we make sure and play with them daily so they can get some exercise. I think my cats are extremely happy and they are well fed (no people food either) and loved dearly. .....my cats also pet me as well.......

You breed Munchkins? How do they look like when they move? I've never seen them outside of photographs. I can't decide if I might wnat one or not.

Who cares about the munchkins - I can't believe a grown man would get compleatly naked in a tub of water with cats! Aren't you kind of tempting fate, there?

I remember trying to bathe my cats when I was younger and more foolish. I discovered they _really_ didn't like the idea. I ended up working for a vet for part of a summer in my freshman year, I think--then I learned how to do it right. We still had to wear smocks, though.

tempting fate? no dear.......efficacy...... it's simple wrestling the feline into the tub (claws intact mind you)...splashing occurs. Leaning over to wash said kitty........drying a wet cat is the most fun.....right?.....wet sopping fur....nevermind the clothes, the hair..form a wet cat..i would take a shower afterwords regardless.... Might as well save step, spare your clothes. I bath, she drys......when the meow meows are done, we shower, no hair, no wet cords....

I think Gee was thinking safety here, not cleanliness, which was also the first thing that sprang to my mind. I'd be leary of putting the delicate bits anywhere near a wet, unhappy feline of any variety.

oh i see. yes yes, you have a concern, but my tub has a ledge inside that will allow me to sit and keep the kitty away from my bits.....

to hell with the kitty. you ever read mean magazine? i guess it's based out in la-la land. what do you know about it?

no and not a damn thing. a few my office who happened to be close by said they have never heard of it either. It must be rather new. I do know that their offices are a block from my house.... hmmmmmmm

so how many ducats would it take to get you to break into their office some night and jack all their fela media? theoretically speaking, of course.

a hypothetical million...thank you that and an explanation of "fela media" a rock through the window? 1k