The rage in my eyes Could have compared to the eye of a sun Then rain Took it's course through the hands of the Son Repent for all time The world is at war leaving all fault behind So Is this the end for us my friend? So Is this the end for us my friend? The stains in the sky Are there to remind us of man and his fight When two worlds collide One steals the life like a theif in the night So look to the sky He hold the keys for your life and mine So Is this the end for us my friend? So Is this the end for us my friend? So Is this the end for us my friend? Well as though we rise As the day breaks the dawn And as the moon hides the sun Oh, the sun No more sorrow All those crying days are gone No more sorrow, now it's gone Now it's gone Now it's gone So Is this the end for us my friend? So Is this the end for us my friend? So Is this the end for us my friend? So Is this the end for us my friend?

Is Creed that band that sounds like wannabe Pearl Jam?

i think so...even with a "cute" doofus long-hair lead singer worthy of Fabio-esq cultdom.

I found a tape when I was moving which was a promotional tape put out by Coca-Cola about 10 years ago, with "new" bands. It had Pearl Jam's "Alive" on it. I didn't recognize any other names except for Son Volt.

Creed and Three Doors Down are some of my favorite bands. Creed tries to potray itself as a Christian Band, and there stuff is not really too bad. Higher With Arms Wide Open My Sacrifice One Last Breath

Most of their stuff is available to listen to online

I like Creed too,my spawn says they are lame because they are Christian so that just made me like them all the more.

The best Christian band EVER is 16 Horsepower. I DEFY anyone to challenge their excellence. They don't play "Christian rock," either. They play music like you'd expect to hear in an ghost mining town in the Rockies. Kinda bluegrassy. Often spooky. In person, they are positively awe-inspiring -- a few years ago, I saw them two nights in a row, first in NYC and then in DC....they're that good. This is a great site for all info. This page has their lyrics and sound clips (some recorded live) to all of their songs. My favorite album is "Low Estate," so go there first if you're curious.

16 horsepower much too warbly for me. goth chick.

hmmm. i listened to the amazon clips. bleh. i wanna smack the vocalist. any self-proclaimed "christian" band is immediately rubbed off my list for being pious enough to make such a claim regardless of the suck factor.

So, if they cannot claim themselves to be Christian, whom should proclaim them as such? You?

first, i didnt say no one can claim it. my beef at all is why claim it to begin with? religion is personal.

Do not talk smack about David Eugene Edwards, or I will clock your ass. Anyway, he's the grandson of a travelling minister, so singing about the good Lord is in his blood.

PS. He does not play to claim "Christian" music...in fact, this is what he says (from the linked site): How would you describe 16 Horsepower's sound? David: "We don't describe it. You just listen to it, and if it's music that you like, then you keep listening to it. If it's music you don't like, then don't listen to it." -- Phantom Tollbooth Interview, February 1998 David: "I’d describe our music as 'traditional and modern'. It is country insofar as it is rooted in American, Hungarian, French traditions, etc. At the same time, it is influenced by folk, in the traditional meaning of the word. On the other hand, some songs, based on guitars, sound rather modern. And we play traditional instruments in a modern way." -- Radio 21/Music 365 Interview, May 2000

Um...I mean "claim to play." That was weird.

"religion is personal." Are you suggesting that religion has no place in art? Disclaimer: The above statement is not intended to be understood to support the notion that Creed is art. Ick.

My question is why the hell not? What is the difference between that and a band calling themselves a Jazz or Blues band???

Well, "Jazz" actually tells you what the music sounds like. What does "Christian" sound like? I called 16 HP Christian up there, because they *are* Christian. And then I described the sound.

But "Blues" also gives an indication of what it's about. If we didn't have have religion in music we wouldn't have Bach's St. Matthew's Passion, or any Gospel music. I'm not Christian, but damn if that music doesn't get me through some rough times.

"Disclaimer: The above statement is not intended to be understood to support the notion that Creed is art. Ick." That is your opinion, and you are definately entitled to it, because that is precisely what art is about. There is no right or wrong. It's all in the eye of the creator and the beholder. I think Art Critics suck, and are not necessary to enhance anyone's enjoyment of art. Just like I can't stand to hear anyone talk about "She has no taste". No, actually, she does not have the same taste as you, but that does not mean that she is without a taste of her own... I also think there should not be any grades ever given in an "Art Class" unless the grades are based on academic knowledge (Who painted what and when, definitions, etc).

not at all kazoo. spirituality and art have a loving relationship. I just don't see a need to claim yourself a "christian" or "muslim", "hindu", "mormon" or whatever band. moral or spiritual matters should not necessarily be the basis for a classification. Like "blues", "gospel" is an indicator of the style of music. there is a distinct sound with "gospel". "What is the difference between that and a band calling themselves a Jazz or Blues band???" you're exhausting spunk

Creed is a Christian rock band? Wasn't there a heavy mental Christian rock band called Stryper or Stryker or something like that, they had costumes that had yellow & black stripes, like bees?

I don't think art critics suck. Most of them do, but not all of them. Lester Bangs for example, I do not agree with everything he wrote, but exemplified what I think music criticism should be about. It's not just saying good/bad, worthy/worthless, but placing it within a certain context, which can enhance enjoyment. I would not have enjoyed women's Blues music if I hadn't read Angela Davis' book on it. And I do think that you can be graded/judged on how well you have learned and are able to apply the artistic techniques. I hate this idea of eliminating "standards" so that everything counts as "good" just because one person likes it.

Kazoo, thank you. Your prospective has made total sense to me. Patrick, get off my case. Your need to refute everything I dare say gets old fast.

Actually, Dougie, yes. Stryper and also the Rez Band. Of course, I think Rez Band was either thrash or grunge as opposed to metal..... There is an entire industry dedicated to Christian Music. It is a qualified category. Take Michael W Smith or Amy Grant for example.

"moral or spiritual matters should not necessarily be the basis for a classification." It's about marketing. I mean, it's just another way of distinguishing yourself. You play rock music. You sing about Christian values. You are a Christian Rock bands, thus those who like Christian rock will see your name under Christian Rock on Amazon.com and may listen on the basis of that. You've tapped another market.

"I hate this idea of eliminating "standards" so that everything counts as "good" just because one person likes it." sweetfuckinjesusthankyou

I never advocated the elimination of standards. In arts, yes. I do not like the idea of flunking an eight year old in art class because they cannot color in the lines.... Of course, I am biased because I always SUCKED in art. Now, if there was a test given on the primary colors and mixing colors, or definitions of techniques and demonstrated ability to apply the techniques, that is entirely different.

OK, here's a question for debate: how does each of us (for ourselves) determine what is good? Me, I look first for creativity/innovation. Is this person/band doing something that no one has done before? Are they bringing something new to a familiar sound? Are they saying something new? Are their lyrics/musical structure/choice of instruments creative? Second, can they play their instruments well? A good drummer will save a band for me. A great drummer will make me love a band (e.g., Danny Carey and Tool). If you can't play well, you'd better be excelling on the creativity end. This is why I don't like the Strokes. What the hell are they doing that hasn't been done before and better? And I'm sure they think that shitty production value makes their music edgy, but they need to be disabused of that notion tout de suite.

I wasn't talking about eight year olds. I was talking more about when you actually choose to study art. You kind of have to understand how to color in the lines, before coloring outside of the lines can mean anything. I'm not sure that made any sense...but if it did, I don't mean it to be an absolute either.

art in school, such as elementary and middle school is a subject like any others. it has standards and you will be graded based on your comphrension and execution of the standards. I always did well in art class but made horrible artwork. I've come against this issue ever increasingly, especially with the net and digital photography and overly defensive and insecure people who like to resort to saying "who are you to judge what is and what isnt art". SMACK!

Maybe they are not overly defensive or insecure, maybe they just think you are full of crap????

Building on patrick's statement: And that doesn't mean that you can't break down conventional standards and broaden them. But eliminating everything in favor of some kind of hyper-postmodern fluidity crap is too easy. Think! If you want to challenge the status quo, think of something that actually challenges it...don't just put dogshit on a pedastal. [it's one of those days]

it made sense kazoo. i was talking to a person earlier today about negative space in a photograph. while it can be a fantastic aesthetic and just as important as the main subject...you sorta have to treat the negative space like the subject itself. You can't just insert and expect it to be effective. There's inserting negative space, and theres using negative space. wait, am i making sense. what a conversation. last night spider, i had nearly the very same conversation with this cat outside the bar smoking. there was a band playing and they had resported to the ole "wall o noise" which we were agreeing wasnt doing it for us. i was essentially making your point regarding shitty production and the use of the "wall of noise" sound. I tend to judge a band based on control and measurement, in particular to drumming. Its too easy to raise the decible levels, thereby covering up your skill. Thats why jazz drummers, to me, are some of the most prolific badass mothers on the earth. Control, measure and precision are a must in their realm. rhythm absolutely makes or breaks a group because its such a base concept. its the first thing you notice.

"Maybe they are not overly defensive or insecure, maybe they just think you are full of crap????" oooookay tough guy.

By the way, I like your reasoning Spider. I really do. I like the Strokes, at least, I liked when they came on in OSU's gym better than the other crap they play. (Back to the context thing.) I wouldn't buy their album. But I totally agree with you. I tend to be pretty anal about music, but I think there is room for ear candy. But what really gets me down is that there are a lot of really incredible musicians who cannot make a living doing what they do, while others (who are not entirely talentless, even if some are) can make a whole poopload of dough for themselves and for some business executive.

"rhythm absolutely makes or breaks a group because its such a base concept. its the first thing you notice." it's such a bass concept...Patrick, you've got to send me a list of albums I should own. No rush, since I have 17 new ones. And no Rush, since I've heard them before. Bring on the rhythm so I say. I own a bass. I wish I could play it.

Im sure you know/have alot of my favorite 'rhythmic' bands/albums but suggest the essentials: -ANY Duke Ellington and Count Basie...and I mean ANY. and any Black Sabbath. (Ozzy of course) Say has anyone picked up the recently released "Early Live Recordings" of Sabbath? (did i ask this last week?) I heard it the other day and holynejesus does it rock your socks off!

Rush, to me, is the (what's the word I want? paragon?) of a band that's all technique and no soul. They are an anomaly in my schema, in that they're good musicians and they're probably creative, but I just can't stand them.

Woo-hoo The Count! I have lots of count basie. I'm listening to Tool right now. Spunkem tell me what you think of this as art criticsm, not really what he says but how and why he says it.

Spider, they also have NO stage presence which for me really makes a live show. David Gilmour and the rest of Pink Floyd didn't either...but they had lasers. Peter Murphy, now he had me mesmerized

Oh, yeah! That's important. (....16 HP has lots of stage presence...) Dave, don't read this: I'd love to see Peter Murphy live. When did you see him, Kazoo?

I could not get to the link, kaz

Delete the period off the end of the URL and it should work.

Nevermind, i figured it out...

16 horsepower is the gun club post-castration. for me, it's all in the delivery. often, i can't even explain why i like something and i don't really care to because it's so often contradictory. so i guess there's some other qualities in the equation. it has to be technically perfect (sloppiness can be technically perfect, in my opinion), emotionally sincere (insincerity can be sincere), and inspired by something other than "i'm in a band so i can get laid" (i.e. pop music). when i'm old and in the advanced stages of alzheimer's, i'm pretty confident my last memory will be a random mark e. smith lyric. that said, lyrics are secondary to the delivery. it don't matter what they say or think. look at chan chan by the buena vista social club. simple tune and stupid lyrics in a language i don't speak -- beautifully delivered.

I saw Bauhaus a few summers ago...it must have been 1998. It was great to see all these "aging" Goths with kids and clothes that hadn't been worn in ten years and several office-jobs ago. For as much as they love this man, I don't understand why they don't dance like him. While, he was all over the stage, they just looked like they were writhing in pain.

what dave. said, especially the part about contradiction. my favorite love song nearly brought me to tears the first time I heard it, and I can't understand it because I don't speak the language. But I knew it was a love song. I just knew it.

Riddim....The best most rythem filled bands for me include Helmet, TOOL, Bob Marley and the Wailers, Red Hot Chilis and Janes Addiction. Being a bass player myself, I'm drawn to that bottom end sound. I've heard that new old Black Sabbath stuff as well. Of course its great. By the way....Creed? Please. Remember when Stone Temple Pilots were Pearl jam rip-offs? And they were kind of cool. That pompous, windbag, marbles (or is that balls) in his mouth Scott Stapp. Christ, I've got more artistic intergity in my nutsack. By the way, I was also listening to TOOL today, "Laterulus", amazing fucking record. It gives me chills. Hey, Kazoo, Sem is a great bass teacher, he taught me a lot of what I know how to do. Plus he'll kiss you after, which I didn't get. I just got heckled if I sucked.

" a matter of fact, there's a whole lot of Astral Weeks I don't even want to tell you about. Both because whether you've heard it or not it wouldn't be fair for me to impose my interpretation of such lapidarily subjective imagery on you, and because in many cases I don't really know what he's talking about. he doesn't either: "I'm not surprised that people get different meanings out of my songs," he told a Rolling Stone interviewer. "But I don't wanna give the impression that I know what everything means 'cause I don't. . . . There are times when I'm mystified. I look at some of the stuff that comes out, y'know. And like, there it is and it feels right, but I can't say for sure what it means." I like how he says it. He is not imposing his views on the reader, but rather sharing them.

16 horsepower lyrics make me think of nick cave, a lot of the time. now, there's a man that's obsessed with religion.

Is this Art???

this is art. and so is this married to christ

that last one reminds me of the exorcist

me too.

she got a purty face.

nate. yahooooo or aim?

or shit slurpee?

http://web.njit.edu/~rar4/India.html

is that renee zelwiger?

I don't think so.

thank you, j.

heh heh I thought you'd like it:)

And U2 is considered a Christian band.

Creed kick ass live. They sound better live than on cd. I like bands that can do that.

You want to talk stage presence, no one has better stage presence thatn Mojo Nixon. Nobody. One man, one guitar, several drinks. One club full of drunks singing "Tie My Pecker to My Leg" at the top of their lungs. Mojo said on Friday that he thought the Washington sniper was just someone who heard one too many Creed songs on the radio and snapped. True. Speaking of crushing new bands, which we weren't, anyone heard the new Audioslave (Chris Cornell w/ Ex-rage against the machine)? Fantastic. Makes Creed sound REALLY WATERED DOWN, even more so than usual.

I've heard their single, "Cochise." I concur.

Is he coming to New Zealand anytime soon?

I just heard that band Cracker do the Kinks' Victoria on Conan O'Brien really really badly. Then I watched Taxi -- the one where Latka and Simka get married. Taxi was such a great show. Oh, and congrats to the Giants. Any of you Seattlers been to the new stadium yet? The endzone stands look really weird, but kind of cool.

speaking of new, crushing bands, which we might be, anyone heard isis? puts the heavy metal back in heavy metal. reminds me of botch. if i were 10 years younger, i'd be all over it. but, i'm not 10 years younger, am i? my latest discovery/recommendation: ms. john soda. somewhere in the neighborhood of stereolab but not trying to resurrect any particular decade. i've been generally moving away from vocals but the way the woman enunciates, the german inflection given to certain consonants combined with a smooth voice, sounds so sensual. very nice. i don't even care what she's actually saying, as long she doesn't stop. i've long criticized women "rock" bands as derivative hacks -- penis envy at best, painful parody at worst. i don't like it the way i don't like b movies. there is no fucking way i'd like this stuff if a guy were singing. to me, this is where women excel. sheryl crow, courtney love, sleater-kinney -- yuck. hollering and shrieking may be empowering to some but not to me. i think i may have just stirred up a hornet's nest.

Here's the first sting. So I guess that you'r saying that in music there are some emotions that women aren't allowed to access. No women are allowed to sing about pain, hurt, anger? Funny that they suffer it in spades. What are they supposed to do about it? So lady singers should either be dainty or at the very least non-threatning to you and your nice little cocoon? Obvious that you don't get it. By the way the Distillers rule, and the lead singer is so friggin hot. You'r for me Punk rock girl.

Im with you dave. Patti Smith is about the threshold for me personally and i love her first for her amazing poetry and the rockin backing band. Even some Kim Gordon tunes turn me off. have you listend to Hope Sandoval and The Warm Inventions? She melts me. Havent heard John Soda but sounds nice. You know who drives me fucking nuts with annoying enunciation, someone who is pretty popular with the more confused than ever punky, feminist scensters? Peaches. I get red thinking about it. cranky old men.

he's not saying that at all skooter

actually, i am saying that. women should be pretty and nice. if they're angry, i'll build them a menstrual lodge and they can go be pissed off in there.

Uh Oh

Nah. What about PJ Harvey, dave?

It's not worth the energy. I've been having these arguments my entire life.

He's just being cranky. At any rate, I agree that shrieking != empowerment. But goddamn, I loves me some PJ H.

I'm being cranky too...it's been one of those weeks. I wish I didn't have to leave the menses hut for class tomorrow. I loves me some PJ Harvey. Have you seen Hal Hartley's The Book of Life?

damn dave, i was giving you the benefit of the doubt aesthetically speaking. you arent dictating content as much as you are delivery and skooter was interpreting you were dictating content. or so i thought.

Kazoo, I haven't seen The Meaning of Life -- does she play Mary Magdelene in it?

Oops, I mean the Book of Life. Well, I haven't seen the Meaning of Life either...

yes, that's the one. Not his best, but I liked it anyway.

listening to the sample mp3 at Darla records...Ms John Soda does sound like Laetitia Sadier. I dig it.

im actually rediscovering what a keen little label Darla is. dave have you ever heard Ludus? They have a couple mp3's im really diggin. Sad i hadnt heard them sooner. There's also a lovely tune by "mus" that I found here as well.

i've been having that argument with dave my entire life, or so it seems. he doesn't like books by women, either. he's a contradiction in terms, that dave.

i was just kidding about the unkiddable. sad that nobody took the bait. waah. truly though, with few exceptions, women can't rock like the guys who rock like i like it can. there is nothing even approaching a female nomeansno or kyuss or melvins or minutemen. women don't do that and that's the stuff i like. women do other kinds of stuff way better than men. i just don't like that stuff as much, but i'm starting to like some more of it, it seems. not a big fan of pj harvey so far but i am a big fan of carla bozulich. what's she up to these days? i'm embarrassed to admit it but i also like pink. there's no logic to it. i just ordered a couple things from darla last week. i haven't heard those but i'll check 'em out.

oh.

Dave...Ever heard of Kitty? How about Crisis? Man, get a fucking clue. How about Lick, Meg Le Chin, Ruby?

i liked kitty for about 12 minutes until i realized it was just nu-metal and studio wizardry. live, they're rather unimpressive. i do think it's funny that guys throw their underwear on stage when they play.

what's your beef? are you a cop for the well rounded musical tastes enforcement division? most music sucks. deal with it.

carla's voice gets under my skin. shes the gal from geraldine fibbers right? they were great live because nels' guitar drowned her out, as i recall. otherwise she was the main reason i never raced after any cd of theirs. I find my self wanting to smash things when I see or hear Pink. Almost as much as when I see or hear Peaches. Annoyance factor is roughly the same.

My beef is when people on here present ideas that are sexist, or jus plain ignorant. Imagine if I posted something like I like rock music, just not if it's sung by blacks. You'd be buggin. To exclude half our species, beacuse you don't think they rock, is just stupid. Can I get a Kazoo, or a Sem to witness to the brother. The Karma Police are coming.

well, deal with it. that is what America is about. Freedom to have an opinion different then yours.

so is it ok to dislike oompah music by fat, white men in lederhosen? whatever. i'm not saying i dislike women, just the way they rock.

stevie nicks rocks. so does alanis. and so does annie lenox

Stevie Nicks rocks, but in her own quiet way. No shrieking involved.

The point is not whether or not people like the work that women do, it's that when women venture into the men's world, they are judged as women first and not as artists, intellectuals, or whatever. I've heard it all before. If people don't think women should rock because it's not what they suffer penis envy...fine, women are going to do it anyway because they want to and because some of them are good at it. Just add it to the list: I like women, but not the way they write books I like women, but not the way they study medicine I like women, but not the way they study law I like women, but not the way they hold political office I like women, but not the way they run companies I like women, but not the way they teach college I like women, but not the way they direct movies I like women, but blah blah blah blah

oh c'mon you know there is no female equivolent to Lemmy. i think we should get dave a round trip ticket to the Michgan Womens Music Festival. That'll learn em.

or to a nashville pussy show with this phrase pinned to his shirt "i'm not saying i dislike women, just the way they rock."

A female Lemmy...never...even I'll buy that. and don't get me started on the women's music festival...bio-essentialist fuckers

heh we published a book on womens music fests. You should have seen the submitted pictures. Im pretty sure dave's head would explode. what a larf.

Skunk Anansie rocks L7 rocks The Slits rock I don't know about Ruby, but pre-ruby Leslie Rankin ROCKED BALLS. Listen to Silverfish for example. SLYMENTSTRA HYMEN ROCKS. The guitarist from the Cramps rocks. Kirsty MacColl rocked from now and then, before she got run over by a speedboat Tina Turner rocks Kim Deal rocks and so on and so on

I've seen pictures. My roommate from last year went. too many boobs...even for me

i think a female lemmy would be way easier to pull off than, say, a female les claypool or rob and john wright or any number of musicians who play aggressive, innovative, highly technical, and polished music all at the same time. they can be aggressive but there's no finesse. they can have finesse but there's no aggression, innovation but no polish, polished but simple. they can hammer out 1, 4, 5 barre chords but i like something in addition to hammered out barre chords that very rarely comes from women musicians. victim's family, my name, critters buggin, slayer, sepultura, pigment vehicle. fuck, even the violent femmes first album. women don't do shit like that. to suggest that my tastes are somehow screwed up because they happen to exclude a lot of what you like and because they don't respect values you think are important is ironically shallow and intolerant. go ahead and disagree with my tastes and my opinions and observations, but for you to equate those attributes with an ignorant, narrow mind speaks more accurately about your own mental limitations than it does mine.

It's not about your taste or your observations; you prove that women as a group haven't accomplished certain things. But this implies that you don't think that it's even possible: "i think a female lemmy would be way easier to pull off than, say, a female les claypool or rob and john wright or any number of musicians who play aggressive, innovative, highly technical, and polished music all at the same time" That is what bothers me.

nope. i didn't say they can't. i said they don't. why don't they? a lot of people can't stand the shit i like. it's not that i think it's better, it's just better to me. until 3 women can record live in the studio an album comparable to nomeansno's 'wrong', with all the characteristics that make that album so amazing, (including innovation, so don't just re-write the same damn album), my opinion on this topic will not change very much.

"they can have finesse but there's no aggression" Yuh-huh. PJ Harvey is pretty fucking ferocious on "To Bring You My Love." She roars. And what I love the most about that album is that she doesn't do a single thing to sell herself or pander to the males in the audience. I can't stand it when I read a description of a character or a real woman and I see "smart but sexy" or "strong but sexy" or "[great quality] but sexy." It's not good enough to be smart or strong; you have to make men hard too. Fuck that. Aw, man, but I just remembered PJ's latest album. Shite. No more rock there.

there are tons of women who can belt out a song, but there don't seem to be any who can do it while executing difficult, arpeggiatic, start-stop, time-signature-changing bass runs. i don't want them to do it to prove something to the men. do it because it couldn't be done any other way. i don't want them to try and be like something, i want them to be themselves and have that manifest as something impressive to me. that's all i expect from any band i like, regardless of gender. why should that matter to anyone but myself and perhaps the band in question? c'mon, you all know exactly what i'm saying. drop the faux-outrage.

No outrage here. I'm just trying to find counter-examples to your argument. To be honest, the only women I can think of who are excellent ("She must have an invisible third arm or something!") musicians are classical musicians. They do exist -- they just don't play rock. So...maybe they don't because they don't like rock OR they think classical music is more serious OR they think they'll get more respect as a classical musician OR their music teachers wouldn't let them learn music other than classical for fear it would pollute their talent (it happens) OR ...

"but there don't seem to be any who can do it while executing difficult, arpeggiatic, start-stop, time-signature-changing bass runs." what about geddy lee? she's one hot mamma.

I think dave. nailed it, "a lot of people can't stand the shit i like." so, it's not like a ton of people are listening to that stuff to begin with. to be a woman on top of that makes it difficult to get anywhere. unfortunately, you still have to depend on people to "get heard." It's not a matter of the big music man keeping women down...there's no market. Even outside of the mainstream, it's difficult to get resources you need if you are a woman. and those places that cater to women, do not embrace that sound. they just don't. as I said, there is no market...part of the problem is that women don't listen to that stuff. I don't listen to a lot of women myself...mostly dead white guys actually. I can't stand Courtney Love. In college, I would be listening to Primus and women in my classes would suggest that I listen to Hole if I liked "harder" stuff, that way I would be supporting women. {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{argh}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} but, I don't chalk it up to penis-envy. THAT is sexist, and it's what I meant about the narrow minded thinking that goes on. Because no one would say that a bad male musician has penis envy. geddy lee might, but that's a different story. And I don't know what her name is, but Ember Swift's bassist/cellist person is amazing.

i still think it would be funny as hell to pin that quote on dave and send him to the Michigan Womyns Music Festival.

"but, I don't chalk it up to penis-envy. THAT is sexist" sexist coming from a man. 51% of the population could get away with that statement. THAT is sexist. "Because no one would say that a bad male musician has penis envy." unless he were castrated. and, finally -- "so, it's not like a ton of people are listening to that stuff to begin with. to be a woman on top of that makes it difficult to get anywhere. unfortunately, you still have to depend on people to "get heard." It's not a matter of the big music man keeping women down...there's no market. Even outside of the mainstream, it's difficult to get resources you need if you are a woman. and those places that cater to women, do not embrace that sound. they just don't. as I said, there is no market...part of the problem is that women don't listen to that stuff." bingo. but i listen to that stuff. that's the stuff i think rocks. from now on, i'll try to keep blanket statements, sweeping indictments, and dramatic effect to a minimum. or i'll at least try to share only the ones that are in alignment with values of the more uppity folks here. what say we go bash some conservatives?

Did anyone see the clip of Triumph the Comedy Insult Dog with Bon Jovi? T: "So, I see you are going to be in a vampire movie." JBJ: "yeah" T: "Finally, a role that requires you to suck!"

Oh my! What did Bon Jovi say to that?

the lead singer of mecca normal is kind of like a female les claypool. anyhow. isn't dave frustrating? frustrating, yet somehow loveable?

Yea kind of like a cute puppy that keeps chewing your shoes.

amen, j!

shut it.

all right. i wanna thank whoever (myself, i s'pose) for reminding me to pull out nomeansno's "wrong" album and revisit that fucking monster. i'll make a prediction and say that there will never be a female band that could approach that in terms of sheer power alone. but, when you combine the power with the technical adeptness, the playful viciousness, the dread and the giddiness, the tension and release, which is what music is all about, there is no way there will ever be a female band who can do that like that . . . ever. frankly, i'm cool with that. women do so many other things so much better than their male counterparts. but, can they rock like that? never. deal with it.

I just wanted to add: Joan Jett Mia Zapata and Seven Year Bitch Babes in Toyland l7 Kim Gordon Daisy Chainsaw Suoix and the Banshees Tina Turner Janice Joplin Tori amos Ani Difranco Concrete Blond Fiona Apple Tina from the Talking Heads The Slits Shonen Knife Super Junky Monkey Le Tigre Bikini Kill Red Aunts PJ Harvey Bratmobile The Distillers My friends Ashley Baldrige, Anne Baldrige, Mavis and Mel Brown are all girls who is know and they all rock. Fuck you Dave, you ass.

bah. not even close.

i don't care how many girls who is know, nones of thems is know enough.

Suoix and the Banshees? i'm sure they're stoked about such an important endorsement. cha ching! i see royalties in skooter's future. illiterate fans endorsing retired, fat elvis, new-wave-has-beens are raking it in these days.

I think (and I am sure that I am about to become the crosshairs in the flame war) that rock and roll is all about testosterone and that when women rock (and there are women who utterly rock) it's borrowed testosterone. Yeah. Not all music that I love 'rocks'; most rock music that I love has at least one sad little penis in it somewhere. I am a testosterone junky. Gimme Black Sabbath over Joan Jett any damned day -- and I like Joan Jett quite well. And I'm going to make an exception here -- Tori Amos blows my fucking ears back -- and she's not even doing it with borrowed testosterone. Damn, she's something. But, I should disqualify myself for being at work on a Saturday listening to the JC Superstar concept album -- no, wait -- Ian Gillan...Deep Purple...oh yeah, that's fucking nostril deep in testosterone, that is. Yeah. Fuck this, this is a stupid conversation and I can't believe I fell into this thread and on dave's side, of all goddamned things. You guys: my old boss sniveled and cried and waved money and a title in front of my face and said she was in the shitter desperate and I said I'd come back to her team on a limited basis, and the money and title evaporated and the desperation was still there so I cam back and I started back on Tuesday and I've not left on since that day and I came in at 8:00 a.m. on a Saturday. It's supposedly only for three months. I may have made a bad choice. FYI: Ian Gillan really fucking rocks, yo.

I just read this: By Nate on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 10:49 am: "but there don't seem to be any who can do it while executing difficult, arpeggiatic, start-stop, time-signature-changing bass runs." what about geddy lee? she's one hot mamma. And I about flooded my workspace with shrieking laughter urine. Sometimes I forget how fucking funny and smart Nate is...and then my life goes to shit, and planets align and there's armageddon and then I remember and then the Baby Jesus makes it all the way it was before but leaves me the memories.

it's a totally stupid conversation.

skooter you just list female artists. so what. do they "rock"? what the fuck does that mean? sem...Kim Deal? rock? not quite. did she bring valuable elements to the pixies? you bet. does she grab my nuts and twist like some of the aforemention examples like Sabbath, Motorhead, Stooges? fuck no and you damn well know it. there's a different set of values being applied. just because tori amos doesnt "rock" doesnt mean she's any less valuable. just different. so stop being a wanker skooter. shit.

"what the fuck does that mean?" exactly...okay, so they rock...so what? I think dave. made it quite clear about what he was talking about, and for the most part he's probably right. Further, I think any female musician who can and wants to play like that will most likely be surrounded by men. besides skooter, I saw you and sem cover a bangles tune...so shush

daaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn bangles?

i say DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN

I think Dave Matthews Band has one of the best rhythm sections. And if you are not a fan of the bassist no one can argue Carter's (the drummer) talent and technique. Pleas don't dismiss this if you only know their radio hits. Delve a little deeper in their music.

wanker. generic college frat house wankers.

My three year old loves this and I cannot get it out of HEAD!!!

Gee loves that too.

And are you denying that we totally rocked out on that bangles tune?

I'm sure some of you male sorabijites had some of your very first wet dreams involving Susanna Hoff and I confess one of my favorite songs by them was If she knew what she wants.

susanna hoff? is she that mousey runt of a lead singer? nawwwww not me. my wet dreams involved alyssa milano in the Who's the Boss era. bangles sem? what were you thinking?

"my wet dreams involved alyssa milano in the Who's the Boss era." Amen brother patrick. The other one was darlene from roseanne...

We were appeasing our lead singer, who wouldn't leave us alone until we learned a Bangles tune. Luckily, the one she picked had only 6 chords in it. One of the other bands I was in covered Stryper. You know, everyone talks about three chord wonders, but if you stop to count, most pop songs have at least four, even Ramones tunes (like Blitzkrieg bop, for example). But you don't hear about four-chord wonders - why is that?

she's a lot cuter than susanna hoff too

I still mantian that all those on my list rock. To me. And I will defend each single choice if I have to. Lets kill this thread, because every time I look at it, I have to see the word "Creed". P.S....I learned a Yo La Tengo song today, what did you do? We also covered "Wonderwall", but it sounded like a Fugazi song. I still think Dave is wrong. Does Sem have a video of Subshine? If so, I have to have a copy of it.